Noob about to quit SG for good. (how long till "git gud"?)

Slap said:

I sort of have another question that I feel is related to the thread topic.

How can you tell if you're getting good? I can touch the fightstick and know a combo or two, but I feel like I'm spinning my wheels while I'm getting my face stomped in by people who've discovered the secret to learning the game.

There's no real secret to getting good. The closest thing is the universal secret of all fighting games, rts, and strategy in general:

It all comes down to rock paper scissors.

Other than that practice and experiment with different tactics and techniques, and try to learn something new whenever you can.

As a sidenote, I feel it should be mentioned:
Combo length has nothing to do with skill.

I often see new players get intimidated by seeing the counter go up. Want to know a secret? Pick Peacock and Parasoul, get 3 bars, and do Argus DHC Inferno Brigade. That can get you upwards of 80-90 hits just from those 2 supers. If somebody did a 100-hit combo, they were probably doing regular shit but with a couple supers thrown in there.

Also, and I'm being completely serious about this statement, every single person you encounter is trying to beat you. Every single one. And the game requires you to either beat them or them to beat you; no in-between. Losing to somebody doesn't mean they're not also a beginner, it just means that they beat you.

Slap said:

I sort of have another question that I feel is related to the thread topic.

How can you tell if you're getting good? I can touch the fightstick and know a combo or two, but I feel like I'm spinning my wheels while I'm getting my face stomped in by people who've discovered the secret to learning the game.

I used to think the answer to this was "when you can beat people you didn't used to be able to beat", but that actually doesn't even sort of work, because like, what if those people also get better. I think it's more like, when you're not making the same mistakes you used to, then you probably got better. Like I had a problem for a long time where I would whiff Peacock's H Gun and someone would jump over it and kill me. It used to be like the #1 reason why I would get hit. I don't do that nearly as often now.

I'm a beginner for some months now,and some people may or may not have seen me play or have even played against me,but I guess that even I with my lack of experience (This game and fighting games In general) can tell you this...

Be patient.

I used to play League of Legends a lot,one of the toxic holes of the Internet (no offense,LoL can be fun and all and there are some genuinly nice people but holy fuck there can be some really negative people on It) for so far I have experienced those toxic holes.Where you will play for (generally) 20 to 40 minutes of what can be either frustration or happiness.

And that simple frustration Isn't merely by losing,though.I for example REALLY wanted to get good and well at It.But I was really crappy,even though I was trying my best a lot + toxic people who expect the best out of you (by the way,you eventually learn to Ignore those and remain calm If you want to,but It still wasn't that much fun with such a crowd).

When I got Skullgirls,a game I was genuinly pretty glad for It's existence with It's cool art,and eventually finding out about the cool people who play It (since the playerbase Is not that big,It feels kind of cozy and kindly),I was being more and more hyped about It.

When I got the game (thanks PurpleSharpie and whoever bought Skullgirls for her to give away) I was very glad.I was shit,like everyone else (I think) but glad.Over time I got frustrated,because I wouldn't perform that well and I just wanted to Improve.It was almost the same as with League I think,other then the fact that one game of Skullgirls takes about 1,5 minutes and LoL 45 minutes.That's where there Is a big difference.One game of League takes away atleast a half hour while with Skullgirls you can play maybe 10 to 20 of those games with people who
A) Can't chat with you,so won't easily shit talk you (Unless they steam message you,which nearly happens (So far the messages I got from people where decent and well feedback)
B) Are Indeed mostly well players,and you can make the most out of that too.

It's frustrating as It Is to be beaten hard,most of those people have practiced and practiced and practiced for long hours and I suppose they would have been just as frustrated as me.Maybe less,maybe more,but that frustration Is there with all of us to just get better and finally beat someone with a nice combo or smart play!

The best part of It Is that you can lose one time,and lose again afterwards,but If you get the most out of just losing,you maybe know why and what happened,and you can prevent It.

Back to my advice of being patient.

I'm not trying to mash on you for being critical about the game or being honest with It.Being honest with your feelings Is one step closer at learning how to control them.

But please don't deny the value of time.You can put a lot of effort In a game but time Is just as essential and Important.
30 hours aren't bad but don't underestimate the time your opponent might have put Into It.
And as much as you need time and effort to become better,you also need rest and discussions with yourself (unless that stresses you) to learn how to be calm and rational,and also let yourself enjoy the game foremost then pushing yourself to become better In It.Trust me at this one.


Do your best,have fun,rest and be calm,take your time,just enjoy Skullgirls for all It's worth It and be patient!That much I can tell you as a fellow beginner who also wants to become well at this game.

There's no answer to the git gud question, because it varies. Newbie Night was my first multiplayer experience and the same thing happened; it was a good idea, but is shitty in practice. Are there any local scenes near you? The time I went to a KC meet up was pretty fun and I improved quite a bit on account of getting individual tutoring sessions for both of my characters.

Slap said:

I sort of have another question that I feel is related to the thread topic.

How can you tell if you're getting good? I can touch the fightstick and know a combo or two, but I feel like I'm spinning my wheels while I'm getting my face stomped in by people who've discovered the secret to learning the game.

The moment you realize why you lost is when you begin to improve. Realizing what went wrong and working on correcting it is one of the biggest keys to improving.

mcpeanuts said:

My hug offer is REAL. See me in hugs.

20 on Peanuts holding the hug when length of hug time reaches awkwardness

Who likes Hodge teching second

@HodgyHype Do what I did when the game first came out. I'd just play the game on the hardest difficulty, 5 team rounds, infinite time, and would just grind. I believe the AI in SG is solid enough to train off of to a certain point where I can go online and hold my own and at least end a session with a number of wins.

I would HIGHLY recommend starting with simple characters first, i.e. Filia or Cerabella. When I started, I played that demo non-stop to the point where I understood Filia (and the IPS system) like the back of my hand. Now when I want to practice a new character, I'll sit down with that character for a week and get familiarized with them. Then I'll take them into arcade mode for another week and grind out with them solo; then add a teammate if applicable. Once you're comfortable with the character, take them online, lose some matches, but never give up.

Don't give up on the game. It's a beautiful and amazing game that is worthwhile if you put in the time to learn the system. To quote Jack the Dog (Adventure Time), "Sucking at something is the first step at becoming good at something."

I know I'm late to the party but

HodgyHype said:

I greatly enjoy when people complain about infinites in SG, considering it is the ONLY game since ST that provably has no infinite combos. If you see someone using the word "infinite" you can pretty much write them off immediately. :^)

Re: SG and ranked doing a worse job than SF of matching you with players of your skill level:
If one beginner and twenty experts are online looking for matches at once, should the beginner be denied a match or be matched up with the "worst" expert? SG does the latter. And since SG has a playerbase that seems to consist of more experts than beginners, beginners end up fighting better players a lot. In SF you have a million scrubs to choose from.
Maybe it's more of a function of SG not showing you anything about your opponent? "20000 BP, oh crap" vs "Oh his name is 'Duckator', that's a kinda stupid name, I bet he sucks"...?
Would people honestly prefer BP? Because in the few-beginners scenario it doesn't change anything, but it gives you a number to look at...

@HodgyHype
I know it's already been said, but if you have basically zero experience (and if you have not played a Versus-style game before, 30 hours is zero experience) then you aren't playing to win, you're playing to learn. Don't focus on what happens after you got hit, focus on why you got hit and try to not get hit that way next time.
Combo length/number of hits are completely unrelated to player skill.
And for serious, let dekillsage teach you.

Mike_Z said:

Would people honestly prefer BP? Because in the few-beginners scenario it doesn't change anything, but it gives you a number to look at...

I think some method of being able to tangibly see how good the player is before a match starts would be helpful. My brother has been playing (not as much as I'd like, and he avoids training mode/tutorials like the plague). He goes into every match truly believing he'll beat whoever he is pitted against. And when he looses, he too often ends up thinking the other person scrubbed him out of the win. And while sometimes they do, sometimes they are flat out better at the game. He gets more upset losing to strangers than he does to me, even though I beat him worse than anyone online, because he acknowledges that I am better than him at the game. I think if he ran online and saw someone was "SSS Rank" or whatever, he'd get much less frustrated, and maybe even try and get better. Basically, losing to some "SSS Rank" guy when you're "D- Rank" doesn't feel bad, where losing to someone you aren't at all separated from feels bad.

Oh, and I personally would prefer not to have BP. At least not visible BP. Having numbers assigned to me, and more importantly losing those numbers every match I lost, frustrated me when playing SF4 and I'm hoping to not experience that again. It's like if you lost experience points for losing a character in an JRPG on top of that character not gaining experience for the battle. Anyway, would prefer just a Ranking system of some sort, with either the "D/C/B/A/S" stuff, or maybe titles, or something like that.

Zidiane said:

I think if he ran online and saw someone was "SSS Rank" or whatever, he'd get much less frustrated, and maybe even try and get better. Basically, losing to some "SSS Rank" guy when you're "D- Rank" doesn't feel bad, where losing to someone you aren't at all separated from feels bad.

I honestly wouldn't mind this and it's something I would constantly work towards ranking up. My only current complaint is that if I currently play online, I'll eventually join the ranks on the PSN Leaderboard, but if I get busy and don't play, I'll no longer be on that list. I feel if there was a letter rank system, I could come back and still be a B+ player or something.

Mike_Z said:

Would people honestly prefer BP?

I would prefer PP; BP is little different from what we got atm.
Man, an actual ELO system in Ranked, rather than just counting wins, would be grand.

I mean, it would still be Quickmatch, but at least a 6000 PP score would mean someone has some idea how to win (not necessarily how to play), rather than people just massgaming for 5000hours, losing 80%, and still landing on #3 of the leaderboards by virtue of just playing a lot.

I wouldn't mind if there was a system that showed a player's total amount of played games and wins instead of some BP points.

i like it the way it is now, no visible points or win/losses, it makes it more relaxed. We can play alt teams and whatnot and not care about losing.

playerWins - playerLosses = playerScore

Need a 50.01% win rate to get a higher score, but you're never going to have your KD Ratio fucked up by being bad at the start.

Someone who grinds 5000 hours and loses 90% of his games gets stuck at 0.
Someone who plays once a day for 10 games and wins 9 gets a higher score.

Wow if something useful comes out of this thread I'm going to shit bricks

Skarmand said:

playerWins - playerLosses = playerScore

Need a 50.01% win rate to get a higher score, but you're never going to have your KD Ratio fucked up by being bad at the start.

I assume you mean "no negatives", as else this would cause a guy who loses 4000 of his first 5000 games to need a LOT of work to even get to 0.

The problem with something like this is that it doesn't take the opponent into consideration whatsoever, so if I play at an hour where I keep running into Sonicfox Dekillsage and Whathaveyou, I will be stuck at 0; while someone who keeps running into The-same-random-nublet will get 100-0 wins for free.

IsaVulpes said:

something like this is that it doesn't take the opponent into consideration whatsoever, so if I play at an hour where I keep running into Sonicfox Dekillsage and Whathaveyou, I will be stuck at 0; while someone who keeps running into The-same-random-nublet will get 100-0 wins for free.

I think that applies to every score system.
Unless you get points for losing, just less.

IsaVulpes said:

Man, an actual ELO system in Ranked, rather than just counting wins, would be grand.

It's ALREADY ELO, it's TrueSkill.
TrueSkillCalculator::CalculateNewRatings() at the end of every match, for example.
That's WHY it works the way it does with respect to leaderboards and matching, which people seem to have a huge problem with!
FFS. Maybe nothing useful will come out of this thread after all.

Mike_Z said:

It's ALREADY ELO, it's TrueSkill.
TrueSkillCalculator::CalculateNewRatings() at the end of every match, for example.
That's WHY it works the way it does with respect to leaderboards and matching, which people seem to have a huge problem with!
FFS. Maybe nothing useful will come out of this thread after all.

I think all you can really do is just find a way to prevent new people from playing with combo whoric combo spammers via score restricted (?) lobbies or something like a beginner QM mode. (With a play again option).

This 'problem' is pretty hard to fix in any unpopulated competitive game.
With numbers like Dota and League it's easier to do, but you still get smurfs and really good players in your level 5 games screaming at you for dying.

Mike_Z said:

It's ALREADY ELO, it's TrueSkill.
TrueSkillCalculator::CalculateNewRatings() at the end of every match, for example.
That's WHY it works the way it does with respect to leaderboards and matching, which people seem to have a huge problem with!
FFS. Maybe nothing useful will come out of this thread after all.

Uh, if you have an ELO System in the Matchmaking, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just use that for the Leaderboard placement instead of the Wincount?
Cus the Leaderboards definitely only use "Amount of Wins", with no care whatsoever about anything else. And it's also the only statistic one can display in any way (I can't even check for myself whether my 300 wins are coming from a 300-10 or a 300-800 overall score; nor how high my ELO is)

Skarmand said:

I think that applies to every score system.
Unless you get points for losing, just less.

If you lose 100%, yes. Else, not really.
ELO: If I have a far lower rating than say Sonicfox, I will lose -1 or even 0 points on every loss and get +100 or something for a win.
If I run into someone Not-Sonicfox, I will get a win, gain say +50 points and then would have to run into Sonic 50 times in a row, not winning a single one, to lose those points back. Unlikely to happen.

On the other hand, the guy who keeps running into random nublets will at some point have say a 2000 rating and simply not gain any points anymore from beating up the 700-900 rateds; while losing 200pts on the spot if he gets randomed out once.

IsaVulpes said:

Uh, if you have an ELO System in the Matchmaking, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just use that for the Leaderboard placement instead of the Wincount?
Cus the Leaderboards definitely only use "Amount of Wins", with no care whatsoever about anything else. And it's also the only statistic one can display in any way (I can't even check for myself whether my 300 wins are coming from a 300-10 or a 300-800 overall score; nor how high my ELO is)

On PC they use wins because of how much people COMPLAINED about the way they work on console, which is ELO score.

I don't know if I have any merit to suggest a god damn thing to any one but Im gonna try any ways.
Fighting games are one of the single hardest video games to understand. You need to understand psychological tendencies of players, understand risk benefit analysis, understand when to be patient and when not to be, and you have to utilize a lot of spatial analysis oh and do all this while playing chess. Yeah it's intimidating but that's why it's fun :) if your not enjoying the game you might just not like this stuff dude.

I'm not going to say "train with the best to be the best". Instead I'm gonna ask a very basic question. @HodgyHype what do you enjoy about skullgirls? Why do you enjoy it?

Sorry for the wall of text and the opinions of an average player......

i feel like theres something weird going on with the xbox ranking system. im fairly certain ive actually moved down in rankings even when i havent had any losses in that session.

Mike_Z said:

Would people honestly prefer BP? Because in the few-beginners scenario it doesn't change anything, but it gives you a number to look at...

Yes. I like to make my number go up.

Mike_Z said:

If you see someone using the word "infinite" you can pretty much write them off immediately.

You say that, yet when a lost soul hops into Steam forums to complain about the overwhelming "infinites", he's at a fork in the road. Whether he'll continue to play the game (even if just casually) and recommend it to his friends, or drop the game and badmouth it everywhere, depends entirely on the response the community gives him then and there. A lot of those people are lost causes yes, but some just need to be shown some patience and explanation.

Zidiane said:

I think some method of being able to tangibly see how good the player is before a match starts would be helpful.

As long as it's shown in character select rather than the ping window. Last thing we'd need is lots of matches being refused because of too high opponent score. Beginners accept no matches, experts have none of their matches accepted, no one gets to play and everyone's pissed.

yea we dont need more ways to avoid playing matches with people. im 99% certain that there are some players who will decline matches based solely on your ping number. Not as in "that person has high ping, i dont want to play in lag", but rather "the guy who just beat me the last 2 times had a ping very similar to this one, i dont wanna play this guy."

ive had this happen to me a whole freaking bunch since the game was released.

another thing that leads me to believe xbox leaderboards are borked is that my standing will fluctuate wildly between the 600-300 range, and on psn my ranking is below 200 most of the time.

I don't know if you're still reading this thread, OP:

I've played fighting games very casually my whole life. This is the first one I'm trying to get good at—and let me tell you, 95% of my games are me getting my shit pushed in. The fun thing is, I can see myself improving against people who I play w/ consistently. If there's nothing else you take from this whole thread, take this: You're going to lose a lot, and the only way to still enjoy the game is by trying to consciously improve, and seeing how you improve vs. your opponents.

A tip from nublet to nublet:
Pick a favorite character. Learn the shit out of that character. Learn at least 1 combo; the hard part with that is that, it's easy to pull off in training mode, but when it comes to a real fight, it's hard as hell. (I learned a combo in training, then fought 'Nightmare' level computer until I could pull off the combo in the middle of a fight). Think of it this way—you want to be able to hit your opponent with one hit, and always turn that into a combo that drains 25% of their life.

Evilweevle said:

another thing that leads me to believe xbox leaderboards are borked is that my standing will fluctuate wildly between the 600-300 range, and on psn my ranking is below 200 most of the time.

XBox uses Microsoft's TrueSkill system, which I think degrades your standing the more often you play (or something). PSN uses our TrueSkill implementation.

Back on topic...?

HodgyHype said:

but it's not without flaws.

I'm curious why people keep saying this like it means something. Are there games without flaws? Or is it just that there are games with flaws you're willing to overlook?

Of course there are games without flaws. See Tao Taido as an example:

Mike_Z said:

I'm curious why people keep saying this like it means something. Are there games without flaws? Or is it just that there are games with flaws you're willing to overlook?

It's often times the equivalent of saying "No one's claiming it's perfect, and I recognize it has imperfections." This is usually a conversational courtesy in response to someone, say, making a harsh unfounded judgement. That is, even though one may be talking about good characteristics—one usually doesn't want to come off as claiming something is flawless.

For me, It never feels that I "got gud". But, it depends I guess on how confident you are. I have to get a response from a regular play group to see if I got better at the game. I also am a better spectator than player. When watching and not playing the game I have lots of ideas and can come up with answers for things, but while playing I blank slate and start spontaneously regurgitating things that I have drilled/sub-consciously remember into play. It's only when I am forced to come out of the game when I can implement things that I have theorized and or planned. (That's why I picked up peacock after playing Filia which IMO is way more instinctual {Which I think people who can think outside the game when playing Filia are 1. good Filias and 2. reached the "Got Gud" status}).