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Possible new IPS

KhaosMuffins said:
On combos: How short do you guys want them? Currently the most I'm seeing is 9 seconds + super from one bar combos, and with undizzy how it is now you still get to have multiple paths to take in your combo options. I personally think the length in the beta is fine, but what exactly are you guys looking at for length?

On neutral: What are you guys looking for here? Of course assists make up a large part of the neutral game, but unlike what a lot of people like to think, the neutral game is more than just "Call a DP assist and run away if it's blocked" (look at videos that aren't just Dekillsage vs Duckator; look at OmniSScythe, for example). Also, Skullgirls is just really momentum-heavy with how combos and resets work. I don't think there's really a way to force more playing of the neutral game once someone gets a hit aside from proper teching, avoiding resets, pushblocking correctly to get out of pressure, etc.

I think combo length is pretty solid in beta atm.

On neutral, I'm looking for less emphasis on assists (a problem which you dramatically understate) to confirm. Here is a video in which one of the best solo players (KhaosMuffins) using arguably the single best solo character (MF) loses hardcore to Updo (you lost roughly 90% of your life both matches to updo confirms before being chipdeathed by Peacock... well the second match, updo put you in the reset mix up that took off most of your life).

The first game Sev vs Duck could be renamed to Updo vs Updo (vs home button). The most exciting part was Sev's solo Double.

The third game is admittedly much better (in fairness... neither had updo as Winnie leads with Filia).

I don't remember part 2, and I didn't watch it after part 1 today.

 
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Jason said:
Abel has terrible defensive tools. Once your in on him, its pretty easy to mix him up and rush him down. You just don't want to be up in his face when he's the one in control. Same with Makoto.
I don't mean that Makoto and Abel are great defensively, I mean that they are just scary to be next to mentally.

Ex Karakusa, crouching standing jab, ultra 2 and a few other buttons/things are decent to mash out as Mak, one mistake costs you.

Same with Abel, ex roll, ex cod, ex grab, and etc. makes being in his face for an extended period of time tricky.
 
Which Makoto are you guys talking about? SFIV Mak gets completely mauled by meaty grabs. That's what you do against her, you don't pressure, you meat grab and OS her stuff. They catch any of her options and recover in time for you to react block or punish her escapes. 3S Makoto is a whole different thing, and universal wake up parry, OS grab, fix everything that needed fix.

----

This thread... ¬¬'

Bring Flying Screen, let c.mk / s.hp xx super do 50% on equal ratios, make fixed (no custom anymore) assists super slow and with limited usage. There you go, apparently that would fix the problem for some. And if that's where the case, give someone XvSF Wolvie's divekick and make a height and weight specific 1-3f links off a strict TK motion. There, fixed SG: the game. xP

/joke

You may continue bickering peps.
 
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Beta undizzy is cool and all, but damn does it make going for resets weird with the stage three start. I would hope for some sort of indication when it's getting close to hit it's limit. (doesn't have to be 100% specific, but something would be nice) I'm cool with keeping track of what I used to start a chain with no real cue, but trying to do math problems on the fly to make sure I don't accidentally hit an extra button during a combo mess and up it all up kinda sucks.

Not sure about that 'Noone but Ms. Fortune can keep Cerebella out' statement... For example: Val's standing heavy kick alone makes for great AA against most her jumping stuff and usually let's you do the three hit chain that slides her into the opposite side of the screen. Heavy punch can stuff Titan Knuckle at most long ranges and HK for up close, plus pretty much every version of medium punch kills her armor...
 
Now, constructive impressions and opinions so far:

240 Undizzy keeps the combo variety even for every character. This will be forever a big plus for me.

Undizzy on Stage 3 thing: Some really fast (and therefore though to react and more like a guessing game) plus Air Throw resets (because you don't have much time to maneuver an air throw reset) are currently indeed very weak, since stage 3, specially for throws that start on Stage 2, are very weak. Sometimes you don't even have enough time to setup up your reset. "Grab xx Super? Sorry, you can't use j.lk to switch sides or anything." While other resets, specially grounded ones, you can maneuver a little bit to kill a tad bit time. Current undizzy decreases fast and will allow you to do a reasonable reset into a bigger or even full damage. Just tinker with it a bit more.

What would be possible solutions in my head: Throws take away Undizzy? -100? -75? I don't know. Undizzy triggering on stage 5 IN YOUR SECOND COMBO (if this is EVEN possible, I'm not sure) then maybe, yes. Otherwise, it doesn't sound like there is a simple solution that won't create other issues for the combo system.

I can see why Undizzy on stage 3 can be a tad annoying. I would be okay even with undizzy going back to 0 after every reset, but then again I'm from an era that if you had to do 4 optimal option openings on an opponent to kill him you were playing the wrong game. xP
 
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Spencer said:
On neutral, I'm looking for less emphasis on assists (a problem which you dramatically understate) to confirm.

This isn't much of a problem, it's just neutral game when you have invincible assists. Especially with the assist scaling now. I know it's 66%/90% on ch, but almost feel like it should be 66%/75% or 50/75. You just have to learn to play around it. I'm digging the Drama levels now. I feel like it's just right, maybe just a little bit short. Was it ever at 250? I think like that would be fine as well. The beta is really playing like the the game I imagined sg would be when it first came out now, which is fantastic
 
Dime_x said:
Everyone else though? Naw, you NEED updo or pillar to fight bella. Or double with like 5 meters. Barring that, you gonna get blown up. Though I don't know much about the squigly matchup but I'm pretty sure that clap and j.mp will kill squiglys j.hp or trade massively in Bella's favor... Though yeah that's theory fighter in squiglys case.
What?

Did you just claim that Peacock gets blown up by Bella?
 
Dime_x said:
I'll agree with fortune since fortune has a projectile that bites and incapacitates her opponent.

Everyone else though? Naw, you NEED updo or pillar to fight bella. Or double with like 5 meters. Barring that, you gonna get blown up. Though I don't know much about the squigly matchup but I'm pretty sure that clap and j.mp will kill squiglys j.hp or trade massively in Bella's favor... Though yeah that's theory fighter in squiglys case.

This is how you beat bella. You run circles around her, hit her once and reset her in the air until she dies. Updo kinda doesn't mean **** vs bella btw. Hairball and Hornet bomber are much better bella killers. imo anyways
KhaosMuffins said:
On combos: How short do you guys want them?
On neutral: What are you guys looking for here?

I care more about damage more than combo length. What I like about MDE is that for the most part I've been able to choose between going for max damage or resets. I can see why stage 5 burst is an issue(?) considering people can still do long combos -> reset -> short combo, and that takes forever but I'm not a fan of stage 3 bursts(considering the current combos in this build aren't long >_>) If people can get 7-8k damage with the entire cast(without an assist) then fine. Otherwise raise the undizzy so people can get 1 more chain, unless that's too long for you guys still.
Changing IPS wont change how some characters combo btw. As you can see big band isn't really doing much in his combos but they're taking a good amount of time to finish (painwheel does the same)

On Neutral: Unless you make updo, hornet bomber, cercopter, hairball and pillar absolute **** assists nothings going to change. Make combos scale on your assists doesn't mean anything either. I also don't see how a more reset based game somehow equates to more neutral being played. Bad players like ya boi over here are still gonna ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ right into assists, get hit and then reset twice and die without knowing what hit him. That's not neutral. What you guys want is more chances after being hit, which is fine, as long as you don't call it neutral.

TL;DR- I still think making doubles barrels light on fire would make the game more hype than these changes.
 
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scrubbyscum999 said:
Thus the combos are short and in my opinion boring.

All combos are boring. If there is a combo that you think is not boring, give it a few months and it will become boring. As evidence, I submit the "Dr. Doom TAC-Swag" combos of UMVC3. It was difficult to do, had lots of room for creativity and is easily the hypest-looking combo ever created in the history of fighting games. Also it's boring. It was hype for like 5 minutes and now it's a yawn-fest. Combos are essentially rhythm mini-games, and they get old really fast. I think it's prudent to keep them relatively short so that the end-game is not dominated by the most boring element of the game.

On combo length: Whenever I read that people are happy with the current combo length of the beta, I immediately assume that it is too lenient. Combos always get longer after the game has been out for a while. I think Mike should aim for "too short" to account for players breaking the limits later.
 
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Ain't nobody breakin' nothin'. You have to LEAVE OUT moves that would otherwise make sense for positioning just to finish a damn combo now.

Only thing that would break it is some counter hit glitch or something.
 
Mwisk said:
Which Makoto are you guys talking about? SFIV Mak gets completely mauled by meaty grabs. That's what you do against her, you don't pressure, you meat grab and OS her stuff. They catch any of her options and recover in time for you to react block or punish her escapes.
I'm really curious of this "Meatygrab and OS" Anti-Makoto tech that beats
- Backdash
- FocusBackdash
- Ex Karakusa
- Focustech
- NJ Axekick
- Fukiage
- Block
- Delay Crouchtech
All at the same time.

dekillsage said:
On Neutral: Unless you make updo, hornet bomber, cercopter, hairball and pillar absolute **** assists nothings going to change.
Would "Deals more damage, but flicks the opponent away rather than allowing full combos on hit" make Updo/Pillar/Fiber 'absolute shit'?

dekillsage said:
TL;DR- I still think making doubles barrels light on fire would make the game more hype than these changes.
This would definitely be the next step after Rainbow Palette to make Double a fun character
 
IsaVulpes said:
I'm really curious of this "Meatygrab and OS" Anti-Makoto tech that beats
- Backdash
- FocusBackdash
- Ex Karakusa
- Focustech
- NJ Axekick
- Fukiage
- Block
- Delay Crouchtech
All at the same time.

Sakura can do OS Grab/c.HP/stuff (usually ex tatsu, hp dp or ultra 1)

-FocusBackdash
-Ex Karakusa
-Focustech (what's this? assuming it starts with a focus) = Grab
-Fukiage
-Block

-NJ Axekick = c.hp hits
- Fukiage = sometimes it trades, if it does it combos into her tatsu/dp or ultra
- Delay Crouchtech = same as above.

-Backdash = ex tatsu / hp dp. this one varies a bit, works better near the corner.

Some other chars can do the same too (like Cammy), but in general, you can meaty throw Mak and afterwards react to the stuff she did if she wasn't grabbed out of what she was trying to do. The OS kinda looks something like this if you're pressuring her:

 
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Mwisk said:
-Focustech (what's this? assuming it starts with a focus)
It's where, I shit you not, you hit LP+LK+MP+MK and backdash on wakeup. I wish I was joking.
 
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ukyo_rulz said:
On combo length: Whenever I read that people are happy with the current combo length of the beta, I immediately assume that it is too lenient. Combos always get longer after the game has been out for a while. I think Mike should aim for "too short" to account for players breaking the limits later.

No one really broke anything in MDE, they just learned to optimize their damage. Combos have been about the same length since the beginning of MDE to now. If there somehow was a way to break the stun limit, it would be patched out like what Mike did with Peacock and Double's j.HK.
 
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Broken Loose said:
It's where, I shit you not, you hit LP+LK+MP+MK and backdash on wakeup. I wish I was joking.

Oh, I see. Lol, it's amazing the amount of stuff you can hide in an OS in that game. xP
 
IsaVulpes said:
Would "Deals more damage, but flicks the opponent away rather than allowing full combos on hit" make Updo/Pillar/Fiber 'absolute shit'?

Probably not. At the very least its main purpose would be to get someone off you, and not being a hey get off me but also let me combo you assist. People would also complain less and I could finally say Updo is overrated as hell without people getting mad at me. Preeeetty worth it for that alone if you ask me
chansub-global-emoticon-8eed21805f6217ce-27x29.png
 
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Mwisk said:
-Focustech (what's this? assuming it starts with a focus) = Grab
Focustech is pressing LP+MP+LK+MK.
Focus has priority over Throw, so if nothing happens you charge focus
Tech has priority over Focus, so if the opponent tried to throw you, you tech it

I'm aware that you have options to beat her options.
The point is YOU DO NOT HAVE AN OPTION THAT BEATS EVERYTHING SHE DOES.
I think Gouki can DFlip Palm OS Sweep and take out all her options thanks to safejump+armorbreak+longsweep,
but most characters need to make a solid read on Makoto to beat her wakeup.
And if you guessed wrong, you eat 500 Damage.

Makoto's wakeup isn't shit.

dekillsage said:
Probably not. At the very least its main purpose would be to get someone off you, and not being a hey get off me but also let me combo you assist.
So hey magic, we got a simple fix that gives us more point character neutral after all? Ah let me carry this to the Assist thread.
 
dekillsage said:
Probably not. At the very least its main purpose would be to get someone off you, and not being a hey get off me but also let me combo you assist.
I agree that this is a pretty good idea. Keep them super-cancelable since if you're gonna burn the meter you should get something out of it, but otherwise keep it true to the old school SF philosophy that DPs should be combo enders rather than starters.
 
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WarpedEcho said:
This isn't much of a problem, it's just neutral game when you have invincible assists. Especially with the assist scaling now. I know it's 66%/90% on ch, but almost feel like it should be 66%/75% or 50/75. You just have to learn to play around it. I'm digging the Drama levels now. I feel like it's just right, maybe just a little bit short. Was it ever at 250? I think like that would be fine as well. The beta is really playing like the the game I imagined sg would be when it first came out now, which is fantastic

I'd actually rather have it assist scaling be 100/50% on ch as I think assist ch is the real problem.
 
Spencer said:
I'd actually rather have it assist scaling be 100/50% on ch as I think assist ch is the real problem.

CH (Opponent was pressing buttons and got interrupted by your attack) having harsher assist scaling as opposed to a regular assist hit (opponent not pressing buttons at all) sounds silly in design.

The attacking player should be rewarded if anything for landing a CH ( In other games case it's usually increased damage, hitstun, etc) not penalized when a regular assist hit in contrast would gets away scott free on the scaling.

That said my preferred ratio would be 50%/80% but I digress since this isn't the appropriate thread to discuss in depth in regard of assist damage scaling.
 
ukyo_rulz said:
All combos are boring. If there is a combo that you think is not boring, give it a few months and it will become boring......

This. Combos temporarily transform a competitive multiplayer game into a one player game. Obviously they are usually necessary, and even SF2: WW had some beefy ones...I think Guile had a 4 hit combo that was 65% damage or something like that for example.
 
blufang said:
This. Combos temporarily transform a competitive multiplayer game into a one player game. Obviously they are usually necessary, and even SF2: WW had some beefy ones...I think Guile had a 4 hit combo that was 65% damage or something like that for example.

 
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dekillsage said:
This is how you beat bella. You run circles around her, hit her once and reset her in the air until she dies. Updo kinda doesn't mean **** vs bella btw. Hairball and Hornet bomber are much better bella killers. imo anyways.

Every character in sg dies to resets. Every character in sg dies to... Combos.

The game before this beta patch is first hitconfirm. First hitconfirm gives a huge chance to kill. Against Bella, it can be very hard to get that first hitconfirm.

As far as updo/pillar not doing great against Bella, my experiences against age are far different from what you write here. It's imho that bomber is weak(er) against Bella than updo and pillar.

Hornet bomber can be ducked, or easily jumped over. Updo and pillar can only really be baited via spacing or empty jumping, and empty jumping takes one of Bella's biggest strengths from her... Her crazy air priority.

I can't beat age when I use bomber, nearly as much as I can when I use pillar and updo... It isn't scientific I guess but to me the proof is in the results. When I have an updo Bella can't pressure me with her jump attacks for free. And that allows my painwheel to fly unmolested and get perfectly spaced j.mp and/or lvl 3 stingers into flight, off.

And with other character it's basically more of the same... Bomber doesn't stop rushdown nearly as well as updo and pillar... It's much better for going in, from what I've seen in my play and in others.
 
POS Industries said:
I agree that this is a pretty good idea. Keep them super-cancelable since if you're gonna burn the meter you should get something out of it, but otherwise keep it true to the old school SF philosophy that DPs should be combo enders rather than starters.
This! One of the things that irks me about any game is being able to convert off of reversals.
 
Number 13 said:
CH (Opponent was pressing buttons and got interrupted by your attack) having harsher assist scaling as opposed to a regular assist hit (opponent not pressing buttons at all) sounds silly in design.

The attacking player should be rewarded if anything for landing a CH ( In other games case it's usually increased damage, hitstun, etc) not penalized when a regular assist hit in contrast would gets away scott free on the scaling.

That said my preferred ratio would be 50%/80% but I digress since this isn't the appropriate thread to discuss in depth in regard of assist damage scaling.

I agree. I'm not actually advocating it. I'm just saying the problem is assist CH, not just raw assists (which are generally blocked). Double butt isn't a problem unless you are jumping in. Updo isn't a problem unless you are looking to hit, and so on.

I like that assists received a blanket nerf, I really do... but I think upping the CH amount puts us much closer to assists still being super dominate.
 
Dime_x said:
Against Bella, it can be very hard to get that first hitconfirm.

Hornet bomber can be ducked, or easily jumped over. Updo and pillar can only really be baited via spacing or empty jumping, and empty jumping takes one of Bella's biggest strengths from her... Her crazy air priority.
The problem with Bella is that it's even harder for HER to get that first hit when the opponent is dancing around her and effectively locking her out. This is why people generally rank Bella low on tier lists and such. Yeah she has God Hands when going air-to-air but... why go air-to-air with her when you can just avoid her or keep her from coming close. It's not like it's hopeless for her but she definitely has a harder time than most characters getting into the sweetspot.

ANYWAYS, back to being on topic....
For some people, a lot of fun in the game comes from how much freedom the combo system gives you. If you guys want shorter combos brought about by more restrictions, some of that freedom is lost. Just keep that in mind. I personally think the current beta balances both quite nicely, minus stage 3 undizzy, but that's just me.

I also miss the experiment where DP assists (or at least Updo) only knocked opponents away instead of knocking down. But eh. Assist scaling is nice.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
I also miss the experiment where DP assists (or at least Updo) only knocked opponents away instead of knocking down. But eh. Assist scaling is nice.

I was happy not knowing this because it is on my Christmas list. When was this? How did it work out? Why did it revert?
 
Spencer said:
I was happy not knowing this because it is on my Christmas list. When was this? How did it work out? Why did it revert?
1. 3 months ago
2. Some liked it, some didn't, but the change also came with HP Updo doing 3 hits as an assist so it was a DP + Lockdown assist which was AMAZING.
3. I forget. Things changed so that updo only got multiple hits when Filia used it as a point character. The knockdown came back, though because... yeah, I forget.

Hah, found it. It's in this archive. You'd still get the knockdown if all hits connected but not if Updo connected at the peak. http://www.twitch.tv/duckator/b/447967418?t=2h38m
 
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Removing knockdown off of uppercut assists would be a really good idea, imo. It would also mean that Ms Fortune would get played more since it changes her status from "Point character with that one assist that's an uppecut but it doesn't knock down into full combo so who cares" to "Character that also has an uppercut assist".
 
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ClarenceMage said:
Removing knockdown off of uppercut assists would be a really good idea, imo. It would also mean that Ms Fortune would get played more since it changes her status from "Point character with that one assist that's an uppecut but it doesn't knock down into full combo so who cares" to "Character that also has an uppercut assist".
It also means that Squigly getting a knockdown off her charged DP would actually be something special that's worth the trouble of using her stances to power it up.
 
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Yep, which is why I've been suggesting it for sooooo long. It really gives nothing of value to the game, yet takes away much value at the same time.

Sg would be a great game with no knockdown followups to invincible assists.
 
Did MvC2 have uppercut assists that gave a hard knockdown and guaranteed a combo afterwards? I'm supportive of nerfing Updo and Napalm Pillar, but then again I'm a scumbag Fortune player. lel
 
How come no one has mentioned Moves hitstun/properties yet?

I feel the combo system in SG (without considering undizzy/ IPS) is just way too open and easy to exploit, most special moves allow chains to restart and loop around as long as a normal in the string is changed to not trigger IPS.

I wonder why Mike Z hasnt considered changing the hitstun in special moves and cancel properties in normals to limit combo extention capabilities they usually allow, i feel hes relying on Undizzy too much to prevent rebalancing the rosters normals and specials properties/hitstun which are considerably harder to balance.

The game right now feels like its giving us F1 Cars to race with but its making us race in Go Kart tracks. Its both confusing and counter intuitive, You want to go fast but you cant because the tracks are too small. If the cars were toned down to be Go Karts as well, you would lose speed dramatically but the car would feel apropiate for the tracks its racing on.

Just my Opinion of course but i believe moves hitstun and properties is a good topic to tackle on, because the way things are right now, people will keep finding ways to go around undizzy to a certain point and keep the long combos/ 2 hits your dead flow going.
 
Vladislav_Paizis said:
Did MvC2 have uppercut assists that gave a hard knockdown and guaranteed a combo afterwards? I'm supportive of nerfing Updo and Napalm Pillar, but then again I'm a scumbag Fortune player. lel
Yes and no. Stuff like Captain Corridor (probably our Pillar equivalent) didn't knock them down and worked more like Squigly's uncharged DP where it just sort of threw them off you. Psy-Blade (AKA Updo before Updo) does actually knockdown and works more like the reversal assists we have in SG. That said, you can ground tech fairly quickly out of it.
 
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Vladislav_Paizis said:
Did MvC2 have uppercut assists that gave a hard knockdown and guaranteed a combo afterwards? I'm supportive of nerfing Updo and Napalm Pillar, but then again I'm a scumbag Fortune player. lel


Ken, cyke, capcom, and Jim all gave recoverable before the ground Gtfo.
Psylocke was the only one that gave otg follow ups, hence why msp is arguably the best team in the game.

Iirc
 
Vladislav_Paizis said:
I'm supportive of nerfing Updo and Napalm Pillar, but then again I'm a scumbag Fortune player. lel

Yes. All Furtune players are scum. All of us.

I also like how this topic has completely changed from combos to assist DPs into full combos. Lel what is next? Lockdown assists!??!?!?!? *looks around* do eet.

P.S. Lel.
 
@Erreip199 The issue there is accesibility. A lot of the community (which we very much want to keep) is made up of people that aren't particularly good at pulling off combos, making them harder to pull off only limits things even more. Additionally, making it harder to combo anything into anything else (exaggeration, of course, but most things in SG can be combod from) limits creativity more than the likes of IPS or Undizzy. That's also something we want to keep intact, and is the main reason (from what I can tell) that people are against making Undizzy or IPS stricter. That's why Isa keeps posting his Parasoul combo videos to show that her combos can still be creative under the current system.

I would encourage people that play other characters and are good/better than me at making combos to post stuff too -be that combo videos or combo notation with damage and meter info- so everyone (including Mike) can see what's possible under the current system and see where people have found restrictions in doing what they want to do.
 
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