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Another training diary that no one will read or care about

I havent played the matchup since beta, but even with Eliza having new hurtboxes this seems kinda dubious... Eliza's go to air to air against pw is Eliza's j.mk (14 frame startup), painwheels go to aerial attack is j.mp 22 frame startup) if you make sure to close distance you shouldnt really be losing to painwheels priority imho since you have faster buttons with more range to boot. Try closing in on painwheel instead of hanging back is what i would say... As far as theory goes anyways.
You would think so, but it doesn't work in practice. The issue is PW's active frames + disjoint hitboxes. Yeah, if you're already at very close range, you can beat her out, but you can't really jump at her from midrange with the intent to hit a button because she can hit a button really early (well out of your j.mk range), and if you're in the air, you're stuck either blocking or calling DP assist (which, of course, is never really *bad* against PW, but she can armor through that and every character has that anyways), or you're getting hit.

If an analogy helps, think trying to jump at a Val that does jump back j.hk ADC j.mp. Except PW's hitboxes are even better and she's got armor.
 
Yeah i can see that... Makes sense since thats how i play the matchup... But it didnt work well before. Perhaps you could start hp dping those jumpback j.mp wiffs from pw?


The style you are talking about is a wiffing style, so using a long range invincible is a great way to get people to stop using spacial fillers like that.


Just a thought.
 
I smoke rocks
Is this an attempt to say "Use Bella level 3 more goddammit!", or am I misinterpreting you entirely?
 
No I just smoke rocks
 
Note to self: a Bella combo in the corner that ends in level 3 can be followed up by Diamond Dynamo or Excellabella. Thanks to Outlaw Spike for pointing that one out to me!
 
I'm so fucking lost against Double. Her j.hp beats absolutely every single thing I fucking do, and then there's catheads.

Halp.
 
Make her whiff the j.hp and attack her when she lands. Or try sek against her. Or try hp dp against her j.hp or empty jump into her j.hp and call your invincible assist to mess her up. Super jump then airdash above her for height priority.

Don't know if any of that would work but it's worth a go.
 
I should clarify, it's not just Eliza. It's in general; that character is absolutely fucking me up. Even when she's on point.
 
Double give me troubles to. The best thing is to zone her outside of her j.hp range. And make her pay for approaching you. No one wants to be inside doubles j.hp range, not even another double. You gotta respect the j.hp. Having said that, of you have a move faster than 17 frames then you can dash jump against double and beat j.hp before it becomes active. And she has bad defense as well so shes
Kinda ass to pressure.
 
Note to self: a Bella combo in the corner that ends in level 3 can be followed up by Diamond Dynamo or Excellabella. Thanks to Outlaw Spike for pointing that one out to me!
Uh, watch out that's character specific. At least for dynamo.
Excellebella can hit some chars and keep them in the corner, but for most it requires to come out the other way. And good luck inputing that reliably :/
 
@dapurplesharpie requested an Eliza guide from me. Well, ask and ye shall recieve....

(Note that this is based on, like, one month of experience with the character. Still, it's better than what you're doing with her...)

So, the basics: unlike most characters in Skullgirls whose neutral game revolves around disjoint hitboxes and active frames, Eliza's key moves all project her hurtboxes at least as far forward as her hitboxes, frequently further. The trade-off is that Eliza's pokes are incredibly fast for the very long range that they cover. The basic key to Eliza neutral is to space her pokes so that you're in range as soon as they're active, rather than trying to "jump in" with an attack that's active for a long period of time. It's less like playing typical Skullgirls neutral, and more like playing c.mk/sweep footsies in a Ryu mirror in SF2.

As far as the nuts-n-bolts of neutral, you can basically divide her matchups into three categories:
Val, Painwheel, Squigly. Possibly Double, I don't have enough experience in that matchup yet: These fuckers are going to dive on you with active hitboxes, but their kinda "floaty" movement gives you room to anti-air from the ground. Rely heavily on playing lame with MK Servant; do it at a range where they won't counter-hit you out of startup (which means you'll have to read the jump-in, rather than triggering when they're within Servant range). It's easier if you have a DP assist, but it's not required. If you somehow find yourself in neutral at a close range where they haven't already done some crap like "jump back -> air dash -> some active normal" (or, in Squigly's case, if you're somehow in a position where she's on the ground at close range and one of you isn't blocking/getting hit), jump and gauge whether you think they're going to jump before you or not. If you think they will jump first, j.mk; if you think you will jump first, IAD j.lk, or possibly c.lk if you're *very* confident in your read (it's an amazing ground poke -- amazing range for 7F startup -- but if you do c.lk and they jump over it, RIP in pieces you). If you think they'll jump, but after you (or at least not earlier), and they're very close, Eliza's airthrow is amazing and leads to a full combo.

Peacock, Fukua, Big Band: Against these fuckers' fullscreen nonsense, just sweep, and cancel into an appropriate special before you hit; good choices are MK servant, HP Shoryu, or LK servant, depending on what they're doing. Once you're to midrange close, do just like the "close range no active normals bullshit" in the above paragraph. Oh, and HK servant can be hilarious against Peacock and Band. Just toss it out there if Peacock is throwing shit mindlessly, or if Band decides he doesn't want to do anything but play his "herpaderp, Brass, A-Train, or Giant Step!" game.

Everyone else: Get to a good range, and do the "close range no active normals" gameplan. If you want to gain distance from midrange (useful against 4-Chan, in the Eliza mirror, and, to a lesser extent, against Filia), an instant jump-back j.hk should do the trick. S.lp is your main tool to stuff midrange Filia IAD bullshit (and I really should do a better job of taking my own advice here...). Toss some Servants around against Parasoul, as well.

OFFENSE:
First off, learn a combo with a restand (that's going to be REALLY important in just a second). The one you'll probably want that everyone does is:
some kind of hit confirm and then launch -> jump cancel -> j.mp -> j.hp
ADC
j.lk -> j.mp -> j.hp (the j.hp restands)
c.mk -> s.hpx2 -> lk spiral
s.lk (2-frame link, will take some practice to get the timing on this) -> c.mk -> s.hpx2 -> hk spiral -> super (don't end with a Lady of Slaughter in the corner without DHCing unless it will kill, since that's unsafe on hit in the corner).

Note that this doesn't work on Double. On Double, swap the order of the air chains if it won't trigger IPS with the starter you used; if it would trigger IPS at midscreen, do launch -> j.mk -> air HP Sekhmet Summon -> land -> sekhmet M -> sekhmet H -> recall -> c.mk -> ground chain shit. In the corner, you can just keep the normal airchain order, but replace the j.mp -> j.hp with a j.mk -> j.hk.

The reason you need that restand is because it's the basis for your reset game. You're probably thinking "but Cynical, everyone reversals after a restand!" Well, if you've got assists, you can convince people not to do that with assist call -> empty neutral jump and block -> more pressure after confirming that they blocked the assist (or, at least, didn't super or DP; sometimes someone will try to combo the assist when you do this, but if they do, you just kill them for being retarded), but you can *also* fuck with the reversal timing by using some jabs after the restand. If they're just mashing the motion instead of trying to time it, it'll fail to come out about half the time; the math on that generally works in your favor, since it's you eating a super vs. them eating another reset into combo(possible exception: Big Band. Fucker.) So, once you've done the restand (and your desired number of jabs), your mixup is high/low/throw, and crossup at midscreen.

High options:
Instant j.hp ADC j.lk j.hp
IAD j.lk j.hp (I prefer this one against Double, since it means that IPS won't fuck me if I reverse the order of the air chains. Also really nice at midscreen, since it crosses up at seemingly entirely random times.)
IAD j.hp (nice crossup at midscreen; worthless in the corner)

Low option:
If you're going low right off the restand, there's no reason to not just do a slightly delayed c.lk (delayed just enough so that it won't combo). If you're going low off of jabs, a late-chained c.mk is better. Just be ready to cancel into servant or L spiral on block.

Throw option:
Seriously, just fucking throw. Although I'd only do this in the corner for the most part, the midscreen follow-up is a bitch.

DEFENSE:
Well, your reversal options are ass other than level 3. Learn to block and pushblock, or you're fucked.

Well, that basically covers it. There's the guide you asked for, Sharpie!
 
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So, @Hirokuni apparently really hates watching me call assist + neutral jump. I do it for two reasons; Hirokuni, I'd be interested in knowing how you cover both of these scnearios:

1. Expected reversal. If they do reversal, it gets blocked and punished; if they were teching a throw, I'm not on the ground to get thrown; if they were blocking, they block the assist and then I can continue pressuring/go for a mixup.
2. Undizzy maxed. Similar idea, except the goal here is to give the bar time to go down a bit so I have undizzy to work with, without letting them tech out of the corner.
 
tbh i just hate how you call assist at neutral and expect me to fall into the pillar pit.
Edit: TO ME that's like an insult to me.
So, making an assist call that may not be 100% optimal (although people do jump into it all the damn time, so that's another story...) is disrespectful and insulting, but teabagging constantly is isn't?

K.

#SkulgirlsCommunity.
 
So, making an assist call that may not be 100% optimal (although people do jump into it all the damn time, so that's another story...) is disrespectful and insulting, but teabagging constantly is isn't?

K.

#SkulgirlsCommunity.
both are insulting. Idiot. but don't be making stupid assist calls and expect ME or any OTHER competent player to just fall for it.

People will jump but we can also air block so like...?

Oh and my footnote.

OHMAHGODELIZ2GUD
RunPIllarBehindElizaandHopeICatch.
SO GUD SO GUD SO GUD.

*unwatches*
 
both are insulting. Idiot. but don't be making stupid assist calls and expect ME or any OTHER competent player to just fall for it.

People will jump but we can also air block so like...?
Care to repost that saltpost you made here then after losing the FT7 against my team with your solo Fukua?

EVERYONE gets hit by AA assists sometimes. Stop pretending that you're an exception.
 
So, @Hirokuni apparently really hates watching me call assist + neutral jump. I do it for two reasons; Hirokuni, I'd be interested in knowing how you cover both of these scnearios:

1. Expected reversal. If they do reversal, it gets blocked and punished; if they were teching a throw, I'm not on the ground to get thrown; if they were blocking, they block the assist and then I can continue pressuring/go for a mixup.
2. Undizzy maxed. Similar idea, except the goal here is to give the bar time to go down a bit so I have undizzy to work with, without letting them tech out of the corner.

There are better ways to bait a reversal from someone if you're expecting it (I suppose you wouldn't know them since you hate spending time in training mode). Just because the opponent blocked an assist call doesn't mean you should go in. They can still reversal out of it (a little harder if you had Cerecopter) after blockstun ends, and it would be worse for you since you would go for your normal "pressure or mixups", then both you and your assist would get caught by the reversal. Considering how reliant you are on your assists, that would be especially crippling to you.

If Undizzy is maxed, you can go for a burst bait in the air, tick throw in the air, etc. so you don't have to worry about Dynamo or what have you. Valentine had a pretty nasty setup for this, where it was a quick burst bait that would very quickly tick into a throw if you can confirm that your opponent won't press a button.

Overall, I feel that call assist + neutral jump is very inefficient for what you're going for. Go into the lab and figure out actual setups to counter reversals, preferably those that provide a true advantage to you even if the opponent doesn't reversal.

Also, I would reeeeeeaaaaaalllly like it if you played Bella that's more than just double jump j.HK. It's a shame so many people got caught by it. And learn actual mixups with her.
 
Care to repost that saltpost you made here then after losing the FT7 against my team with your solo Fukua?

EVERYONE gets hit by AA assists sometimes. Stop pretending that you're an exception.
was i? i was not. but stop calling assist like some dunce cause you have lack of neutral.
BTW solo fukua vs your trio team and still won ft10. we can easily arrange a runback and i will show you how much YOUR PARASOUL NEEDS WORKS. how much YOUR ELIZA NEEDS WORK ON HER OWN and holy shit lets talk about bella?
the only reasons you kept getting far in that set after all was because i wanted to see what exactly you liked to do. so i mashed drill. you said eliza can close in on fukua but i've yet to see you do it WITHOUT an assist.

Overall if there was any advice to give. it would be TO LEARN YOUR FUCKING CHARACTERS. and STOP RAW TAGGING UNDER PRESSURE oh and training mode is there for a reason*unwatches again*
 
There are better ways to bait a reversal from someone if you're expecting it (I suppose you wouldn't know them since you hate spending time in training mode). Just because the opponent blocked an assist call doesn't mean you should go in. They can still reversal out of it (a little harder if you had Cerecopter) after blockstun ends, and it would be worse for you since you would go for your normal "pressure or mixups", then both you and your assist would get caught by the reversal. Considering how reliant you are on your assists, that would be especially crippling to you.

If Undizzy is maxed, you can go for a burst bait in the air, tick throw in the air, etc. so you don't have to worry about Dynamo or what have you. Valentine had a pretty nasty setup for this, where it was a quick burst bait that would very quickly tick into a throw if you can confirm that your opponent won't press a button.

Overall, I feel that call assist + neutral jump is very inefficient for what you're going for. Go into the lab and figure out actual setups to counter reversals, preferably those that provide a true advantage to you even if the opponent doesn't reversal.

Also, I would reeeeeeaaaaaalllly like it if you played Bella that's more than just double jump j.HK. It's a shame so many people got caught by it. And learn actual mixups with her.
Any ideas on what kind of setups I should be looking for that beat reversals (aside from "IAD into the Pillar blind spot" stuff)? I mean, especially in Eliza, with her hitboxes, if I've got a hitbox anywhere near them, there's a hurtbox that'll get blasted by any reversal, and if I do a Sekhmet special to try to blow through it, not only can it only be overhead, but it's *totally* unsafe on block, so it's an incredibly hard read.

EDIT: It's interesting that you mention Copter like that, since I've been occasionally playing with it recently for exactly that reason. So far, the conclusion though has just been "not good enough to lose the ability to punch an assist in the face with LnL".

(Also, how on earth is low/throw not an "actual mixup"? It's a true 50/50...)
 
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You're diary has come a long way. I remember when you used to be salty and not your opponents lol

Anyways, there are no surefire ways to beat reversals. You can certainly bait them, but there isn't a way to completely get around them.

If you think the opponent mashes reversal, the best counter is a burst bait. If you catch them hitting buttons it can give you a huge combo and possibly an easy character kill.

I haven't played you much recently so I can't give advice on the mixups, but I can say Bella had a lot more gong for her than just low throws. Especially annoying is assist into Kancho feint, c.MK into run stop, and other fun stuff.
 
Ugh, I wish I could actually remember to do the shit I practice in training mode in real games.
 
c.MK into run stop
Aaaaaaah this is my favorite
So much so, I forget everything else.
 
Ugh, I wish I could actually remember to do the shit I practice in training mode in real games.

The trick to that is to just force yourself to only do the new stuff for a bunch of games. It'll lose you a bunch of games but w/e, you're learning more.
 
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FUCK, why the GODDAMN HELL did I have to get sick with strep throat a few days before a San Antonio monthly that I'd have actually been able to make it to?

(Yes, unrelated to any actual Skullgirls playing or training, I know. I'm posting it here anyways.)
 
Get better soon dude :(
 
Awwww that sucks dude :( I dunno if you already went to your Primary care provider to get diagnosed/get on antibiotics yet, but if you did AND were feeling better, you maaaaybe would be able to still go and play if you took a bunch of precautions and had some dudes helping you out (like you shouldn't touch the console, someone else would have to plug in yours stick or something, stay far away from others and things when you eat), all coming from the medical advice I just asked around from the clinic I work at. It's a risk but not impossible if you really were feeling better.

Though on the other hand, you might still feel too shitty to play (I"d probably feel that way too), so it's no ones fault. Really sucks dude and I hope you feel better.


VVVV Good on you then, rest well
 
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I went to see my doctor today, which is how it was diagnosed; I'm on antibiotics now.

Unfortunately, since San Antonio plays on PS3, and I have an XBox stick (all of DFW plays on PC), I have to borrow a stick to play with those guys. Not a safe option right now. And yeah, it's a 5 hour drive (and I'd have to drive there and back in the same day), so it's really not happening.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy

A brief article on my relationship with this game.

It doesn't matter how much I practice at this point; I can't do reversals to get out of resets, which means I can't win beyond intermediate level.

Why am I still trying? It won't help anything. Hopscawtch has about the same time in game as I do, and he 10-1'd me earlier with absolutely no effort, in a matchup he has no experience in, because I can't make anyone respect anything when I'm on defense.
 
Well, looks like I'm done with the game for a while.

Another stick smashed out of rage, and I don't have the money to buy another right now.