Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night

Discussion in 'Gaming' started by Squire Grooktook, May 11, 2015.

  1. Squire Grooktook

    Squire Grooktook The wind blew all day long

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    I sincerely want both.

    Please, please don't let this game fall victim to "rectangular rooms full of enemies" syndrome, that his past games suffered from at times. I want the rooms to actually make you move differently instead of just wacking tanky dudes all the time.

    It definitely doesn't need to be super hard (there's already classic mode for that). But the sense of variety and flow will suffer if platforming is non-existent or trivial.

    Thunder Force IV is a good example of a game that's fairly easy but still feels fun thanks to nice level design and a good amount of variety.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
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  2. SanoBaron

    SanoBaron Delicious chewable Hubba-Bella

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    like, naw man. he knows how to make good rooms and platforming.
    have faith.
     
  3. Squire Grooktook

    Squire Grooktook The wind blew all day long

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    Eh, I've always considered that a weakness of his, to be honest.

    Good exploration, smooth controls, fun boss fights, lots of content, but I've never considered any of his games to be particularly memorable in terms of level design.

    It's especially noticeable (though certainly present in SOTN, HOD, AOS, and DOS as well) in Portrait of Ruin and Order of Eclessia, which deliberately set out to have more linear and focused stages, yet many of them amount to rectangular halls filled with meaty enemies. Both games have a few moments of brilliance (Nation of Fools in POR and the Training Halls in Eclessia), but still leave a lot to be desired (even though I still love the hell out of Eclessia).

    I am hopeful though that Inti will put more focus on level layouts, this time around.
     
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  4. JBThazard

    JBThazard Jazzgasm

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    I agree, if you take all the skill out of platforming, you virtually take all the skill out of designing platforms. Mixing both attaining new skills to access new areas AND needing some skill to use those skills is what would make an interesting Metroidvania.
     
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  5. @J-Boogie

    @J-Boogie Super Fighting ServOp IRC Super Op

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    Well, here's the thing. Precise jumps are probably more important in the linear stage Castlevanias (IE: the originals) rather than the exploratory Castlevanias (IE: the Igavanias). Basically the only precise jump that an Igavania would have would be anything that's marked as a continuation cutoff point. You're not making it until you get the powerup or trigger required to do so. So I can agree with his thinking in this case.

    Now, for the linear mode we're getting I can see them being given much greater importance there as it's a side thing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
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  6. SanoBaron

    SanoBaron Delicious chewable Hubba-Bella

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    that's mainly what I'm saying. there's more challenge in Iga's games than just platforming.
    why make the exploration of the castle harder with harder ways to get around.
    also, this is supposedly gonna be his biggest castle yet.
    there should be tons of places to go back to and explore without trying to wrap your head around getting to there.
     
  7. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    I just hope the game's long. I honestly sometimes feel like I blow through these games, and I get bummed when I finally run out of new powers to unlock. I just want a big castle and expansive powers.
     
  8. SanoBaron

    SanoBaron Delicious chewable Hubba-Bella

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    Iga's biggest castle.png
     
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  9. @J-Boogie

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    There being enemy drops and crafting means I'm going to be playing this for quite awhile probably.

    I... have a problem when it comes to Igavanias. I don't feel they're complete until I've gotten every possible combination of stuff I can.

    And I mean *everything*.

    Items are fine, they can just be one. But I've gotta have one of every weapon, all the drops done, all items and everything maxed out. Which basically means 2 of every accessory since you can usually equip two of those.

    I also maxed out Shanoa's attributes in Order of Ecclesia. I found out there was an actual build that would let me one shot dracula with the right union glyph.

    ... yeah, so I'm not worried about length. :V

    Which reminds me, I should ask them if level 255 will be a thing again here.
     
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  10. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    The thing with me is that I usually find myself breezing through these types of games, or at least it FEELS like I do. Then I look at my playtime and realize just how long I've been playing. Recently started on a new Metroidvania known as Bunny Must Die! Chelsea and the 7 Devils. I've plowed 2 hours into despite getting stuck and feeling like I only put a short time into it. I have this issue with Zelda games, too, where the play experience feels shorter than it actually is, so its just a me problem lol.
     
  11. JBThazard

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    Metroidvania's tend to be short. A 80-90% playthrough usually takes less than 9 hours. I hope Bloodstained changes that to a considerable degree.

    Iga's games aren't that challenging though unless you do some kinda lv.1 run like in OoE. If most of the challenge is level grinding and getting the best build, that gets stale for me. Too many games are like that now to the point where it gets formulaic. No one's talking about controller-throwing levels of platforming, but something that's more eye-opening than "this high platform needs the double jump ability; come back later". That in and of itself is FINE, but can I see something else for once?
    Also, I'm glad the castle will be bigger, but it won't matter if it's just 200 rectangles as opposed to 100. Size won't make up for creativity, though imo both are ideal, so hopefully we'll get both. I don't want this to be like Skyrim where there are 100 of the same kinds of quests over and over. That's a game that suffered due to emphasizing quantity over creativity (and is also why I refuse to jump on the hype train for Fallout 4 until I see evidence of new ideas, something the gaming industry has been running out of).
     
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  12. @J-Boogie

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    It's funny you mention OoE because that's generally regarded as the most challenging one.

    But I dunno, man. You have good points for what you want but what you complain about is pretty much what Igavanias *do* and what a lot of people enjoy. So maybe they're just not your thing?
     
  13. North888

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    I also hope stuff like the actual design of a castle is incorporated. Like platforming across chandeleers, a giant Ball Room filled with obstacles or enemies, a massive entrance hall that branches into multiple other rooms and requires platforming skill at first to get around, but becomes easy to cross later. I dunno, just make these places feel like a castle. Sometimes it just feels like these places are hollow buildings made to look like Castles, with random torches and large paintings put in to simulate the appearance of a castle. I just want more consistent castle interior than we usually get XD

    Either way, I think this is shaping to be a good game.
     
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  14. JBThazard

    JBThazard Jazzgasm

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    I consider OoE to be the most challenging as well, as long as we talking Igavania's. I love that game and most of Iga's installments, so no, Igavanias are definitely my thing. SotN is in my top 5 fave games of all time. But with Bloodstained set to release 2 whole decades after Symphony....I just don't want a copycat. I'd be OK with one personally, but show me some new ideas incorporated along with the old ones. I know Iga is capable of this and I think he knows too. There's a good reason why he left Konami.
     
  15. SanoBaron

    SanoBaron Delicious chewable Hubba-Bella

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    well, there's a lot more he could do than just make it harder to get places.
    tbh, I'd rather the game be long because it's long.
    not more difficult just to add more to the playtime.
    regardless of it being boss/enemy difficulty or platform difficulty.
     
  16. JBThazard

    JBThazard Jazzgasm

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    Difficulty can be in place to make interactions with the levels or enemies interesting. It probably won't be as hard as OoE but I'd really like that. And if the game is too big to accommodate for the lack of features or playstyles, the game will be too long and overstay its welcome. While they're short, I think many of the Igavanias are paced just fine. HoD is a good game imo but bosses were too easy and could be cheesed through with any brainless strategy. Igavanias should have more depth than this. Not to mention difficulty normally extends replayability for me. Just don't make it...CVIII hard.
     
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  17. SanoBaron

    SanoBaron Delicious chewable Hubba-Bella

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    HoD was more meant for Castlevania co-op anyway.
    and since there's not one main castle that you go through, I don't really count it as an Igavania.
     
  18. Aden

    Aden Beep Boop Meow

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    I thought he was referring to Harmony of Dissonance, not Harmony of Despair.
     
  19. JBThazard

    JBThazard Jazzgasm

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    Sorry yeah, I did mean Dissonance. I forgot about Despair, mainly because I did not like it.
     
  20. Aden

    Aden Beep Boop Meow

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    Since this is actually confusing I vote we refer to Dissonance as Concerto of the Midnight Sun because that title is amazing.
     
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  21. Ruin

    Ruin Hopes & Dreams

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    let's call it what it really is
    Victorian Interior Design Simulator GBA
     
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  22. JBThazard

    JBThazard Jazzgasm

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    Maybe it's because I'm an immature troll at heart, but I love almost everything you post, Ruin.
     
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  23. Ruin

    Ruin Hopes & Dreams

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    I try
     
  24. TechPowah

    TechPowah Just a simple Hero

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    He named himself Ruin, yet he never does

    He took the name to save the rest of us
     
  25. Squire Grooktook

    Squire Grooktook The wind blew all day long

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    That doesn't mean you shouldn't have involved and interesting platforming, which his games have mostly been lacking to a great extent. It's not difficult to telegraph a platform that's obviously and completely out of the way, versus just making some clever layouts that require a bit of thought and attention to get through.

    This. Difficulty, even just a little bit, can add a new layer of strategic variety* and engagement to the game that helps players get immersed. More involved platforming and variety in rooms would turn the game from "good" to "great".

    *something I took with an old Contra 1/Gradius 1 designer interview. Basically he argued that one of the best ways to enforce a sense of variety and newness to each section of the game is that players need a different strategy to get through. This keeps each section of the game feeling fresh and unique. You can't really have that without a little bit of challenge at least, though.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
  26. SanoBaron

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    but difficulty in platforming isn't really the same as difficulty in combat or enemies.
    the original TMNT game on NES had insane difficulty with some platforms, and several people don't find that game as fun as other Turtles games.
    I won't mind some more difficult enemies and placement.
    but if platforms are gonna be difficult solely to stretch out the game, then no thanks.
     
  27. Squire Grooktook

    Squire Grooktook The wind blew all day long

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    And why do you think that any platforming difficulty has to be "insane" platforming difficulty? Why use an example like TMNT on Nes when you could have used Mario on Nes?

    I don't think anyone has suggested turbo difficulty on anything to stretch out the game (though it would be nice, especially on the extra difficulty mode that was funded), so that's not really on the table.

    Just give more involved level layouts. You are right though that "platforming difficulty isn't the same as enemy difficulty", which is why we need both. More variety.
     
  28. JBThazard

    JBThazard Jazzgasm

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    All I want is cool platforming that is incorporated alongside cool abilities and cool enemies. It doesn't need to take up a million brain cells, but only using 1 brain cell is also kinda lame.
     
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  29. Squire Grooktook

    Squire Grooktook The wind blew all day long

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    ^^^I like this guy, he says in one sentence what I need 3 to do.
     
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  30. JBThazard

    JBThazard Jazzgasm

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    SENPAI NOTICED ME :PUN:
     
  31. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    And it is not what you implied. :^)
     
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  32. JBThazard

    JBThazard Jazzgasm

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    Not because Konami didn't want him to properly succeed a hard-ish game like OoE and instead wanted him to make kinect stuff?
     
  33. Aden

    Aden Beep Boop Meow

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    Clan Katana won. Backer exclusive boss is IGA. The last achievement was for new game plus.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
  34. SanoBaron

    SanoBaron Delicious chewable Hubba-Bella

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    yo, that katana looks sick!
     
  35. Arcana

    Arcana BTSW | Gayonetta

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    I cant believe you all voted for sword, im ashamed of you all, whip squad 4 life
     
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  36. Aden

    Aden Beep Boop Meow

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    Hey, I voted whip until time ran out.
     
  37. @J-Boogie

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    Okay, and I agree with you. But I keep seeing it said that they want to see *more* than what was in the previous games and disagreeing with what Igarashi said in that preview video. Nobody's really sure what he *meant* by precision jumping. I mean say what you will but Ecclesia had a good number of interesting platforming bits using powers.

    I'm fully in agreement with wanting to see interesting platforming. I think it's just a bit early to start disagreeing with a not quite clear line from a preview video.
     
  38. @J-Boogie

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    In progress news 'cheevos has reached 53 so that automatically grants New Game Plus. And maybe something else for 55.

    With paypal included it's over 4 mil already so it's *possible* 5 million by the end can happen! Oh and Igarashi is going to be the special backer boss. :V
     
  39. Squire Grooktook

    Squire Grooktook The wind blew all day long

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    It was kind of hit and miss, like the rest. I mean, compare the layout in PoR's Victorian Fear to Nation of Fools, or Eclessia's Clocktower or Training Halls to the various "road" areas.

    Self-insert for god tier.
     
  40. @J-Boogie

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    He actually didn't intendo to do it but a number of fans asked apparently.
     

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