Community Punch / Kick Priority Input

hi it would be hugely beneficial for eliza to have DP>Summons.

 

Keep in mind that it's still up to me if I want the character to have X thing, since you can always do the other thing with assist->special. :^)

 

Move parasoul's taunt to [2]8P

Taunt > Pillar

 

(pointed out by FUKUATWERKTEAM who will forever be that)
If you do a real DP motion, you can already get DP+assist because you don't get QCT. :^)

 

it makes more sense to me for peacock to have item>teleport cause you have to delay the teleport for h port + assist anyway idk

 

Pw has some setups with buer that it would be nice to be able have kick priority with to time the buer plus assist more precisely

 

Yes but, does she currently use assist + nail at all? Or is Buer 100% preferable at all times?
@other Painwheel players

This is the kind of info I'm interested in.

Definitely agree with SoiD instead of teleport.

 

I've seen nails+assist used for zoning and pressure. I think it would be more frustrating to accidentally get buer. Also, I think changing it to buer priority would get rid of a stinger cancel tech.

 

What about for Fukua drill having priority over fireball. I'd rather wake up with assist plus drill then assist + fireball. I also know of really dirty setups with assist + drill Kara setups which would be better then the current Kara fireball setups IMO

 

This is true, you'd have to press the buttons separately.

It's Flight < Stinger that's important, but also Buer < Stinger.
QCB, QCT+P+K -> Stinger~Fly, because Stinger > all and Fly is cancellable from it. If Buer were > Stinger, then that motion would just be Buer by itself, and you'd have to do QCB,QCT+P~K.
So, PW players! ...?

Nope. My basic rule is "as long as it doesn't add a new DP+assist, I'm open to whatever." And that does.

 

I'm not sure what my input is worth being a low-intermediate, but as an Eliza main I'd honestly prefer if she were left alone. Maybe because I'm not a team user I don't fully appreciate the scenario that Liam is describing -- that's likely true -- but the only priority issue I've had with Eliza is downbacking -> forward + [Throw] resulting in a throne call. Honestly, my answer to that problem has always been, "Don't screw up your inputs BlueFeena."

Being dead serious here, my concern with altering her input priority is whether or not behavioral or playstyle changes will be required to deal with the new button priority. Once again, I'm probably not the best person to consult on this as I have nowhere near the level of expertise that Liam does, but I'd rather just deal with her button priority that have it changed.

 

Actually I can fix that so throw input > all specials...I don't know if I want to, but I can. Parasoul has it because charge moves mess that up and can't be gotten around like not inputting D,DF,F.

The only thing that can change for Eliza is Spiral vs Sekhmet, since you can already choose DP+assist or servant+assist by doing a real DP motion that doesn't end in Towards.

 

I would prefer having to plink the p~k than pressing both at the same time. Just as easy imo, and this gives you buer plus assist in neutral as well as crossup setups becoming easier

 

sorry for the double post, but is there a time limit to make this decision. I would like to go home to test p+k vs p~k and then give my input

 

It's not just as easy, for example you can't set a macro to plink.
Nor is it as fast, it's always at least 1f slower, and in the case of this particular tech it's always at least 2f slower...because as it is now you get Stinger->Fly on the same frame so you end up with just the first frame of Fly, whereas with plinking you'd have to see a frame of Stinger, then get Fly, which is a total of 2f slower.

 

this is what I was worried about. The thing is, almost no pw players use it, myself included, but that can always change. Having true buer plus assist would be nice, but maybe not as nice as (I'm guessing the math here) a 17f overhead option (1f stinger + 8f fly startup + 8f jlp?)

 

I'm pretty sure special/air fly startup is 10f. Also, Mike said that stinger and fly happen on the same frame so it would be 10f of fly startup and 8f of j.lp startup.

I'm for nails having priority over buer.

 

Okay; it took me a few minutes to understand the scenarios you and Liam were describing.

Making the change the Liam suggested would greatly bolster Eliza's defense; as you described, whether it's [Assist] + [DP] or [Assist] + [Servant] is dependent on how lazy the inputs are, but it's a whole 'nother can of worms when it comes to mashing and Eliza's defense. As you can see right here, mashing DP + Assist gives Eliza a servant call, which really doesn't do much in the grand scheme of things. I do not know how you planned Eliza's defense to work, but the suggestion Liam is posing would allow Eliza to mash DP + Assist and get something.... scary. Beat Extend DP? Napalm Pillar DP? A-Train DP? Zoning DP? Beat Extend DP alone would protect Eliza from crossover baits and like, you know, everything.

As an Eliza player, I'm certainly not going to complain about anything that boosts Eliza's defense. My point is to simply be mindful of the changes. I will be content either way.

As far as Spiral / Sekhmet priority goes, I recommend leaving that alone. Assist + Sekhmet is a nice tool in her arsenal. It should also give Eliza the option of Tiger Knee Sekhmet + Assist; I only managed to get it to work once but I think but the option is there.

 

The only person I know who consistently uses nails + assist is Taluda with H nails and copter in neutral. (I try to with M bomber but usually forget.)
I'd definitely like to try QCB nails just to see what I could do with the priority changes though.

 

The only thing it would change would be easier stinger cancels, which would be nice, but I talked to Mike about it and it doesn't really seem to be on the table. The priority for the sake of character potential should stay the same. You can still do buer crossup setups, its just that their input for doing it are a little more difficult because assists have to be called directly before the buer instead of at the same time.

 

i do know that much. i was just seeing if i could get it to work with proximity guard OS :))))))))

 

I would like to reopen this discussion now that stinger cancels are gone. I would like to try the assist priority on buers @Mike_Z @Elda Taluda

 

Posting this here since the beta changes thread is way too busy:

Any thoughts, val players

I still have extremely limited access to the internet at the moment but I'd hate myself if K>P made it to retail without me at least trying to prevent it

 

I really hate bypass > shuriken. I want shuriken > bypass back.

 

I think Shuriken is more useful more of the time because of basically the reasons you listed. P>K is the way to go imo.

 

I would like to say that I really think Dead Cross > Bypass is better for Valentine and more useful as a tool overall.

 

...

@Mike_Z

 

Seems like pro-Dead-Cross people are mostly interested in ground Dead Cross + assist for blockstrings, whereas I'm mostly interested in air Bypass + assist for mixups. I doubt Mike would do this since it's inconsistent, but I wonder if both sides could be satisfied by having the move priority be different for ground and air specials.

To elaborate more on my reasons for preferring Bypass over Dead Cross, the change in timing makes a big difference when trying to convert off of things like fullscreen H air Bypass + Theonite Beam.

Oh, and don't get angry with Mike on this. I'm the one that recommended the change, and the one who pointed out he hadn't fully implemented it. From the players that I had surveyed, everyone either had no preference or preferred bypass having priority. Looks like I picked a pretty poor sample (notably, I didn't ask any non-US Vals ._.).

 

As much as I see why people want shuriken>bypass on the ground, I don't really see if for the air. It seems like the more useful tool is bypass in the air, for the reason Datagram said. Why is air bypass>shuriken not desirable? Everyone in the beta thread just said "ahhh i don't like it".

 

I'd... be fine with this I think. Can't super jump shuriken+assist anyway. I don't know if Mike will like it though

When I said "aaaah this is even worse" it was mostly because I was hoping to read "valentine priority reverted to P>K" and not "ok K>P now fully implemented". I'm not really against air bypass over air shuriken

 

I dont see much of a reason to do Bypass > Shuriken since l bypass is -62 on whiff and -17 on block. With a blockstring it would have been -3...I feel like shuriken would be better because neutral play and its safer to do in a blockstring? Unless they give bypass a frame of invincibility or something (which i think they wont because that sounds bullshit) I'm not sure lmao

 

Ground Dead Cross is -9 on block, and not safe in a Ground Blockstring.

Ground L Bypass is -4 on block, and safe in a Ground Blockstring (barring a couple of supers, not counting pbgc etc). Sometimes from a distance you can make it -3.

 

Oh, Alright. I was looking at it in training mode (must have done something wrong). Thanks for clearing that up.

 

point blank yes

at a distance (sHP range) ground dead cross is safe, L bypass whiffs and M bypass leaves you mega negative

 

Wasn't it a thing that bypass is mega bad (on block or whiff )and you could always get punished for it

 

As Fenster said, ground L bypass is safe at -4 (though some supers can punish it). However, because of how short its range is, it will usually whiff making it hella unsafe. All the other bypasses (ground + air) are super unsafe on both whiff and block.

If Mike was willing to have different priorities for air and ground then I guess I'd be fine with air having K>P and ground having P>K. In the scenario that he wants it to be the same for both the air and ground, I definitely think that the priority should be given to P. Using bypass + assist for cross-ups seems pretty gimmicky and unsafe whereas the uses for grounded shuriken + assist are much more important.