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Are resets too dominant now?

Jason

Jason

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Every time I finish a combo and get a knockdown I feel like I missed the chance for a reset.

Pretty much all of the really good players I've fought against never finish their combos unless they're going for the kill.

This seems weird.
 
I think the general mindset is reset until health is low enough for kill.

Full combos in general got gimped because of Drama, but I think it's fine the way it is now.

Getting a knockdown is actually a viable option, since ground tech resets Drama.
 
Yes, a tech-roll resets Undizzy but ultimately since players with optimized combos can kill from one reset anyway it hardly matters.

Right now I'm just in the mindset of finishing all of my combos but I feel like its hurting my overall game.
 
Jason said:
Right now I'm just in the mindset of finishing all of my combos but I feel like its hurting my overall game.

It is. This game is designed to be reset heavy. There is no reason you shouldn't be using them.
 
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Jason said:
Every time I finish a combo and get a knockdown I feel like I missed the chance for a reset.

Pretty much all of the really good players I've fought against never finish their combos unless they're going for the kill.

This seems weird.


Lets say you are playing 3v2 and you are the 3. You land a combo and the most damage you can manage completely optimized from first hit of the round is 13k with no followups. Your opponent character however has 16k life..so now they can raw tag or blockstring into safe dhc or maybe open you up and get some damage against you... No matter what, that situation isn't as good as doing a 33% chance of hitting reset at 7 k damage and getting it and converting into a kill:


If you reset is gotten out of, you still need one confirm to kill. If you do a full combo you still need another touch to kill... These 2 situations are virtually the same.

But going for a reset gives you a chance at 1 touch, 1 kill. Something you don't have at all when you end your combos.

TLDR:


The prevailing notion is if you can kill then go for it... If you can't then go for the reset.
The win ratio maths workout the best this way.
 
This is how it's going to be, and always be, until you reach Marvel 3 levels of damage, where you can simply ToD in every situation (Resets no longer required). MvC3 didn't start at that point, but you rarely had good players going for a full combo without a character being killed (Save for the player having amazingly strong options post-knockdown).

Either way, there is no way to fix this without neutering the engine somehow. Resets will always be better, so they'll always be focused on.
 
Krackatoa said:
This is how it's going to be, and always be, until you reach Marvel 3 levels of damage, where you can simply ToD in every situation (Resets no longer required). MvC3 didn't start at that point, but you rarely had good players going for a full combo without a character being killed (Save for the player having amazingly strong options post-knockdown).

Either way, there is no way to fix this without neutering the engine somehow. Resets will always be better, so they'll always be focused on.
MvC3 also has other features that discourage resets:
  1. Meter gain does not scale with combo length.
  2. You leave hitstun via an invincible animation.
  3. You can choose to recover as if you tech rolled from any hitstun recovery, not just knockdown (ie: forward, backward, in place).
  4. You have extended throw invincibility even after your hit invincibility from the recovery animation has worn off and the animation has ended.
  5. Level 3's do unscaled damage.
  6. X-Factor and TACs allow for at-will combo extension even after you have exhausted your current limits.
  7. Assists will continue to attack even if you remain in hitstun.
  8. You can cancel pushblock into pushblock.
Basically, the game makes it harder to reset by giving the opponent a bunch of Get Out of Jail Free cards when they leave hitstun, and then putting the opponent back into combos is a risky proposition because Hidden Missiles randomizes neutral. That, and the damage + meter gain is so high that it's well within your resources to be able to ToD off any hit with almost anybody in the cast.

Skullgirls is reset-based by design. Resets make for a more interesting game for both viewers and the players. It's a basic example of risk/reward in action, where the risk of allowing your opponent to escape the reset is allayed by the reward of otherwise unavailable damage and meter gain. Would you just prefer we go back to SDE?
 
I understand that resets are meant to be a big part of the game but I do feel like the risk/reward of resets is a bit skewed. Usually a failed reset just results in more pressure and mixups and there's almost no situation in which "Finish My combo" is a better option then "Reset" other then when the combo will kill.

Ultimately I feel like this makes the offensive game a bit one-dimensional as soon as somebody gets a hit. Obviously an improvement over SDE, I don't want to see Marvel 3 style meter positive TOD combos make a comeback, but I think if getting a knockdown was more beneficial in some way, it would make the choice between finish combo vs. reset a lot more interesting and strategic.

Having Undizzy reset on tech-roll was a good idea but I don't know if its enough to make knockdowns useful, especially considering a lot of characters can kill pretty easily with one reset.
 
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Jason said:
I understand that resets are meant to be a big part of the game but I do feel like the risk/reward of resets is a bit skewed. Usually a failed reset just results in more pressure and mixups and there's almost no situation in which "Finish My combo" is a better option then "Reset" other then when the combo will kill.

Ultimately I feel like this makes the offensive game a bit one-dimensional as soon as somebody gets a hit. Obviously an improvement over SDE, I don't want to see Marvel 3 style meter positive TOD combos make a comeback, but I think if getting a knockdown was more beneficial in some way, it would make the choice between finish combo vs. reset a lot more interesting an strategic.

Having Undizzy reset on tech-roll was a good idea but I don't know if its enough to make knockdowns useful, especially considering a lot of characters can kill pretty easily with one reset.


I understand your point and I do actually concur with it, though I LOVE MY RESET BASED SKULLGIRLS.
One thing that might bear trying out is to make it so that supers either erase all red damage, or simply eat up a large chunk of it... That way there will be bigger rewards for stopping your combo with a super that leads to neutral. Ie you go for a reset and the opponent defends it well, then engineers a tag out.... They can recover all that red hp... But if you just do a super then there is no red health left.

Another way to make resets less viable would be to lower damage of combos via normals, but make the supers do lots of damage... That way the difference between resetting or just going for a super isn't as huge as it currently is.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with sg's current reset game, its actually been nerfed with the undizzy decay and the throw scaling nerf that went into effect in sde, but I wouldn't mind some sort of incentive for not doing a reset. Not necessarily a way to nerf resets themselves, but maybe a way to just buff doing supers as Enders... Like having less scaling when going directly into a super, but more scaling when dhcing... That way the net gain from dhc is the same, but a simple one off super is worth Moreland they currently are... As it is right now at full scaling, supers do an extra 600-1500 damage whereas most resets presuper make about 4-7k there isn't really much to entice a player to NOT go for a reset... Though I'm not saying that that is necessarily a bad thing.
 
pretty much every game were TODs aren't dominant (MvC3) good pressure/positioning > full damage combos.

i honestly don't understand the problem with having a reset heavy game. saying resets are too dominant is essentially saying good positioning is too dominant
 
GirlyStyle said:
pretty much every game were TODs aren't dominant (MvC3) good pressure/positioning > full damage combos.

i honestly don't understand the problem with having a reset heavy game. saying resets are too dominant is essentially saying good positioning is too dominant

If you look at Street Fighter or KOF, finishing your combo gets you a knockdown which gets you a solid mixup. Resets exist in those games but they aren't the go-to strategy because knockdowns are so good.

Tech-rolls and limited untechable knockdowns in Skullgirls makes Resets more dominant and that's fine, because safe-jumps and meaty option selects can be really stupid but I'm saying that I feel Skullgirls sits too far in the other direction, when its never really a good idea to finish your combo when it won't get the kill.

Another way to make resets less viable would be to lower damage of combos via normals, but make the supers do lots of damage...

Well then you're going to run into problems with mid-combo supers like Gregor, Dynamo, Sniper, Argus, etc. that don't necessarily end the combo when they connect, plus even more meter dependence. I agree with your intentions though.
 
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I think throw resets might be a touch too strong. I could be wrong about this ie my reactions could just be shit, but they seem impossible to tech on reaction. You have to see it coming or guess in order to avoid it.

Standard move resets are easier to deal with since blocking is relatively easy in this game. It does require some burden of knowledge, namely your opponents capabilities, but that is not an unfair amount of knowledge as that is required for basic gameplay past a fresh beginner level.
 
I myself prefer reset based gameplay to combo based gameplay, but that's probably because I'm bad at learning full combos. As it is though, resets really make for more a more "two player" game since the aggressor and the defender both get to make tactical decisions.
 
It's better than SDE, where it was pretty much MvC3 on every stray hit. And you can always finish your combo into sliding knockdown or tech chase, so it's not like there's no place for that.
 
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Jason said:
If you look at Street Fighter or KOF, finishing your combo gets you a knockdown which gets you a solid mixup. Resets exist in those games but they aren't the go-to strategy because knockdowns are so good.


It's fundamentally the same thing, just executed differently. Both involve forcing opponent into optimal positioning at the sacrifice of optimal damage.

The combos you do in sf4 operate the same way ; sacrificing what could be top damage for a certain situation.
 
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GirlyStyle said:
It's fundamentally the same thing, just executed differently. Both involve forcing opponent into optimal positioning at the sacrifice of optimal damage.

The combos you do in sf4 operate the same way ; sacrificing what could be top damage for a certain situation.


Agreed. When I use ibuki and I knock down into vortex, I've always looked at that like a forced guess reset situation. And the same with sg... Resets in sg I've always looked at as mixups rather than straight up resets.

So, to me, saying the resets in sg are good is like saying the mixups are good... And I see no problem with good mixups.


The biggest difference between sf4 style knockdown mixups and skullgirls reset mixups are that some of the sf4 mixups are more easy to reactively defend, and sf4 resets seem to have less available options, making them in general easier to predict.

But it's about wheat you as a player like I guess... I'm tired of boring sf4 turtle fests.... Until a dive kicker comes in and wrecks compete shop... Shit is boring to me in both regards.

But I digress... sf4 has its moments of awesomeness
 
The only thing I don't like about resets is how much it incentivizes mashing an autocorrected reversal (usually super). I don't have the energy to churn inputs half the time to turn safe 80/20 mixups into risky 50/50s (plus killing dropped combos).
 
obregon said:
The only thing I don't like about resets is how much it incentivizes mashing an autocorrected reversal (usually super). I don't have the energy to churn inputs half the time to turn safe 80/20 mixups into risky 50/50s (plus killing dropped combos).


There's lots you can do to get aroun this. Burst bait setups will always catch mashers an you get great punish off of it.


The more obvious way is just learning where in your strings you can purposefully drop your combo I such a way you will still have the positional advantage of they weren't mashing something out.


Mashing super isn't the greatest idea, especially now
 
I'm not saying it's always a good idea to mindlessly mash reversals or that I'm complaining about playing against people who always mash them out. Just that, like for example during a quick low hitstun attack during a combo that could be used for a tick setup, it's probably a good idea to mash some of the time just to show another threat to some labbed up reset. It happens constantly in streamed tourney play.
 
obregon said:
The only thing I don't like about resets is how much it incentivizes mashing an autocorrected reversal (usually super). I don't have the energy to churn inputs half the time to turn safe 80/20 mixups into risky 50/50s (plus killing dropped combos).

Then don't mash it. Pay attention to when they like to reset and time it right.

Also, please show me an autocorrect reversal because there is little to no autocorrect in this game.
 
For some reason I was sure I had gotten Fortune's air super to autocorrect but now I can't do it in training, so my bad there.

Edit - Got it, it can autocorrect; try it.
 
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Burst Bait setups own mashing for free.
 
obregon said:
For some reason I was sure I had gotten Fortune's air super to autocorrect but now I can't do it in training, so my bad there.

Edit - Got it, it can autocorrect; try it.
What is "autocorrect"?
 
@Spencer
When a special move is input in one direction, but comes out in the other direction because it got crossed up... Example: if I dp towards the left but the dp comes out towards the right because my opponent was jumping over me... This is known as an autocorrect because I input the move wrongly and would have missed if not for the computer "autocorrecting" the direction of the dp.

It happens in sf4 alot and it happens with assists in skullgirls all the time.
 
In this case I'm saying for Fortune QCB+KK air super:

Fortune is in hitstun in the air and you (the Fortune player) input the QCB motion and the opponent then crosses you up right around when Fortune comes out of stun frames. You can then hit KK even though the input "should" have crossed up and the super comes out and in the correct direction.
 
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Spencer said:
I think throw resets might be a touch too strong. I could be wrong about this ie my reactions could just be shit, but they seem impossible to tech on reaction. You have to see it coming or guess in order to avoid it.

Standard move resets are easier to deal with since blocking is relatively easy in this game. It does require some burden of knowledge, namely your opponents capabilities, but that is not an unfair amount of knowledge as that is required for basic gameplay past a fresh beginner level.

this is how you deal with resets "on reaction"

are they comboing you in the air? mash throw
are you on the ground? mash dhc
 
A misconception I notice some have is that resets/throws/etc are/should be reactable, when this is actually a very rare thin to have in most games, not just SG.

It's all about prediction, and determining what your defensive decision is before it happens. It's really important to develop this skill if you wanna be da besssss


Also, again, I would recommend NOT trying to get around this via mashing consistently
/constantly, as this is an extremely readable strategy that is accosiated with "panic", and which (particularly in SG) almost always has a hard counter.

Of course it's something which can be used sparingly, but you have to have an extremely solid read.

Something to keep in mind for offline play is that good players will often listen/look at your buttons, so this tactic is particularly weak in that scenario.
 
im keeding clearly you dont do it every time

but you gotta admit that a huge part of the gameplan is to mash and countermash resets lol
 
NY_Jailhouse said:
im keeding clearly you dont do it every time

but you gotta admit that a huge part of the gameplan is to mash and countermash resets lol


For some teams, certainly!

Its important to have that "Daigo Edge" where at any time you may do anything, but at the moment I think its a tactic that is overused in SG, and people will use it less as things like Burst Baits that end in either punish or positional advantage become more prevalent.

I play Para/Dubs, so other then car on the ground their isn't much I can do as far as mashing out reversals :(
 
if they reset paradubs on the ground youre in mash heaven. both have DPs, "safe" dhc both ways :)
 
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NY_Jailhouse said:
if they reset paradubs on the ground youre in mash heaven. both have DPs, "safe" dhc both ways :)


You can't mash a charge, and Double's DP is vulnerable for one or two frames at first, so not really. It gets stuffed by a lot of setups.

Also Car -> Bikes can be punished in a bunch of situations, only truly safe in the corner.

So no, no heaven for I
 
car > bikes rarely punished on me unless theyre still in the air. flash kick mash is still a mash, but youre mashing on reaction/instinct to the combo dropping

yeah i dont ever use the double DP just saying its there

dp>bikes>dinner time. delicious
 
Without a doubt I prefer resets to getting killed in 1 or 2 long combos, but I get what the OP is saying about the risk and reward business. Blocking in SG seems to require a lot more effort than attacking, and successfully blocking a reset or teching a grab usually doesn't change your situation other than having avoided the damage you would otherwise have taken. There's rarely any punishing going on in higher level play as correctly used assists can make any move safe, it generally just whoever lays down the most pressure first.

It's also another reason that a team of 3 is always better than a solo character, as there are only 3 real options when a new character comes in, which limits the pressure that can be put on in the first few seconds, although it's far from impossible to burn through all of your opponent's team members with mixups or grabs as they come in.

A benefit of being this focused on resets, though, is that the reward for turning the situation around is pretty big as the direction of the pressure pretty much decides everything about the flow of the match, so if the pressure is on you then you're in for some nasty treatment but when it's on the opponent you'll be laying the beats down and feeling quite good about it.
 
NY_Jailhouse said:
car > bikes rarely punished on me unless theyre still in the air. flash kick mash is still a mash, but youre mashing on reaction/instinct to the combo dropping

yeah i dont ever use the double DP just saying its there

dp>bikes>dinner time. delicious

Good players will punish it a lot, since it can be really easy for a lot of characters to do it on reaction, grounded or not, so I never want to be in the habit of using it just to waste two bars and be in a combo.

flash kick mash is still a mash, but youre mashing on reaction/instinct to the combo dropping

that realllllyyy doesn't sound like a mash to me :P

yeah DHC to catheads is dope, but it too can be punished in some situations (i.e. when you activate too close too opponent)

DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
Without a doubt I prefer resets to getting killed in 1 or 2 long combos, but I get what the OP is saying about the risk and reward business. Blocking in SG seems to require a lot more effort than attacking, and successfully blocking a reset or teching a grab usually doesn't change your situation other than having avoided the damage you would otherwise have taken. There's rarely any punishing going on in higher level play as correctly used assists can make any move safe, it generally just whoever lays down the most pressure first.


I reaaaallllyyy disagree with the mentality that blocking doesn't offer much in SG, since there a bunch of mechanics that make is so a succesful block can result in ending pressure and even conversion.

A succesful block can mean:

Blocking a single hit : easy pushblock, softens pressure

Blocking multi hitting moves/moves in conjuncture with asssist : PBGC, can end in full combo conversion (even a happy birthday!) in some cases (in some cases meterless)

Have meter and proper assist : Alpha Counter. For Two bars you can get full conversion, and some assists even grant a full conversion meterless (I.E. Ms Fortune)

Blocking is AMAZING in SG, you just have to learn how to syngergize your team properly to make the most of it.
 
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I personally think blocking in sg sucks ass.
 
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Alpha Counters are nearly useless unless you have an assist that's invulnerable on startup and maybe only invulnerable 1 or 2 frames in, otherwise the opponent can just mash super and counter while dealing a fair chunk of damage, all that happens when you Alpha Counter without the aforementioned requirement being met is that you lose 1 meter and some health but there is a possibility the pressure is reset, unless of course they use or DHC into a super that they can combo off of. Fair enough though, most people have at least one of Fiber Upper, Updo or Napalm Pillar as an assist option so maybe this isn't as strong an argument as I've made it out to be.

I don't think I've seen anyone who can reliably pull off PBGCs when they need to, although fair enough I'm sure once it becomes more well known it'll be something that everyone will learn eventually. If anyone can show me some videos or tell me any situations where people have pulled them off time and time again when possible then do feel free to say so and/or post them.
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
Alpha Counters are nearly useless unless you have an assist that's invulnerable on startup and maybe only invulnerable 1 or 2 frames in, otherwise the opponent can just mash super and counter while dealing a fair chunk of damage, all that happens when you Alpha Counter without the aforementioned requirement being met is that you lose 1 meter and some health but there is a possibility the pressure is reset, unless of course they use or DHC into a super that they can combo off of. Fair enough though, most people have at least one of Fiber Upper, Updo or Napalm Pillar as an assist option so maybe this isn't as strong an argument as I've made it out to be.

I don't think I've seen anyone who can reliably pull off PBGCs when they need to, although fair enough I'm sure once it becomes more well known it'll be something that everyone will learn eventually. If anyone can show me some videos or tell me any situations where people have pulled them off time and time again when possible then do feel free to say so and/or post them.

You are so dearly wrong about Alpha Counters. The ability to effortlessly escape any burst bait setup is valuable as fuck. Also, ACing into nothing is awesome.

There are shitloads of people who can and do PBGC regularly; it's just that there's not enough video of this game in general. Just go watch Marvel 2 players punish Hyper Sentinel Force on block. You literally cannot punish that super on block without PBGC. I personally have used PBGC on several occasions to kill an opponent who attempted to chip me to death with things like Dynamo.
 
Broken Loose said:
You are so dearly wrong about Alpha Counters. The ability to effortlessly escape any burst bait setup is valuable as fuck. Also, ACing into nothing is awesome.
I didn't know you could alpha counter into nothing. Was it part of the SQE update?
 
Broken Loose said:
You are so dearly wrong about Alpha Counters. The ability to effortlessly escape any burst bait setup is valuable as fuck. Also, ACing into nothing is awesome.

There are shitloads of people who can and do PBGC regularly; it's just that there's not enough video of this game in general. Just go watch Marvel 2 players punish Hyper Sentinel Force on block. You literally cannot punish that super on block without PBGC. I personally have used PBGC on several occasions to kill an opponent who attempted to chip me to death with things like Dynamo.


How does this work cause I'm confused how to escape any burst bait setup besides just sitting there...
 
You can AC during burst animation. To AC into nothing, which is amazing, you have to give up an assist for dash. AC is really good in SG.
 
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