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Anti Eliza Thread

What is this, the Cammy forum?

While the quote is an extreme, its still true that Eliza has bad defensive options given that her only reversals are level 3 (which is good but heavy commitment and can be meatied) and DP which doesn't hit anyone even slightly in the air, has actual trouble on the multiple hits at the far distances making it useless, and is completely ground throwable. That's not to say that she has no defense and she's completely dead anytime she's knocked down, because at the very least it's a 50/50 low/throw, but her options truly are extremely limited compared to every other character in the game. It is very easy to bait out and catch Eliza when she's knocked down with setups, much the same way it is against peacock whom everyone agrees has terrible defense similarly.

That said, I do think Eliza is better than a lot of people are giving her credit for, like the situation with older Fukua and SF4 Cammy defenders as you said.

While it is true that fast air normals can beat her out, you aren't getting anything out of them without chaining into something else, and Liza's body is so far in the back that said followup will rarely connect.

She on the other hand is pretty much guaranteed a combo on hit, which makes the risk/reward kinda iffy and the whole "beating jMK" business a bit harder than it sounds

It's not about getting the followup, it's about completely shutting down her approach to make her commit. Once you start anti-airing jMK, you close in distance on her while you have the momentum (which beyond the rest of my point, Eliza hates, because her defense is not good and her tools can't stop a lot of good jumpins, not even horus thanks to his long startup), which is where you make her commit and where its super easy to air grab her air approaches and her ground options are extremely limited. Much like any MU works for any fighting game, it's all about taking away the opponents options.

The thing about Eliza jMK is that unlike most other long tools in the game, even titan knuckle, is that it is EXTREMELY easy to counter the button once you have a general read about your opponents air patterns. It really can't be stated enough that THAT is the thing about it; I can't NOT anti air that button no matter what character I try to play with because of how easy it is. Every character has at least 1 ground and 1 air button that can be thrown from extremely safe ranges that catch Eliza's jMK and all of which have to make her commit even more to offense which is in your favor.

This isn't to say jMK is one of the best aerial tools in the game, cause it is. Nor is it saying that Eliza can't counter-play against Anti-Air approaches, cause she can do that easily too. But as-is the general non-descript strategy to get in on zoners is "jump in and close in distance", the general strategy for eliza is "Anti air her obviously big buttons and limited approaches to shut down her offense". This is why PW was/is tough for a bunch of Elizas (because PW has super big meaty buttons that she can put out whenever and Eliza can barely challenge that). I sort of look at it like I look at Parasoul vs Filia where Eliza is always Filia (with more options to play with); the MU is best played when you correctly respond to shutting down the opponents offense, doing that until you can scare them into doing something very unsafe or cornering them so that you can go in at the right time. Funnily enough, a lot of people also think Parasoul vs Eliza is good for Para *because* Parasoul can execute that general gameplan pretty well due to her good air buttons and general hitboxes.

Sekhmet is bullshit though so yeah just run away and be scared of her because she can just run in with YOLO axes and not much to do about that.

Is there any legitimate way of beating axe covered by an assist? It seems like there's no way to punish whatever Sekhmet throws out at that point. Also, is there any sort of buffer period when punishing axe with grab, or do I just have to do it in a 2 frame window? It seems like a lot of time she just jumps out, especially online.

It depends heavily on the setup that you have to be specific on what it is. If it's something with ground axe, keep in mind that ground axe is completely ground throwable so as long as you get a grab early you can grab out of potential setups. If they use an assist to cover the timing of Axes, keep in mind Pushblocking to save yourself from a high/low and often times a PBGC-throw can catch the tail end of the setup (again only if its with ground buttons). If they are using a specific setup with low assist, it works the same way as other setups with low assist, where you need to see the timing of what comes first (the high or the low) and react fast enough to the other part (this is pretty hard to do but its worth learning since Low assists are becoming more and more common and there is a way to block every one of those setups even if its difficult).

If they are doing a setup with air axe, idk you're boned.
 
its still true that Eliza has bad defensive options
Of course that's true; I've been saying that everywhere for a good while.
But Upperkhat is one of the best neutralgame specials, to call it "useless outside of combos and PBGC" is a joke..
 
Of course that's true; I've been saying that everywhere for a good while.
But Upperkhat is one of the best neutralgame specials, to call it "useless outside of combos and PBGC" is a joke..

That one you'll have to explain to me, cause I don't even think it's Eliza's best special move (even barring sekhmet calls)
 
The H version comes out REALLY fast for how far it reaches so it's usually safe to throw out at the right range, it leaves her in a great position when it hits a projectile or an assist and can lead into 9k combos anywhere on the screen in most cases
 
So, it's like half the dps in the game except it doesn't work as a panic button?
 
So, it's like half the dps in the game except it doesn't work as a panic button?
Sure, if you regularly use Beat Extend at midrange, Pillar is your main anti-zoning tool, and roundstart Updo+Assist is a strong choice, then it's sorta like half the DPs in this game
 
God forbid a character has a good neutral button.

How long was parasoul's j.lp considered uncontestable?
 
God forbid a character has a good neutral button.

How long was parasoul's j.lp considered uncontestable?
Are you dumb?

1) It is not a button
2) Nobody said it's OP

Arcana said it's "useless", I said "No, it's really good in neutral"
Then you say "Like every other DP" and I correct you with "No, one doesn't use most other DPs in neutral"

And now you pull some retarded strawman with "Oooh god forbid it's not awful, l2p before you call it uncontestable"??

This really does look like the Cammy forums
 
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What the hell are you even talking about?

No one's complaining...

Edit: ninja'd
 
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Thoughts on the Horus Dive change?

EDIT: mike changed it back nevermind
 
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It makes it hard to confirm on BB and Double unless I just assume it is going to hit 100% of the time.
 
I still find upperkhat after horus dive to be a rather easy confirm, even on this big characters.

Pretty sure you can even hit s.HP on Double fairly easily after horus dive.

EDIT: This is assuming it hits them crouching. I assume you have less time to act if it hits them standing since horus would hit them sooner.
 
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Also you have to, you know, confirm. Not just push the button and get jabbed in the face.
 
Confirming that horus dive hit and then following into upperkhat feels extremely lenient to me, even on Big Band. Not sure what to tell you