Discussion in 'Gameplay General' started by Mike_Z, Feb 7, 2017.
peacock doing less DHCless damage sounds nice
I know that I have no credibility. But I'll just throw in my thoughts considering how big of a change this is.
The forced scaling seems way too harsh and it gives the opponent no reason to burst. I'm thinking that the forced stage 5 at 240+ is enough for game-wide changes.
Sorry that I didn't say anything sooner.
I still personally feel really uncomfortable going forward with these changes. I feel like they drastically change too much for how very little time I (we) have to really give it a good test.
I'm still not a fan on how "safe" incoming characters are to much threat if their previous character ended off on 240+ undizzy. I'm not a fan on how undizzy takes longer to start to tick down at 240+. Feels like the game is arbitrarily forcing me to give up my advantage on my opponent. I'm not landing 100% kill combos, I'm doing multiple hitconfirms, but I feel like the game is forcing me to back off and give up my advantage.
I'm ok with most of the character specific changes except for beowulf's throws triggering burst. I feel like he should at least keep that as a unique aspect because they feel like they should be finishers.
The forced Stage 5 adversely affects some characters more than others, and is worse than just doing character-specific changes.
Mike just changed the 240 scaling again today if you based your comment off of yesterday's or the version in the OP. Otherwise I have no idea.
Yeah I wasn't too sure if it would effect some characters more than others. If we can find balance with the scaling in time I'm down with the change.
Really like the changes overall and the last one is even better.
More fair in general because different characters get different damage out of supers.
Also getting at max undizzy doesn't feel like a total dead end like it did with 0.2x scaling.
While this is true, there is still the "issue" of different characters having differently hitting supers.
While Big Band loses 1600 damage on a raw SSJ at 240 vs 235 Undizzy (3800 -> 2200),
Peacock only loses 700 on a raw Argus (3200 -> 2500) - because that super is all tiny hits which will "always" be max scaled anyway.
While this is true, I have a feeling that the game HAS to "feel like a total dead end" for such a change to actually accomplish something.
There was always erring on the side of safety in IPS strictness and the Undizzy number, and we are where we are (with Undizzy kinda doing not very much)
- I'm afraid if the scaling gets softened to the extend of still feeling good *now*, by this time next month people will have noticed that it doesn't do anything.
If it feels incredibly punishing rn, then maybe further down the line optimizations are found that make it feel good again, without turning into "What's Undizzy?"
.. Of course, the community has to want this.
Even if a harsh scaling (or 150 Ud, or whatever) made the game "objectively better", that's not very useful when all the "short combo guys" left the game 2 years ago,
and all the people who enjoy 1 touch kills now quit; ultimately a multiplayer game most of all needs players, so if this upsets the players it's .. ugh
A middle ground could be the way to go about it, I like supers being scaled though.
As extreme as people are saying these changes are, I think I like all of them pretty much universally. Maybe 12f cooldown on undizzy should be shortened but not removed. Love the dhc scaling
I think the particular snap out to both characters is a bit much, however this may prove a buff to snapping in general.
hopefully this will help people SNAP more often.
keep that change.
Is it just me or does this change really impact optimized max undizzy combos more than it does the actual optimized real problem combos that are the reason for this change? Most combos seem to lose ~2k damage and that's fine for the higher damage stuff because you're still doing around 4K but when you have some unoptimal starter like, for example, squigly cr.HP you're losing *half* of the damage.
I haven't played any matches, just messed around in training mode but I can't say I like the change at all. I was against characters retaining undizzy after the end of a combo to begin with back when that was first implemented but it was ok because you can still squeeze out a decent chunk of damage at max undizzy. This is going too far.
This DHC scaling thing is interesting and the scaling adjust on max undizzy is a bit better feeling to me, at least my projectiles do a bit more on hit than on chip now, the meter thing is still kind of iffy to me but man I think the thing that I would take the longest on getting used to is throws being affected. I mean, I know it's Bella and having her command grabs be exceptions would be insane but still... poor grab bag. At least it still builds a lot of meter even at max undizzy.
On a less serious note, with the new super scaling, Peacock going into level 3 DHC is slightly better than it was before, only doing about 50 less damage than lenny- argus- item drop instead of about 200 less damage. Though goodfellas at max undizzy builds the foe about half a bar so..... still may not opt for it. = (
NEW - j.HP scales damage to 75%, to give her slightly less reward for how much blockstun and priority it has.
Does this affect cHP jHP corner burst bait counter hit punishes?
I missed that Bella j.hp change. Is that directly related to the goal of removing these one-reset things? It's not a huge deal but I didn't know we were getting any changes that weren't really directly related to the issue at hand.
There was no noticeable opinion about the character-specific changes as far as I see.
Some players are complaining, but they seem to be not accurately grasping the point what you want to change. or they just feel bad about changes at THIS moment.
This is my own point of view, JPSGC's public opinion is "we need no more changes".
But after reading this thread, I'm starting to think that JPSGC's opinion becomes out of date.
This seems to be like excuse. We can't understand perfectlly what's going on in USA, and why change at now. It's because simply we can't understand English and because we are playing SG at different environment: no major tournament, lesser number of players, and different experience of games we have played. So, we tend to refuse a new change since we don't want to be disturbed our current environment.
If I see things completely from the American perspective, Japan's opinion may seem noisy. However, it seems as if I talk about a different ethnic group living in a detached island, (Wait,,, is this right?), We were enjoying our game in our environment. So please tolerate us speaking things from that point of view. It may be a bit self-sacred opinion, but I hope that this game will be better.
Thank you for caring about Japan @Mike_Z
And thank you for reading my English.
Hmm, maybe a bit different.
But I can not tell it with my English ability.
I guess you missed the bit where optimized max undizzy combos are the problem? :^P
Well, don't do that. See how often it actually COMES UP in matches, especially if you try to avoid having it come up.
The entire point is for people not to like what it does when it comes up, because when it comes up in retail it's NOT EFFECTIVE.
Yes, it sucks to hit someone in that situation. See how often it really happens TO YOU.
Yes it is! We are not getting any changes that aren't to specifically affect situations at max undizzy.
She is one of the characters that gets a lot out of SMACK SMACK SMACK SMACK in stage 2, so reducing the use of a SMACK that's overhead and plus a huge amount on block is the point. Considering the other options are things like making it not overhead or hugely reducing the blockstun, both of which have much bigger impacts on how she'd be played rather than just how much damage it does...this was the choice for me, no-brainer. She has Elbow for unscaled overhead, command grabs that beat down back AND leave you in stage 2, so now this move that also does both of those things is slightly less useful.
...wait a sec, j.HP has more blockstun than it has hitstun. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. Maybe I'll be fixing that anyway, that's an actual bug. >.< (Well, you asked... <3 )
I very much care about JPSGC. As long as a group name has "SGC" in it, I care about what they think! :^)
I know that "Japan finishes combos". (It's one of the reasons the US was better at MvC2, haha.) So I'd like to explain WHY the changes are happening, to see if JP players agree or not...
I don't care about 3v3 1-reset dead from zero Undizzy. I DO care about this
because that's just "practice in training mode and make the enemy guess". That's not FUN, you don't have to think, you don't have to do different stuff, and it takes the same number of resets (1) as when Undizzy is 0. It has nothing to do with difficult combos OR cool resets, it doesn't make the US happy or JP happy. As a game developer, I can guarantee you that if the game became that with every team, it would not be fun. And if that tactic is good, it WILL become dominant. So I must see if there is something I can do to prevent that from ever happening. And if that requires changing things somewhat now, I must try to do that.
What I am trying (very hard!) to do with these changes is: Make setplay situations like that less useful, but NOT change full combos, or change full combos as LITTLE as I can. I don't want to "disturb the current environment" at all, 100%. If I could leave the game alone and that problem was not in the future, I would not touch anything. I am doing the smallest amount that solves the problem.
The goal is that doing a full combo with 1 character should be the same as always...but I have to change the reward from the next hit directly after that. If the enemy didn't get to play for 0-240 Undizzy, then I have to soften the damage and give them a better chance after that. I want to still reward combo->continue attacking as much as I can, while still giving characters more chances to live in situations like that video.
I want P1 to at least consider letting undizzy drain, or not building it up, because both of those things let P2 actually play the game, which is ultimately more fun for both players. P1 doesn't want to let P2 play, that's the goal of every game. So I have to force "let P2 play" to be a strong choice because of smaller reward, strong enough that P1 will choose it sometimes.
I hope that makes sense.
The character-specific changes are all to reduce the damage of repeatable setups at 240 undizzy: Stage 2 -> stage 3 -> Beat Extend -> A-Train hard knockdown is much more damage than stage 2 Beat Extend -> stage 3 A-Train. Stage 2 -> Stage 3 -> Kanchou -> Pummel Horse -> high/low/throw is much more damage than Stage 2 -> Stage 3 Pummel Horse. It also reduces the number of exceptions characters have to rules of bursting.
Not sure if this is on purpose or not, but when you hit Fortune's head with select normals/specials (haven't tested supers), Fortune takes an extra point of damage from somewhere. This is especially noticeable when hitting both Fortune and her head so that the attack data can visually change in terms of the damage dealt.
Hit both Fortune and her head with Parasoul's c.MK for example. She should be taking 910 damage, but an extra point gets "added"(?) making it 911. The things I noticed that Parasoul has that cause this are her c.MK, both her s.HPs, c.HK, the explosion from a tear, and jd.MK. I especially find it weird that Parasoul's c.MK causes this, but not Double's (though Double's s.LK does).
Not sure if this is cause for concern or not, but I'd thought I'd point it out just incase.
This is way too late of me to give a suggestion but how about only forcing scaled damage if you start a new combo at 240+ UD? And also in my untested and therefore negligible opinion I don't like the undizzy wait time from after hitstun.
Current max undizzy scaling could stand to be a bit more stringent, I think.
It's not, it's only the training data, the actual value of her health is correct.
The reason is that the head subtracts fractional damage from her lifebar, but your health is stored as integers.
Fortune updates -> health is 1000.
Head updates -> got hit -> subtract 9.2 health from Fortune -> intermediate health is 990.8, properly displayed and calculated as 990, but stored intermediately as 990.8.
The training data display uses rounding, so it displays 991.
Next frame, Fortune updates and truncates it in her update to 990.
Training data stored previous health is now > current health (990.8 > 990) so it shows a damage of 1, and stores the proper value of 990.0.
If you do a full combo ending in a super that leaves them at 235, vs doing a full combo that leaves them at 240, the former would allow any reset to do full damage for the full 2 chains into more supers, whereas the latter would not. Since this result can vary based on other hits landed prior to the combo, it makes more sense to take the current state of the match into account because the idea is to give them a chance after taking lots of damage, whether that "lots of damage" happens in one combo or two.
Nailed it! :^P
This is just devil's advocate, but you could also approach it from the risk side rather than the reward side. For example when at max undizzy, give the defender armor.
Sorry, I guess an poorly informed opinion is not useful. I tried for 2 hours to find matches last night and came up empty. Everyone is just playing retail.
Mm. I hadn't seen any one-reset combos using that route pop up, but that makes sense.
Is j.hp only doing scalling on the first hit or every part in the combo? Because if the point is reducing it's strength as a reset starter, wouldn't it make sense to just apply the scalling as a starter?
I just thought my idea would still allow one reset kill from 0 undizzy but stop it when it's full, but I trust you guys more than myself so I'll go back to silently stalking this thread... *Disappears into the shadows*
The way scaling works is that when it hits, if the scaling is above xx%, the next hit of the combo goes down to that percent. So, starting the combo with j.hp brings the next hit down to at least 75%, as does hitting it with your second or 3rd hit, but after that point it doesn't have any effect. Moves like Pummel Horse and Excellebella work like this.
This will reduce your damage if you A) use j.hp overhead starter, B) confirm off of j.hp as an air-to-air in the corner, or C) have HCH corner combos that look like c.hp, j.hp, etc. In combos your damage should be unaffected if j.hp is at least your 4th hit (scales to 75% instead of like 76%), virtually all other uses should remain unaffected.
Whatever we do. Do not give defender armor.
That's exactly the point.
this is just nitpicking but 4th hit is 87.5%, you would want j.hp to be the 5th hit, everything else you said is a good point though
I like the direction the changes take the game in.
It's a slight damage nerf, being stated to be explicitly a nerf to that option. c.hp, j.hp isn't the only option for conrer-specific HCH routes. There's other stuff you could do that does enough damage to warrant a HCH.
Edit: you have more options especially with assists in the mix (c.hp, napalm pillar, j.hk for example; saves OTG if you want it).
The 4th hit is 87.5% and landing j.hp on the 4th hit scales the next hit to 75% which is normally 76.6%. The hit of j.hp isn't itself scaled, it scales the next hit.
Early j.hp not being optimal is exactly why it makes no sense to nerf damage on combos that use it, and it's stated to be a nerf to the reward for it in neutral and pressure, nerfing it on the first hit would just be a better option.
So I played with the most current update and I can say that I didn't notice a thing with my team. I guess that's not very helpful, but my team (Eliza/H.A-Train) does a lot of damage before undizzy becomes a factor and i usually reset right after it does. When undizzy occasionally got full, I was still able to get enough damage for me to work with and I honestly forgot I was playing beta. @Mike_Z as an Eliza player I have no problem with the current patch, I like it.
Were you playing as a duo against a trio?
I've played 2v2 and 2v3 because I don't play trio so take that as you will.
Do the character specific changes not prevent this from happening? Without the undizzy scaling changes being applied, there should be about 2000 total damage shaved off from these 2 sequences.
Sorry I'm extra late. You can combo into command grab off of stagger assists like Bella st.mp and Peacock lp bang!. It's exceedingly rare and might not be worth the time to differentiate the 2 states. It was an off the cuff question anyways.
2 grabs yes, 1 grab -> overhead/low no.
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