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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

I don't want her vortex removed either. I'm just confused why Fukua is being singled out when every character has a vortex that you have limited options of dealing with regardless of character you are doing it on. Granted Fukua did have the easiest vortex in the game. But let's be real here every character has a pretty easy vortex
 
MegamanDS said:
Isn't double the same way right now? The only way out of it was the same way out as Fukua's vortex. Isn't your beo 50/50 an extra 4-5k at full green bar right now? I'm not saying it to be argumentative, I'm just saying it to bring up the fact that it's not just Fukua who can do this type of stuff.

Midscreen Double's is in the same tier, but if you block it you're usually okay and can push her out. If you block Fukua she dive kicks into you and she's hard to push out, which is probably why I only considered hers to be a problem. Beowulf off overhead + brass cuz I only do it with brass does an absurb amount of damage yeah. But same as double if you blocked it he's out and he doesn't really have a way to get back in super fast so its back to neutral. It's also only high or low, and if you block high he can't go high again, which I think is easier to deal with than a left right that you can fake. Unlike Fukua neither of them can really do super powerful cross up mix ups in the corner (anymore, beowulf has ambiguous ones in the current retail version).


Cattfish said:
I know about land cancelling thanks friendo. Its not really about me being salty about losing to Beo a lot; it's just that I'm general that's a big button to him considering that he could potentially use more tools (which usually seems to be the goal in some character changes). I guess if i do get miffed I'm just in an area of "wow that hits from deep but no normal quite reaches him and he sticks his boot out and maybe we trade cool" but I'm not saying his range should go.

It's his best spacing tool and the only one that doesn't randomly get him killed. Blitzer is stupid and gets you killed vs a ton of the cast because he just goes into a kill me state when you retreat with it and if you land into them you're - so unless you're trying to reversal you're going to guess. His air to air buttons suck unless you want to bank on an early j.mk, but otherwise he's going to lose. His ground buttons to stop jump ins are slow, you have to do all of them preemptively.

J.HP doesn't give you anything unless you do it low enough to the ground to hit confirm off it, otherwise you need to commit to blitzer majority of the time during actual matches since air to air j.hp -> blitzer can be hard to combo on reaction and at a lot of good ranges it doesn't even combo. You can just dash block at him whenever he's at max J.hp ranges and get close to where it becomes scary to throw it out since its somewhat slow.

Doing J.hp high loses to a million things, you can't just jump in and do it. If you have an assist to cover you it helps, but try it by yourself and you're going to eat a ringlet, dp, robo st.hp, super, armored PW normal etc.

He could potentially use his other tools, he can already do that now, but I don't think you understand all his tools to actually say that...
There are other things about Beowulf that can be talked about like how his arm super is the GOAT at certain ranges, but nah J.HP is too good.
 
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We're changing her entire playstyle to remove this loop. If the problem with the loop is being unable to deal with Fukua after j.hk is blocked, what if we look at changing that?
 
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Zidiane said:
We're changing her entire playstyle to remove this loop. If the problem with the loop is being unable to deal with Fukua after j.hk is blocked, what if we look at changing that?
This new loop that Fox and Josh brought up has nothing to do with j. hk. It has to do with an ambiguous 50/50 after recovering from a cr. mp though. Her j. hk was already nerfed in hitbox, I don't think it needs to be nerfed more.
 
She's plays differently with new shadows. She has different things she can do and things she can't do. Even if most of it is what she already had plus more, having more is still being different.
MegamanDS said:
This new loop that Fox and Josh brought up has nothing to do with j. hk. It has to do with an ambiguous 50/50 after recovering from a cr. mp though. Her j. hk was already nerfed in hitbox, I don't think it needs to be nerfed more.
I didn't see the reset they found, did they post it somewhere? Is it possible on retail fukua?
 
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Huffy said:
Doesn't really work they call brass or most other assists...

I'm not saying it's too good, it's fine, but he would be much more interesting as a character if his entire gameplan wasn't jhp.

Do you play Beowulf?
 
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@Zidiane here is a very crude and very unpolished concept video I made a long time ago. It's not the loop but it shows what could be done.
 
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Huffy said:
I know how he functions, if you want an example, look at your own videos and count how many times you press jhp over any other button.

I don't think you do, because if you did know how he functions you wouldn't be making posts about J.hp.
 
dekillsage said:
I don't think you do, because if you did know how he functions you wouldn't be making posts about J.hp.
Once again I'm not saying it's too good, I'm saying it makes him extremely boring as a character.

Most people seem to press that button and practically nothing else in neutral, maybe they're just all bad, I don't know.
 
joshb911 said:
@Zidiane here is a very crude and very unpolished concept video I made a long time ago. It's not the loop but it shows what could be done.
Not to take away from your vid, some good stuff. But literally every single thing you did in that vid can be done off of lk shadow. Nothing was exclusive to m shadow
 
Lets couny the Beowulf j.hp's. 1. 2. 3. 3 Beowulf j.hp's! Ah ah ah!
 
Huffy said:
Once again I'm not saying it's too good, I'm saying it makes him extremely boring as a character.

Most people seem to press that button and practically nothing else in neutral, maybe they're just all bad, I don't know.

I disagree. I think all his spacing tools used correctly is very interesting. Just because J.hp is the most obvious doesn't mean it needs to be changed all of a sudden.

You also make it sound like characters push all their buttons at neutral. Beowulf doesn't move like other characters can to do that. If he had a normal dash you would see me doing dash cr.lk all day zzzz
 
zid no just because she lost m shadow doesnt mean her playstyle change raaaaaaaaAAAAAAA *HEADDESKS*
YOU HAVE NEW OPTIONS NOW
NEUTRAL IS EVEN BETTER
PLEASE USE THEM
M SHADOW IS NEVER COMING BACK
EVER
















EVER















EVER
 
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Beo's just very good at killing people who don't know him. So, just like every character in the game. He's just one of the newest.
 
SonicFox5000 said:
zid no just because she lost m shadow doesnt mean her playstyle change raaaaaaaaAAAAAAA *HEADDESKS*
YOU HAVE NEW OPTIONS NOW
NEUTRAL IS EVEN BETTER
PLEASE USE THEM
M SHADOW IS NEVER COMING BACK
New options = playstyle change.

I played quite a bit yesterday and used h shadow hold in neutral and I can play different than I can in retail. I enjoyed what I could do.

Change = different =/= worse/bad/should go back

Edit: I honestly just feel like making this big a change for the final patch when we could have tried other things first was a bit too heavy-handed a choice.
 
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Zidiane said:
New options = playstyle change.

I played quite a bit yesterday and used h shadow hold in neutral and I can play different than I can in retail. I enjoyed what I could do.

Change = different =/= worse/bad/should go back

Edit: I honestly just feel like making this big a change for the final patch when we could have tried other things first was a bit too heavy-handed a choice.
when we discovered how boring fukua was this was a way to make her interesting
seems to be working lol
no more simple loops my guy
 
SonicFox5000 said:
when we discovered how boring fukua was this was a way to make her interesting
seems to be working lol
no more simple loops my guy
I never even did the loops tbh. Ask sage, he was yelling at me for it.
 
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Zidiane said:
I never even did the loops tbh. Ask sage, he was yelling at me for it.
its just from the gist of what youve said about fukua its that you want m shadow back is what im getting. We keep saying her neutral hasnt changed much. Its literally the same. You just have to be more mindful of things now rather autopilot
 
Zidiane said:
I never even did the loops tbh. Ask sage, he was yelling at me for it.
I never did loops either :( I used m shadow to stop people from jumping in.

What if m shadow was drill? M shadow has turned into a combo extension. Would drill be a slightly better combo extension than a grab?
 
MegamanDS said:
I never did loops either :( I used m shadow to stop people from jumping in.

What if m shadow was drill? M shadow has turned into a combo extension. Would drill be a slightly better combo extension than a grab?
Take into account what you would lose if you got drill instead. Drill would be a pressure tool. She already has those. I prefer the grab. I can now high profile lows on a read and kill people its great.
 
SonicFox5000 said:
Take into account what you would lose if you got drill instead. Drill would be a pressure tool. She already has those. I prefer the grab. I can now high profile lows on a read and kill people its great.
What if it was a vertical drill? The animation of her super but only 4-5 hits with air recovery instead of red bounce
 
MegamanDS said:
What if it was a vertical drill? The animation of her super but only 4-5 hits with air recovery instead of red bounce
could be a little strong and i dont think mike wants her to have drill. Remember fukua is meant to be nerfed not better. Thats why these changes are here as compensation from the nerfs she just faced
 
SonicFox5000 said:
could be a little strong and i dont think mike wants her to have drill. Remember fukua is meant to be nerfed not better. Thats why these changes are here as compensation from the nerfs she just faced
I consider that a nerf still. It gets rid of the vortex. It would act similar to chair assist but worse since it has no green bounce. Or chun li assist in mvc2.
 
MegamanDS said:
I consider that a nerf still. It gets rid of the vortex. It would act similar to chair assist but worse since it has no green bounce. Or chun li assist in mvc2.
vortex is already gone with current m shadow. But i still like the reset option that exists from m shadow which is why id prefer it over a drill assist. Its just lockdown. I can do that on my own
 
SonicFox5000 said:
its just from the gist of what youve said about fukua its that you want m shadow back is what im getting. We keep saying her neutral hasnt changed much. Its literally the same. You just have to be more mindful of things now rather autopilot
Everything I'm saying about Fukua is not an extension of "I want old M shadow assist back"

Fukua may not have changed an incredible deal, but she has changed. She can hold high shadow and call low assist and fish for confirms, she can do this in neutral if given space or in specific setups, or after bff (after bff she gets left/right too). Those aren't things she could do as effectively before. There are more assist options she can use to greater effect now. She has more flexibility.

If the thing that was bad, m shadow loops, was what made her boring had another option to fix (sage said a big problem was she was hard to get away from if the opponent guessed correctly), I just don't know why we jumped straight into completely changing the way her shadows function altogether instead of messing with that a bit more.
 
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just out of curiosity, who came up with the idea of Shadow holds? was it Mike? or was it suggested to him?
 
Zidiane said:
Everything I'm saying about Fukua is not an extension of "I want old M shadow assist back"

Fukua may not have changed an incredible deal, but she has changed. She can hold high shadow and call low assist and fish for confirms, she can do this in neutral if given space or in specific setups, or after bff (after bff she gets left/right too). Those aren't things she could do as effectively before. There are more assist options she can use to greater effect now. She has more flexibility.

If the thing that was bad, m shadow loops, was what made her boring had another option to fix (sage said a big problem was she was hard to get away from if the opponent guessed correctly), I just don't know why we jumped straight into completely changing the way her shadows function altogether instead of messing with that a bit more.
They were changed to compensate not only for nerfing m shadow, but literally everything else. The compensation is now we get to set shadows for even better pressure and neutral control. And here RIGHT HERE
Zidiane said:
If the thing that was bad, m shadow loops, was what made her boring had another option to fix (sage said a big problem was she was hard to get away from if the opponent guessed correctly), I just don't know why we jumped straight into completely changing the way her shadows function altogether instead of messing with that a bit more.
You dont even notice your going back intro wanting M shadow back!! Old M shadow was a problem. Its now gone. So is her damage. Her neutral is the same. She now gets better pressure and better setups, at the cost of losing damage and pressure. But your saying "why didnt we adjust how she stays in afterwards like sage said" that never really WAS a problem. She always was/still is a pressure heavy block string character. I think the problem was the damage and accessibility/utility of the move as well as being a move that was unstoppable with in neutral. Even the NEW nerfed M shadow was even BETTER than before. Now its different. ANd its different GOOD. Just because the m shadow is different didnt mean her as a character has changed. Her playstyle is the same. If you wanna play fukua lik prepatch, you STILL CAN. You just wont get the same results. This is forcing you to use your head more. M shadow is probably the most autopilot move in the game. Its gone and i think its rightfully gone in return for an IMO better tool if you think about it. Id rather that move be nerfed rather acore design of her pressure to be nerfed.
 
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Yeah when I mentioned J.HK I mentioned it in the context of her reset loop. It was reset loop -> either it worked or J.HK kept you in on top of that. While that's a part of the problem... it wasn't the main problem I had with the reset loop, it just added salt on top of it.
 
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MegamanDS said:
just out of curiosity, who came up with the idea of Shadow holds? was it Mike? or was it suggested to him?
it was me
 
SonicFox5000 said:
You dont even notice your going back intro wanting M shadow back!!
I was asking a sincere question. Apparently a lot of discussion happened in a dm or in a discord or something that weren't public (I didn't see them at least), and the changes we have now are the result of that conversation(s). From an outside perspective, from my perspective, the changes seem sudden and out of nowhere. I was asking a question about what went into this change and if anyone considered other avenues, because I was not privy to the discussions.

Her neutral is the same. She now gets better pressure and better setups, at the cost of losing damage and pressure.

Even the NEW nerfed M shadow was even BETTER than before. Now its different. ANd its different GOOD.

If you wanna play fukua lik prepatch, you STILL CAN. You just wont get the same results.
She can't be the same and better/worse/different at the same time. Even if she is still a heavy block string character, even if she still functions well, even if she can do 95% of the things she could do, there a parts of her neutral and pressure that are different. That's what I was saying earlier, I don't know why that's a controversial point to make.

But your saying "why didnt we adjust how she stays in afterwards like sage said" that never really WAS a problem.
I was just going off what sage said. I wasn't the one who thought it was a problem, so i was going off what the guys who are saying it is a problem are saying. He said a big problem was that you couldn't get her off you (though he just said it wasn't that serious so idk?) so I just assumed that was a big problem.
 
ok simple question are you ok with old M shadow being forever gone y or n

if your answer is n do not respond
if answer is y please tell me why
answering yes makes me think that you are more about fukua than just wanting to change other stuff than m shadow @Zidiane
Edit: Also she got BETTER pressure but you dont have to use it. And she got better neutral but you dont have to use it. You havent told me anything else about fukua except M shadow this whole thread
DOUBLE EDIT: NOTHING IS STOPPING YOU FROM PLAYING OLD FUKUA except m shadow

She has new tools. YOU ACTUALLY dont have to use them if you dont want to. they are "HEY you can add this to your game if ya want"
If you want to go back and play old fukua go ahead just be prepared not to do well. M shadow is gone. Please give me something you want changed because you are being super vague other than M shadow.
 
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I don't want Fukua to lose a shadow when she is forced to block. I think she should only lose a shadow if she blocks prior to release of shadow. I still think you should be able to hit a shadow but not cause it to disappear post release when Fukua blocks cause you're baiting a mash. I want to be rewarded for making a read not feel punished and lose my conversion options
 
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Peacock is fun, her beta changes are very fun I think she is fun to play with bombs and teleport and lenny and m bang shooting them outside the fucking screen like god damn what the fuck is even hapening omh godf.,
 
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