Valentine Tech Thread: Small/Big Tips & Strategy YOU Notice?

I'm by no means an expert on valentine, but I've got a few tricks I've discovered or seen others use that might be useful to some people here.

First off, pretty basic, but if your launcher gets blocked (c.hp) you can cancel into ↓↘→+lp (dead cross or vial throw) or ↓↘→+lk (savage bypass). Both cancels are very slightly frame negative (looks like 1-2 frames) but if you block right away after, it should make a blocked c.hp much much less punishable.

Another fairly basic thing, but you can cancel air ↓↘→+k (savage bypass any strength) into ↓↘→+pp (air scalpel super) just before you get to the opponent or after you pass to their other side (depending on how you time the scalpel super, you can have it cross up or not). Its pretty useful for getting in on zoning peacocks or parasouls, and you can follow up the scalpel super if it connects with IAD j.hp into a combo.

A pretty easy air cross-up reset that works on all characters is doing j.mk (1 hit) j.hp IAD j.lk. after the j.lk, val will fall under the opponent and cross them up. You land and recover first, so you can then start another combo.

A little mindgame trick you can do after landing a ground throw is to s.lp (1 hit) as they're sinking to the ground and then follow it up with reset throw. Most people wont be trying to tech a throw right after one, but if you expect your opponent is mashing throw tech, you can just jump right after the s.lp to avoid their throw and then punish will a full unscaled combo.

Another decent throw reset is canceling s.hk (the IV pole swinging attack) after the 1st or 2nd hit into the ↓↙←+LP+LK command throw. The timing works out so you'll beat any normals and most the reversal supers that I tested (not doubles swagwagon though).

The last trick I have is whenever a new character is jumping into the screen after a snap-back or character kill, you can start dashing before they come in, call an assist, and keep dashing so you end up on the other side of where they will jump in. The assist will come out from the side you started on, so it makes for some great cross-ups.

There was a valentine earlier on salty cupcakes that did 2 pretty sick cross up set ups that I'm going to look for.

One thing I do want to say though is that anyone who knows about Val's j.lk will never get tricked by that cross under, because it is very difficult to make it ambiguous. I've only seen 1 set up that made it a fake cross up and that was in the corner. The best cross ups are the ones that force a 50/50. I'm gonna make a video of a few ambiguous set ups within the next few weeks. I by no means have exhausted the possibility of set ups, I've only been playing val for like 150 hours, so I'm happy to learn.

Camail said:

There was a valentine earlier on salty cupcakes that did 2 pretty sick cross up set ups that I'm going to look for.

One thing I do want to say though is that anyone who knows about Val's j.lk will never get tricked by that cross under, because it is very difficult to make it ambiguous. I've only seen 1 set up that made it a fake cross up and that was in the corner. The best cross ups are the ones that force a 50/50. I'm gonna make a video of a few ambiguous set ups within the next few weeks. I by no means have exhausted the possibility of set ups, I've only been playing val for like 150 hours, so I'm happy to learn.

I've been able to do a projectile throw that hits high up and does a double cross-up

Alright I've been playing around with a weird cross up that in principle can be used in many other ways. Here are the raw inputs, and I'll explain a bit about the reset after:

cr.hp, j.hp, AD, j.mp(3), j.hk, j.lp, j.mp(3), j.hp AD, (crossup reset) j.hp

The "j.hp AD" is intentionally missing a comma, because you actually cancel the start up of the j.hp before it ever comes out. The first j.hp serves two purposes. It cancels the j.mp and it also lowers val's body. If done correctly you can get a very fluid and difficult to detect crossup that re-stands the opponent. I'll put up a video later. I'm kinda sick so I don't want to endure the effort of making one right now.

The principle behind this though is really exciting. Each normal in a chain has different movement properties, so the start up of each move can be used to position you in more places than an american reset would. In this example if you were to AD after he j.mp you would overshoot your target because you are so close. If you cancel with a j.hp then airdash you are much lower and a bit farther away, this works perfectly with val's angled AD. There are so many more variations of this that not only change where val is but also change were your opponent is. If you cancel a j.mk(1) into a j.hp AD you can lower your own body and move the opponent slightly forward.

EDIT: The heavier characters won't get crossed up by cancelling the j.hp, but it did work with the j.mk. I'm not entirely sure why but it obviously has to do with them falling faster and/or not being launched as high.

Also I tested it out in a match, it was against someone really bad, but I was able to do it 5 times in a row and he was mashing quite a few normals. The important lesson here is that now I know that this crossup won't get stuffed by most normals. Further testing is required.

So I erroneously placed this in an outside thread earlier, rather than this conveniently consolidated tech thread. Thus, forgive the double post, but it belongs here, as for consolidation and all that good stuff:
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Heya folks,

I just uploaded this a little while ago, but it's an idea that I'd been exploring with Valentine for a little while.
So you're probably all familiar with her really awesome hit-boxes that cause her to air-combo like the ninja she is. So that brings me to the scenario that lead to this exploration:

So you're in the corner, and the opponent would surely like to keep you there. Now, you'd like to fight your way out, but not only that- you'd like to put them in the corner so you can pressure 'em there. There's a million ways that scenario could play out: back throw, assist call, jumping, well timed dash, combo-ing them to the opposite corner. BUT, is there any way you can put them in YOUR corner off of a hit? So, I set out to find ways to accomplish that. Check it out!

-tekkaxe

It's not sped up, lol. He didn't provide the inputs but if you're trying to learn a combo you do it in parts, don't try to memorize the whole thing at once.

tekkaxe said:

Corner swap tech

That's a really good find, normally I would just go for a reset midscreen or just do the full corner to corner combo.

This is more stylish though.

This burst-bait never ceases to amuse me.

Dohnut V.2 said:

This burst-bait never ceases to amuse me.

Double: Get off me!
Valentine: Okay troll.jpeg

I think I came up with something here:

Whatever ground chain>cr.HP>j.HP>IAD>j.MP>j.HP>land>jump forward> j.HK

The tip of the corpse's foot on the j.HK locks them in the air (this is why you jump forward instead of neutral or IADing it) so you can continue the pressure midscreen (you can airdash after it on block, hit, whiff, whatever), and if it hits them, you could get lucky and start another unscaled combo by air dashing in with another j.HP. Sounds and looks gimmicky but it works both ways (it hits, basically a straight up reset, they block it, you're still all up on them because you saved your airdash to keep coming in on them even if they air pushblock). I wouldn't recommend it in the corner though: I see this tech as strictly used for midscreen pressure.

@Nuuance & OmniSScythe: Thanks, folks! Glad you enjoyed it!

Here's another vid. Unfortunately, I didn't annotate the combos, but I did turn on input display, so hopefully that helps. The point of this second vid is just to show that theres something that works against every member of the cast, though some options are much more tricky than others. And while not always the most practical choice, it's nice to know Val can drop you prettymuch wherever she wants:


Enjoy,
-Tekkaxe

Camail said:

Also I tested it out in a match, it was against someone really bad, but I was able to do it 5 times in a row and he was mashing quite a few normals. The important lesson here is that now I know that this crossup won't get stuffed by most normals. Further testing is required.

Was it me lol?

No it was in a lobby against scrubs. Definitely not someone who plays fighting games regularly.

1.) after launcher do an immediate j.lp> delayed j.hp for a crossup
2.) on filia, peacock, and painwheel after launcher a j.lp>j.mp(2-3 hits)>j.hp will cross them up but the trajectory will knock them over you. so far in my opinion it's the best fake crossup especially since a simple walk forward after the j.hp turns it to an actual crossup.
3.) anytime your pressuring your opponent with an airdash into j.mp you can do a j.hp to fast fall to the ground and grab instantly or go for a low whichever you prefer.
4.) speaking of fast fall, after launcher do j.lp>j.mp>j.hp airdash j.mk(1 hit)> j.hp for a fast fall reset where you can proceed to high/low/throw
5.) in the corner you can get a grab reset off of s.mp>s.mp
6.) in the corner after an air loop (ex. j.hp airdash j.mp>j.hp land j.lp blah blah into shuriken) when you throw the shuriken you can go for a low or throw or high reset.
7.) j.hk(1st hit) causes little hitstun so airdash cancel into grab reset is pretty common.
8.) in the corner during an aircombo if you do j.hk(both hits) into dead cross, you can airdash before both you and your opponent hit the ground and grab.
9.) doing reset number 8 instead if you use a poison and instead of airdashing you double jump, you can get an overhead reset that too many people fall for.
10.) against pro players who assume your iad j.hp will crossup just do lk.savage bypass right before you cross over
11.) in the corner(well if you want to get the s.hk in there it's corner only although you can dash forward) ground combo into s.hk>s.hk>poison you can go for low/throw (maybe high although I never tried)
12.) ground string into mortuary drop which can be mashed out of so going for mortuary>flatliner/counter super is a good option if you have good reads. if blocked or jumped well then your screwed so have good reads.
13.) j.lk>j.mp>j.mk airdash j.lp>j.mk crosses under and may be mash proof still not sure no one mashes it.
14.) I have a number 14 but I can't remember so I'll get back to this later.

Matchups
Peacock: Against the better peacocks try to avoid full screen savage bypass as it's kinda predictable and can be stomped by a hk.bomb or completely avoided by a teleport. Smart peacocks will also hold a item drop to catch your savage bypass>scalpel toss. Rely on dashing, blocking,and jumping until you're in mk.savage bypass range at least. From there you can iad something if peacock stays on the ground. If they start jumping you have the better air normals to catch any air attack peacock does but most of the time they up back so just jump grab. Always read teleports but be careful of teleport>argus agony. The main reason however for being in mk.savage bypass range is because most don't realize they're in danger of anything in that position. iad goes high enough to avoid; s.hp, lk.bomb, mk.bomb, and go low enough to not get hit by hk.bomb. Also if you can tiger knee a mk.savage bypass to avoid the ground and air projectiles you can always catch the start up or recovery of peacock's attacks. hk.savage bypass has a bit of slow start up that's why I don't suggest it unless the Peacock isn't looking for it.

Filia: s.hk can catch filia's iad, as well as cr.mp but not as much range but faster start up. If the iad pressure already started then lp out of it. be careful of updos. you have better air normals so air to air you win if you play your cards right. no reckless savage bypasses unless the filia player is not looking for it or has no idea what dp is.

Parasoul: watch for napalm pillar. scalpel super beats motor brigade but if your up close just jump. Parasoul will do lots of resets so flatliner or counter super out. double jump or airdash or scalpel super her vortex( her j.lp>j.lk>j.mp). Don't challenge her air normals with your own as her j.lp is too good. instead anti air her with like s.hk or whatever. You can safely get in on Parasoul zoning with air savage bypass.

Fortune: watch for head, fiber upper. her air normals are really good so might not be wise to go air to air ( no fortune has beat my val air normals with their own but they can because I tried it). that's kinda it.

Cerebella: don't get grabbed and don't get slapped with j.mp. armor gets beat with s.mp. avoid yolo lvl3

Painwheel: wreck her or die. You potentially have the advantage especially with savage bypass(don't be too predictable though). Painwheel has slow air normals and slow pressure so don't get hit and use your many multi hit attacks like s.mp and j.mp. This matchup is not hard

Double: idk uh normal valentine stuff. avoid getting hit by bandwagon and block cat heads. careful of lk.hornet bomber. savage bypass past zoning use scalpel or flatliner if you were baited into it. This matchup isn't hard

Squigly: j.hp beats all your air options. daisy pusher can catch your airdash pressure. pretty much it

Ummm squigly's j.hp is really easy to stuff with j.hk, just do it at the right angle. Also Parasoul's j.hp is way better than her j.lp so that's more important to avoid. And fortunes air normals are really bad because she doesn't have disjointed hit boxes.

You can use the slow start up of the j.hp to fast fall from pretty much any j.x and catch them by surprise, but by far the fastest of the falls is doing a j.mk(1), j.hp. This is a pretty good mix up because j.mk(2), j.hp AD, j.hp works as a good cross up and keeps your opponent on their feet because the timing is so weird. And an update for the kara dash (I'm gonna see if the name sticks) tech: you can do it off of the pulsr combo as well so its probably gonna be an almost universal thing. You can make yourself fall pretty quickly during the start up frames of j.hp so the applications are far reaching while valentine has you in the air. Honestly this can probably be done with almost every character with an air dash in some shape or form.

I swear I'm going to compile these small things into a video one day but that requires more editing than I have. I might end up poking around some school computers to see if they have any real editing programs, because I want to make this thing not look like shit.

Camail said:

Ummm squigly's j.hp is really easy to stuff with j.hk, just do it at the right angle. Also Parasoul's j.hp is way better than her j.lp so that's more important to avoid. And fortunes air normals are really bad because she doesn't have disjointed hit boxes.

Sorry if I'm misleading I'm just going based on experience. Like the fortune air normals I beat every valentine I face in the air so I just assumed, but every character can beat the other in the air it's just a matter of when you time your attack and which one you use. Idk what parasouls you face but j.lp is a goto option for us because of its quick startup and its active frames. For a Filia player or any person who wants to jump or iad, parasouls j.lp is a nightmare for them. j.hp is good too but I've never seen a parasoul dominate because they do a lot of j.hp. only those who use j.lp>j.hp or j.lp>j.hk.

Fortune air normals are objectively worse, there are more situations where Valentine beats out fortune than the opposite. And Squigly's j.hp has a hitbox on Leviathan's head and the start up is really long so its actually pretty easy to stuff it. Of course there will be certain specific angles where these two characters will beat out Valentine, but the point of comparing is to see if one character has more angles than the other, and given the respective hitboxes and start up of each characters best air normal Valentine wins out.

This is probably already well known but you can slip in an EKG Flatliner in the middle of Peacock's Argus Agony if it's raw (and Peacock players LOVE spamming that super)

After the laser beam you have a small window to start up an EKG Flatliner and it will hit just as the bullet salvo comes out. It's easier to do if you're closer to Peacock but it works if you're on opposite sides of the screen. You might want to start the QCF motion as the laser is still there to get it in time though.

Open with Hairball assist+Scalpels. If they aren't immediately super jumping forward, or are teleporting as peacock, then they have to block hairball and you have momentum at the cost of a meter.

ClarenceMage said:

Open with Hairball assist+Scalpels. If they aren't immediately super jumping forward, or are teleporting as peacock, then they have to block hairball and you have momentum at the cost of a meter.

IMPORTANT NOTE - you can pbgc into a reversal to at least punish filia in this setup and possibly val too if you rush in (of course this doesn't apply to everyone as much but you get the idea) It's a great setup but not completely free if your opponent is on point. Also I'm pretty sure you can chicken block this and additionally since you already called filia pressuring just after filia is blocked may mean that you are more susceptible to being pushblocked away

ClarenceMage said:

Open with Hairball assist+Scalpels. If they aren't immediately super jumping forward, or are teleporting as peacock, then they have to block hairball and you have momentum at the cost of a meter.

I think I remember dynamo beating this on reaction.

I barely remember what happened in that exchange since it was a clusterfuck, but I think the situation was reset to neutral due to a number of things that might've happened -

1. If you called doublebutt, I think I was knocked out of Dynamo range and then you were hit by hairball
2. Dynamo ate both fillia and valentine, but because hitbox shenanigans Dynamo kept Fillia in and Valentine was knocked out
3. Somehow Cerebella was knocked out of dynamo and I have no idea how

lets test this stuff out again soon

Nuuance said:

I was messing with Scawtch earlier today and i found you can load a vial and cancel it at ANY TIME into EKG Flatliner :) veryyyyyyyy tricky and fun to do when you have meter and load a vial safely.D

This gives your opponent a million years to jump up out of EKG range, letting them come down on you with any jumping move ever. The only purpose I could see this is for super risky bait with standing normal on block->vial prep->EKG on twitch reaction, but that's FAR too risky.

You could always use her counter, (or really any other super) plus if you actually load it you get instant level 3 poison too.

Speaking of poison, is hitstop poison useful anymore? We don't need it for combos, what else is it used for?

I still like it just as a projectile to toss out, like if both people call assists at the same time and you get one of those clusters where everything hits everything and both people back off to neutral, I'll load one up and then throw it in footsies or as a jump in just kind of as a why not, if it hits you can confirm from nearly fullscreen and if not you get a tiny bit of chip and continue on as normal.

Camail said:

Speaking of poison, is hitstop poison useful anymore? We don't need it for combos, what else is it used for?

You use it for easier corner push if you're midscreen.

Has anyone experimented with PBGC counter since that buff awhile ago? That seems like a cool thing to do but I've never tried it.

Here is the reset video I was talking about

Edit 1: I just realized I should have put this in the reset thread, hopefully a mod can put it in the right spot

MOD EDIT: Done.

Just gonna leave this here in hopes that some better Val player can do it better and create something crazy with it.

Edit: was planning on annotating minor details, but youtube wants to act fugly.

Here's an entire burst bait combo string and a dhc reset into 360 grab (for you rare Val/Bella players out there).



them disjointed hitboxes.