Valentine Character Guide

Thanks for doing this. We needed a guide.

Minor note, I have noticed that painwheel is actually pretty problematic for her due to her lack of an anti-air at that height, that may be worth mentioning.

Prototype said:

lack of an anti-air at that height,

Use more air-to-airs, Valentine's air-to-air game is brilliant and you should be using that a lot instead of relying on ground-to-air anti-airs. Valentine's best vertical ground-to-air anti-air, s.MP, is very useful against other characters but requires far too much precision vs Painwheel to use reliably. However, if you use more Air-to-airs like j.HK or j.MK in conjunction with your air movement, Painwheel is not that problematic. At worst it's fair for Valentine. Besides, you're using Val+Filia, you already have Updo to smack painwheel out of the air.

ClarenceMage said:

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I actually just had this discussion with some people over in the matchup/tier thread. Learned a lot about the people who frequent that thread but el taluda posted a write up in it that details the match as I often find it playing out and he agrees in leans in painwheel's favor. Jump mk is often just useless against really capable painwheels. I played a bunch at CEO this weekend and I would be put in the dirt if I touched that button. with a real unlfly now that just does not hold up like it might have in the past. But I have never tried using s.mp against airborne opponents but that seems pretty scary to attempt given assists and stuff with how long it recovers. If broken loose ever posts those matches I will try to link me playing them to show what I mean.

As long as it's countering with prescription and not countervenom, countering things with up to 3 hits of limited armor is fine. Against SSJ you can still do c.mp to break the armor. If you're good at timing only first two hits of c.mp -> c.hp, you can still get your +100 undizzy and 1425 CH damage since armored hits don't count to the combo meter.

Countervenom... yeah you're kinda fucked.

You can grab countered armor moves anytime, or you can just load a vial, hit them once and counter again, if you have the meter

c.mp consistently kills SSJ unless you cancel it too early into c.hp or whatever so it only does 1 hit. However, they can mash out DHC since you still have to get through all the hits of armor. Also after landing countervenom on SSJ/painwheel lvl3/Bella lvl3 you still have time to block after the hit. So they're still punishable and got stuck with the lvl3 poison, but you lose out on most of the damage from the injection.
And currently in beta when countering sekhmet with a vial loaded, you can combo countervenom into a grab and get +30 undizzy (the hit from the grab itself takes off -20 from the +50).

Better yet if they want to know more in-depth about the lvl2 counter, just send them to my "Val's lvl2 super and you" thread.

Mike fixed the super counter w/ vial. Breaks armor now.

That fix is currently only in beta now.

also, I looked at the guide and the combo and reset sections use "ADF" as notation for air dash cancel without explaining what it means. What does the F stand for?
I've seen "adc" or "ad" as notation, but I think it's only ash and clarencemage that use "adf" in the val combo thread. Is that like an Aussie thing?

You can do specials out of her backdash, just not normals.

Fedora_Ninja said:

That fix is currently only in beta now.

also, I looked at the guide and the combo and reset sections use "ADF" as notation for air dash cancel without explaining what it means. What does the F stand for?
I've seen "adc" or "ad" as notation, but I think it's only ash and clarencemage that use "adf" in the val combo thread. Is that like an Aussie thing?

I use "adf" because it's "airdash forward". "adb" would be airdash back, which I use when I write down certain burst bait setups.

Been trying to learn Val (for the ninth time) and got kind of a asinine question.

Val is described as being mostly a rushdown oriented character but, the guide says "her movement is more suited towards defensive play" and while glancing the tier discussion topic, I've seen a lot of observations about Val being more effective when the player goes "lame" with her.
That said, my question is: what's the defensive Val game plan? Bearing in mind she fits the rushdown archetype and IIRC one of her major weaknesses is the lack of good reversals (something that assists can circumvent), I didn't think she could be played effectively in any way besides constant pressure.
Personally, I just can't get the hang of rushdown types so I'm interested in this alternate method.

Apologies in advance for such a vague question.

Thanks. (__)

I have not found very much success with the lame val. Also be very cautious in tier discussion there are a lot of people that post things which are not true. Aside from that what i believe they mean is to poke with the assist while covering it with crosses. Let the assist score the actual hit then convert or punish their attempt to punish the assist.

Balder said:

That said, my question is: what's the defensive Val game plan?

Okay, so what you want to do is a bunch of things

1. Bait/circumvent their DP assist, so that you have no chance of getting knocked out of the air by one
2. Live in the zones where your opponent can't really do shit to you, and most of that involves being close to the cieling, but use your own judgement here since it varies vs person and matchup. If you do that, then you can coax your opponent to overextend, or put themselves in a situation where they can't anti-air you for shit(directly ontop for most characters) or without good timing, or set up an assist crossup with jump, double jump, assist + airdashforward(+j.MK for extra momentum is what I like to do), or whatever other advantageous-for-your-assist situation you can come up with.
3. Pretty much you are trying to whiff punish a lot with Val, but not just "they did an attack, they are going to get hit" but also whiff punishing by taking advantage of their recovery to get yourself into a position that your opponent hates, like slowly pushing them to the corner, or crossing them over when your back is to the wall so that you force them to chase you down another screen length.

Once you DO get in, going ham and doing monster pressure is nice and feels nice, but at some point, you are going to go TOO ham and get bopped by a DP assist, reversal super, or some shit. Playing lame and taking your pressure situations from neutral can limit the risk you take when rushing someone down in their face, and Valentine's GREAT neutral game buttons(With special mentions to j.HK to occupy and deny space like a stop sign, j.MP to screw up pushblocking defense, j.LK as an asshole crossup move that also screws up pushblocking, and j.HP which has a brilliant crossup hitbox+general good move for jumping in with) and movement allows her to play like this, in conjunction with positioning herself around assists.

Besides, Val actually can't really do threatening constant pressure like Filia or Ms Fortune, because her instant airdash is significantly slower (unless you do Backdash Airdash, then it's only just slightly slower), and her c.LK is MINUS on block. Her c.LK c.LK is even on block however, but her fastest normal is 6 frame so you perfectly timed c.LPs from you + anyone with a 5f jab = you get hit. If you want legitimate hamyolo unending airdash pressure of the gods, play Filia or Fortune.

The big thing about Filia and Ms Fortune's constant pressure is that even if you block their low, they're still plus, meaning that s.LP c.LK or c.LP c.LK, or IAD j.HP c.LK is all a way for you to have to deal with even more pressure/forced to block low/be forced to pushblock to get them to gtfo even after you block their frametrap hitconfirm into a low.

Valentine's -4 on block c.LK forces you to commit to an extra button press(extra c.LK, assist) if you want to maintain legitimate pressure without making the bet that your opponent won't press a button because OF COURSE you're going to follow up with something after the c.LK.

Prototype said:

Aside from that what i believe they mean is to poke with the assist while covering it with crosses. Let the assist score the actual hit then convert or punish their attempt to punish the assist.

Thinking a bit more on the matter, I'm starting to see how "Lame Val" theoretically works - get the assist to score/open and capitalize on that. She has arguably the best mobility in the game so it makes sense she can make the best out of those situations. #Slowpoke

ClarenceMage said:

2. Live in the zones where your opponent can't really do shit to you, and most of that involves being close to the ceiling

Can't recall if it's a general agreement but, from what I gathered, it seems that in this game staying airborne is the optimal position. (Which is pretty much what I'm not doing besides playing Whack-a-Mole with Para's j.HP... -_-" )

*frame data*

Not questioning the data but seems strange that Val has Lows with minus on block, while Fortune's and Filia's are plus.
Also explains why whenever I fight Fi/Fo/Fu (dunno if Fukua shares Filia's frame data though), I get beat out of any attempt at retaliation.

If you want legitimate hamyolo unending airdash pressure of the gods, play Filia or Fortune.

Like I said, I really don't work well with rushdown types hence why I'm trying to see if I can make Val work another way. I don't even understand those characters at the most basic level; sounds weird especially with Filia who's meant to be the beginner-friendly character but I simply can't (it is a thing I love about the game, though; how every character plays legitimately different).


Much obliged for the pointers and food for thought. Now to grind her BNB a few more hundred times until I get it consistently.

I'm having trouble with the core combo at the 'j.lk j.mp' point. Doing j.lp j,mp j.hk leaves me too low for the j.mp to come out.
Any tips?

ashxu said:

Well her entire strength is to get you into the corner or a situation where she can stack on the pressure and just keep throwing mix ups at you so if that's not your type of play style then you may want to pick another character.

Fukua's frame data is very different from filia. Fi's st.mp +8 Fu's is -4. Just to get a scope of the difference. When i try new characters i always play solo online, i know it's bad for me but sg characters seem so deep i feel i won't learn properly unless I'm solo. But with the bait and punish you will need to reset fairly often, her damage is too low not to.

Balder said:

Been trying to learn Val (for the ninth time) and got kind of a asinine question.

Val is described as being mostly a rushdown oriented character but, the guide says "her movement is more suited towards defensive play" and while glancing the tier discussion topic, I've seen a lot of observations about Val being more effective when the player goes "lame" with her.
That said, my question is: what's the defensive Val game plan? Bearing in mind she fits the rushdown archetype and IIRC one of her major weaknesses is the lack of good reversals (something that assists can circumvent), I didn't think she could be played effectively in any way besides constant pressure.
Personally, I just can't get the hang of rushdown types so I'm interested in this alternate method.

Apologies in advance for such a vague question.

Thanks. (__)

The way I would put it, is:

Val's GOAL is pressure, offensive momentum.

You want to be in, use your + on block normals well, keep them locked down with assists, bait them into doing stupid stuff etc.



Val's METHOD is spacing.

You want to stay at about round start distance and try to coax your opponent into bad positions. Val is adept at always being above her opponents and her normals work especially well from there, allowing her to achieve her GOAL. Basically the general flow of Valentine is:

1. Start at neutral > you excel here, try to stay at arm's reach, in the air and pushing the opponent back, when you find an opening or force the opponent into the corner>
2. Get on top of them > usually by baiting an assist then abusing their lack of options or just by outprioritising them with something like your j.HK. Could also be a crossup j.HP after coaxing them close to you >
3. Pressure into an opening > Val has excellent pressure, but she can't stick to you the same way as Fortune or even Fillia can, so you need to have the immediate goal of mixing your opponent up. A good example is use 2LP for frame advantage then 2LK / throw mixup into full combo. If you are pushed out and didn't lock them down with assist, go back to 1, you excel at neutral so it isn't a huge loss. >
4. YOU REACHED THE GOAL > after getting your first opening you can generally keep your offensive momentum going. Make good use of assists to stay in, counter call your opponents defensive calls and bait out reversal options. Although Valentine isn't quite as oppressive here as some characters can be (unless you are in the corner) she doesn't hate being pushed back into neutral as much as those characters do.


Yes, flowcharts are bad, but this might explain how I see Valentine playing.

Im new to skull girls and well fighting game in general and i was realing your guide for beginner combos and i was wondering what ADF means. also is there less jumpy valentine combos for a new player to use???

ClarenceMage said:

whiff punishing by taking advantage of their recovery to get yourself into a position that your opponent hates

QFT

I remember finding this guide a while ago and jotting down some notes. It's been really helpful and I'd like to thank you for that. While I've come up with combos largely on my own, it's good to know how each move works to better things overall.

Couple things that could stand to be mentioned:

• Synergies that allow for vial loads; cHP + Updo/Pillar x Vial, sHKx2 + Bomber/Copter/Excella/ATrain x Vial
• Cross/Syringe allowing for double-jump links
• Beta Bypass allowing for double-jump/adc links
• beta sMK working better as a lockdown assist than before with the hitbox expansion

I guess you can compare it to Squigly's c.hp in terms of momentum, but hitting mid.