Indivisible: Lab Zero's Action-RPG! (General Discussion)

Mike_Z said:

No bikini pictures, but maybe?

There goes any incentive I had for playing this game fast.

But seriously, if things are working out like I think they are, this'll probably be a game I'll enjoy playing nice and slow.

Mike_Z said:

4. No bikini pictures

I could handle the brain-cell-destroying arguments, but this tears it!



I'm reporting this thread to the Inquisition.

Skarmand said:

Are you okay with the 'bomb every tile for secrets' method for Indivisible?
Or will there almost always be some way to tell there might be a secret, even if it's just a few pixels?

I'm not really a fan of bomb-everywhere, no. There'll be SOME kind of indication, because "just check the entire map" is not very much fun.
This assumes the existence of anything hidden...

Skarmand said:

When people start breaking the game and finding serious exploits for the purposes of speed running, will you be patching the game to remove them or leaving it alone for the speed running community to have a consistent version to practice?

Lab Zero might do things differently, but for context: People have tried to speedrun a number of in-beta games before, and it's pretty well accepted that a) your times will probably end up meaning nothing once the official version is released because of the changes made, and b) any exploit you find before release is liable to be patched out in case its existence can cause unexpected stability/gameplay errors for 'normal' players.

I'd also like to repeat what I noted a few pages back - designing a game *for* speedrunning is a bad idea. A much better approach is to simply be aware of the things that runners commonly find annoying (e.g. excessive RNG) and reduce those where possible, but above all just make the core game fun to play.

Vadsamoht said:

Lab Zero might do things differently, but for context: People have tried to speedrun a number of in-beta games before, and it's pretty well accepted that a) your times will probably end up meaning nothing once the official version is released because of the changes made, and b) any exploit you find before release is liable to be patched out in case its existence can cause unexpected stability/gameplay errors for 'normal' players.

I'd also like to repeat what I noted a few pages back - designing a game *for* speedrunning is a bad idea. A much better approach is to simply be aware of the things that runners commonly find annoying (e.g. excessive RNG) and reduce those where possible, but above all just make the core game fun to play.

I didn't mean speed running the beta.
I meant speed running the proper release of the game.

Vadsamoht said:

A much better approach is to simply be aware of the things that runners commonly find annoying (e.g. excessive RNG) and reduce those where possible,

I'm actually a big fan of RNG. At least when it comes to dodging enemy attacks. One thing I hate is when a boss is fun...until you memorize it, and then you can never lose to it or find it fun again.

I like it when there's a few unpredictable elements on enemy attack positions/timings/etc. so that you have to react and improvise a bit each time.

This shit. This is what I like. Oh, and this too. Oh and pretty much the entirety of the second GNG game. Love that one.

About speedrunning:
Just like with SG, it depends on the bug. OOW stuff, I'd probably fix. Skips probably not, etc, but it depends on the bug.
One of the reasons Ocarina of Time has become exponentially less fun to watch for me is because you're no longer really playing the game. Super Metroid or non-glitched SM64 stay interesting because a speedrun is a very good playthrough of most of the game, rather than just the beginning and some bug and then the end.

I'm just waiting to see how the platforming is.

everything else so far has pretty much been gravy. :)

Squire Grooktook said:

I'm actually a big fan of RNG. At least when it comes to dodging enemy attacks. One thing I hate is when a boss is fun...until you memorize it, and then you can never lose to it or find it fun again.

I like it when there's a few unpredictable elements on enemy attack positions/timings/etc. so that you have to react and improvise a bit each time.

This shit. This is what I like. Oh, and this too. Oh and pretty much the entirety of the second GNG game. Love that one.

I actually completely agree, I was more trying to say that there needs to be an awareness of what can make RNG bad in specific situations. Anything that generally just means you just have to do more of what you were already doing is probably bad, for example (e.g JRPG bosses that can just do Heal-Heal-Heal-Heal endlessly if the RNG is right). SM64 is actually an interesting example because the RNG is present but uninteresting - a bad coin spawn isn't really much more than an annoyance costing and extra second or two in pretty much all cases, but there really isn't any high-level adaptation to the RNG outcome either way (I just run over here instead of running over there).

Will there be any indication on HUD whether or not there are still secrets left to uncover in given area? I really like to go 100% in metroidvanias, but searching the entire gameworld for that one last secret would probably really demotivate me. :P

Kawalorn said:

Will there be any indication on HUD whether or not there are still secrets left to uncover in given area? I really like to go 100% in metroidvanias, but searching the entire gameworld for that one last secret would probably really demotivate me. :P

Given that I don't know what kind of secrets we're even DOING, the answer is: if there is one, you probably don't get it until you've beaten the game or something.
Entering an area and seeing "0/20" is really dumb.

What kind of turn based is this going to be? one by one each character makes a move or character actions overlap but you control one character at a time? So is it like Final Fantasy X or Final Fantasy X-2?

I guess another thing it could be like is the star ocean games where you can set your teams AI to do stuff while you aren't using them then on the fly you can take control.

Maybe its like the FF XIII series? Control one character and the AI controls the other 3? Can she walk around the battle field like in ff13 to be in a better position?

Maybe its a part hack'n slash part rpg system like the tales of symphonia games?

I haven't played any of the games this game is drawing inspiration from so I'm trying to get and idea about it from games I have played above. Given the character layout it looks like its gona be one by one turn based but i hope I'm wrong.

If i could choose I'd want it to be like Talse of symphonia. A combo system can be fun in an rpg. Maybe there could be launchers and air combos too grapples to.




Edit: caught up on reading the forum. Mike answered my questions already answering someone else. Looking forward to the combos. Hope we get juggle combos.

Mike_Z said:

Super Metroid or non-glitched SM64 stay interesting because a speedrun is a very good playthrough of most of the game, rather than just the beginning and some bug and then the end.

To be fair; I think that in most good/well-loved speedgames, there exists some busted category (or even multiple of them) - such as SM Any% XClimb/Any% GT; or ALttP Any%/No EG; or even the SotN save corruption (although the main run of that game is quite broken as well).
People just recognized that a 15 minute run which is simply getting to some glitch location as fast as possible and then executing some arbitrary bullshit into game end is neither fun to play nor watch, so they dabbled with it for a short while after it was discovered, and then went back to the normal categories.
OoT is different because it is a bad speedgame with a silly community ;F The iQue player is telling enough..

Squire Grooktook said:

One thing I hate is when a boss is fun...until you memorize it, and then you can never lose to it or find it fun again.

I entirely hate bossfights, so I'm all for stupid bosses that can be quick killed with a simple trick 8[

Kawalorn said:

Will there be any indication on HUD whether or not there are still secrets left to uncover in given area? I really like to go 100% in metroidvanias, but searching the entire gameworld for that one last secret would probably really demotivate me. :P

You like to 100%, but you want to do it by getting a blinking marker that tells you "Hey look here! There may be a secret hidden in this room!"?
Doesn't that defeat the entire purpose of like, ~discovering all the secrets~?

Vadsamoht said:

designing a game *for* speedrunning is a bad idea.

Why?
I mean, obviously the game should be casually fun as well, but "designing for speedrunning" in the end doesn't really mean a whole lot other than adding a lot of movement abilities, not going out of your way to make the game overly linear, keeping the rng factor low and potentially adding some niceties that make practice easier (save/load states, frame counters for room traversals, ingametime display that counts down to miliseconds).
Dustforce was quite clearly "designed for speedrunning" and I don't think it has hurt the game one bit!

IsaVulpes said:

OoT is different because it is a bad speedgame with a silly community ;F The iQue player is telling enough..

iQue isn't fastest anymore, though, so that's kind of moot.

IsaVulpes said:

Why?
I mean, obviously the game should be casually fun as well, but "designing for speedrunning" in the end doesn't really mean a whole lot other than adding a lot of movement abilities, not going out of your way to make the game overly linear, keeping the rng factor low and potentially adding some niceties that make practice easier (save/load states, frame counters for room traversals, ingametime display that counts down to miliseconds).

I don't really want to name games, but there have been several games that have more or less marketed themselves as speedrun games, and they tend to end up bland games with an inbuilt timer, 100% counter, and a number of developer-intended-and-planned 'skips' scattered throughout.

You're not wrong, though; There's nothing that necessarily makes a game designed for speedrunning bad for speedrunning (and obligatory 'different people find different things fun', etc.), my point was that you're better off designing a game to be a solid product in general and then if people who are into running play the game and enjoy it then they might decide to pick it up for that purpose. Trying to convince them to buy your game and shoehorn them into running it simply because it's currently the in-vogue thing is the wrong approach in my opinion, and for the most part I wish that devs would just forget that people play the game in that way at all and just make a fun game.

Dustforce was quite clearly "designed for speedrunning" and I don't think it has hurt the game one bit!

I haven't played Dustforce, but the Shovel Knight developers did a commentary during one of GDQs where they explained how some of the decisions they made were influenced by their own speedrunning experience.

Vadsamoht said:

iQue isn't fastest anymore, though, so that's kind of moot.

No - It's a nice illustration of how the community is bananas, regardless of whether it's still used or not

Vadsamoht said:

there have been several games that have more or less marketed themselves as speedrun games, and they tend to end up bland games with an inbuilt timer, 100% counter, and a number of developer-intended-and-planned 'skips' scattered throughout.

Obviously making a shit game that markets itself towards the current FotM is rather bleh; I am just challenging the notion that there has to be something inherently wrong with it (as noted, "designing for speedrunning" doesn't really mean much aside from providing a timer and perhaps practice help in form of savestates).

It's like saying that people should rather not make FPSes, because they tend to be boring uber generic WW2 games that have been seen 500 times and bring literally nothing to the table - it's true that this is the case, but that's not an inbuilt fault of the First Person Shooter genre; it's certainly possible to create a fun and engaging FPS.

---

I agree that for the most part one should just make an as-good-as-possible game and if it happens to also be a good speedgame, people will run it;
But I also don't really see anything wrong in helping runners out by adding some bonus stuff that won't be used by any casual player ever (such as the aforementioned framecounter to check differing room strategies)

IsaVulpes said:

I entirely hate bossfights, so I'm all for stupid bosses than can be quick killed with a simple trick 8[

Then randomize normal enemies. Contra 1-3 all have randomized enemy spawns for the recurring "runner" enemy types, and randomized behavior patterns on those enemies to boot!* Ghouls and Ghosts does the same thing (the second game at least, first one is more static, and the third one has some randomness but not as much).

I can't really sympathize with hating boss fights. IMO they're an essential part of the traditional action game experience. Not only do they provide a climax to stages, but they also provide a "difference in kind", ie going from fighting large numbers of weaker enemies to engaging 1 strong enemy. 1 on 1 duels require a different strategy then gunning down fragile hordes, and most classic action games would be quite a bit more repetitive feeling without them.

*

Squire Grooktook said:

Then randomize normal enemies.

No thanks?? I am unsure what you are trying for here

they also provide a "difference in kind"

That's precisely why I dislike them

I spend hours upon hours perfecting my movement so I can get through stages without ever pulling any brake, learn how to avoid every enemy in my path, quickly dispatch a few that would slow me down otherwise, and just in general enjoy jumping from one platform to the next..
And then randomly I'm stuck in a tiny room where I suddenly have to fight some giant monster and everything I learned up to this point is useless; platforming is gone, movement is gone, avoidance is gone, etc etc etc - I'm magically forced to play an entirely different game?

Bosses are cool when they are extensions of what I previously learned, in a more forcing manner (eg I get a Hookshot type item, play around some with the Hookshot to learn how it functions, and then I go into a giant area with a boss whom I have to fight by quickly and smartly maneuvering through the area with said Hookshot), but way too often the boss levels are (intentionally) designed in a way that they have nothing to do with the rest of the game -
I play Sonic because I want to play a momentum based platformer that, when executed properly, allows me to go at insane speeds; not to be in a tiny 5x5 pixel box and stand around afk waiting for Eggman to come back on screen so I can jump on his head and then afk again.

Imagine you played Portal, and every 3 levels you'd lose the portal gun and be stuck in a car where you first have to beat your adversary by outracing them, and then only get to advance after beating them in a fistfight.
Maybe this fistfight has engaging combat, and maybe the racing controls are quite fun.. but ultimately this is not what I play Portal for, and Portal isn't hurt one bit by "being repetitive" because all you do is walk and solve puzzles with your portal gun.
Nobody would get the idea to do this either, because it is, plain and simple, rather .. silly! But in platformers for some reason it is established and "necessary"?.?

Again, if you can make a boss who keeps the general gist of the game alive (and in Indivisible that will most likely happen by virtue of the combat system alone - since you are going to fight Bosses just the same as any other enemy, and the enemy-fighting is clearcut from the platforming sections) I'm all for them, but the usual "Ok, the last 20 hours you practiced how to pin-point-land on a 1 square tile out of a running jump, now let's shake it up a bit and just require you to do something that has nothing to do with the entire rest of the game" (see also: Battle Levels in Dustforce) I can't stand

IsaVulpes said:

No thanks?? I am unsure what you are trying for here

You might have missed what I was saying in my original post that your responded to, having gone off on boss fights.

I was originally saying how I dislike static patterns (the example I used was bosses, but it could apply to stages, normal enemy combat, etc.), since I prefer games where you have to react and improvise each time due to unpredictable (read random or semi-random) enemy or hazard behavior. The constant mental gymnastics of reactionary bullet/hazard dodging provides a joy unlike anything that rote memorization and static timings could ever give. The aforementioned Contra and Ghouls and Ghosts are among the best examples, though there are other excellent games that do it too (Rayforce, my favorite shmup of all time, has a lot of this in the second half of the game)

It's a matter of subjective taste...but seriously fuck static enemy/boss patterns.

IsaVulpes said:

And then randomly I'm stuck in a tiny room where I suddenly have to fight some giant monster and everything I learned up to this point is useless;

If everything you learned is useless, then either you're playing a game where boss fights have completely different gameplay mechanics, or you didn't learn as much as you think you did.

Boss fights in games like R-Type, Contra, Ghouls and Ghosts, Darius, Ninja Spirit, Alien Soldier, etc. are extensions of the same skills and mechanics you have learned throughout the whole game, just applied in a different context.

IsaVulpes said:

Again, if you can make a boss who keeps the general gist of the game alive I'm all for them

Oh, okay. That's not what your original comment implied.

IsaVulpes said:

Thing about bosses.

So, for instance, you like the only boss in portal 1, that is glados, because you just need to think with portals to defeat her? But bosses like eggman that you mentioned, because they are a different cup of tea? So, have you played Sonic Advance 2, most bosses in that game are running bosses, and you kinda need to hit them while keeping momentum and avoiding hazards, i'm curious to know your opinion about it.

I'm really not going to give opinions here, because even having them, i think my library of games is more limited. But yeah, since indivisible is an rpg, a boss will use the same mechanics as the game in general.

As far as secrets go, I would just hope for some indication on whether or not there are any remaining in an area. I was never a fan of "I'm missing an Energy Tank. It could be ANYWHERE IN THE WHOLE GAME. Time to search everything and then probably miss it still."

Zidiane said:

As far as secrets go, I would just hope for some indication on whether or not there are any remaining in an area. I was never a fan of "I'm missing an Energy Tank. It could be ANYWHERE IN THE WHOLE GAME. Time to search everything and then probably miss it still."

Did you ever play Shadow Complex? It was a pretty fun Metroidvania (one of the best of the modern era, imo), and it used lighting and camera focus really effectively to imply the presence of secrets without making it too obvious. Additionally, it did also include a really useful (if somewhat hand-holding) feature for completionists: it would change the color of a room on the map if you've found everything in it. So, it wouldn't tell you what was there, or how to get it, but it let you know there was something.

IsaVulpes said:

You like to 100%, but you want to do it by getting a blinking marker that tells you "Hey look here! There may be a secret hidden in this room!"?
Doesn't that defeat the entire purpose of like, ~discovering all the secrets~?

No?

That's like saying that being able to survive more than one hit from enemies defeats the whole challenge of a game.

There is challenge, and then there is balance. I assure you barely anyone would want to go 100% if they didn't know where to even start looking on the whole world map, same as few people would play a game where you have to restart it after getting hit once.

And seriously I said "given area" not "given room". I'd apreciate if you didn't put words in my mouth. Just a "you found 99% of treasures in this dungeon" is fine.

Mike_Z said:

Given that I don't know what kind of secrets we're even DOING, the answer is: if there is one, you probably don't get it until you've beaten the game or something.
Entering an area and seeing "0/20" is really dumb.

Hm, I guess that would be fair, though I do preffer to have done everything before the final boss.

Squire Grooktook said:

Create a situation where players are consistently forced to react and improvise. As a fan of the aforementioned games (and others that use frequent random elements for reactive purposes, including Rayforce, Akumajo Dracula x68, Touhou, Ninja Spirit, Rastan Saga, etc.), that constant mental gymnastics of reactionary bullet/hazard dodging provides a joy unlike anything that rote memorization and static timings could ever give.

SM has a mix of "Enemies that move as soon as you enter the room" and "Enemies that move as soon as you scroll the screen to them", with a set movement pattern for the former group and 1-2 patterns for the second one.
If you aren't speedrunning, this is diverse enough that you don't feel there is "rote memorization". If you are speedrunning, this is SO much better than a plethora of RNG which would destroy entire runs just based on unlucky enemy patterns (which currently happens with the Phantoon/Draygon/Ridley fights already, but if this was every enemy in the game it would be a rather shit speedgame), as well as just being somewhere between obnoxious and impossible to practice

If everything you learned is useless, then either you're playing a game where boss fights have completely different gameplay mechanics, or you didn't learn as much as you think you did.

Again SM since it's the game I know best:
I understand all the movement tech in SM and can do the utmost of it, but it's kinda worthless when I'm sitting in a tiny room with closed doors~

Again, this is a rather pointless discussion in this topic though, since RPG style battles with a disconnect between movement and fighting basically forces Boss Fights that are if not to my liking, then at least quite passable.

Well that was quick

IsaVulpes said:

SM has a mix of "Enemies that move as soon as you enter the room" and "Enemies that move as soon as you scroll the screen to them", with a set movement pattern for the former group and 1-2 patterns for the second one.
If you aren't speedrunning, this is diverse enough that you don't feel there is "rote memorization".

That is a matter of variety, or more accurately strategic variety (how you fight/deal with stuff). Strategic variety has nothing to do with "rote" actions or the degree of reaction/improvisation present. And yes, what you described is a situation where reflexes and improvisation (to me, the most fun thing you can ever do in a game) will ultimately disappear. Believe me I know, I've played lots and lots of arcade games that have as much or more variety then what you just described, but still become "rote" with any decent amount of time played.

Any game worth it's salt should have a variety of enemies that require unique strategies to optimally deal with. Feeling "diverse" is also nessecary but has nothing to do with how much the game encourages you to react or improvise.

IsaVulpes said:

If you aren't speedrunning, this is diverse enough that you don't feel there is "rote memorization". If you are speedrunning, this is SO much better than a plethora of RNG which would destroy entire runs just based on unlucky enemy patterns

Or you could just put in some RNG in a place where, if the player reacts optimally, the speed will be the same each time. Or put it in a place where the player can't go faster anyway (ie boss pulls away for 30 secs and shoots fireballs. Randomize the fire ball aim slightly so that you have to react, and it won't matter for speed since it's just dodging anyway and you can't hurt him).

But honestly, I don't care about speedrunning. I'd rather have a game be fun and replayable than a good speed game. And also I'd rather have a scoring system then speed. Buuuut personal preference.

IsaVulpes said:

Again, this is a rather pointless discussion in this topic though, since RPG style battles with a disconnect between movement and fighting basically forces Boss Fights that are if not to my liking, then at least quite passable.

Yeah I agree. This is off topic as hell. We could take it to pm's if you're still interested.

MooseHogBro said:

Well that was quick

Spoiler

What is that anyway? I'm curious.

Gamrdogg said:

What is that anyway? I'm curious.

Let's just say that's a screen from a well known site dedicated to fan-art of the more... NSFW category.

Kawalorn said:

Let's just say that's a screen from a well known site dedicated to fan-art of the more... NSFW category.

oh....OHHHHHHH. My goodness, so it begins then :/

I'm just surprised no one shipped Zebei with Ajna when he was revealed, but I guess it was too early and not with much sense. Plus there are less weirdos like me behind the fanbase

You know, now that certain artwork was brought up.

right then

I suppose this game will be best played on pad, but is there any chance of us playing it well enough on keyboard, stick, or hitbox? Just for funsies? Any idea of how many buttons/controls we will need?

Tank said:

Wait a sec.... is her stance supposed to look like T. Hawk's?

You could consider the possibility that nothing in this picture is even remotely close to final

About that picture, is the position of party members important like in certain RPGs like FF (front row etc)? Can/will Ajna be swapped/swappable with those other places?

Cheesedragon said:

Wait a sec.... is her stance supposed to look like T. Hawk's?

One hand is facing upwards, another downards

tl;dr, no

Woopee, confirmed date, get your wallets at the ready folks.

Wow I didn't even catch that, so September already? Great.
Also, I love that plush. Absolutely adorable. I didn't even know there were Skullgirls plushes as well, that Big Band looks great.

Now I just need to know how much money I have to throw at my screen to get the Tapir.