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Fukua General Discussion

No idea why invinc startup on Drill Super got nerfed. IMO it should just be 1 or 2f vuln so it's not something you really really want to use as a reversal, but that's it - there's no combo out of it and it whiffs lots of times and it's HYPER punisheable, so it's not that strong in the first place;
At the same time it's clearly an AA super and losing to the opponent's buttons with your AA super is kinda shit.

Command Throw nerf was necessary; it was never intended to beat throws in neutral (as seen by not having throw invinc unlike say DDrop). Throws have 7f startup, Cmd Throw thus gets 8. Very simple.
You'll still be at tremendous frame advantage when doing it generally, as you cancel out of moves into it - most of the times you had to super delay the cancel due to else whiffing the CmdThrow anyway, so there's really little to no change here.

Air Fireball being a Doom without Doom's weaknesses was super retarded, hitstun/blockstun nerf with damage buff is a good thing.
I do miss doublejump combos though, they were the coolest shit.
Maybe there's a way to lower hit/blockstun without completely neutering it (Air Fireballs went from +15 point blank to +2 point blank on hit, that's.. rather big. At least high enough that Combo > Air Fireball > Doublejump > Airthrow/j.HK becomes a legit frametrap that can't just be button mashed through is imo relevant)
Dunno about the bounce thing, have to play matches first. Don't really like the sound of it; it controls space which is nice and it keeps the fireball on screen for a time so if you whiff it you're fucked which is nice.
Beta version seems to be a buff for people bad at tossing fireballs, but yeah I'll play first before saying anything definite.

Airthrow convert with xx L.ADart, s.MK c.HP xx Shadow works anywhere (haven't tested char universality) which is pretty strong and IMO a clearcut buff to before, but Oki was cooler. Every character gets combos out of their airthrow, some with meter some without.. Fukua sitting there with her sliding knockdown was rather refreshing.
Would prefer to have the old way back.

Anti-BFF Throwwhiff into Punish being more relevant is significant but cool.
H.Drill xx BFF not being possible anymore is a *HUGE* nerf .. and I don't get why it was done in the first place, as her defence was already pretty shit.
I'd rather the move was changed to only having a supercancel window on hit, to keep out the retarded "H.Drill under someone who crossed you up, he dashes after to punish, BFF him".
At least BFF should stop getting crossed up in the corner, it always seemed kinda silly.
Further note, I *really* want L/M Drill xx BFF back, it's the only way for her to get Damage out of pressing buttons, and as a space control character with decent buttons it seems kinda.. weird? That she gets 0 reward for doing so.

E: Overall I think the nerf direction is right, but not quite there.
 
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I'm not trying to turn this into a character match up advice column. So I'll say my bit and give you all the last word on it if you want to take it.

At this point we are considering Squigly's Daisy "I can jump out of it" Pusher and Battle "whoops, it just whiffed" Opera as great mashable options than we've passed the point of reasonable discussion. Even if Val does have a better mashed super, we are still comparing shitty defense to marginally shittier defense... so what? My point still stands. Namely that she's not really all that worse off than other characters who also have meaningful weaknesses elsewhere.

@iLoli
I can see that, and maybe we are looking at the same issue with different concerns. I think she's unreasonably strong because she's not bad anywhere. She's not great anywhere, and so she may never have a 7-3 MU... but she also never has a 3-7 MU... which means fuck it. Pick her up. If she only always performs adequately... she's still performing adequately (which again... I think accounts for her almost immediate popularity).

And while she may have to rely on her opponents fuck-ups, her opponent equally needs to rely on her to fuck up. She's not free. Not for anyone, and she needs be respected at any range else you risk eating a j.hk that seems to come from nowhere. You know that feeling you get when you are in a Peacock's face? Or when PW is flying in the upper corner? That feeling of safety no matter how brief? You never get that feeling vs a Fukua.

Anyway, I'm going to bow out. I've added my thoughts from the other side of that matchup.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Uh, since when? It used to be +3 on hit
Jesus Christ that's what I get for typing while doing other things.
Thanks for that catch.

@Spencer A few of those fears are born out of ignorance and not reality.

Fukua is not a threat everywhere, she's a threat at midscreen and 'meh' up close.
You're right about her matchups.

Fukua is:
Easy to pickup and play, there really shouldn't be a debate about this, her execution barrier is minimal and each spot on the screen has a clear cut decision, unless you're feeling wild.
Has great assists(FUUUUCCCCKKKK M CLONE AS AN ASSSIST), is a decent point, and her ability to slow down the pace of a match and fireball super make her an okay anchor.

There are the reasons everyone and their mom has a pocket Fukua.

She's easy, so fuck it, might as well play around with her.

I personally hate the character, but two of my playing partners love her to death so I'm pretty used to her by now.
 
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Dreamepitaph said:
ever got challenged for making the right call of j hk into fireball and unexpectingly dynamo or in the best parts getting Hatred guard? Me neither.
Ever been the most predictable motherfucker on the planet because "j.HK into Fireball" was ALWAYS EVERYWHERE HOLY SHIT the 'right call', and then people did something super risky and hit you because your playstyle was retarded as shit? Yeah I haven't.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Ever been the most predictable motherfucker on the planet because "j.HK into Fireball" was ALWAYS EVERYWHERE HOLY SHIT the 'right call', and then people did something super risky and hit you because your playstyle was retarded as shit? Yeah I haven't.
if i hit confirmed into j hk tho that's retarded?
 
Was there ever any justification for these changes, they drastically change how she plays. She was fine before, she had stuff but not as good as the rest of the cast and they should have left it at that
 
Dreamepitaph said:
if i hit confirmed into j hk tho that's retarded?
If your hitconfirm could be like 3 character spaces away.............We're pushing it.
 
iLoli said:
If your hitconfirm could be like 3 character spaces away.............We're pushing it.
*cough* para *cough* (kidding)

i would like the hitstun to be enough so when i pull in with j hk up close and do fireball i should be able to convert and whoopsies i meant confirmed with j hk not fireball INTO j hk :D
 
A hitconfirm is a button or series of relatively safe buttons/string that you can do on both block and hit to visually confirm into the more damaging, yet unsafe(or moves with too much startup) portion of your combo.

They CAN be one in the same, but in this case I'm not really feeling it.

Just getting the crossup fireball isn't a hitconfirm, just getting the M clone isn't a hitconfrim.
It's a conversion.

You converted off of something, you did not put out something with the mindset of a confirm, you didn't think nor even act with "I need to get to my fast, unsafe launcher, how do I do so, with faster, safer button".

Someone just decided to not block.

Ehhhheeewwwww this post feels a little weak but I hope I got my opinion across clear enough.
 
ahem, can any one come up with any justifications for these nerfs I still think they are undeserved, honestly the only thing that I care about being changed back is the fireballs stun,
 
DeathArcana said:
ahem, can any one come up with any justifications for these nerfs I still think they are undeserved, honestly the only thing that I care about being changed back is the fireballs stun,
You CAN ask the man himself, considering he just replied back to me on another thread, he's probably still on.
PM him? It'll probably be along the lines of "I'm just trying some shit out because I feel like it".
 
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actually here he is in this thread welcome Mr. Z
 
IsaVulpes said:
Airthrow convert with xx L.ADart, s.MK c.HP xx Shadow works anywhere (haven't tested char universality) which is pretty strong and IMO a clearcut buff to before

Nah, the usual funky SG OTG hurtboxes make this pretty character+height specific.
 
DeathArcana said:
ahem, can any one come up with any justifications for these nerfs I still think they are undeserved, honestly the only thing that I care about being changed back is the fireballs stun,
I can come up with justifications, would you like some? (One of them is that I am not a Fukua player who only looks at the game from my character's side.)
Fireballs were plus on block, ambiguous which side you needed to block them from if you used proper crossup setups, and let you confirm from 2/3 screen away (or full superjump height) off a random hit.
I'd like people to use the rest of her game, not just that. She doesn't suck without those confirms, and her actual ZONING game is better with the extra damage and chip.

Dreamepitaph said:
can we plz have hitstun back
Hell no. Maybe like 3f, but like before? No way.

That was THE thing that needed to get changed. As evidenced by the fact that that's THE thing you're all whining about now. :^)

I could do something like decaying hitstun over time, in fact we can try that so you get your doublejump combos and close confirms back, but random distanced confirms? NOPE.
Zone or combo, not zone and run up half a screen and combo anyway.

Dreamepitaph said:
3. not likely but can we have the non tech air throw back? if not don't care but i would like the first thing to be back.
Much more likely, in fact this one I'm perfectly open to, if there's some kinda agreement among players.

DeathArcana said:
actually here he is in this thread welcome Mr. Z
You know I think you're annoying, right? :^)
 
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how does that work? isnt that like how the hitstun works already?
 
DeathArcana said:
how does that work? isnt that like how the hitstun works already?
- I have no idea about the correct values, so I'll just make shit up. -
Fireball has 20f recovery, 35f hitstun (or 22f hitstun in Beta).

Current frame advantage on hit is just Hitstun-Recovery
So if you hit it point blank you are +15(or +2 in Beta), and if you hit it from from far away, say you have been through 15f recovery of the fireball already before it connects, it puts you at +30(or +17 in Beta) due to still hitting for 35f hitstun but you only have 5f recovery left - so while being farther away, you also have way more time to run up to the opponent and punch them.

Decaying hitstun would be eg still be 35f point blank and thus +15f if it hits up close, but then for every frame it travels it would lose 1f of hitstun; say you have been through 15f of the fireball recovery already then it only hits for 20f hitstun, 5f recovery left = You're still at +15, but this time you don't get your conversion because you're too far away.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
I didn't think this was a possible thing, but if it is man I'm wild
SG has a good scripting system, it's not even that hard to do.

We'll give that a try tonight. It might make her a little too random for you people to like, though.

Also FWIW there's a difference between what I mean and "hitstun decay over the course of a combo" like in BB/GG. This is more like Ryu's red fireball in ST.

- edit -
I don't mind either way for the airthrow, but if you got back non-tech I'd make sure you wouldn't be able to super afterward. You guys have your own discussion about this somewhere.
 
wait were we able to super right after air throw before?
 
A hard knockdown is just a reset point you learn a canned mixup for that you'll be sick of in a week. I guess the hard knockdown airthrow is at least unique compared to all the other characters. Maybe if it had some gimmick on top or something it wouldn't seem like fake diversity.
 
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obregon said:
A hard knockdown is just a reset point you learn a canned mixup for that you'll be sick of in a week. I guess the hard knockdown airthrow is at least unique compared to all the other characters. Maybe if it had some gimmick on top or something it wouldn't seem like fake diversity.
This.

I get some like to keep them cornered. If there's a way Mike can make combos after new throw work on the whole cast, you should take that and practice some restand resets or air resets off it.

I also recommend asking for Drill Super (ground and air) to have startup invincibility. Highly punishable but Fukua would have gained something vs air resets.

Not a Fukua player at all.
 
Since teching about air throw can go either way:

I'll vote non-techable air throw.
 
If we can't follow up on corner throw if we chose untechable, I guess techable.

If j.HK xx 236LP can be linked into a light on a standing opponent, I'm happy enough.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Snip
Okay, played some matches:

- No idea what the Drill Super nerf is for, both are pretty much limited to being combo enders now. Even in cases where Air Drill would be a viable reversal (eg opponent fastfalls and I have some time to act in the air) I'll always use Air Fireball instead. Can't even DHC properly out of it :(
- Cmd Throw nerf is pretty much invisible, as expected.
- Air Fireball is a lot less stupid now. I miss the Rejump combos and at least want to be on frame advantage after Rejump (rather than neutral and just getting punched out of my j.LP/Airthrow); interested in the decay hitstun change, but I have difficulties seeing how it would work while fixing the most glaring issues (IMO the problem with the move isn't getting random confirms from far away, but the fully safe j.HK xx L.ADart / raw L.ADart jumparound spammage which converts into full combos. Part of the issue is that you can do this from a height that the opponent can't reach, but I dunno if that's all of the issue. Curious to see how effective being stupid like that is gonna be with the hitstun decay; currently it's not very good which is.. very good.). Also looking forward to my doublejump combos profiting from the fireball dmg increase :~
Bonus note: Fireball hitstun change is actually a buff in certain places; as there are a lot of weird surprising crossunders after airnormal airnormal xx adart - before, that was largely irrelevant cus the opponent was stuck in hitstun anyway (useful for sideswitches during combos, but that's about it); now these are legit resets.
- Still dunno about the Airdart Bounce change. Maybe give the bounce to M, but no bounce for L (supergood upclose tool) or H (ruins half the cast at fullscreen for 0 work)? That way M becomes the premier space control Fireball, which sounds like a nice thing to me cus it doesn't do much else; while L got the j.HK shenanigans and H is incontestable by 90% of the cast. It never had the bounce though, so I dunno maybe it would be busted? Or something.
Not having the bounce definitely makes it harder to find the space/time to get a shadow out; at the same time not having it allows you to fireball zone much more efficiently due to it being locked out for less time (jumpback low L.Adart, opponent jumps forward, s.HK xx H.Dart works now).
IMO definitely remove the bounce for H.ADart and see what it does for L/M - and what you want L/M to do.
- Combos after Airthrow are cool, despite me fucking them up allatime and not having played around with them in general. Gives more resets etc. Would still prefer the hard kd for variety's sake, but don't /really/ care one way or another.
- BFF bonus startup and H.Drill xx BFF not working anymore are fine (though I keep dying due to muscle memory BFF after H.Drill). I still don't think the latter thing is necessary, and would prefer my change thing due to this hurting her teamposition versatility, but shrug.
- I'd still like L/M.Drill xx BFF back, espec if Adart bounce doesn't return (as it's a kinda important thing for Oki setups etc after Fireball Super, so removing s.MK xx L.Drill xx BFF combos AND weakening oki after s.MK xx L.Drill xx Kiss seems uncalled for)
- Yay Mike said the BFF corner crossup thing is a bug and will get fixed

In the end, Fukua is still Fukua and still really fucking good.
M Fireball has really fast startup and flies fast, catching people a bunch, and the doubled damage on this *really* stacks up.
Her zoning is safe and efficient - fireballs being +50 on hit or not; most of her longrange confirms came from shadows anyway and those are unchanged.
Damage is high, mixups are good albeit meter intensive, buttons are strong despite her abare taking a notable hit, and overall she's just easy and safe and safe and easy and whatever.
What's nerfed the most is going full derp with j.HK xx L.ADart until one lands a hit, and I hope nobody is seriously missing this?
Pretty sure anyone saying RIP Fukua either can't play or didn't actually test the changes and just went onwards with crying.

I am still digging/hoping for other changes such as

- MK.Shadow getting a minimum range, as s.HK xx M.Shadow is super braindead, controls the entire screen, leaves you at +30f in the opponents face on block while converting into full combos from pretty much anywhere, while being nigh impossible to avoid. With just a short minimum range, there'd be a proper counter (get in), while also avoiding the most stupid things (Shadow hitting you out of crossups). Maybe moving the hitbox a nudge higher so it's low profilable by more things (not by "crouching", but eg by some character's c.MK? Filia can avoid it with c.HP, unsure about other characters) would work as well, but I figure one would just get hit out of the whiffed normal's recovery by Fukua.
- Some hitbox nerf to j.HK as it's still a 100f hitstun normal that is one of the best air to airs and air to grounds and punishes and throw dodge and whatever normals, ..
E: zeknife pointed out to me that there WAS a hitbox nerf to j.HK. The Shamone part comes out earlier, giving her a large vulnerable hurtbox for a while before it becomes active. I didn't really notice this while playing, but it might be sufficient.
- While a bunch of other normals could use with some touchups in the other direction; j.HP has as weak a hitbox as it does because it's copied from Filia and IAD 10f j.Fierce really shouldn't be better than that, but Fukua could live with this becoming her go-to air to air normal; c.HP is worse than Filia's for some reason; c.HK is really cool but it could be EVEN COOLER; whatever

.. But overall I'm rather happy with the current direction of the changes. Anything that makes her less stupid is a huge buff to the most important aspect of any character: Fun.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
You know what can be linked into a light on a standing opponent? j.HK
What do you need the Fireball for?
Because fireball can be used to crossup as a mixup to j.HK > j.HP. j.HK can be used as a mixup with... well air throw in the air I guess but nothing else.
 
OK, question for those with better fukuas than mine: what do you do against peacock now? I used to use h.drill to go through a projectile and get close enough to bff if they called george/doom. Given that that's not an option, what now?
 
Mr. X said:
If there's a way Mike can make combos after new throw work on the whole cast

Well, the beta has gone back to hard knockdown, but in the previous version you can get midscreen airthrow -> lp air fireball + call assist conversions with most of the usual top tier assists (bomber, etc). You would probably just consider the no-assist midscreen conversions on a few characters to be a nice bonus.
 
alexpi said:
OK, question for those with better fukuas than mine: what do you do against peacock now? I used to use h.drill to go through a projectile and get close enough to bff if they called george/doom. Given that that's not an option, what now?
Fireball Super was always a great option.

BFF is also back to comboing after H.Drill in the current Beta (Mike hates it though)
 
IsaVulpes said:
BFF is also back to comboing after H.Drill in the current Beta (Mike hates it though)

Hurray! Also, if we lost all the things Mike hates, wouldn't that mean pretty much everyone who played in the EVO tourney would be missing?
 
alright so my thoughts since i kinda forgot this thread existed until yesterday.

1. the command grab nerf seems so random. why is that a thing? i thought it was fine at 4 frames. is that something you'd consider putting back?

2. i can safely say without a doubt that i'm not a fan of not being able to block after an air fireball. and a lot of the times i'd rather not stay in the air even longer just to block. i'd prefer to block/attack after an air fireball.

3. i would much prefer to be able to combo off of the air throw. i thought that was really neat instead of having to go for a mixup afterwards and was kinda sad that it was changed back to normal today

thats really it for me. i think every other change is fine and everything else about the character is fine
 
Patch Notes said:
- Fukua can't attack or block while falling after an air fireball, but she can double-jump (and block or attack after double-jumping). Possibly an interesting tradeoff because she's stuck in the air for longer if she doublejumps.

For the love of God, please keep this. This change alone stops Fukua's air fireball from being a braindead go-to spam option no matter your position onscreen.

@Negus Eyoel, you can still block by double-jumping and it makes the move safe to do in many situations, just without the benefit of being able to do whatever you want after a superjump air fireball. If you want to do pointblank air fireballs, superjump > fireball > doublejump back is still pretty safe on block. A-Train and Excellabella have too slow a startup to intercept your doublejump on block.
 
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welp....as much as i like drill assist...it's time to put my terrible photoshop skills to use in order to develop the only solution to this Fukua nerf

6x4GIvc.png


Based God has spoken. lel
 
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