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Fukua General Discussion

I would have said high mid tier, about par with Parasoul in placing, but now, yeah.

The only characters I think that she will be above are Painwheel and maybe (not even) Big Band.

Too early to get that grim though I think.

EDIT: @Dime_x
You weren't practicing Fukua for all that long, the point of her zoning game is to funnel them into your favourite j.HK space.

The fireball nerf is a massive and very direct nerf to her zoning game. The bounces, yeah I agree with you it isn't really a buff or nerf either way, the block and hitstun is astronomical, I'm not sure you saw the difference between the pre-nerf version and now as much as those who have played her for a longer period of time.

Shadows are good, but they have a distinct weakness against vertical characters, as a PW, Parasoul and Double player you have felt the absolute brunt of the shadows. Characters such as Val and Squigly are not anywhere near as affected by shadows from a neutral position. Hell, Valentine can straight up punish them from a fairly long distance.

The fireballs were her crutch and even though I think she will still function without them, it affects her more deeply than I think you have experienced yet. I mean, who else has played Fukua against you other than me?
 
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zeknife said:
Wow a character that has to commit to things sometimes
Truly, she is ruined forever
....not sometimes... not even going to go at it with you. if all you were planning to do was retort with a reply that was just snarky then atleast provide something of options for fukua. cause zoning is not it at all.
 
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Fukua's zoning game is pretty awful over all, she isnt like Parasoul and Peacock who whan trap you at the corner with tears and other projectiles, she cant do that becasue her shadows arent long ranged and she can only have one love dart out at a time, she was supposed to rely on stun to get you in pressure but now she lost one of her best pressure tools and she didnt get anything to help her when pressure is put on her,
 
zeknife said:
Wow a character that has to commit to things sometimes
Truly, she is ruined forever
I know you are a fan of snark, but understand this is her OPTIMAL position.

She is now at a huge risk in her optimal position. The only other character I can think of that is like that is Big Band. And Big Band forces you to guess. Fukua only forces you to guess if you made a mistake or she made a good assist call.

Fukua has 3 main ways of opening you up.

You pushed a button at a bad time and she was above you.

She crosses you up with a j.HK xx 236LP.

You messed up a pushblock and she gets a low/throw.

Fukua's only way to force you into a bad position has been nerfed, now she has to rely on YOU making a mistake to get that opportunity.

EDIT: Some people here have a very different idea of zoning than I do.

To me Fukua is THE main zoner in the game. ie. she limits your approach options and forces you into a specific position (zone) she wants you in.

Peacock doesn't care where you are on screen, she just wants you to block SOMETHING so she can go nuts.

Parasoul is the other character who does a fair bit of zoning, but she would rather be rushing you down. Her zoning is almost purely defensive, she isn't really trying to force you into a specific position, just cover an angle so she can go in herself.
 
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@Tomo009
Ive never even played against your fukua, so dont know where you are getting that from.

As far as where I'm pulling this stuff from, its almsot all from watching evo fukuas play and videos... Of fukuas pounding the shit out of people with fireball barrages into shadow offense for easy ways in... That is even better now. Thats all i really have to see. The dumb stuff is still dumb... Just requires a brain now. I dont see how this is a bad thing at all from any perspective. I mean... Those fireballs... Jeez they do damage now.
 
Dime_x said:
@Tomo009
Ive never even played against your fukua, so dont know where you are getting that from.

As far as where I'm pulling this stuff from, its almsot all from watching evo fukuas play and videos... Of fukuas pounding the shit out of people with fireball barrages into shadow offense for easy ways in... That is even better now. Thats all i really have to see. The dumb stuff is still dumb... Just requires a brain now. I dont see how this is a bad thing at all from any perspective. I mean... Those fireballs... Jeez they do damage now.
its actually not easier at all, damage means nothing if you cant convert anything off of it
 
Dime_x said:
@Tomo009
Ive never even played against your fukua, so dont know where you are getting that from.

As far as where I'm pulling this stuff from, its almsot all from watching evo fukuas play and videos... Of fukuas pounding the shit out of people with fireball barrages into shadow offense for easy ways in... That is even better now. Thats all i really have to see. The dumb stuff is still dumb... Just requires a brain now. I dont see how this is a bad thing at all from any perspective. I mean... Those fireballs... Jeez they do damage now.
Really? When was the last time I played you then???

Shadows are good against characters that can't get into the air quickly, or on a character falling after using their air jump.

The move has like over 30 frames of startup, it isn't braindead, it actually requires you to get into a safe position and a whiffed shadow is quite irritating because you committed pretty hard.

People aren't reacting to shadow startup, that is the issue. Some of my opponents have begun to be annoying about it (ie. Folks and Smokey) while some are still respecting the shadows too much... which is when it would look like the move is better than it actually is. The move disappears if you hit Fukua and she is standing there forever, so you can punish her for it with whatever and then get on top of her.

EDIT: Mike is gonna be pretty sad when/if he reads this which I assume he will. It is only beta changes after all.

It is my curse, however, to pick a mid to mid-high tier character and have them nerfed. I am sorry Fukua players, I claim full responsibility.
 
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I'm not saying you are wrong... I'm saying that maybe you arent thinking about it correctly, currently. She has received changes. The biggest one being her super fast controls lots of space fireball, does twice the damage it used to. And twice the chip as well. Her chip damage is now 50 less than what her old fireballs did... On hit.

As far as shadow being braindead. They are braindead as far as spacing is concerned, in many matchups. As far as timing is concerned they require some thought. But still... It isnt like the things have any real spacial consideration except against the high flyers. And in those matchups, double jump fireball is now a threat that does twice the damage it used to.
 
Dime_x said:
I'm not saying you are wrong... I'm saying that maybe you arent thinking about it correctly, currently. She has received changes. The biggest one being her super fast controls lots of space fireball, does twice the damage it used to. And twice the chip as well. Her chip damage is now 50 less than what her old fireballs did... On hit.

As far as shadow being braindead. They are braindead as far as spacing is concerned, in many matchups. As far as timing is concerned they require some thought. But still... It isnt like the things have any real spacial consideration except against the high flyers. And in those matchups, double jump fireball is now a thread that does twice the damage it used to.
I don't think you know what you are talking about Shadows are not braindead in any way possible, they all have long start up, you can tell what they are from the pose and chose how to deal with it and avoid it, and she dosnt have super fast space control are you kidding her fireballs are awful, especially since you can only have one out at a time, you can double jump, IAD, or just block now since the stun is now worthless and Fukua wont be able to get any thing off of it, you can probably take the hit on fireball since it still isnt a lot of damage and the fact that she cant capitalize on it.
 
That would be great if you could make your game plan revolve around landing fireballs, but I think you are missing that they also have reduced blockstun. Before, they were just shutting off vectors, not keeping anyone at bay.

They aren't going to be stopping anyone so the increased chip just means they will have a bit less health when they inevitably end up on top of you.
 
isnt j.HK massively plus on block anyway? even if it gets blocked i think you are still safe(not at my console atm.)
 
Evilweevle said:
isnt j.HK massively plus on block anyway? even if it gets blocked i think you are still safe(not at my console atm.)
they don't have to respect you AT ALL.

and even if it was plus on block i GUESS that would be the game plan. until someone actually SITS and looks and goes (oh hey i just have to chicken block) now you're put in a mix up because of a fukuing button.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
they don't have to respect you AT ALL.

and even if it was plus on block i GUESS that would be the game plan. until someone actually SITS and looks and goes (oh hey i just have to chicken block) now you're put in a mix up because of a fukuing button.
j.HK is safe even if it's chickenblocked, unlike pretty much every other air normal in the game that sends the opponent to the ground and gets you conversions on hit
 
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Yeah i wasnt actually thinking about the reduced blockstun on the neutral fireballs, that does indeed suck. But shadow being some "requires major thought" move... Ok yeah and so does updo and hornet bomber... And pillar... Wait i use those characters/ assists well... No they dont. Shadows require timing, thats about it.
 
A j.hk blocked at the tip (so the worst case block) is a balls deep +4 or +5, which is pretty much the perfect amount for a low/throw. And she's got the j.hk j.hp chain for pushblocks that no one was using because lp air fireballs were so good.
 
so you guys are saying the her other options as fukua is managable without the hitstun on fireball?
pft, you guys don't even play the character.

to the genius that said shadows is braindead. not its not. it does require timing but you have to be mindful of the opponent 24/7 to review your options on shadows.
 
Evilweevle said:
isnt j.HK massively plus on block anyway? even if it gets blocked i think you are still safe(not at my console atm.)
it dosnt matter how safe it is when she cant get in
 
yea i can see that H and L shadow you cant use just willy nilly since the hitboxes on them are pretty ass.

M shadow though? as long as you arent throwing it out below half screen whats the worst case scenario? they block it? its pretty much a napalm pillar that moves and cant be punished unless point blank, and noone is gonna throw it out at that range.
 
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if they block it you get nothing out of it aside from the realization they are too close to do it again. Thats when Fukua starts to collapse as she lacks a good reversal and has a hard time getting pressure off of her
 
now am i reading this right with BFF getting +3 startup? is that her special shadows or her super? i dont remember the names for them.

im hoping its not the specials because then my fortune ground throw conversions might not work.
 
Evilweevle said:
now am i reading this right with BFF getting +3 startup? is that her special shadows or her super? i dont remember the names for them.

im hoping its not the specials because then my fortune ground throw conversions might not work.
BFF is clone super, Forever a clone is special
 
I don't even know what that means.

"True zoning character"?

You mean a character that excels at keeping the opponent in a specific zone? So Peacock and Parasoul?

Do you want them to work like shit when they're upclose?

Fukua is the "true zoning" character?
What?

I don't even, let me get these giggles out.
 
uhh this has nothing to do with Fukua?
 
If Fukua's idea was to funnel you into j.hk, she's not really a zoning character, is she?

If anything, she's works more like Double who punishes your terrible decisions wonderfully.
 
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this thread reminds me exactly of the akuma thread on SRK after he had his forwards ground throw adv reduced by -2. man that was a funny time.

Dime_x said:
It is plus 30 on block...

noooo, surely that cant be right? thats at point blank and its still +30??? lol.
 
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fukua was designed not to funnel into j hk but to get in there with j hk fireball. the sshit crossing up was just a bonus.

face it she can't zone. and she now can't really in there as you think. i need to re-think of what should be done. but as it is now. its pretty crippling.
 
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Dreamepitaph said:
fukua was designed not to funnel into j hk but to get in there with j hk fireball. the sshit crossing up was just a bonus.

face it she can't zone. and she now can't really in there as you think. i need to re-think of what should be done. but as it is now. its pretty crippling.
I don't think she was ever meant to zone.

I think you misunderstood what I meant.

You know how Double jump HPs, jump HKs and uses Luger to play the mouse until she causes the opponent to overextend herself?

I think that's what Fukua was always meant to do, but considering her hasty conception, it probably didn't come out right the first time.

Or maybe Mike's just dicking with beta changes because it's beta and he can do that?
 
Dreamepitaph said:
fukua was designed not to funnel into j hk but to get in there with j hk fireball. the sshit crossing up was just a bonus.

see now you dont know that for sure do you? if thats the case then vanilla fortune was designed to make SG an exclusively single player game.
 
Evilweevle said:
this thread reminds me exactly of the akuma thread on SRK after he had his forwards ground throw adv reduced by -2. man that was a funny time.



noooo, surely that cant be right? thats at point blank and its still +30??? lol.


Yep tested it myself in training mode... Point blank is plus 30. Lk shadow is "only" plus twenty something whereas mk and hk are 30 plus.
 
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I don't play Fukua, and so I won't pretend that I do, but I am curious about a few things.

One of the descriptions of her playstyles is that she zones you in order to funnel you where she needs you. What's the counter-play? It always felt like I never had a choice... I always had to play her game which if true means I'm on the losing end of it from the get-go.

It also seems crazy that people are talking about her "plus on block" movelist like it's nothing. The vast majority of the cast has to get in, only to get blocked, then pushblocked out, only to repeat it as a processes. It seems like a lot of the Fukua concerns are actually just things the rest of the cast already has to deal with (She has a hard time getting in. She lacks a good reversal.)

And the thing that is most frustrating is that we compare her to the best in each aspect of the game. She can't zone like Peacock. She can't move around like Val. She can't rushdown like Fortune. Her damage isn't the tippy top. The reason this is frustrating is because she is above adequate in virtually every portion of this game... which is no small thing.

She needs a meaningful or exploitable weakness. Maybe these changes aren't it, so I'd be curious... What should her meaningful weakness be?
 
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Fukua already has weaknesses, they're aren't as easy to see as the rest of the cast, but that's just like her.

She's good at everything so her faults are kind of awkward to see.
 
Fukua has weaknesses as if you get her she cant do anything, but these nerfs are just murder,
also at point blank it is extremely telegraphed because of the start up frames moving a little bit will also cause it to whiff at closer ranges,
 
Evilweevle said:
see now you dont know that for sure do you? if thats the case then vanilla fortune was designed to make SG an exclusively single player game.
do you play the character?

I no matter which way you look at it the hitstun on fireball was just straight up crippling. the fact that people can mash out a damn cmd grab or a super is baffling. i'm playing sets with multiple people and its just straight up crazy how one can challenge an attack that LOOKS like a confirm but really isn't. what makes it even more the case is that ANYONE can run up on her at their leisure. as bouncing balls are non-existant(which i'm cool with) so you're required to stay on the ground.

i do not care that you're referring to vanilla as this is encore as in one more time. now i want you to tell me why this nerf is fair and i want a detailed analysis cause your posts so far haven't been convincing just like my whining posts.
 
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I'd be curious what they are. Is it meaningful?

When you play vs a PW or Squigs, you play differently. They have clear strengths and weaknesses which you are trying to minimize and exploit (respectively).

The only other character I can think of that has oppressive strengths and few weaknesses is Peacock, and Peacock at least starts to crumple when you catch her.

Fukua isn't bad up close (despite what people say in this thread). She is no worse (and I'd say better off) than Painwheel in blockstun. She is no worse off than a Val or Squigly under pressure. She's no worse off than most of the cast that doesn't have a meterless reversal... which is my point. It sounds like Fukua players are unhappy about having to share weaknesses that most of the cast already have.

If she was so average before, I'd be curious as to the explanation of her proliferation. She was adopted incredibly fast and at all levels of play. It was practically a known joke at how many Fukuas would be at UFGT and Evo... precisely because she doesn't have a meaningful weakness. She's always a safe bet (maybe not always the best choice for any given situation... but always a good one).

Like I said above, maybe these changes aren't the right way to approach it. But Fukua players are saying there was no problem to begin with... and that's part of the problem.
 
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Spencer said:
I'd be curious what they are. Is it meaningful?

When you play vs a PW or Squigs, you play differently. They have clear strengths and weaknesses which you are trying to minimize and exploit (respectively).

The only other character I can think of that has oppressive strengths and few weaknesses is Peacock, and Peacock at least starts to crumple when you catch her.

Fukua isn't bad up close (despite what people say in this thread). She is no worse (and I'd say better off) than Painwheel in blockstun. She is no worse off than a Val or Squigly under pressure. She's no worse off than most of the cast that doesn't have a meterless reversal... which is my point. It sounds like Fukua players are unhappy about having to share weaknesses that most of the cast already have.

If she was so average before, I'd be curious as to the explanation of her proliferation. She was adopted incredibly fast and at all levels of play. It was practically a known joke at how many Fukuas would be at UFGT and Evo... precisely because she doesn't have a meaningful weakness. She's always a safe bet (maybe not always the best choice for any given situation... but always a good one).

Like I said above, maybe these changes aren't the right way to approach it. But Fukua players are saying there was no problem to begin with... and that's part of the problem.
well Squigly and Val have much better invincible supers, Fukua on the other hand has super drill which even if it does connect sometimes will be dropped mid move allowing for a counter attack Her mobility is awfully limited and her neutral was always lackluster, ESPECIALLY WITH THE FIREBALL NERF, Fukua is just overrated
 
Spencer said:
I'd be curious what they are. Is it meaningful?

When you play vs a PW or Squigs, you play differently. They have clear strengths and weaknesses which you are trying to minimize and exploit (respectively).

The only other character I can think of that has oppressive strengths and few weaknesses is Peacock, and Peacock at least starts to crumple when you catch her.

Fukua isn't bad up close (despite what people say in this thread). She is no worse (and I'd say better off) than Painwheel in blockstun. She is no worse off than a Val or Squigly under pressure. She's no worse off than most of the cast that doesn't have a meterless reversal... which is my point. It sounds like Fukua players are unhappy about having to share weaknesses that most of the cast already have.

If she was so average before, I'd be curious as to the explanation of her proliferation. She was adopted incredibly fast and at all levels of play. It was practically a known joke at how many Fukuas would be at UFGT and Evo... precisely because she doesn't have a meaningful weakness. She's always a safe bet (maybe not always the best choice for any given situation... but always a good one).

Like I said above, maybe these changes aren't the right way to approach it. But Fukua players are saying there was no problem to begin with... and that's part of the problem.
ok spencer part of the matchup is because you use .....painwheel.

fukua wants to keep people at a certain range. j hk is a more defensive tool. cause i mean what does she got? j hk into fireball you block and pushblock that.

of course she had a problem BUT THIS ISN"T it NOR has any fukua said ANYTHING about her not having a problem. what kills me is that you're looking for a problem when its right there. once you get to fukua you reset her constantly. like crossunders and crossovers.
getting in there is dependent on the player AND how the fukua fights. once you're mid range you can get in. now don't ask me how cause i don't main that character but many Painwheels got in on me cause they timed j hp CORRECTLY and hit me as i discharged the shadow.
 
I'm sorry but the last two posts were terrible writeups of Fukua's weaknesses.
Fukua is decent at everything, but a master of none, that's her weakness.
She has moves that are hella + on block, but no real mixup to speak of.
She has a double jump, but no airdash to speak of.
Her fireball is decent, but nothing to write home about.
Drill is punishable on block.

Fukua can rely on nothing.

Her upclose game isn't strong enough for her to be in forever.
Every reversal besides BFF loses to throws, and that has a +3 startup now.
Her faraway game isn't scary enough for her to stay there.

She HAS to rely off the opponent's fuckups to really start her game, something no other character has to really worry about, even Double can dick around until she gets her 2 meters.
 
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