Full Undizzy Sequences - Community Poll.

Discussion in 'Gameplay General' started by Mike_Z, Feb 7, 2017.

?

Should anything be done to address the damage available above 240 Undizzy? (Read the post please)

Poll closed Feb 10, 2017.
  1. Yes - and I'm fully aware there may be some consequences I don't like

    71.9%
  2. No - do nothing

    28.1%
  1. HiroProtagonest

    HiroProtagonest Splatoonatic

    Steam:
    Hiro Protagonest
    PSN:
    Hiro Protagonest
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Big Band
    Guilty Gear has powerful block pressure and knockdowns. Smash Bros has strong shields and a lot of jumping. Skullgirls is about combos and resets. These are the ways these games are designed, and that's why there's more than one, so you can choose.

    Also, like I said. Mike isn't doing this because he doesn't like the way the Japanese play. That is NOT the reason. How this affects someone's decision to not use every tool available isn't as important.
     
  2. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Norcal
    Steam:
    remikz_
    PSN:
    RemiKz_
    Peacock
    Filia
    Cerebella
    I have mixed feelings on this.

    I see what the issue is and I see how the change fixes the issue, but it also effects other situations that I'm not particularly fond of. I typically do my resets towards the middle/end of combos and have watched my reset damage plummet because of the change. If you left off a finished character at 240 undizzy, the incoming character has significantly less to worry about now, as any hit on them will be heavily scaled. Once you hit 240 undizzy and your character really isn't in danger of getting killed, you don't have to worry too much about resets or burst baits. It's better to just try to block than attempt to do a reversal and have your undizzy be reset.
     
    tossle likes this.
  3. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Steam:
    Zidiane
    PSN:
    zidiane5
    XBL:
    Zidiane
    Cerebella
    Milton was pretty respectful in the way he offered his opinion on behalf of the jpn community. Mike specifically asked for opinions like that. It's not any of our place to tell someone they're wrong for liking the game as it is, because it's just as valid an opinion as wanting it to change.

    We should really be using this thread strictly to focus on exploring the changes for the... what, day and a half we have left before whatever change/non-change is permanent.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2017
    softie, missingno, jawnsunn and 3 others like this.
  4. PleasureCutWind

    PleasureCutWind Nice And Pleasureful

    Location:
    San Bruno, CA
    Steam:
    NAP | PleasureThatCutsWind
    Cerebella
    Eliza
    Big Band
    My bad, I shouldn't have said that. But I would like to give my opinion on the undizzy change.

    IMO I'm fine with the change, but I also agree that starting from .2 with only two strings to work with is a little much. You can say "just don't fill up all the undizzy", but why wouldn't you if you have the resources to kill a character. Because of this, the full undizzy incoming character guessing wrong on incoming doesn't really matter because you can't stack much damage if you hit them. Every reset from then on would be doing so little damage that I would rather force a gold burst into a mixup every time to get better damage potential (I wonder if people are doing this already). This goes the other way too, if I'm getting mixed up at full undizzy, I'd rather try to attempt block correctly every time than attempt to tech a grab or try to reversal because I'd have so many chances to guess right. I believe this situation will become common on both sides and is likely to change playstyles to be a lot more centered around making sure undizzy doesn't hit or stay at 240. I know you don't need to fill it up, but what happens if you do?

    I feel like changing the scaling to from .2 to .33 or something around there(like Cadenza said) would fix this problem. Then you would have to get more resets than before, as intended, but it would be enough damage to work with. This would also be more reasonable with players who like to keep undizzy full while also encouraging to have a more reset focused approach.

    Maybe my thought process on this is wrong, so please remember that this is just my thought process and you can disagree. We're here to discuss these changes not argue about them.
     
    softie likes this.
  5. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    ?? I feel this change is a tremendous buff to Solos (and by extension, Duos) since they still manage to kill 1 character largely unaffected by it, and then just lose out on an incoming mixup.
    3v1 on the other hand now has to reset every 5 hits because else you WILL hit 240 Undizzy and then they just never die (and every reset risks you getting hit by a mashed super which means you lose a character)

    ***** ***** *****

    What this change does to the general gameflow & when looking from a raw "logical standpoint", I *really like*;
    Undizzy currently doesn't really do its job, and this quite feels like it fixes the most glaring issues.

    What this does to the balance of characters who are less reliant on combos/resets (Peacock, Robo), the differing team sizes (duo & solo buffed as they're less likely to fill Undizzy through "normal" gameplay), and characters who sport high damage supers and are thus less affected (Peacock, Robo, Band, ..), I am much less sure about.
    In particular Peacock strikes me as a problem here, since she is IMO already very, very strong in current Retail & now got "two buffs" (less affected by the change than everyone else since she is more neutral bound than other chars; and doubly less affected because a big part of her damage comes from Argus and by extension Argus-Lenny-Argus and the like, which aren't touched)
    Big Band also still gets 6.7k with Taunt at 235 Ud with just [cLK cMK sHP - jHK - SSJ]..
    .. But I don't think I'm "in" the game enough anymore to really judge how much this affects things, so I'll have to defer judgement of that to other people.

    Good players, please fight some against Peacock and Solos/Duos, to see if you feel they might be too strong now!~

    Well, because it makes the incoming for the next character THAT much easier.

    I *love* that there can now actually be a thought process involved in
    "Do I just kill this character for 1 meter /
    do I super early and DHC to kill it for 2, but have some Ud to work with on the next char /
    do I risk going for a reset, even though I could kill, to preserve both meter and undizzy",
    rather than always going for the kill if possible.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
    HiroProtagonest, softie and Spencer like this.
  6. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    After more testing. I don't like the current UD change

    I like the concept of weakening max UD mixups into hit but the Reward for the mixup is far too weak. One big issue being that UD doesn't drain as fast and most strings build UD meter.
    Yes, resetting early is the quickest retort, but c'mon. You have to get your damage somewhere and not from piddly hits so of course you will reach UD and either be forced to mixup or do some burst bait or a tech burst bait.

    It destroys tech burst baits. Because they don't tech, UD will remain full and because of that they have no issue taking a .2 scaled mixup into combo cause they will simply just live again. Its not a little worse, its way worse.

    Overall?: I'd rather keep retail as it is now if the UD scaling can't be tweaked slightly more (would like to test 50% scaling or 33%). Because while it does address the main issue, it really messes up the reward i feel for hitting someone with a iad j.lk from filia or a f.lp from parasoul etc. etc.
     
  7. alexpi

    alexpi Your waifu sucks

    In an odd way, these changes remind me of Philippine rules Marvel 2. They change the max health on the machines so that stuff like infinites play a much smaller role.
     
    softie likes this.
  8. missingno

    missingno Bird/Normal

    Location:
    PA
    Steam:
    /id/MegaMissingno
    Valentine
    Robo Fortune
    Parasoul
    Starting your first chain at .2 does seem pretty harsh. I'd like to try just making it .33 or something.
     
  9. Mars

    Mars Young Hero

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Steam:
    Zen | Mars
    Big Band
    Beowulf
    I'm fine with all the changes here except the Beo change.


    I don't want a buggy game.

    Also Solo's aren't training wheels, I come from SF, so I use my experience playing a single character to it's best ability to be greatly awarded with damage. Lies @cloudKing211
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
  10. Spencer

    Spencer Painwheel

    Location:
    Wyoming
    Steam:
    qspec
    Painwheel
    Squigly
    If combos aren't already scaled, there are plenty of low or no UD reset opportunities. Anecdote: two nights ago I fought a Squigly that did huge amounts of damage to me and my UD didn't move an inch. A pretty big chunk of combo damage comes from Stage 1 and Stage 2 which have 0 affect on UD.

    I promise, you won't want to sit there and just eat that.

    Also, no bursting means every character gets an easy HDK via sweep... and that's potentially quite spooky.

    I haven't been able to try out the changes yet, and so I am not saying it is the right answer... but from a person getting back into the game, I can say that there was a period in which tiny combos into resets (in order to keep UD low) was the norm and characters died plenty fast.
     
    softie likes this.
  11. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Steam:
    Zidiane
    PSN:
    zidiane5
    XBL:
    Zidiane
    Cerebella
    New changes are up (didn't see them mentioned here):
    http://steamcommunity.com/games/208610/announcements/detail/501425959365367528

    There's an Excellebella change, which seems like it fixes the problem. Seems fair to me.

    There's a UD drain time change, making it take 12f to drain above 240. Seems like that'll make it harder to do slow resets to let the UD drain, especially if the UD is high.
     
  12. cloudKing211

    cloudKing211 King of White Puffs

    Location:
    New Jersey, United States
    Steam:
    akiraxion
    PSN:
    cloudKing211
    Valentine
    Unknown
    Double
    I said they weren't dude, don't worry.
     
  13. Shuffleupagus

    Shuffleupagus Member

    Location:
    Western Australia
    Steam:
    shuffleupagus
    PSN:
    Calm_Index
    Ms. Fortune
    Double
    Big Band
    I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents and say I am not feeling for the UD experiment, however, I am fine with the character nerfs. The best way I can sum up the UD experiment after labbing it is "let them play". I can appreciate what the UD experiment does for the game and possible future benefits associated with it, however, it's kinda rubbing rough on me.
     
    softie likes this.
  14. missingno

    missingno Bird/Normal

    Location:
    PA
    Steam:
    /id/MegaMissingno
    Valentine
    Robo Fortune
    Parasoul
    Not liking this 12f change. Feels like I have to be really careful not to let them hit 240 at all, or else they're stuck there now.

    I think getting an unscaled stage 2 and a scaled stage 3 was enough of a nerf, having every chain scaled from then on if they ever hit 240 feels like overkill.
     
  15. ClarenceMage

    ClarenceMage git gud

    Steam:
    ClarenceMage
    PSN:
    ClarenceMage
    Valentine
    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Changes that I would make in my gameplan with these undizzy changes:

    -Use more damaging early-ish resets(intended gameplan change from this change)
    -Actually bother to explore left/right tech chase mixup/setup routes(intended gameplan change from this change)
    -Actually bother to optimise my combos for damage(which means that I spend less time learning resets/mixups)
    -Use an incredibly boring reset gameplan at max undizzy since that seems the most optimal to me(Are people actually OK with this?)
    -Switch to pea/robo/band to minimise the effect that this undizzy change would have on that team's viable gameplan directions(Please consider this point seriously)

    I feel that if I were to play with this change, then in the inevitable case that I reach max undizzy, I would have to optimise my gameplan thus:

    -Change my mixups to strictly repeated air throw/burst bait mixups at max undizzy, instead of doing high/low/left/rights with air throw/brust bait mixed in there as well. I am 100% willing to repeat the same air throw reset 10 times in a row. How willing is my opponent to throw tech when the risk of getting burst baited is a full counterhit combo, and the risk of eating an air throw is maximum scaled air throw into another reset? This would be a very silly looking, and potentially tedious exchange in an obscenely differently weighted mindgame situation. Perhaps I could do some cheeky high/lows, but only if they then immediately led into an air throw/burst bait mixup.

    My point here is that the air throw/burst bait mixup, which imo was king of the mixups before I started optimising max undizzy routes and considering it strong if not preferable to go for repeated high/lows, now has regressed to a previous evaluation where air throw/burst bait has the best reward spread.

    -Intentially disengage to let their undizzy empty, ie "actually letting them play", which greatly disfavors non-zoning characters. This is why I am strongly considering switching to pea/robo/band, since it was already a viable line of play to just get a full combo off of your first touch, and go back to zoning/neutral. This is a big discrepency in the kind of persistent reward that a character like Filia could get once they make the correct decision in neutral, and make repeatedly good decisions in mixups.

    ---

    I already thought that Pea/Robo/Band was arguably the #1 front stacked team in the game in reset potential, damage, and neutral dominance. If this undizzy change sticks, then there would be significantly less doubt in my mind that will be the case, since rushdown/mixup based teams getting significantly less reward vs other teams but most jarringly obvious vs this team.

    If this undizzy change sticks, then I don't see much reason to not commit to it as my main team since doing repeated L Extend->Lv2 M Item left/right is still really good for the little undizzy it costs post the damage nerf to the point I was doing it early when I had a low amount of undizzy anyway, and the damage nerf wasn't even that bad. The line of play of get a hit->do full combo->end in argus for fullscreen positioning was already a viable line of play, and now in this context it's significantly more valuable line of play when you see other characters post-full-combo lines of play.

    After a kill and on incoming, or after specific setups that aren't just argus ender, the opponent still doesn't meaningfully "get to play" vs good peacock lockdown/"you can breathe for a little bit but if you try push your advantage too much you get fuckin slapped in the face with a projectile" strings, and their undizzy will empty over time in this situation anyway, so you're still in the pre-undizzy change state of consistent advantage post-hit. Where non-lockdown zoning gameplans are concerned, reward for winning neutral and being consistently successful with mixups has been taken away.

    I don't think this would be a good direction for the game to go in from a mechanical variety standpoint, it would reduce the number of long-term competitively viable team compositions on a reward basis. Reward for successful offense is a great method of balance in my opinion, and makes uphill battles where neutral is fucked for you actually bearable.

    ---

    Consider this hypothetical situation:
    3v3, you're down to solo band, you're up against full health pea/robo/band, you avoid eating the incoming mixup, you make a series of successive difficult reads, and you manage to kill peacock in a small handful of highly optimised routes... and now you're up against a max undizzy robo/band where every successful mixup you do is a pittance of damage. Do you continue to do repeated high/low mixups with low reward? Do you resort to repeated air throw/burst bait to remove their ability to call beat extend vs high low and get punished if they block correctly*? Do you intentionally disengage to a bad neutral matchup to let the undizzy cool off, then work uphill again to get the privelege of running setplay with meaningful damage again?

    If people think this is a good change for the game, then by all means keep this change. I'll adapt accordingly.

    *I understand this is what already happens mechanically in retail, but the biggest difference is the number of times you have to risk this happening to you with the undizzy change.

    PS. Gold burst infinite strings where you threaten time-out win if they don't burst if the damage is too low to kill and a char death if it's enough to kill, and they must push a button to empty their undizzy
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
  16. Dhoppler

    Dhoppler Forsaken by grains. Hated by the food industry.

    Location:
    KCK
    Steam:
    dhoppler
    PSN:
    dhoppler
    XBL:
    stormin fiasco
    Peacock
    Ms. Fortune
    Big Band
    "Game-wide things I am open to doing because they directly affect only the problem area:
    - [revised] All non-super hits at 240+ Undizzy are automatically scaled to minimum damage. If you want to reset into meter use, I have no problem with that doing real damage. This also basically doesn't affect existing combos, since by the time you get to 240 Undizzy you're already at minimum scaling so the new rule would change nothing.

    - [revised] Minimum meter gain for the attacker and maximum meter gain for the victim when the victim is above 240 Undizzy."


    These seem like the best course of action alongside A Train and Pummel Horse becoming burstable if not chained.

    Is there a way to make Canis Major burstable from hit grabs and not his actual command grab, tho?
     
  17. PleasureCutWind

    PleasureCutWind Nice And Pleasureful

    Location:
    San Bruno, CA
    Steam:
    NAP | PleasureThatCutsWind
    Cerebella
    Eliza
    Big Band
    Thank you for explaining this, this is what I was referring to earlier. I also feel that the risk/reward at max undizzy can be worse than giving up your pressure for the sake of being able to do damage. To avoid this you would be best off doing a bust/grab approach which will be a very linear rock/paper/scissors because you have one or two strings to expect the reset/burst. This is especially because if you do get the burst, you get so much more of a reward by forcing a reaction to grabs. I'm also in also not against this, I just want to call attention to it as a possibility for how this could change gameplay. Like I said before, this is just what I think. If I'm wrong that's fine.
     
    softie likes this.
  18. HiroProtagonest

    HiroProtagonest Splatoonatic

    Steam:
    Hiro Protagonest
    PSN:
    Hiro Protagonest
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Big Band
    That was a huge wall of text and I didn't read it fully, but the point about Peacock that @IsaVulpes also brought up sounds pretty valid. I'm glad it's not my job to decide these changes, Mike has my sympathy!
     
  19. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    Please refer and look at my posts correctly. the bolded i will actually explain why i don't agree with you.

    The 1st thing in bold is good for characters that can do grounded normals. Once someone launches, it builds UD Period. From your experience it may be cool and all.
    But it doesn't change that the fact this benefits more characters with the ability to do ground strings instead of L M, Launcher into building UD air chain.
    now for this bit

    No, This has never been the case at all. You can tech sweeps. Try it out in training mode unless you meant something else. Nothing spooky if you can tech, the actual only real spooky part and isn't really spooky, is this.

    If the opponent knows that he won't die to a shitty scaled combo. Don't tech. you're full of undizzy, you're not gonna die. if you tech then you lose some UD then the defender messed up. In the long run it will just mucks up the idea of offense rewards to defense reward.
     
    softie likes this.
  20. Swiftfox-Dash

    Swiftfox-Dash The one... the only

    Location:
    Texas
    PSN:
    TJgamer22
    Peacock
    Cerebella
    A little late on this but here's a few of my thoughts on these new changes:
    The excellebella assist while taunting thing is an interesting way around the taunt combos and such, but it's a shame I can't taunt as someone like Peacock before Argusing them or do Squigly's level 5(not that I ever really got those chances) not complaining it's just something I'll miss if it stays lol.

    Peacock loses a hair more damage on her standard combos since the level 3 item at the end gets reduced even further as it's scaled to .2 instead but what I really dislike is after a full combo or on an incoming character etc, all my zoning clean hits do minimum damage. Yes Peacock has an easier time than most in willing to give her opponents space after reaching max undizzy but there's something odd about letting my foe recover standing from argus or whatnot and all my projectiles doing more on chip than on actual hit. (Getting clobbered by level 3 overhead after an argus into restand now only does 420, where as blocking it would do 500. Bang doing 70 on hit instead of 133 chip etc)

    Also after messing around with combos and such, I feel I'm more of a fan of the stage 5 penalty than the full damage scaling, both feels a bit much to me atm? I'll try playing with it some more and getting a better feel.

    Oh and this max undizzy damage penalty affecting throws just feels so weird, even moreso with things like grabbag.
     
    softie likes this.
  21. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Steam:
    Zidiane
    PSN:
    zidiane5
    XBL:
    Zidiane
    Cerebella
    What if instead of damage scaling at max undizzy we reduced the 3v3 damage ratio? It would make trios do less damage to each other (the thing we want to fix) and effect no other part of the game.

    Edit: I know it says in the OP that the base health changing is off the table, but changing health would effect every ratio. Trio's have 115% health and 130% dmg iirc, but if they did say 100% dmg they would be able to TOD eachother the same as TODing 3v2 (duos have 115% health). Maybe 100% health too, to make it slightly easier to kill 3v3 than 3v2. It just seems like the original reason of boosting trio stats (which iirc was because they took too long to kill each other and time-outs galore) isn't really an issue so much anymore.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
  22. Swiftfox-Dash

    Swiftfox-Dash The one... the only

    Location:
    Texas
    PSN:
    TJgamer22
    Peacock
    Cerebella
    I like what you're trying to get at but I'm afraid I might have to disagree just a bit. Sure these high damage resets are speeding up some games, but ever since I started messing with Trio I've had quite a few timeouts or last second victories, something I almost never experienced with my duo team. If we changed the damage like that I see myself running into time outs in 3 v 3 quite frequently against most players.
     
  23. Ninjapls

    Ninjapls I got a BALHD head.

    Location:
    Louisiana
    Steam:
    Ninjapls
    PSN:
    ninjagoon
    Valentine
    Eliza
    Double
    Dont forget the second they return to neutral, UD gonna start going down. Plus the opponent not teching is leaving them open to whatever setup you have that your crazy mind can come up with.
     
  24. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double


    Don't forget what I am trying to say.
    which is:

     
  25. Jason

    Jason Not JasonD

    Squigly
    Big Band
    Cerebella
    I really don't think we have enough time to fully test how sweeping changes like the Undizzy damage scaling will impact the game.

    I think we should stick with just the individual character nerfs. Anything else risks a lot of unintended consequences.
     
  26. Spencer

    Spencer Painwheel

    Location:
    Wyoming
    Steam:
    qspec
    Painwheel
    Squigly
    Got some rounds in tonight, and the system wide changes affect solo almost 0%.

    For the most part, the game feels same-ish to me as a solo player both while hitting and getting hit.

    So I think I'm going to bow out and let teams duke it out.
     
  27. dekillsage

    dekillsage Gloomy EVO Champ 2014

    Beowulf
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    NEW - When Undizzy is at 240+, the bar waits for 12f after recovery from hitstun/blockstun before starting to decrease, so that resets must give the defender a larger window before no longer being penalized. Below 240, the bar still decreases instantly.

    NEW
    - When Undizzy is at 240+, the attacker always gets the minimum damage-scaled metergain and the victim always gets the maximum.

    I don't like either of these changes.

    1st change)
    Undizzy waiting 12f after recovery removes the ability to do stagger pressure in order to decrease undizzy which I personally think sucks. Often times I end up putting my opponent well beyond 240 undizzy, but I can give them some space and poke at my opponent until undizzy goes down. If I land a hit before undizzy goes below 240 I get no damage, and if I successfully got away with pressuring my opponent without getting hit by a reversal I believe I should get my one string of unscaled damage. Adding this to the game will definitely make it so that if you ever decide to kill an opponent at the cost at 240+ undizzy, the opponent never has to care about getting hit or getting pressured.

    2nd change)
    Resetting an opponent at 240+ undizzy does no damage, but I thought it was good that I could choose to go for them and cash out on meter in order to kill or deal solid damage. Building that meter slower, while the opponent builds more during opportunities for the opponent to reverse the situation or block the mix up is bad.

    Character stuff

    -Non-super versions of Canis Major Press are now IPS tracked, and can grant IPS and Undizzy bursts if the grab-mode starting attack wasn't chained into.

    I thought I would get used to this change, but I hate it. I can't get over not being able to get a knockdown from cr.mk after doing a full route. I know its for the sake of consistency, but it feels like a big part of his game is gone. I can't do a string into chair toss into st.hp knock down, because I'll go over undizzy and they'll burst. I can't do H chair toss to j.hp -> cool stuff -> knock down while using up my built resources, because they'll burst out. I believe that the scaling at 240 undizzy balances the ability to be able to do this.

    NEW - Excellebella assist only now causes sweep knockdown (invincible, techable) if you taunt during it with any character. This is really harsh, yes, but I’d like to see how harsh, because taunted SSJ is a pretty big issue with respect to max Undizzy. This lets you still get a free taunt, but not a combo or setup afterward.

    With this change Big Band can doooo... Full combo -> last string being launch + excellebella -> taunt. Can be any combo. The one I do leaves them at 200 undizzy after excellebella is done. Combo them close enough to the corner where if they tech backwards they're back is to the wall, and if they tech forward you do a mix up or read a reversal. Since they tech you also remove undizzy so you now have more to work with. If they don't tech then well... you're taking a mix up on your wake up then.

    Beowulf can do the same thing, but he can build hype by holding st.lp as well so he can always opt to do that instead.
     
  28. Swiftfox-Dash

    Swiftfox-Dash The one... the only

    Location:
    Texas
    PSN:
    TJgamer22
    Peacock
    Cerebella
    Just a thought but since I see that BB can reset just about anywhere in his combo, still get taunt and a mixup after into a combo that kills 3 v 2, perhaps he could use some damage adjustments?

    And yeah, really not a fan of zoning being so heavily scaled both damage and meter wise after killing a character off or such. Seems like when the foe has max undizzy they are better off taking the hits instead of blocking, with the exception of letting me do Argus.
     
  29. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    Do you disagree on Peacock being heavily buffed by this change
     
    4th likes this.
  30. HiroProtagonest

    HiroProtagonest Splatoonatic

    Steam:
    Hiro Protagonest
    PSN:
    Hiro Protagonest
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Big Band
    In the sense of "not nerfed as much as everyone else."
     
  31. Pickles

    Pickles VT scene?

    Location:
    Vermont
    Steam:
    Pickles (/id/shamanlord)
    PSN:
    PS_Shamanlord (but I rarely use this for SG)
    Filia
    Double
    Unknown
    after playing with the changes a bit, I am especially against the "When Undizzy is at 240+, the bar waits for 12f after recovery from hitstun/blockstun before starting to decrease" change. Makes it way too difficult to pressure the opponent at all if you hit max undizzy, and if you reset after hitting max undizzy you can't delay the setup a bit to get an unscaled chain either. (to be honest it kind of reminds me of scrubquotes-esque "when i knock my opponent down i back off and give them a chance to play", not necessarily to that extreme but that's kind of what you have to do now)

    Playing on the first day patch, I thought I would be in favor of these changes since it didn't affect my playstyle much but the more i look at things the more I'm starting to be against any change to undizzy. People are already finding ways to do about the same amount of damage as before with certain chars, and I am seeing the changes very heavily favoring chars who have certain capabilities (e.g. characters who can reset quickly after a single ground chain, characters with gold burst infinites, characters who can still kill 3v2 in 1 reset anyway thanks big band) which I think will be worse for game health in the end. I think some of the char-specific changes such as beo being able to chain grabs for years at max undizzy and BB being able to do full combo into a-train are worth keeping but I am becoming more opposed to system-wide undizzy changes (especially with so little time to test).
     
  32. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Steam:
    Zidiane
    PSN:
    zidiane5
    XBL:
    Zidiane
    Cerebella
    Got a chance to check out some of the solo damage, for anyone who cares where Solos are standing.

    Bella can still kill midscreen off one reset 1v2 after c.lk start, but I can only find two routes that do so (both are crossup, can't find any kill off of grab/low). Eliza can kill 1v2 off one reset with 1 bar start pretty easily still, same conditions. Big Band can one-reset-kill easier than either of them midscreen. Don't know about anyone else, but I figure if they could kill in one reset before they probably still can.

    They do have to reset sooner than they might've otherwise, which does mean successful defense leaves the defender with more health than pre-beta.
     
  33. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

    Location:
    Canada (East)
    Steam:
    Sydoh
    PSN:
    worldjem7
    Ms. Fortune
    I play Fukua/Fortune and so far the changes haven't really affected me, but I also don't always go for super optimal stuff and sometimes reset early instead of after full undizzy.

    I am for having these changes because I don't think I'd want to have the endgame be about getting 2/3-touch death.
     
  34. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    After playing sydoh. I noticed that there was no reason to burst or anything.

    Keep the concept but make the scaling to. 33 or. 5

    Right now it feels too low
     
  35. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Steam:
    Zidiane
    PSN:
    zidiane5
    XBL:
    Zidiane
    Cerebella
    softie likes this.
  36. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    @Milton_JP
    I am curious what JP players think of today's changes, and of the character-specific changes apart from the Undizzy things.

    It's not burstable from his command grab if you chain into it from s.HK, and otherwise you should not be in a state where they can burst it. Can you give me an example of incorrect behavior?

    Note that he CAN do that even before just by not hitting them again. It's just that now he CAN'T also choose to combo you into the super or get a hard knockdown off it. So you tried a new thing that's always been possible, because you were forced to, and you're arguing that it's better than the thing you were doing before...I am unable to see that as a downside, since it's possible whether or not the Excella change stays. :^)
    There is no scenario in which after a combo "you take a mixup and have a chance to defend" is worse than "you take much more guaranteed damage" from a design perspective. Mixups are not guaranteed in games without humanly-unblockable setups.

    About Beo, that's just because you're used to getting three chains. Aww. :^P

    About the 12f wait, I changed it to 10f but I'm also willing to change it to "only after hitstun" - would that work better?
     
  37. missingno

    missingno Bird/Normal

    Location:
    PA
    Steam:
    /id/MegaMissingno
    Valentine
    Robo Fortune
    Parasoul
    Supers are now scaled too, including DHCs? So even without resetting if I do a full combo into DHC does that negate how DHCs normally unscale?
     
  38. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    Yep, 55% instead of 70% if you're above 240.
     
  39. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Steam:
    Zidiane
    PSN:
    zidiane5
    XBL:
    Zidiane
    Cerebella
    I like the idea of this new DHC scaling.
     
    Mars and Spencer like this.
  40. missingno

    missingno Bird/Normal

    Location:
    PA
    Steam:
    /id/MegaMissingno
    Valentine
    Robo Fortune
    Parasoul
    Just seems to me like so much is changing with not nearly enough time to playtest it all. I don't know which characters are hit the hardest or how players will have to adjust. But right now it leaves a sour taste in my mouth, and one day isn't enough to see if I'll warm up to it.

    Maybe for SG2, but right now the game is in a good place and I'd rather not completely upend things at the last minute like this.
     
    Lawnba likes this.

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