• As part of the relaunch of Skullheart, ALL previous threads have been archived. You can find them at the bottom of the forum in the Archives (2021) section. The archives are locked, so please use the new forum sections to create new discussion threads.

BnBs and Variation. Or not at all?

Adwins

Active Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
236
Reaction score
88
Points
28
Age
30
Steam
AppleDashWINS
Ms. Fortune Squigly Eliza
NOTE: As I typed this, I realized I was wrong in saying the only combo worth learning for a character is an optimized one, but it was really eating at me and i want to share so I'm posting the whole thing anyway

so I was messing around with Beowulf today, I memorized the starter Hopdash MP > cLK > cMK > some hard button > QCF anything (or QCB KK if you used cHP). once, I accidentally did hop > MK and I saw that it did much more damage than MP. I thought to myself: Well, since Scaling isn't an issue since it's the first hit, why would anyone use MP?" Then I wondered if this would apply to Combos as well...

So obviously BnBs are combos essential to learn for each character, but the more I play, the more i see I'm using ONLY those BnBs. Then I think, "Hey, as long as I'm getting in and I know the weight of the opponent, I only need to know how to use these few combos"

Like, you'd use one combo on the ground, one in the corner, and one against air, with the only variation in these being DHCs and Assists. Heck, some of these combos are still variations on the same one! ie, Eliza's Corner combo is similar to the midscreen bnb i learned, and the Squigly BnB I learned (which is also a Burst bait) can be completed from pretty much any hit I confirm (though it won't undizzy depending on where you confirm).

But anyway, if beginners like me can learn an optimized combo, would there be any reason to use a different combo? If everyone learned the same BnBs, would neutral and confirming be the only variable part of a match?

But see, it was just then that I realized I was wrong. In typing this, I deconstructed my own argument:
>Combo length changes when you confirm at different parts, leaving you more or less attacks to reach Undizzy

>Optimized combos can be learned by anyone, but sometimes people get frustrated when they can't get a combo right after a certain number of times, and then they'd want to learn simpler combos first. and there's nothing inherently wrong with that for a beginner, since they still get some damage in and they don't have to worry about dropping a high-risk-high-reward combo.

>It was right there in my first sentence. "Some hard button." "Some special." I was going to say that it would only be a matter of numbers, or that your next buttons would etermine which you;d actually hit, but math aside, that's EXACTLY what variation comes from. If you have to use 214 MK instead of 214 LK, you can't just try and continue the same combo

but i still had to share this because it FEELS like I was only using one combo with squigly or Eliza. The thing with Squigly is that the combo i learned for her can be used almost anywhere from any hit so that might contibute to it. And I was used to that universality, that I always try to convert my hits into my Eliza BnB and it doesn't always work or i hit a wrong button, which STILL HITS, but anything I try after that will not work.
 
different combos make resets less predictable and that is a HUGE deal in skullgirls

but i'm not sure what kind of feedback you're expecting from this thread
 
I think I see what you're saying? I learned a combo and, well, I'm not sure that was a wise move. It's made gameplay kind of more repetitive and this weird plateau of less fun. It started off as "Hey, I wonder if this'll work?" and morphed into a weird "Okay, let's knock the other gal around the stage again and it's all over again." Seems like it lost that sort of frenetic discovery of "I got a hit! How do I use it?"

I think I just need to take a break for a few days, and then mix up my team a bit.

Interesting observation from last night's session: I tried Solo Eliza and Solo Bella runs on Arcade, and was less proficient than my usual pairing of the two. (I ended up giving up on Eliza vs. Marie 'cause I was strapped for time, and it was faster to do a spontaneous Bella run. Also, has the couch move been nerfed? It kept getting blocked by the exploding standing skeletons, and I don't think it did that before.)
 
Pretty much echoing what Caio said, it's a good idea to have an optimal combo for when you are going for a kill, and then have variant combos to keep your opponent on edge so they don't know what to expect in terms of a reset.
 
The only time I optimize my combo is when I am sure that I can kill. Even then, I don't always optimize.

I tend to favor combo consistency over optimal damage, meaning that I will generally choose to do combos that I know I won't drop as opposed to combos that I might drop, even if the more difficult combo does a decent bit more damage. I also favor combos that provide good resets opportunities, meaning that not only am I not focusing on damage but I'm also varying the combos that I perform simply to increase my chances of a successful reset.

Varying the combos that you use is very important in this game simply because resets are so strong. Changing your combo changes your possible reset points, making it more difficult for your opponent to predict or react to your next attempt at a reset.
 
I'll do an optimal combo if I land a clean counterhit, but that's just because i get a huge damage boost by using a counterhit combo. The only other time I go for max damage is when I know I want to DHC out
 
Also, has the couch move been nerfed? It kept getting blocked by the exploding standing skeletons, and I don't think it did that before.)
In retail or in Beta? i wouldn't be able to tell you eithe way since I just use cHK anyway since it has invincibility.

different combos make resets less predictable and that is a HUGE deal in skullgirls

but i'm not sure what kind of feedback you're expecting from this thread
I wasn't as clear as I wanted, but since I realized that combos don't have to be repetitive, I was still wondering why a person would use other combos. I had mentioned that ease of execution could be a reason but i had a feeling there was more to it than that.

Changing your combo changes your possible reset points, making it more difficult for your opponent to predict or react to your next attempt at a reset.
have variant combos to keep your opponent on edge so they don't know what to expect in terms of a reset.
This makes sense. and yeah, a few times when I was able to pull off my Undizzy, I was disappointed in how little damage it did in an actual battle (It was my first time using a team so i thought it was just that)

Though I should say I'm not good enough with Squigly to start using resets often. Like, I know LK Divekick and Throws are common Squig resets, but Divekick can be stuffed easily and I never really used throws at all until after my last event

I'll do an optimal combo if I land a clean counterhit, but that's just because i get a huge damage boost by using a counterhit combo.
Counters actually boost damage? huh. Thought that was only Soul Calibur.
Also, I'm the exact opposit: If I want to swicth, i just do a 3-5 hit combo before a DHC so i'm sure i can confirm it, then just a small string with my second character
 
In retail or in Beta? i wouldn't be able to tell you eithe way since I just use cHK anyway since it has invincibility.

Beta. I haven't played retail in a little while. I like the extra hit points and the practice against Beopain.
 
varying your combos
how the hell am I supposed to do that with bella?!
 
Side note: Just confirmed, Eliza's couch move goes past Marie's exploding skeletons, detonating them and carrying on his jolly way to smack Marie in the shin. Also, I have got to find a better way to fight her.
 
Counters actually boost damage? huh. Thought that was only Soul Calibur.
Also, I'm the exact opposit: If I want to swicth, i just do a 3-5 hit combo before a DHC so i'm sure i can confirm it, then just a small string with my second character

You get a bit of a damage boost on the raw hit from a counterhit, but the big thing is that you get extra undizzy to work with. 25 for light or special, 50 for medium, 100 for heavy.
The difference between my Eliza mid screen BnB and my light counterhit is about 500 damage meterless. I could probably optimize further, but this way I'm keeping my confirms really easy.
 
25 for light or special, 50 for medium, 100 for heavy
About undizzy, special moves are considered medium.
They add 20 undizzy during combos, and offer +50 undizzy on counterhit, not 25.
 
I accidentally did hop > MK and I saw that it did much more damage than MP. I thought to myself: Well, since Scaling isn't an issue since it's the first hit, why would anyone use MP?"
I have no idea what either of these normals are, but basic reason to use lower damage attacks are:
- Better range (either hitting at a longer distance, or having less pushback / sporting a vacuum effect, so your starter works from farther away)
- Higher hitstun (giving you more time to confirm)
- Hitting low/high rather than mid (making it more likely to connect, giving simpler mixup opportunities)
- Having more frame advantage on block (allowing you mixups after it got blocked, rather than getting punished)

But anyway, if beginners like me can learn an optimized combo, would there be any reason to use a different combo? If everyone learned the same BnBs, would neutral and confirming be the only variable part of a match?
The baseline thought that you don't really need more than one combo as long as it works on all chars and both midscreen / in the corner is correct.
It is far more important to practice things such as conversions, general neutral, defence, mixups, resets, matchups, picking-up-on-habits, etc
Once you have a decent combo which doesn't deal abysmal damage, got some reset points, and works on everyone everywhere, you don't need to touch learning combos for a long long long time again.

However, there are reasons to use differing combos.
Damage optimization per character / starter / spot on the screen, differing reset points, changing routes depending on what you want out of a combo (eg perhaps you want to DHC into combo when you have 2 bars, or to do an early Lvl3), etc

EG with Bella you could have:
- one base combo, roughly damage optimized
- one combo that doesn't use OTG, for when you want to convert out of MGR/jHK/Horns
- one corner combo
- one corner combo that doesn't use OTG, same as above
- one combo that doesn't use OTG and stops 5 Undizzy short prior to super, so you can do Double-Dynamo as a 2 bar optimized damage string
- one combo that stops at 100 Undizzy, doesn't use OTG and ends in Titan Knuckle, because you know you can get a kill if the followup Oki connects
- one combo with a ton of frontloaded damage for when you do a high Ud reset
- one combo each for when you land a CH light/medium/heavy, respectively
etc
And all of these would be useful to varying extends.

But yes, my Bella combo
- Is Char universal
- Works everywhere on the Screen
- Doesn't use OTG
Which is good enough for me; and I will just do this combo after everything
(cLK cMP sHP xx RS is my normal starter, but it works just the same after MGR, Lvl3, Horns, Air2Air jLK-jHK, etc)
.. And this is perfectly fine.
 
Last edited: