Full Undizzy Sequences - Community Poll.

Discussion in 'Gameplay General' started by Mike_Z, Feb 7, 2017.

?

Should anything be done to address the damage available above 240 Undizzy? (Read the post please)

Poll closed Feb 10, 2017.
  1. Yes - and I'm fully aware there may be some consequences I don't like

    71.9%
  2. No - do nothing

    28.1%
  1. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    Skullgirls is based on community-oriented game development, so I'll get right to it:

    We have one specific gameplay problem. We have one patch left, to add Japanese voices and fix lobby bugs. I am fine either not changing things or changing things, but if things change they will go into the Beta for a MAXIMUM OF THREE DAYS, and if there are new bugs introduced as a result those bugs will be present FOREVER.

    People have been finding one-reset sequences that lead to 100% in 3v3:


    Remember 3v3 has extra damage, so these aren't restricted to these characters. In testing I found 3v3 versions of this without DHCs using Val/Dive of Horus/X, Filia/LnL/X, Fortune/Axe/X, and Squigly/H Danger/X...which were all the teams I tested. :^P

    These don't bother me very much, because this happens to trios, so "losing a character in two touches" just becomes an overall downside of playing a trio, since trios can already lose a character in two (or even one) touch in 2v3 or 1v3. So maybe a trio isn't always the best pick, that's fine with me, duos and solos exist. Do your dang research. :^\

    BUT

    They do demonstrate a symptom of Undizzy that I have never liked, which this clip shows off very well:

    Namely, that you're still able to do a pretty good chunk of damage above 240 Undizzy, as well as lead into setups.

    So what can be done? Any combination of various things...
    Do not assume I'd do everything listed. I just listed them all because it's more to discuss.

    Game-wide things I am open to doing because they directly affect only the problem area:
    - [revised] All non-super hits at 240+ Undizzy are automatically scaled to minimum damage. If you want to reset into meter use, I have no problem with that doing real damage. This also basically doesn't affect existing combos, since by the time you get to 240 Undizzy you're already at minimum scaling so the new rule would change nothing.
    - Automatically move to Combo Stage 5 as soon as any hit is landed at Stage 2+ at 240+ Undizzy. So 2->5 or 3->5, even in the middle of a chain, thereby restricting you to exactly one unburstable chain including throws in that situation, minus jumpins.
    - [revised] Minimum meter gain for the attacker and maximum meter gain for the victim when the victim is above 240 Undizzy.

    Character-specific things I'm partially open to doing that do not just affect Undizzy:
    - Band can't use his taunted supers in the same combo where he gains the taunt. Even as a Band player I actually wanted to do this before, and forgot. >.<
    - A-Train can give Undizzy bursts when not chained into. Band is an exception in the game here, Buer/Excella/etc already do this.
    - Pummel Horse can give Undizzy bursts when not chained into. This also turns out to be useful at max undizzy because it gives free damage and leads to Dynamo, thank you JDbbx.
    - Canis Major Press, and EX, can give Undizzy bursts when not chained into. I am not sure this is possible to track without introducing hella bugs, though.
    - Excellebella assist scales to minimum damage OR has a shorter animation that's still long enough for Val to get a vial off of but not long enough to taunt during, like just the slap. These sorta affect the problem, but they also reduce the opponent's annoyance in a bunch of situations. :^P I'm personally just for min scaling.

    Things I'm NOT open to doing:
    - Automatically granting a burst as soon as Undizzy reaches 240 no matter what. Nope.
    - Ground-tech inputs > burst inputs. This would remove all existing "hard knockdown" burst bait setups, which are neat, and also doesn't really address the problem.
    - Increasing HP from 15500 to 16700. This does solve the problem of dying, but it directly makes zoning worse which I don't want to do again, and affects all sorts of other things.
    - All sliding knockdowns are techable once you're above 240. Note that this does not solve the problem in cases where sliding knockdowns are not used, and doesn't fix the problem when the knockdown is a burst bait anyway.

    I'm also open to doing nothing.

    Please vote, and respond with your opinion.
    Any shitposts or derailing the discussion should expect some kind of ban. We don't have time for that junk now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
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  2. Clawsome Bombs

    Clawsome Bombs H E I S T B O Y S before GTAV lol

    Steam:
    ClawsomeBombs
    PSN:
    Noraas
    Eliza
    Squigly
    Ms. Fortune
    All three of the game wide things I'd gladly agree with as this wonbo bombo dmg is not exclusive to everyone's favorite three heavy hitters

    Automatic Stage 5 is the one I'm most interested in.
     
  3. Raposa

    Raposa Autistic Fox

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/foxspirit
    Double
    Squigly
    Big Band
    Do nothing pls
     
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  4. Number 13

    Number 13 Training. Off-Topic Mod

    Location:
    Brentwood, Ca
    Steam:
    HooliganComboFTW
    Filia
    Might as well fix the game as much as possible to your vision with the last patch which is mainly for the Japanese voices/bugs. Game came far game balance wise since the vanilla release because of these beta trials.
     
  5. JDbbx

    JDbbx Active Member

    Valentine
    Cerebella
    if the change(s) do go through we need to test them pretty extensively over the three days

    i'm saying this because while a reduction in 1 reset kills would be nice i care much much more about not making brand new bugs/unintentional buffs/nerfs etc


    EDIT1: fwiw i agree with removing the huge damage and/or reducing max undizzy combos to one unburstable string but removing the setups seems counter-productive


    EDIT2: also this should affect more than just "big damage trios" since most teams can kill in one reset for 2 meter or less

     
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  6. dragonos451

    dragonos451 Combo crafting is fun

    Location:
    France
    Steam:
    dragonos451
    Cerebella
    Extra forced damage scaling above 240+ undizzy appeals to me the most.
    I'm not sure how much meter gain changes would affect the issue tho?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
  7. Sinclair

    Sinclair smug

    Location:
    Europe
    Eliza
    Double
    is it worth bugging the game for this
    yes :))
     
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  8. Red Witch

    Red Witch I'm a viera IRL

    Location:
    Muscadet, St. Ivalice
    Steam:
    Red Witch
    PSN:
    IceMateria
    Filia
    Fukua
    I'm down with everything but the Beo change if it has a high chance of introducing bugs. Also am willing to heavily test over the three day period. This game runs pretty smooth and i'd much rather not have a crazy bug in the game forever just for Beowulf to be slightly less silly.
     
  9. Mr Peck

    Mr Peck that UK Peacock player Lab Zero

    Location:
    Guildford, UK
    Peacock
    Robo Fortune
    I assume this damage reduction wouldn't apply to supers? (edit: that balance idea has since been changed) That aside, reducing the damage you can get from a combo at max undizzy (whether it's by reducing combo length or directly reducing damage) sounds great to me. Peacock/Beam currently deals 7k damage in the corner from a 240 undizzy start, which feels kinda crazy.

    (if anyone cares: sLP cMP cMK cHP sHK hold L item drop, OTG sLK cMP cMK cHP sHK L george + beam assist, release level 3 item, argus)
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
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  10. Midiman

    Midiman Person, SG Player, Guy who likes cats Gameplay Mod

    Cerebella
    Eliza
    I vote for moving to Combo Stage 5 after any hit in Stage 2+. I'd rather my opponent have to make some sort of sacrifice to make a setup, or get any advantage while I have 240 Undizzy. You can still get whatever you want, but you can't do what you normally do without making a sacrifice. I'd _ALSO_ add the meter gain/loss part as well, just to force the players hand into making a choice, and if they choose to keep going, and I don't end up _dying_ for this string actions, the impending threat of the opponent being left battered but still having a chunk of meter should be enough to deter you from doing it all the time?

    That's how I feel at least
     
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  11. SonicFox5000

    SonicFox5000 The Furriest one here maybe CB/EVO Champ '15

    PSN:
    SonicFox5000
    XBL:
    SonicFox5000
    Filia
    Double
    Fukua
    I am FOR character specific changes but I am AGAINST undizzy changes. The undizzy changes would take WAAY more than 3 days to FULLY flesh out so. But I do think Big band and bella could use toning hehe
     
  12. Red Witch

    Red Witch I'm a viera IRL

    Location:
    Muscadet, St. Ivalice
    Steam:
    Red Witch
    PSN:
    IceMateria
    Filia
    Fukua
    Oh, ONE MORE THING!

     
  13. Clawsome Bombs

    Clawsome Bombs H E I S T B O Y S before GTAV lol

    Steam:
    ClawsomeBombs
    PSN:
    Noraas
    Eliza
    Squigly
    Ms. Fortune
    Yeah this 3v2 one reset Death vid had me ultra shook

    It feels like Duos will be completely shafted because now they don't have as many assist options OR health next to Trios/Solos
     
  14. Yomabuddy

    Yomabuddy I don't play Big Band just for the assist.

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Steam:
    Yomabuddy
    Filia
    Big Band
    The incoming character comes in with full undizzy and hence will not really die in two touches without the attacker becoming heavily meter negative.

    I think people really need to get better at beating characters that are good at this and approaching such problems from a strategic manner instead of crying and qqing.

    (In case Isa wants to shitpost "But you play Band xD :^)" L Extend does nothing to help me here)
     
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  15. Clawsome Bombs

    Clawsome Bombs H E I S T B O Y S before GTAV lol

    Steam:
    ClawsomeBombs
    PSN:
    Noraas
    Eliza
    Squigly
    Ms. Fortune
    Sure we could do that
    If this was exclusive to certain characters

    As this game finally leaves "beta status", players will fight more and grow more and find this with other characters

    I feel the Undizzy changes would fix that 5-7 years in advance.
     
  16. Red Witch

    Red Witch I'm a viera IRL

    Location:
    Muscadet, St. Ivalice
    Steam:
    Red Witch
    PSN:
    IceMateria
    Filia
    Fukua
    The main problem is that this sort of thing is possible. And one of the videos above show a trio team completely ignoring full undizzy from the start.
     
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  17. nuclearpotatosa

    nuclearpotatosa Member

    Location:
    Illinois
    Steam:
    NuclearPotato
    Parasoul
    Fukua
    Cerebella
    I'm certainly up for all of the character specific changes, though I think I'd prefer Excellebella assist to just be shortened to avoid safe taunts as opposed to the full damage scaling. System-wide changes I'd have to play around with (or at least think about them harder) before I could come to any conclusion of which would be best though.
     
  18. acfan

    acfan ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Location:
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Steam:
    acfan
    PSN:
    acfan17
    Painwheel
    Filia
    Double
    I heavily prefer moving the combo stage to 5 when at 240 undizzy, and making it so BB cannot taunt super in the same combo in which he taunts.
     
  19. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    All for these two

    Game-wide changes also yes, but have to figure out what I am thinking there first
     
  20. HiroProtagonest

    HiroProtagonest Splatoonatic

    Steam:
    Hiro Protagonest
    PSN:
    Hiro Protagonest
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Big Band
    Hm, I like this, but we'd really have to think of the implications. This could be an amazing game-changer that encourages more early resets or even neutral game, or it might just lead to time-outs.
    Does this mean you can't use any assists in the chain? I'm not familiar enough with the intricacies of full undizzy resets to understand how to get more than one chain off them. It sounds like less of a gamechanger while solving the problem, might be the most effective solution!
    Edit: Actually that was dumb.

    Well, if you were going to change it anyway... ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
  21. Aden

    Aden Beep Boop Meow

    Steam:
    AdenPhoenix
    PSN:
    AdenPhoenix13
    Painwheel
    Squigly
    Parasoul
    Personally I'd like lower undizzy but I understand that isn't an option. Honestly I don't object to most of the changes other than the following.
    I just really don't like this idea, I don't have a lot to say about it other than that.
    I don't like this one, but I fully understand it and I'd much rather have this than the next one I quote.
    I absolutely hate this, it's an assist I've used since I started playing Skullgirls and the ability to use it for taunts is pretty invaluable for those characters, who really need their taunts (Beo especially). Beo already has a bunch of restrictions on how hype works in a combo, and I guess adding the above restriction to Big Band would balance him out more even though I don't like it.

    These ideas make me lean more towards "do nothing", honestly.
     
  22. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    EDITED Game-Wide #1 with a change that affects currently existing combos less, but still affects full undizzy resets.

    The Excellebella one is "or", and I'm honestly just for reduced damage.

    Also I guess I should add it to the post but there's no reason to assume I'd do everything suggested. I just listed them all.
     
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  23. HiroProtagonest

    HiroProtagonest Splatoonatic

    Steam:
    Hiro Protagonest
    PSN:
    Hiro Protagonest
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Big Band
    Yes, that sounds better than the old one! I still really like Game-wide #2, assuming it does solve the problem. '>_>
     
  24. Lex

    Lex Skill pending

    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    Steam:
    Lex
    PSN:
    Ilexyellowdog
    Valentine
    Filia
    Double
    On Excellabella, I disagree with nerfing this assist's length (maybe scaling). The assist is largely only used for setplay (or resets or whatever you want to call it). For characters like Val, Band, etc the ability to gain multiple vials or a taunt is of huge importance to the assist and if you remove that then there is far less reason to choose this assist over Copter or LnL. Setplay specific assists are already pretty uncommon with people almost always opting for assists that help their character in neutral. I don't think weakening an assist that is almost exclusively for setplay is a good idea.

    I'm definitely up for trying out the system changes and some of the character specific changes. Given this is the last patch, though, I think that only the changes that are least likely to result in bugs should be tried.
     
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  25. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    None of the game-wide things completely solve the problem by themselves. Damage scaling and Combo Stage 5 together come the closest.
     
  26. missingno

    missingno Bird/Normal

    Location:
    PA
    Steam:
    /id/MegaMissingno
    Valentine
    Robo Fortune
    Parasoul
    This sounds reasonable. I like that it only affects damage and nothing else, keep it simple.
    Don't like the sound of this one, simply because it's a pretty jarring mechanical change that'll affect a lot more than just these 1 reset ToDs. I'm used to doing stage 2 3 (4) into another reset or bait, I'd have to unlearn all of that and figure out what else I can do at 240 now.
    I'm hella in favor of these, it always felt kinda questionable to me that these moves basically bypassed IPS. Though I realize it may be a bit hypocritical of me to say I don't want to unlearn/relearn the stuff I do at 240 while Band and Beo would have to.
     
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  27. Liam

    Liam ... Administrator

    Location:
    West Canada
    Steam:
    Skarmand
    PSN:
    Skarmand
    Robo Fortune
    Double
    So you would have to optimize to end your oki / start your reset at 235 instead of 240, then you'd get one extremely powerful chain with your assist thrown in if it's a heavy hitter, then your next chain would max Undizzy on the light and the rest would be scaled.

    It's not really easy to test that but I'd be curious to see if people can still do these 3v3 set ups ending at 235 instead of 240, so they get one unscaled chain then one scaled.
     
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  28. Adeveis

    Adeveis PS3 Skullbats Host

    Location:
    Norcross, GA
    Steam:
    Adeveis
    PSN:
    Sabaku45dahaka
    Parasoul
    Squigly
    Big Band
    I'm fine with pretty much any change that goes through.
     
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  29. dekillsage

    dekillsage Gloomy EVO Champ 2014

    Beowulf
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    My biggest issues weren't the 1 reset kills, but the 1 reset kills at max undizzy. It made undizzy feel a little pointless when you played certain team combinations so any changes to make max undizzy a bit worse for the attacker is what I'm voting for.

    My Combination of changes

    I feel like this follows the idea of "reset early for high reward", while not taking away from optimizing your combos. Once you kill a character I don't think your next hits at max undizzy should be almost as good if not as good as no undizzy combos, so I'm for this change over the others.

    Yes. He can still do combo -> taunt -> hkd. Next mix up you get to cash out.

    Also yes. This is just crazy IMO.

    I much prefer this. I like the assist as a way to build your resource or set up something(taunts, tear tosses, vial loads, shadows etc). So I would want all that to be the same, but since you get to build that resource you don't get to do as much damage with it.

    I don't really feel like this is needed if max undizzy dmg and excellebella damage get reduced.

    edit: If this change is because the combos can take a long time at the end of a bnb then uhhh yeah. I feel it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
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  30. Tomo009

    Tomo009 Well-Known Member

    Eliza
    Robo Fortune
    Beowulf
    The game wide stuff I'm completely for.

    The minimum scaling minus supers would be the easiest to test for us, but there will still be outliers, I imagine characters like Peacock could still do a lot. It would require meter though obviously so I'm slightly less bothered by the outliers in this case, in fact the differences might be more interesting that way.

    The straight to level 5 change is really interesting, it might be really hard to figure out the implications in 3 days, but I could see it being a very good change too. If the result is forcing ad lib burst baits I would probably like it a lot.

    The meter change would just seem like a supplement to either or both of the above.


    I wouldn't even mind seeing all 3 of these changes, of course it would be a big adjustment and could change balance slightly, but who relies on this so much that it would completely upset it. Would probably not only incentivise earlier resets, but also burst baits and techable knockdown setups, I'm all for more variety of post hit situations being stronger.
     
  31. alexpi

    alexpi Your waifu sucks

    My gut feeling says that the character specific fixes would be "safest" as they'd be quick to test. Max undizzy damage scaling seems really good, but I dunno how quickly we can test everything. Excellabella assist strikes me as the biggest perpetrator of disgusting stuff just in casual testing. I'm not a real bella player, so i suspect there's far grosser things i just don't know about.
     
  32. cloudKing211

    cloudKing211 King of White Puffs

    Location:
    New Jersey, United States
    Steam:
    akiraxion
    PSN:
    cloudKing211
    Valentine
    Unknown
    Double
    Im for sys wide changes 1 and 3, and char specific changes 2,3, and part 1 of change 4

    getting 1 chain on a max undizzy restricts players of resource characters who use assist to gain resources, and restricts the ways to play the game (which im not a fan of).

    The taunted ssj change im not a fan of, but understand why if it is changed/ (I think resource combos are cool!)

    A train being an exception to the burst system being changed would make sense and would lower his metered combo damage. (imo a good thing)

    Max undizzy chains dealing less damage makes sense. (still allows the offender to get damage off a setup but not a full bnbs worth of damage)

    Max undizzy chains that may still end up killing the opponent giving them more meter on incoming/further in the set is further balance to sg's offense, (your opponent loses assist options, they have a bit more meter to "potentially" turn things around.
     
  33. SonicFox5000

    SonicFox5000 The Furriest one here maybe CB/EVO Champ '15

    PSN:
    SonicFox5000
    XBL:
    SonicFox5000
    Filia
    Double
    Fukua
    On top of the combo stage 2--> 5 characters like squigly at max undizzy would suffer the most from trying to do resets as well. I think the scaling afterwards of 240 is fine since your combo should rely BEFORE 240 not after, but not so much the combo stages. As an assist id still like to see excellebella as a mid but thats just my 2 cents. If characters can keep going after max undizzy is going to get nerfed, its something Id like to see as a universal thing (aka beowulf slams, squigly silver chord big band etc etc)
     
  34. ClarenceMage

    ClarenceMage git gud

    Steam:
    ClarenceMage
    PSN:
    ClarenceMage
    Valentine
    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Part 1. Re: 3v3 one-reset kills.
    Part 2. Re: Repeated max undizzy resets/setups.
    Part 3. My suggestion to implement an undizzy change.
    Part 4. I support char specific changes.

    Part 1
    ---
    Regarding 3v3 one-reset kills, I'm not sure setups like this are the most problematic or long term competitively advantageous ways to set up a team.

    Val+Dive of Horus? You get 2 reset kill and Birdman for neutral, but you lose shuriken->axe assist conversion. That arguably is better for Valentine neutral, since annoying pokes with shuriken now convert into corner carry and resets.

    Filia+LNL? That's a great combination, but a player might prefer using Diamond Drop or Excellebella assist for the decisions it forces a player close to them into needing to be aware of while Filia is on point. I personally think command grab assist is a gimmick, but forcing the opponent to be worried/potentially more predictable when you're close is the point of grappler psychology and some players would be more comfortable with that kind of strategy.

    Prioritising an assist choice for purely damage isn't a no-brainer.

    The sequences also seem to require having the assist available to use mid-combo, which is not guaranteed for the following potential reasons:

    -Their initial conversion could be from an assist. They can't use an assist to beef up their (presumably scaled) combo from converting off an assist in neutral.
    -It could have been locked out during a scramble, and you don't get to do your tech.
    -Your character that facilitates this strategy could have been snapped in and murdered. This is a fundamental piece of strategy in all Vs. games that denies team-reliant tech.
    -You could have used the assist to extend pressure after a confirm, or to facilitate a safer confirm. Choosing to not use an assist in pressure is a significant decision.

    If you decide to do a mixup or hitconfirm without assist backing, that is a significantly greater risk than with an assist in the picture to potentially screw up the conversion(like with Big Band's big hurtbox), or to cover the timing they could do a reversal with an assist hitbox and do a high/low after that timing.

    These aren't trivial decisions to make when prioritising damage over options and safety, and affect the success rate of your in-game strategy.

    Part 2.
    ---
    Regarding max undizzy damage and setups, I think that if this was treated with too drastic of a touch it would be a significant damper on the feel of the game.

    I dislike the following propositions:

    -All non-super hits at 240+ undizzy being minimum scaling. I think this change would be a mistake, since outside of a few characters, damage at max undizzy isn't obscene. It would also remove the value difference between throws and low/high mixups, since they would all do minimum damage anyway, making the mixup decisions less weighted in risk/reward and more on randomness.

    -Automatic stage 5 doesn't sound fun, since the setup potential is significantly lower and unfairly benefits the max undizzy reset/setup potential of characters who can end with slide knockdown either meterlessly or for one meter.

    In theory, both of these changes push the value of burst baits higher, but in my opinion what it would do is is reduce the necessity to reversal out of non-burst bait mixups due to their low damage. Considering the strength of burst alpha counter with specific assists vs common setups, this would make the defender have much less to lose from eating repeated max undizzy setups until the opponent has meter, and just attempting to block their way out. This would be gruelling to play, and maybe less fun to watch.

    -Min meter gain for attacker and max meter gain for defender is the sanest universal option in my opinion, but we already know how meter-gain-for-opponent considerations worked in Vanilla/SDE. If the problem of max undizzy damage is so obscene that there is very little reason you shouldn't do it due to how few decisions your opponent has to make before they die, then giving the opponent options to make during the very few opportunities they have won't discourage the gameplan.

    Part 3.
    ---
    I however would like to make a suggestion with totally non-final and arbitrary numbers. Let's say at max undizzy, let's say every 75 undizzy after 240 the opponent has, then initial damage scaling and self/opponent meter gain changes appropriately.

    -Initial damage scaling starts at 85% at 315 undizzy, 70% at 380 undizzy, and so on until minimum starting scaling.
    -Meter scaling is affected in a similar fashion as well.

    This can be graphically represented by changing the green undizzy bar to progressively darker shades of red. This also lets the opponent know "Man, you're constantly eating mixups at max undizzy. You should feel bad about this.", and I already know how much Skullgirls loves to make people feel bad about losing.

    I frequently kill opponents when they have something like 700 undizzy on them, then mix up the second character with incoming setups into max undizzy setups until I can kill them with meter or kill the anchor with meter.

    This does point towards max undizzy setups to be very good, but I think that would be good to highlight this mechanical increase in undizzy with diminishing returns in repeated maximum undizzy setups.

    What this does is:
    -Retains value in an initial max undizzy setup, as well as raises the value of mixup->non-max undizzy mixup->max undizzy mixup.
    -Include an avenue for optimising enders to account for stages of max undizzy thresholds. Combos that end in 235 undizzy->LP LP LK MP MK HK/HP xx special enders would definitely raise it past the next threshold, so if players want better damage scaling for the next mixup, they would have to shorten their enders to optimise.
    -Imposes harsher scaling for when the max undizzy setups continue to get repeated, changing the valuation of max undizzy resets and burst baits over the course of the consistently successful setplay.

    I think this gradual reduction of the efficacy of max undizzy setups would feel the best to play, temporarily retains some strength of doing the initial max undizzy mixup into big damage, while also significantly reducing the efficacy of repeated max undizzy setups.

    ---

    Regarding char specific changes, if it's specific tools that facilitate abnormal damage at max undizzy, then I am for nerfing them.
     
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  35. AlcoholicRobot

    AlcoholicRobot Member

    Steam:
    AlcoholicRobot
    As a player that has set ups for grab resets with Beowulf, where I basically get my entire damage from my combo off of that first grab not being scaled and duo damage, I feel like the whole "grabs don't scale until after the grab" that makes beos grab useful wouldn't matter anymore if all non super hits were max scaled at max undizzy and it'd make most of my set ups completely worthless but what can you do...Definitely not looking forward to it personally but if it's for the health of the game overall guess I'll just have to deal with it. Definitely regret putting so much time into practicing grab reset tech that won't ever be useful before I ever even get to do it in real matches though.
     
  36. JDbbx

    JDbbx Active Member

    Valentine
    Cerebella
    if you make unchained A train burstable you should probably make unchained pummel horse burstable too

    Show Spoiler
    as much as it hurts me physically to suggest this
     
  37. PME

    PME R.I.P. Airdash Cancels

    Location:
    Virginia
    Steam:
    KPB | PME
    PSN:
    PMEmmanuel
    Ms. Fortune
    Fukua
    Robo Fortune
    I am for these changes the most, as I feel like they'd make the most impact to the problem in question. Minus, of course, the A-Train change which should have been equalized with the other hit-grabs.

    I'm with Sonic concerning changing the combo stage to 5 during a full undizzy reset, as that affects specific characters, rather than the game as a whole.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
    PleasureCutWind likes this.
  38. Daemyx

    Daemyx Farofa Master

    Location:
    Brazil - PR
    Steam:
    Daemyx
    Painwheel
    Squigly
    Big Band
    I don't think any of the game-wide or char-specific are unreasonable. I would prefer Excellebella just scaling to max dmg over changing the animation.
    I'm fine with everything else.
     
  39. Jason

    Jason Not JasonD

    Squigly
    Big Band
    Cerebella
    I am, of course, concerned about what a 240 undizzy scaling or burst nerf would do to hurt the lower-damage characters in the cast. It may even be more detrimental to those characters than to the outliers like Band and Beo.

    On the other hand character specific changes risk missing some other unanticipated high damage reset set up so there's a risk that it may not actually fix the problem. Its a rough situation.
     
  40. PleasureCutWind

    PleasureCutWind Nice And Pleasureful

    Location:
    San Bruno, CA
    Steam:
    NAP | PleasureThatCutsWind
    Cerebella
    Eliza
    Big Band
    I'm all for the stage 5 change and character specific changes, the other ones don't seem to directly address the problem imo but that just my opinion.
     

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