Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

cloudKing211 said:

Maybe rather than him have such high meterless damage outright, you give combo benefits based on hype levels. Such as:
2 levels: grab kicks and punches, as well as maybe blitzer only add undizzy once
3 levels: grab kicks and punches, as well as blitzer (?) Count as 1 hit towards scaling?

This would be nice but it seems complicated and this is going to make Beowulf extremely mechanical.

Also, serious request:

Fukua air down ball super, can we make it so it hits corner person while they are on floor and I'm in air trying to confirm off of stuff?

EDIT: Also, parasoul body guard doesn't stop bella reflectors

I hate chairless Beowulf combos so changes to hype would improve my QOL when trying to play that character.
Trying to do blitzer combos feels like such a chore sometimes because of all the adjustments, and I don't MIND character specific adjustments but.. I can't keep up with blitzer shit.
If I could just spend meter on hype combos as chairless, I DEFINITELY wouldn't care anymore. Chaining out of finishers etc would make life great and I'd be okay with him having his current combos and blitzers and etc if hype+meter was the means to do more things.

Maybe it would help Beo if he had 6 levels of hype and the level of Hype just buffed his things passively but with Seria like input or something that turns a special into a enhanced version to spend Hype like an EX in Street Fighter for a cost of Hype. That way with the max amount of Hype he could have it would act like a resource to allow for those possible Hype Gain buffs and repeated usage of Hype spending moves/super. So that you'd have to keep building your hype using your varies means to keep up your damage. and the Supers would use up a certain amount of hype whether you want it to or not. Might be a dumb idea but just shot balling here :P

Like if Beo has between 1-2 level of hype damage is increased by 2% on everything (Not counting using Specials and making them a EX version with Hype Spending)

3-4 being 4 % Damage increase and 5-6 a 6% damage increase.

gllt said:

I hate chairless Beowulf combos

That's what you get for using your +1 on block DP. It's a struggle.

Mike_Z said:

- Improve Wulfamania by giving you 2x hype uses during it.

Also, Mike, what do you mean by this?

Peacock vs Robo seems very hard, not sure what Peacock can do at full screen in that matchup besides try and yolo argus. I mean sure H plane is nice, but Robo can beam you out of the start up for 1K, other bombs are killed by beams and item drop takes more time to come down. Jumping beats the low beam sure, but what is Peacock supposed to do then, she either lands closer to Robo where she doesn't want to confront her or farther where it just starts over again. Fake teleport doesn't really help much as it is pretty slow and robo can react by rushing in. H/M teleport doesn't seem to work either as even a read beam isn't punished by teleport~jab. Also Raw Argus is made all the riskier as Peacock can't call shadow to help cover her as she'll just lose to beam. This matchup sucks lol

Rabbleflaggers said:

That's what you get for using your +1 on block DP. It's a struggle.

It's not a struggle I want even for that though, sorry. Chairless isn't bad imo and I'm not going to make him out to be, and having a tradeoff for +1 is fine and super fair and I wouldn't want my +1 on block strike invuln DP to lead into a better mode. We've been there with old headlesss and fully invincible safe head removal. And I have to get back to the chair as part of my tradeoff.

Lack of combos, fine, lack of universal stuff, fine, amount of brain power I have to put into which directions of blitzers to do at what spacing with what timing on what characters, with that spacing altered by whatever starter I do or what I'm confirming off of, not that fine honestly? This is personal, fwiw. You can solve it plenty of ways. It's avoidable. I'm just also not a huge fan of my other choices either. Do arm twice into grab mode into something, learn a lot of specific blitzer patterns and links off them anyways, spend meter and DHC out, find a way to tag to someone ( cMP tag to Eliza ), use an assist from grab mode/cHP/something else to get extra strings, etc

However tbh that's all just to get usable combos, not to also account for side switching (and its universalness) so that you can turn around to go back to the chair, space yourself to be able to pick it up or land on it, have the strings leftover to do so with no chair toss links, standard launchers, your one use high bounce on cHP, and your calculus level blitzer decisions. I mean there are matchups you want to be chairless in for, and possibly remain that way, but that doesn't mean you don't want to go back to the chair to have the option, especially when landing on it also helps with damage routes by spending hype through airwulf and then DHCing, like beo/excella would. A lot of beo metered damage is up front unless you do things like that. Also, if you're alone as beowulf on a team, of course you don't have assists, so that solution gets chucked out the window.

If he's supposed to be like that, then shrug, had discussion here you go. The fixes proposed for him in general would still increase the QOL of chairless so it's meaningless, I don't NEED to ask for any more than is already being offered. Whether or not I'm right about most of this isn't all that relevant, in light of that.

Also I'm not knocking on you with this, but I'd like to point out that (as your profile shows) you play duo beo/band and IIRC you also run atrain, this synergy is good because of the damage, hype levels, free side switches, and easier combos you gain access to as well as good DHCs to make up for the lack of damage on your end if your super came near the end of your combo.

So obviously doing this is a good solution to a lot of these problems (and props to your team choice because of that) but it doesn't mean Beo might not face them and just because one team synergy is very good doesn't change that. Things have to be considered about his viability on trios and with a slightly wider selection of assists or on his own.

ping @Bonanzo @Cadenza chairless beowulf opinions please. These are the people who's chairless opinions I'm interested in, moreso the former, but I care about Cadenza's opinion on chairless too because of the struggle he had with playing that character.

edit: a nice tldr would be that right now, when I play chairless, speaking only for myself, if I hit someone, I DHC because I have no reason to continue playing Beo when I could play someone else that could tag him back in to get the chair and have my +1 DP back and not have to do anything chairless does except neutral and a combo that amounts to cHP > arm/airwulf > whatever dhc

I'm gonna try to respond to these in an only slightly biased mindset.

Mike_Z said:

Pin on middle character deaths? :^S

Ehh...I feel that this would take away the actual "hype" of getting the pin. If you wanted to implement this change anyways, you wouldn't want the pin to deplete all of your hype like it does currently, otherwise it would be a huge waste of hype mid-match.

Mike_Z said:

Allow him to pin from Diving Wulfdog also.

I might not understand something quite right, but it would be weird to have the screen frozen on the ending frames of Wulfdog.

Mike_Z said:

All slams generate hype, those on chairs generate more.

Getting hype would be mad easy, although I guess you want it to be that way. It sounds like a cool change, nevertheless!

Mike_Z said:

Taunt gives...2 levels?

Same as above. It's pretty easy to get a taunt in with a lot of Beowulf's commonly-desired assists backing him up. I like this suggestion the least, as I feel like it would outshine all of the other methods of building hype.

Mike_Z said:

Increase hype generation from [s.LP]

I'm starting to see a trend here lol. I'd prefer this change over the taunt change, but I wouldn't do both.

Mike_Z said:

Allow him to pick up from Moonsault with hype use.

Sounds neat; anything besides a single action for one hype would be a little much though.

Mike_Z said:

Allow him to chain off all grab finishers except chair dance, inside or outside of Airwulf, with hype use. (Killa, Press, etc.) Chaining scales damage.

This. I have no idea if this change would be too good or not, but if you are trying to make hype a character-defining trait, this is definitely one of the best ways to do it.

Mike_Z said:

Allow grab finishers to be supercancelled with hype use?

Wouldn't this be overshadowed by the above change? It still sounds like a good change anyhow.

Mike_Z said:

Improve Wulfamania by giving you 2x hype uses during it.

Oh boy.
If I'm understanding this correctly, you're saying that with full hype, I could slam the opponent 6 times, get 1 head-butt,
and then use a finisher? That's 14.3k off of an overhead reset (dash, j.MK, s.HK, Wulfamania nonsense).
Considering some of the other changes would make getting hype SUPER easy, this sounds insanely busted.

Mike_Z said:

Extra Blitzer redirects (5?) with hype use...

This sounds like it could be trouble; there would need to be extensive testing.

Mike_Z said:

...or choosing to air recover to neutral after non-grounded Blitzer redirects with hype use.

This sounds like a great addition, but maybe that's just because I'm a Beowulf player. :^P

Mike_Z said:

Chair recall for 1 bar and 1 hype.

This is also a really nice change! If the chair came back to him quick enough, maybe this could also allow Beowulf to double snap in combo that started without his chair..?

Mike_Z said:

Super taunt?

level 5 mic drop plz
In all seriousness, if you mean a purely aesthetic super to end the round with (probably a level 5), I don't think anybody would be opposed to the idea, although he already has a bunch of disrespectful ways to finish off a match (chair-on outtake, fly into the sky via Wulf Blitzer, etc.)


Hope my input helps! [:

gllt said:

ping @Bonanzo @Cadenza chairless beowulf opinions please. These are the people who's chairless opinions I'm interested in, moreso the former, but I care about Cadenza's opinion on chairless too because of the struggle he had with playing that character.

Hello.

So my opinion on Chairless beo.
For the record i find the whole blitzer shit with the timing and which direction on all characters

for one, i am not a fan of throwing my chair at all. but i used H chair assist so i ended up coming in without the chair anyways. (btw how H chair whiffs at certain angles boggles my mind).

So to talk about how i feel about chairless beo i will talk about a case study team i was running.

Para/Squigly/Beo.
L shot/DNB/H chair.

Obvious good assist. but why beo anchor? Well the goal was to not play beo anchor. it was to get 2 bars for sniper XX DHC SBO. whether it was in a combo or neutral. i would then do beo tag for either the cross up to do c.mk into hard knockdown.
The advantage was that i had the CHAIR right there from the beginning.

Now as for Chairless beo? Personally it was my most hated thing about the character. I felt myself spending hours upon hours trying to get some carry combo into dog star press onto my chair. Like all my effort was put into getting to my chair and really felt boring TO ME, almost robotic at times.

I do like the character and i DO want to take him seriously one day but I seriously do not know how people deal with chairless beo. he feels slow, committed and heavily limited, which is fine, but right now i do not have the mindset nor do i like the idea of constantly trying to find routes to close the distance to my chair.

Swiftfox-Dash said:

Peacock vs Robo seems very hard, not sure what Peacock can do at full screen in that matchup besides try and yolo argus. I mean sure H plane is nice, but Robo can beam you out of the start up for 1K, other bombs are killed by beams and item drop takes more time to come down. Jumping beats the low beam sure, but what is Peacock supposed to do then, she either lands closer to Robo where she doesn't want to confront her or farther where it just starts over again. Fake teleport doesn't really help much as it is pretty slow and robo can react by rushing in. H/M teleport doesn't seem to work either as even a read beam isn't punished by teleport~jab. Also Raw Argus is made all the riskier as Peacock can't call shadow to help cover her as she'll just lose to beam. This matchup sucks lol

I agree, Robo seems really buff in this matchup. Not sure wheather to nerf robo zone or buff peacock zone or nothing.

@Mike_Z

Mike, about the current changes to weight of anubis, was continuing even if eliza is hit out of startup always been a thing.

I was playing squigly and I was playing an eliza who was using it alot, so i wanted to hit it out of startup with level 2 sing into sbo. I level 2 sing- sbo on the frame the puddle forms, hit eliza with sbo, and the command throw kept going and kidnapped squigly.

If this is a feature, then I will make sure not to try to punish her with that.

Cadenza said:

he feels slow, committed and heavily limited

Yeah, a lot of Beowulf's chairless combos revolve around using Blitzer loops, which can seem boring and repetitive for lots of people. There's other options, but some of them are pretty hard to pull off. You don't get as much variety chairless than with having your chair. Most of my damage, chairless, comes from doing counterhit sweeps.

If you can't learn how to play Beowulf without the chair, I wouldn't recommend picking him up. One of the most integral things in my opinion is "chair management." In certain matchups you need to know when to take off your chair and when to have it on (against Big band for example, just sweep him chairless).

(Also the chip you suffer from having no chair absolutely blows, but it's necessary to make him balanced)

Rabbleflaggers said:

Thing

Let me clarify.

I have no problems with how you have to take off the chair. What i did have a personal problem with is that once i wanted my chair back i had to mosey my way in and if the opponent like a parasoul player was competent, you were prolly never gonna get your chair ever again and prolly not live in neutral.This is mostly stems from the chair just staying in one place and since a player that is competent can just hog the space and make sure you never get the chair back.

Chair recall was certain times would HELPFUL. i would use all resources just to get the chair back against someone like parasoul or double.

My opinion on chairless beo is it is a good tool that can be used in certain matchups but is a detriment in a lot of them. Taking the chair off (or having it off thanks to an assist) is a real death sentence. Para,Double,Robo will actually kill you for leaving your chair off they can just super deal their damage and you really just have to hold that. They also have a large numbers of hits they can deal quickly so the reliance on armor for chairless normals is very punishing. If I had to see one change I would like to make those matchups more bearable for chairless is to see if you can limit the chip numbers from those large amounts of hits. I like the idea of taking chip chairless but not when I lose more health from blocking than taking the hit/mixup afterwards. Then I wouldnt feel as bad when beowulf is on incoming chairless against a para with 3 meter or a robo with a safe DHC.

EDIT: Actually an idea just crossed my mind how would people feel if hype decreased the amount of chip you take from blocking chairless? Something like 5/10/15? @Rabbleflaggers @Cadenza @Fuego

Liam said:

This is the main one I was thinking of, but maybe more hype rather than bar? (Long recovery or something has to be backed by an assist or you're dead?)

All the listed changes make him sound more finished and fun and it would be cool to play with / play against thoes mechanics rather than always having access to insane meterless damage > HDK > guess, while he ignores hype.

I agree with liam on this one I would be willing to trade 2 hype and half a bar over something like 1 hype and 1 bar. As for the rest of the changes you suggested mike I like all of the ones except the extra blitzers. That just seems like it would be a little overkill.

I get it. You want there to be a cost for throwing the chair. Unlike Fortune, though, the chair doesn't hover at the edge of the screen and doesn't have a way to slide or run back to me. I lose my launcher, which means I lose my BnB. I take more chip. The opponent can very easily control my access to the chair. On top of all of this, there's a cooldown to picking the chair back up, which I'm assuming is supposed to be to reduce chair tosses mid-combo but effectively makes it so that I cannot afford to not confirm off the chair if I use it in neutral/pressure (or my opponent WILL be able to absolutely set the terms by which I can retrieve it). This discourages people from playing more than half of the character.

Mid-match ref is absolutely something worth trying (with the timer frozen, obviously). Pinning the opponent is pretty much the only way to use meter to end a combo with Beowulf outside of DHCs and Moonsault. Arm does pitiful damage after full scaling and doesn't lead to hkd, and the damage from Airwulf has never encouraged me to explore it (although admittedly, Wulfdog > Killer might be worthwhile supposing I wanted to just give up my pressure). Meter is better spent on using Arm as a reversal (big damage, better invuln than HP Hurl, and I have a safe DHC) which doesn't kill my potential oki setup.

The idea of a character who opens combos by using meter is interesting and has come up in my own personal discussions! That's a direction Hype could go which could drive player creativity and make Beowulf more organic and less mechanical. If Gigantic Arm punches the opponent into the chair, let the chair knock the opponent higher so I can otg from any height instead of just when I hit aerial opponents. If this uses Hype, all the better, just make it knock the chair into the corner and set the chair back into cooldown mode. Allowing combos that start from max Hype to pin regardless of ending Hype also encourages me to start combos with Airwulf, confirm off Airwulf using Hype, do cool stuff, and then end the combo in a pin satisfactorily. That's something I want to do! That sounds interesting and cool to watch. That would encourage me to build Hype through things other than chasing the chair down and incidentally acquiring it.

More Blitzers sounds like a fast track to making Beowulf less interesting... unless you let me spend Hype to cancel only whiffed Blitzers as often as I like (this turns the Valentine matchup into "build Hype > Blitzer across the universe" instead of the hellish slog that it currently is). Better yet, let me spend Hype to cancel Grendel normals into Blitzer. Suddenly I don't feel like I'm playing slow-as-molasses SF4 without the chair!

Pulling the chair back using Hype is great! Spending meter to do that, too, is overkill, unless s.LP also slowly builds meter in addition to slowly building Hype. I can already spend meter to get the chair back; it's called a DHC. It's not like s.LP isn't useless compared to c.LP anyway (in before I have to point out the vulnerable portion of its hitbox, its slow speed, how short-ranged it is, and/or its inability to chain into itself).

If you reduce his damage overall, then so be it. I don't play Beowulf for the damage. In a perfect world, I'd be able to spend a ton of Hype to get Peacock levels of damage for similar meter costs. I don't expect that, though, despite the amount of setup and effort such a combo would take.

Bonanzo said:

EDIT: Actually an idea just crossed my mind how would people feel if hype decreased the amount of chip you take from blocking chairless?

I'm not sure. What I thought was maybe there was some type of "chip scaling" for Beo?? It would be weird to implement because the hits aren't counted as a combo, but maybe it could consecutively reduce chip damage taken after a few frames? The things that do real damage against Beo, chip wise, are multihitting supers. Be it Parasoul's level 3, Painwheel's death crawl, etc. The fact that you take more damage blocking Para's level 3 without a chair than just straight up not blocking seems strange.

random beowulf ideas:
-chairless beo gains hype faster
-every mic drop in a combo shows the hype levels (this might've been a thing before idk, probably annoying)
-knees and/or headbutts at the end of clinch supers cause crumple
-level 5 super steals lv 3 hype airwulf's "high risk maneuver" announcer line forever
-(probably dumb) level 5 is a holdable armored wolf shoot that when landed, does a special wulf press slam that spins in the air alot more than usual (the extra damage is from this) with the moon effect behind it: inspired by

edit: another level 5 idea: it's a counter super that uses that chair pickup kiss frame

Spending hype to special-cancel armored normals seems like a decent thing.

havick9 said:

-every mic drop in a combo shows the hype levels (this might've been a thing before idk, probably annoying)

You know, I did have it, but it was annoying...although in that whole time I never thought of using palette effects to show hype.
Red -> white -> blue.
:^P

another probably dumb idea: beowulf can chain into a slower, more damaging sHK that staggers at the cost of hype

cloudKing211 said:

Mike, about the current changes to weight of anubis, was continuing even if eliza is hit out of startup always been a thing.

I may have broken that.

@Mike_Z Would you be opposed to reducing the chip damage beowulf takes chairless? I mentioned a method earlier that I thought could work which would fit in with the current hype rework.
Hype could reduce the chairless chip by a scaling amount up to the max something like 10/15/20 or 5/10/15? It would make him feel a lot better about those big multi-hitting supers that punish him really hard. (Para lvl 3) (Catheads) (Lasers) Etc.

I also can't get cr. mp cr. hp xx m shadow to combo consistently. Sometimes the grab animation comes out super early, sometimes it grabs, and sometimes it touches them and does the animation but doesn't grab. Am I the only Fukua with this problem?

MegamanDS said:

I also can't get cr. mp cr. hp xx m shadow to combo consistently. Sometimes the grab animation comes out super early, sometimes it grabs, and sometimes it touches them and does the animation but doesn't grab. Am I the only Fukua with this problem?

Hold your shadow slightly and it will work. I suggest switching to s.mk s.hk tho.

Cadenza said:

Hold your shadow slightly and it will work. I suggest switching to s.mk s.hk tho.

I do that. I think it's character specific and height fall. Also don't wanna switch to s. hk because I used red bounce already. Thank you though

Just adjust your timing my guy facts

regarding hype: i like the idea of it being a resource you can spend to do cool stuff like extend combos or get conversions or whatever. i am very opposed to it being a passive buff you can build up and then sit on without expending to gain benefits. something like "you take less chairless chip depending on hype level" would end up being something he could hang onto pretty much all match given how it's already not HARD to get hype (people just dont really bother with it because it doesn't accomplish much). (passive buffs are also less interesting from a gameplay perspective imo)

Yeah but the idea would be he spends hype pretty freely after the changes meaning he wont kinda just horde it. (Atleast I hope that's the idea)

i wish...
- Brass Knuckles and Take the 'A' Train give ground recovery to opponent.
- Throw Tech makes easier.
・put a mark on the opponent's head.
・increase Throw Tech time. (about +2 frames)
・Throw Tech work by crouching LP+LK as well.
- characters can move after burst soon.

yukideumoreru said:

・Throw Tech work by crouching LP+LK as well.

wwwwwwwwww


edit: nothing against you personally, just that you reminded me of how many intentional things are in the game which probably boggle people who don't know the history of it

Teching throws is hard.

For the record, the reasons why crouch tech isn't in SG are because (A) you can't throw from crouching and (B) it gives everybody in the game a 50/50. Crouch tech turns what should be a read into an execution check with a safe option select (c.LK in games that allow crouch tech).

So, I wanted to ask what people think of Val's green vial affecting the hitstun of the opponent when they are otg'd (e.g. otg LK for instance). This would probably give her a couple cool new combo things she can do with green vial but the primary thing it would allow is that it would make her midscreen meterless airthrow conversion practical if you have a green vial loaded. Currently I think this is one of the few things types of hitstun that green vial doesn't affect. Maybe that would be too good, but I wanted to see what people's opinion on it is anyway.

AFAIK OTG vial leaves you in hit-stun until you hit the ground again at which point you get the blue bounce.
To change this, I feel they'd have to change how ground tech worked as a whole just for green vial because right now it's not a hit-stun issue but it's an issue of re-hitting the ground too early.

I love these buffs, however pw now has a combo that she didn't have before the flight buff:

Cr.lk,cr.mk xx fly DF jlk.

That didn't combo before and pw has to use jlp instead.

This is important because it allows jlp extensions further into her combos, specifically the UF jlp,jlk extension.


Not that I'm complaining or anything.. Just should be known as it does buff one of her combo paths.

yukideumoreru said:

Brass Knuckles and Take the 'A' Train give ground recovery to opponent.

If you use H Brass and any 'A' Train and still have your OTG, you have a hard knockdown. If he doesn't have his OTG, the opponent is free to tech roll.

Big Band has trouble getting in, as he is just a walking hitbox. His only tools to get in are, H Giant Step (which is extremely reactable), parrying (which can be difficult at times), cymbal clash, and emergency braking (which can easily be sweeped). Taking away his hard knockdown would be an unnecessary nerf, as most of his combos, after all, USE his OTG. His optimal midscreen combo uses it in the very beginning, as well as his corner ones.

It is nice to award Big Band for sacrificing a big chunk of his damage output to gain a hard knockdown.

Ah crap I completely missed the Fortune discussion

Well yeah she doesn't really need buffs or nerfs on either of her modes for all the reasons that have already been mentioned

Tracking Zoom would be a cool assist tho make it hit low as an assist too :p

Dime said:

I love these buffs, however pw now has a combo that she didn't have before the flight buff:

Cr.lk,cr.mk xx fly DF jlk.

That didn't combo before and pw has to use jlp instead.

This is important because it allows jlp extensions further into her combos, specifically the UF jlp,jlk extension.


Not that I'm complaining or anything.. Just should be known as it does buff one of her combo paths.

you could do that before if you stinger canceled

Clawsome Bombs said:

Tracking Zoom would be a cool assist tho make it hit low as an assist too :p

Zoom assist already tracks to the direction of the opponent. Also Zoom being a low would probably be too annoying for everyone (see older Headless fortune).