Salty Updates 21 Feb 2014

Cerebella

• Now slightly easier to combo off Cerebella's air throw at any height.

Nice. Finally an air throw mixup that keeps going.

• Cerebella
  • Now slightly easier to combo off Cerebella's air throw at any height.
  • You can now reflect projectiles within the first frame.

Yaaaaaaaaaay!

Thanks for writing this out!
I'm still not used to Parasouls shot hitting Double and Valentine, I keep going for launchers or Shot M > Silent Scope, I really like the change though.

With this and the discovery of ground grab xx pummel horse, Bella normal grabs are now a threat. =)

I would have laughed if anyone said "Bella's normal grabs are a threat" a month ago.

Nice to see BB getting nearly done now.

Yeah, she actually feels like a grappler now imo.

Very upset over only one buer cancel per combo. Painwheel has bad reversal options and her mobility with flight is average at best and ground movement is pretty bad. I feel like its comparable to bella, who has big damage output in exchange for bad mobility and no air reversal. pw doesn't even out damage bella. I don't see pw gaining much from unfly, as there are few matches where she wants to fly all the time anyways, and being able to block out of flight is just making you block. I've tested some of the unfly options out, and you can't get much pressure or attacks in after unflying from max neutral height either (overall I'd rather have the damage than the utility from unfly.) I am pretty adamant that she deserves the damage she gets. I'm no @Mike_Z, but I don't understand why she only would get one. I would even be happy with 2, but 1 feels like overkill to me. I really want to hear reasoning behind this, because generally I don't complain about nerfs, but this really gets me heated.

edit: in addition, why would I want to unfly and block when I can air armor xx air super. Or armor a projectile and fly to continue pressure.

WarpedEcho said:

pw doesn't even out damage bella.

Bella's a grappler. Grapplers are supposed to do more damage than non-grapplers.

Zidiane said:

Bella's a grappler. Grapplers are supposed to do more damage than non-grapplers.

I wasn't complaining about pw dealing less damage than her. I'm fine with that. I am complaining that for the amount of mobility options (or rather lack thereof) and reversal options, pw deserves the amount of damage she gets. Compared to the rest of the cast, she moves much slower on the ground and only average in the air compared to the rest of the cast considering people can catch up to you if you're flying by super jumping as well.

Why block when I can super #skullgirlsplayers

WarpedEcho said:

edit: in addition, why would I want to unfly and block when I can air armor xx air super. Or armor a projectile and fly to continue pressure.

Being able to block instead of always gambling on j.hp armor into Flight cancel is actually good. And as for PW's lack of mobility options, she can fly...that's the best mobility option in the game. For everybody complaining about the damage nerfs though, how much damage are you getting now? I'm hearing her mid-screen bnb is around the same while her optimized corner combo is 500 less? What's the problem?

konkrete said:

Why block when I can super #skullgirlsplayers

LOL! Instant signature!

WarpedEcho said:

Very upset over only one buer cancel per combo. Painwheel has bad reversal options and her mobility with flight is average at best and ground movement is pretty bad. I feel like its comparable to bella, who has big damage output in exchange for bad mobility and no air reversal.

But PW has an air reversal. And air mobility. And air armor. And she flies forward faster than Bella dashes or dash-jumps. In fact she flies forward as fast as Bella's command run, but Painwheel gets to call assists/do normals/move around(/and now block) out of flight, whereas Bella can't do any of those things out of run.
You can test it yourself, fly low to the ground and have her push against Cerebella as she does things.

WarpedEcho said:

I don't see pw gaining much from unfly, as there are few matches where she wants to fly all the time anyways, and being able to block out of flight is just making you block.

Unfly helps her have many more matches where she'd want to be flying. That's kinda the point of it.
If you don't think being able to block at any time out of fly is a very important improvement that will alter a lot of matchups, I dunno what to say.
Unfly, pushblock to stay stationary, refly lets her get around things that beat armor. It lets her bait multihit moves and supers. It lets her fly and call assists and then block instead of getting hit and having the assist be stopped. Try considering unfly->pushblock the equivalent of infinite armor hits on j.HP in terms of neutral mobility.

WarpedEcho said:

I am pretty adamant that she deserves the damage she gets. I'm no @Mike_Z, but I don't understand why she only would get one. I would even be happy with 2, but 1 feels like overkill to me. I really want to hear reasoning behind this, because generally I don't complain about nerfs, but this really gets me heated.

2 is what she normally gets, so "I would even be happy with 2" is a little bit of an odd statement, since the only step down from what she already has...is 1. Of course you'd be happy with 2, it's what she has now.
If you read the PW combo thread, she's losing around 600 dmg right now from that, and that only in the corner and only off Buer loops. The reason for this specific change instead of say, less damage on Buers overall, is because it doesn't affect midscreen Buer combos.

So, my reasoning was: unfly helps her in bad matchups more than the (I assumed) ~1.5k damage loss would hurt; it turned out to be much less damage lost than that, which still doesn't bother me.

Mike_Z said:

snip.

I was thinking in terms of corner combos, and my initial upset-ness clouded my judgement I think. Like how Krackatoa's combos do like 4-5 buer cancels. Midscreen you only really ever do 2 (like you said, which I don't really have a problem with now even with one) from my knowledge anyways. I really appreciate the response, and am feeling better about the changes now. Thanks

edit: def was thinking in terms of losing corner stuff. Midscreen the two was nice, but when you got the somewhat close to the corner combo confirms, thats when you could start abusing the 3+ buer cancels per combo, and was the reasoning behind me being fine with two

WarpedEcho said:

edit: def was thinking in terms of losing corner stuff. Midscreen the two was nice, but when you got the somewhat close to the corner combo confirms, thats when you could start abusing the 3+ buer cancels per combo, and was the reasoning behind me being fine with two

Er...I think you misunderstood the change?
You can no longer do Buer->fly->another fly before landing. You can still do Buer->fly->land->whatever->fly. You just can't fly again in the same jump after flying from a Buer, there's no limit on the number of times you can fly during a combo.

("the number of times you can fly" sounds better than "the number of flies" even though they are logically equivalent and the former phrase is much longer. Go English!)

Loving the finished Under the Bridge theme. Can't wait to see what's being cooked up for Glass Canopy.

Mike_Z said:

Er...I think you misunderstood the change?
You can no longer do Buer->fly->another fly before landing. You can still do Buer->fly->land->whatever->fly. You just can't fly again in the same jump after flying from a Buer, there's no limit on the number of times you can fly during a combo.

I guess I did misunderstand haha, I thought it was going to be like filia's only one hairball dash cancel per combo deal. Now I can confidently say, IT'S NOTHING
（　≖‿≖）

Hi hello as a pretty good painwheel player, i can say i am absolutely fine with the Buer nerf, and I am loving unfly now that i can actually punish stuff when landing