Game Mechanics thread

Discussion in 'Gameplay General' started by Jason, Apr 14, 2014.

  1. Jason

    Jason Not JasonD

    Squigly
    Big Band
    Cerebella
    This thread is meant to be a discussion of all the little game mechanics that often go overlooked or aren't specifically spelled out in the tutorial and what not

    Mike Z often drops little nuggets of knowledge on how the game mechanics function, so I thought it would be nice put a bunch of this stuff here and also some other things that I've managed to find myself or that other people have mentioned

    I know a lot of this is already on the Skullgirls Wiki but I think its useful to have a thread here so people can discuss it and add to the knowledge base of the game

    This is all from my own memory so if you see anything incorrect please say so

    Pre-jump frames and interactions with blocking

    -
    All characters have 4 frames of jump-startup. As an exception, Cerebella's Superjump has 6 frames of startup.
    - Prejump frames are throw invincible
    - Prejump frames can be canceled into special and super moves and maybe other things? (needs checking)
    - Prejump frames can (and will) be canceled into a blocking state if an opponent's attack forces you into preblock
    - This means that low attacks will often hit somebody who is holding up+back, even if they would otherwise be able to jump in time to avoid it, because their jump will be interrupted into a standing block which will get hit low
    - Mid or high attacks will interrupt your prejump frames and cause you to block them standing
    - Preblock is caused by an attack within 200 pixels distance (at 720p), measured from the edge of one character's collision box to the opposing character's
    - Moves that do not cause preblock to occur will hit you out of your jump startup and you will not be able to block them while holding up+back during your jump startup frames.
    - Things that do not cause grounded preblock: Assists, Projectiles, Fortune's head, Excellabella, Take the A-Train, throws (anything else?)
    - If you are holding up+back against one of the above attacks you will be hit out of your prejump frames (excluding throws, since prejump frames are throw invincible)
    - In some cases you can avoid a low/throw mixup by holding up or up+forward, as you will not go into preblock from the low attack if you aren't holding up+back.
    - For example, Cerebella's cr.LK has 8 frames of startup, if you hold up or up+forward, you will be able to get off the ground before cr.LK goes active unless Cerebella has some frame advantage to work with. If you were holding up+back, preblock would prevent you from jumping and you would get hit

    Landing Frames

    - All characters have 2 landing recovery frames when touching the ground after a jump
    - If the player did any attacks or other actions in the air other than jumping/air dashing, your landing recovery frames are totally vulnerable
    - In this case you will not be able to block during your landing frames, nor will you be able to jump to avoid a throw. This is sometimes called Trip Guard (although the terminology is pretty ambiguous)
    - If you did not attack during your jump, you will immediately be able to block or jump to avoid a throw
    - For example, if you jump into an active Daisy Pusher but did not attack during your jump, you will immediately be able to jump again to avoid being thrown
    - In the above example, if you attacked during your jump your landing frames become vulnerable and you will fall in.

    Air Blocking and Chicken Block

    -
    When a character lands on the ground during blockstun, all blockstun ends immediately
    - This shortened blockstun will allow you to punish things that would not otherwise be punishable, this is often called chicken blocking
    - Example: air blocking Filia's s.HP will often allow you to punish it, where as it is (mostly) safe when blocked on the ground
    - You can also use this shortened blockstun to break up projectile traps or blockstrings
    - For example, jumping and air blocking Peacock's projectiles while close to the ground can greatly reduce the blockstun, allowing you to create gaps in a sequence of projectiles that normally wouldn't allow you to move
    - On a somewhat related note: Airblocking peacock's item drop actually causes you to move forward instead of pushing you backwards like all her other projectiles

    Throws and Hit Grabs

    - A hit grab is a blockable attack that locks both characters into a scripted animation when they connect
    - Examples include - Pummel Horse, Silver Cord
    - Both characters are invulnerable until the animation is finished, and this can be used to avoid incoming assists and projectiles (also true for throws)
    - A hit grab cannot be parried and ignores super armor but otherwise acts like a normal attack until it connects

    Super Armor

    -
    Super Armored moves allow the character to be hit without placing them into hitstun
    - Each super armor move has a specific number of hits that it can absorb
    - Throws and hit grabs ignore super armor
    - A "Sweep" type move ignores super armor. This includes every character's cr.HK
    - Some non-sweep moves also ignore armor, such as Fortune's Cat Slide and Double's Cilia Slide
    - When an attack is 'absorbed' by Super Armor, the character receives 50% of the attack's normal damage
    - As an exception, Diamonds Are Forever (Cerebella's Level 3 super) is not interrupted by Sweep attacks and can absorb an unlimited number of hits

    Superflash Hitstop

    - Superflash Hitstop occurs during certain super moves
    - It prevents the opponent from taking any action, even blocking
    - If your character was already attacking or blocking before the hitstop occurred, you will be stuck in that state until the hitstop ends
    - Superflash hitstop is typically 8 frames after the super flash OR until the attack's first active frame, whichever comes first
    - Just like the other instances of hitstop in the game, you can buffer inputs during a Superflash hitstop but your character will not be able to do anything until the end of the hitstop.

    Assists

    -
    When an assist is called, it jumps next to the point character. The assist lands and becomes vulnerable for 2 frames before executing its attack
    - This means that even invincible assist attacks like Updo have a short vulnerability period
    - If the point character is hit while the assist is on-screen but not yet attacking, it will be interupted and the assist will leave the screen without attacking
    - Assists appear either; Behind the point character, slightly in front of the point character, or further in front of the point character, depending on the assist used
    - Assists take 35% additional damage
    - Assists are invincible to throws and to 'hit-grab' attacks
    - An assist can be called again immediately as soon as it leaves the stage
    - If an assist takes any damage while on screen, it adds a 120 frame (2 second) lockout that prevents assist calls an tags (in addition to the time it takes for the assist to leave the stage)
    - As such, knocking an assist down or inflicting other long hitstuns like a stagger or crumple on it will also extend the time that the assist cannot be used
    - A snapback against the point character or assist locks out the assist for 300 frames (5 seconds)
    - Assists become invincible as soon as they return to a neutral standing state on the ground or are knocked down with no OTG available. They will then get up and leave the screen as normal
    - If both the 'point' and assist characters are both hit by a snapback at the same time, a Double Snap occurs
    - During a Double Snap, the point character is thrown off the stage and attacking player can combo the assist with impunity
    - IPS and undizzy do not apply to assists and assists cannot block, allowing the attacking player to continue to combo the assist until it is dead or the assist is allowed to return to neutral and leave the screen
    - During a double snap, the attacking player gains no super meter. The defending player steadily gains meter over time but does not gain super meter for his assist receiving damage

    Throws
    - Normal throws have 7 frames of startup
    - The throw tech window for a normal throw is 13 frames
    - If you are thrown out of the startup frames of a throw, a throw tech occurs instead
    - The throw tech window for Cerebella's Grab Bag is 4 frames

    Parry/Noise Cancel
    - http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Skullgirls/BigBand#Command_Normals
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2014
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  2. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
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    Great work! Many thanks <3

    Now to being me:
    Makes it sound like Throws hit you out of upback

    While A-Train and Excel are technically hitgrabs with a specific unblockable condition, I think it's easier to just take out the A-Train from this example, as it's.. confusing ("I can't block this!"). Better put Buer Reaper there.

    I don't think this is 'an exception to Super Armor' but rather something else (Hyper Armor)

    This is not "Projectile assists", but just.. some.
    IIRC there are 3 spots an assist can come from; directly behind (Parasoul M.Tearshot), directly in front (Fortune H.Fiber), far in front (Filia H.Updo).
    Mike just puts that for each individual assist (default being "directly in front"); It so happens that most projectile assists come from behind, but it's not only them and it's not at all of them.

    For example:
    - Fukua L.Love Dart, Painwheel M.Nail come out in front of the point character
    - Bigband H.Brass comes out behind the point character

    While assists are invincible to throws, assist throws can be teched

    But will only actually do its attack if it's "legal", ie (only example?) Peacock L.Bomb assist at fullscreen, if you call her again while the George is still on screen, she will hop in but not actually do anything and just leave again

    Is that it? I've never really caught what the thing that ended up in the game was, the most recent entry in the ToDo says 120f?!

    To-Do
    DONE - If your assist is hit, when they leave you cannot call assists/tag for 60f.
    DONE - Put snapout assist lock back to 300f; assist lock on hit 75f.
    DONE - Increase lockout time for an assist getting hit to 120f (from 75f)

    ++ Snapping out an assist only locks them out for 180f
    ++ Doublesnapping counts as Point Snap (300f lockout), but only locks out if the assist isn't hit afterwards (ie if you Doublesnap midscreen)
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
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  3. Jason

    Jason Not JasonD

    Squigly
    Big Band
    Cerebella
    Hmm, I'll have to double check the amount of time. The offical patch notes http://skullgirls.com/2014/02/skullgirls-encore-patch-notes/ say 60 frames.

    Also I thought he took out that thing where it was a shorter lockout if you only snapped the assist and not the point character. I couldn't find any mention of it in the final patch notes.

    As far as Diamdonds Are Forever goes, tbh I'd rather think of it as a one-of exception unless we start getting more moves put into the game that also have Hyper Armor.

    Edit - cleaned up a few things for clairity
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  4. Merlock

    Merlock Best skullgirl splayer mn

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    Parasoul
    Unless it was changed and I didn't see it in the notes I believe assists are vulnerable for 3f on entry instead of 2f.
     
  5. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    Iirc 3f with current frameskip is 2f
     
  6. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    Frameskip doesn't work like that. Just think about frameskip as "everything happens normally, just faster".
    2f is 2f, 5f is 5f, 10f is 10f, the game doesn't care about frameskip. You just may not SEE all of them. Inputs are read, everything happens on a skipped frame except rendering.
    Right now it skips every 7th frame, so 2f is generally 2f even visually (since 5/7 times both frames will be shown).

    Also other types of nugget.
     
  7. Ruin

    Ruin Hopes & Dreams

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    i can't believe mike z goes around giving chicken nuggets to the children of the world
    what a beautiful man
     
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  8. Cellsai

    Cellsai BEEP BOOP BAN Art Moderator

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    Stickied because it's a damn useful and well made thread. Good job, you.
     
  9. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

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    Beginner forum maybe? This seems more like a database or guide.
     
  10. Jason

    Jason Not JasonD

    Squigly
    Big Band
    Cerebella
    Wasn't meant to be either of those things, really. I wanted to get into a discussion about the finer points of the game mechanics and how they can be used in matches but it seems like nobody has anything to say other than a few minor corrections.
     
  11. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Cerebella
    Holding up+forward to get out of low/throws is really interesting.

    How does pre-block work exactly? if you jump and on the fourth frame I hit a button, that puts you in pre-block?

    And also may be good to mention moves other than supers have hitstop, I know Cerebella's s.hp has some.
     
  12. Merlock

    Merlock Best skullgirl splayer mn

    Location:
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    Yes, any move startup that overlaps with prejump frames will trigger preblock instead when the blue collision hitboxes are within "about 300 pixels" according to mike

    this is also why titan knuckle will catch people during prejump who are upbacking on wakeup, because it isn't close enough to force proximity guard
     
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  13. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

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    No idea what you mean by this
     
  14. Izzmo

    Izzmo EVO Champ 2014

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    Eliza
    I think you're confusing what we've called hitstop with something there. There are no frames of "your opponent's frozen in time" on Bella's s.HP.
     
  15. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    I was pretty sure Mike referred to it as hitstop. The frames when s.hp connects and... something something... I don't remember how it works exactly, but he made the change when he made s.hp, Pummel Horse easier.
     
  16. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
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    Filia
    Double
    EVERY Move has hitstop when it connects so you get some OOMPH behind your attacks. It means you HIT, and then both chars are frozen in that spot for a while.
    Compare mashing jab at fullscreen (all of them whiffing) with mashing jab where it hits someone (hitstop applying to each and every hit), the latter is much much slower.
    That hitstop may have gotten increased, I dunno?? But it has nothing to do with the post-superflash hitstop that makes Supers unblockable on reaction
     
  17. Izzmo

    Izzmo EVO Champ 2014

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    He meant either hitlag (the freeze both characters are affected by upon an attack hitting) or hitstun then. The freeze you put on your opponent during superflash to prevent countersupers is referred to as hitstop. (Which I don't understand the reason for. Seems unintuitive since you haven't hit anything yet and looks more like a synonym for hitlag.)
     
  18. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

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    What's the exact amount of frames for an incoming character after death/snap and on double snap?
     
  19. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    When talking about it, Mike seemed like the stuff on Cerebella's s.hp was special, or different, I think. Oh, I think it was during the freeze/stop/lag/whatever buttons you hit are all hit on the same frame after the period ends. Or something.
     
  20. Izzmo

    Izzmo EVO Champ 2014

    Location:
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    Eliza
    That's probably hitlag he was talking about. S.HP has a ton of it so the regular buffer window might not be big enough to cover it all so you're allowed to buffer a followup during the entire hitlag because why not.

    We need some dictionary for this stuff to avoid confusion, maybe.
     
  21. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
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    labzero_mike
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    Cerebella
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    Peacock
    hi what why do you keep saying words

    s.HP -> Pummel Horse was made easier because the run looks for followup commands entered before she actually starts the run, i.e. during the hitstop from s.HP you can do F+HK (to run) then LP+LK (to Pummel Horse) and when the run DOES start after hitstop is over it will notice you hit LP+LK.

    Not at all related to supers, which put your opponent into a the "stuck" part of hitstop without caring where they are or affecting the character doing the super.
     
  22. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

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    @Mike_Z since you're here, can you answer this :P
     
  23. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    I have a condition.
    So two kinds of hitstop that are both referred to as hitstop? Or is super flash hitstop exclusively called super flash hitstop? Do any other moves have non-superflash hitstop?
     
  24. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

    Location:
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    Didn't the most recent patch notes say that super flash hitstop only last for one frame into the hitbox and not 8.
     
  25. Izzmo

    Izzmo EVO Champ 2014

    Location:
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    Weirdly, yes, zid, two things are called the same.
    Why not call one thing superfreeze or something and the thing that happens when you actually hit something hitstop/lag.

    Yes, that superfreeze was reduced to reach into only the first active frame with some exceptions like air-scalpels and non Seria-Sing cancelled SBO, RemiKz.
     
  26. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    At least I know I wasn't completely misremembering, and it was partly cause things are named confusingly.
     
  27. Jason

    Jason Not JasonD

    Squigly
    Big Band
    Cerebella
    Fighting game terminology is a mess, tbh, its not standardized at all.
     
  28. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Fukua
    Mikes terminology is all screwed up.... The man sometimes refers to
    Painwheels buer as a command throw...

    Anyways funnily enough, zid was actually right here albeit about different moves. Snapbacks and lvl 2 sing both have super freeze and are not supers. Generally speaking when not in mikes world, hitPAUSE is what is being referred to when talking about the state that both characters get put in when one hits with an attack. Super freeze is the other thing.
     
  29. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    What do you mean, funnily enough?!?!

    *Sob*


    But yeah, there's non-super freezepops like Battle Oprah and Tattoos. Any others? Oh, and speaking of Tattoos, people aren't allowed to Mashed Potatoes a Chestburster if Snaptatted during fireworks. Is that part of the freezepops?

    Terminology.

    Edit: Thinking back on it, I should probably translate that. There is an actual question. "But yeah, there's non-super hitstop like SBO and Snapbacks. Any others? Oh, and speaking of Snapbacks, people aren't allowed to Mash a burst if Snapbacked during hitsparks. Is that part of the hitstop?"
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014
  30. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    Hitstop = a state wherein your character is frozen (doesn't move) for some frames, but queues up inputs for next time they are allowed to move.

    On a successful hit, both characters enter hitstop for a while. This is pretty much a universal thing in fighting games. On most attacks they both experience it for the same length of time, but on some (Peacock cr.MK) the opponent is in it longer than the attacker, and on some moves (blocked Brass Knuckles) the attacker is in it for longer than the opponent. For examples of long hitstop see Q's Deadly Double Combination or Ryu's Shin Shoryuken in Third Strike.
    After superfreeze, ONLY the other point character is placed into hitstop for a while, effectively becoming stuck in whatever frame they were in when the superfreeze started for an extra amount of time to allow the super to hit from further away or whatever. This is the same as old Capcom games, check Juggernaut's Headcrush in whatever you like, Shoryureppa (especially Lv3 in games that have lv3s), etc. In SFEX+@, some supers move over half screen during the hitstop.

    I only called them both "hitstop" because they are exactly the same thing in the game, what your character is doing is the same, and there really wasn't a term for it before that. People called it "frame kill" in MvC2 when you used it to make DHCs combo that normally don't (like Sent cr.Fierce->HSF->DHC and the drones combo off the cr.Fierce which doesn't normally happen), but that's about it.

    --

    You can't burst from snapbacks while flying offscreen, that's just to make snaps a more useful thing since you spent meter to land one. Unrelated to hitstop.
     
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  31. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

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    Is it normal for projectiles to continue moving during super flash and/or hitstop?
     
  32. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    Projectiles and assists and anything that isn't the opponent's point character do continue moving during super-hitstop. It only applies specifically to the opponent's point character. For example, if they are doing a super, they can DHC out during that hitstop because the assist isn't stopped.

    During superfreeze it can happen if they are created on the frame the freeze begins, but that's rare enough and difficult enough to fix that it's probably sticking around.
     
  33. Natezer

    Natezer Get Innocuous!

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    Would something like guilty gear's FRC flash work in training mode?
     
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  34. Vadsamoht

    Vadsamoht Well-Known Member Administrator

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    Moved the PBGC flash suggestion to a new thread here on request.
     
  35. Jason

    Jason Not JasonD

    Squigly
    Big Band
    Cerebella
    It is something that definitely gives Cerebella some trouble. For example, a typical reset that I do is s.MP or s.LP into a cr.LK/Throw mixup.

    But since s.MP is only +2 on hit and cr.LK has 8 frames of startup, that means there is a 6 frame gap. Jumps have 4 frames of startup so your opponent can actually get off of the ground if they are holding up or up+forward and cr.LK will whiff and so will the throw, obviously. Now, if the opponent is holding up+back, they'll get put into preblock by the cr.LK, which will interrupt their jump startup frames and they'll be stand blocking and get hit.

    Of course, its not as if Cerebella doesn't have ways to deal with this, she has Excellabella and her air throw. You could even do s.LP which has 6f startup and has a hitbox that is further above the ground, its fast enough to hit somebody out of the air who's holding up or up+forward. There's also plenty of other options for resets that give you enough frame advantage so it won't lose to holding up like s.HP Runstop (+10 on hit), s.LK (+5 on hit) or avoid the problems all together with air resets, cr.MK resets and things of that nature.

    It is something that you do want to be aware of though.

    I'm not sure exactly how soon preblock starts but I think it begins on the first startup frame of the move, I don't really have any proof of that though.

    I do know that it requires you to be within a certain range, I think Mike said the distance was '300'? Not sure but its hard to tell what that means with out a frame of reference though. It seems to be fairly close and doesn't seem to depend on which move you use. For example, if Big Band does cr.HK at the start of a match the opponent can up+back and they'll get off the ground and air-block it or make it whiff entirely since he's not close enough to cause preblock at that range.
     
  36. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    If you are doing a low-throw mixup that has a gap long enough for them to jump out, you're doing a poor mixup which wouldn't even catch up-back in any other game.

    Anyway.

    The ability to cause preblock begins on the first frame of any attack, as soon as they enter the animation. It lasts typically until the end of the animation for the attack.
    The range is 200 (pixels at 720x1280, which is the default unit of distance in SG) from the front of your blue box to the front of theirs. I just looked it up.
    Actions which are not blockable like throws, Fukua shadow summon, and Parasoul's LK Trigger/tear tosses, should not cause preblock. If you find any that do, tell me and I'll fix 'em. :^)
     
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  37. zeknife

    zeknife Well-Known Member

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    It turns out pummel horse doesn't trigger preblock, even though it's blockable
    Buer does, so it doesn't seem like an intended exception.

    I guess this is the opposite of what you asked, but it seems relevant

    Edit: Though a bunch of projectile supers also trigger preblock even though the attack itself isn't blockable, like both of parasouls level 1's, possibly her level 3 (It hits so fast it would be effort to inspect it), maybe others
    Edit 2: It makes sense with the fast hitting ones since it prevents them from hitting you right out of jump startup
    Fukuas fireball super seems to be an exception to this though, even SBO triggers preblock
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2014
  38. FiliaRage

    FiliaRage Member

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    Ms. Fortune
    Big Band
    This is something that is probably going to sound REALLY stupid, but I feel inclined to ask anyway. Is learning each and every mechanic essential for becoming good at the game? I know most of the basic mechanics required for being defensive and landing combos, but I feel that I'm probably gonna have to know more.
     
  39. obregon

    obregon Active Member

    No. The biggest tech nerd players in fighters are very rarely the top players. Just take the good stuff that works and use it.
     
  40. ClarenceMage

    ClarenceMage git gud

    Steam:
    ClarenceMage
    PSN:
    ClarenceMage
    Valentine
    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Let me put it this way, if you want to become better, then learning more about the game is probably something you want to do.
     
    Wenzel, mcpeanuts and Dime like this.

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