General Gameplay Discussion

Discussion in 'Gameplay General' started by Dude, Sep 3, 2013.

  1. PME

    PME R.I.P. Airdash Cancels

    Location:
    Virginia
    Steam:
    KPB | PME
    PSN:
    PMEmmanuel
    Ms. Fortune
    Fukua
    Robo Fortune
    Reaction Feral Edge beats it, reaction jump-forward Feral Edge doesn't.
     
  2. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

    Location:
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Steam:
    fullbleed
    PSN:
    nFuLLBLeeD
    Ms. Fortune
    Big Band
    Thanks for taking the time to read my thesis everyone, I apologize for the awful run on sentences and grammar mistakes that are still in there.
     
  3. PME

    PME R.I.P. Airdash Cancels

    Location:
    Virginia
    Steam:
    KPB | PME
    PSN:
    PMEmmanuel
    Ms. Fortune
    Fukua
    Robo Fortune
    We humna, yuo godo
     
  4. Sotherius

    Sotherius Pure Platinum!

    Steam:
    sotherius
    XBL:
    Sotherius
    Unknown
    Unknown
    Unknown
    I'm really curious right now, for personal reasons.

    But what you more experienced guys think about each team ratio, and how those team configurations will evolve trough the lifetime of SG?

    Like, it seems that duos are more common than solos or trios, and solos are the most rare in high level play, do you guys think that SG will evolve until a point where people will only use a certain specific configuration? Or at least to some point where some configuration will not be used at all?
     
  5. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    Tl:dr people will find what works both for them and overall. Each comp has its perks as well as its downsides. Also "evolution" in terms of meta differs from each region. Example: people in aus will insist you SHOULD BE playing big band because he's gud. Some other people have different opinions. There will also be a duo trio and most certainly a solo player.
     
  6. Age

    Age Well-Known Member

    Regarding opening gambits; my thought at first was that the characters with instant(ish) threats like Eliza's dp, or Bella's kara command grabs would be the ones with the strongest openers. With Val and Parasoul it's obviously not that simple; they're definitely strong, but they don't really have immediate threats, they just put out these hitbox walls that are tough to get past.

    So how about the other end of the spectrum? Are there characters who really lose on the opening gambit?

    Also, I've been thinking about risk/reward with resets after FullBleed's post. So here's some thoughts on factors that might go into it.

    Show Spoiler

    If the defender has access to a reversal, they might be more likely to use it if they have; a meterless followup, a happy birthday opportunity, or a safe dhc. If burst sparks are triggered immediately prior to a mixup, the attacker reduces the risk against pre-emptive reversals to being put back into neutral. If the defender's reversal would only have put them at neutral then a trigger into mixup is a tradeoff; if the defender's meter is important, a burst is worse for the attacker, but if the attackers health is more important the burst is better for the attacker.

    example: Peacock wants to reset a solo Cerebella. If she goes for a low/throw, bella has access to 360 into combo, which would be a nasty turn around. Triggering ips first as a tick into low/throw improves that risk reward for peacock. If she goes for an instant overhead, Bella has access to battle butt and dynamo, which do a chunk of damage but bring it back to neutral. If Peacock is low health then an ips trigger will help mitigate the risk of dying to the reversal, but if Peacock has health to spare, not triggering first might get Bella to spend her meter, reducing her options.

    If the defender has high health and the undizzy bar is full, getting hit by a mixup is a smaller threat, so they should be less likely to press buttons. Some things that encourage button presses would be ground tech opportunities, lockdowns, or other obvious pushblock points.

    Example: A painwheel/double has taken a solo squigly to 70% life and wants to reset. If squigly gets hit by a throw or an assist crossup, the damage won't be much at all, so they should be happy to try to block on reaction. Since squigly will likely be a passive defender, Painwheel can use feints to make a mixup harder to read; moving left and right above squigly's head before choosing which side to come down on, or landing and flying or delaying slightly. Painwheel might also try to convince squigly to press a button by jumping in and calling assist to threaten a lockdown, then cancel into fly to bait a potential pushblock.

    Conversely, if the defender is low health, the difference in damage from a counterhit doesn't matter, so they should be more willing to be active on defense.

    Another thing is with safe dhc's a safejump setup isn't as good for the attacker compared to burst baits or trigger into mixup.
     
    Dime likes this.
  7. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Fukua
    question to anyone who wants to answer it seriously:

    ive often heard from many players on this forum that one of the primary ways of dealing with AA assists is to throw the guy that is calling the AA assist. used to feel this way as well. however, people can STILL TECH when calling assists.

    so my question is, what do you do to stop this?
    there doesn't seem to be any really good answer. you can throw them and they just tech. you can try for an overhead, but that is always to slow since an AA assist is coming to ruin your day.

    I know one can make the assist wiff and then countercall/wiff punish, but is that the best that can be done?
    I personally can armor through the assist with painwheels ground moves and then crumple the assist and the point getting a happy birthday... but that only works like once a set if that. it just doesn't feel like there are any particularly great things to be directly done to this...

    am I wrong?
     
  8. Lex

    Lex Skill pending

    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    Steam:
    Lex
    PSN:
    Ilexyellowdog
    Valentine
    Filia
    Double
    Would a multi-hit low work? All assists are vulnerable for a couple of frames so it will catch the assist if timed well and the opponent has to guess whether you will throw or go for a low. Obviously it is only an option for characters with multi-hit lows.
     
  9. Pickles

    Pickles VT scene?

    Location:
    Vermont
    Steam:
    Pickles (/id/shamanlord)
    PSN:
    PS_Shamanlord (but I rarely use this for SG)
    Filia
    Double
    Unknown
    I don't exactly know what you mean by AA assist. If you mean like a-train/excellabella then of course you don't have to grab you can go low/throw (or a standing overhead if your character has one). Any assist without invuln startup you can just meaty it anyway

    edit: even though you said AA it sounds more like you mean invuln/DP assists; generally what I would do is throw them because most people are blocking when they call a DP assist to reduce the chance of being happy birthdayed, and if the opponent catches on and starts teching/upbacking then you can meaty low to beat the assist in the vulnerable frames or just countercall when you go to grab so even if they tech your assist still hits theirs and pressures the opponent.
     
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  10. Sotherius

    Sotherius Pure Platinum!

    Steam:
    sotherius
    XBL:
    Sotherius
    Unknown
    Unknown
    Unknown
    DP's are the oldest and most common form of anti air, so i believe he meant stuff like Updo, Beat extend, Napalm Pillar,etc.

    Honestly, i think that what makes assists strongs (DP assists in this case), is the fact that there isn't a reliable way to punish or stop that. You have to try something, and if it will work or not, depends on the situation and what the guy calling the assist decides to do.
     
    PME likes this.
  11. akindhobo

    akindhobo derp

    Location:
    Belize
    Steam:
    a_kind_hobo
    Squigly
    Eliza
    you could space an active move somewhere where it will hit the assist but force the opponent to block, something like squigly's c.lp or val's c.mp. you could also block and call your assist so you go back somewhat to neutral. you could also still go for the grab and call your assist so if they tech their assist goes away but yours still comes out and they have to block it. If you have a command grab you can go for that and they can't tech but they can jump and the dp assist will hit you anyway. There's no one way to beat it just options to work around it, thats kinda the design of the game really I've noticed for a while now.
     
  12. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Fukua
    Thx guys. Yes I was talking about DP assists. In marvel, AAA (anti air assists) are generally all DP's.

    Unfortunately I know all of these things mentioned and still have trouble with DP assists. Don't know what I was looking for tbh.

    But I did get some good advice from a friend:

    Instead of just calling an assist to counter call the dp assist... Try to combo the opponents assist while counter calling to do more damage to the assist. Something so simple, and I was completely neglecting it and instead just counter calling and trying to go in and attack the point.

    From now on I'm going to be countercalling the assists and looking to do as much damage as possible via continuing the combo. It isn't the greatest strat but it might be the thing I'm really missing in my play... Damage to force respect.
     
  13. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Fukua
    @Mike_Z

    There seems to be some sort of glitch in training mode:

    Trio BE L assist.

    It gets called, and then I attack the assist as it recovers and the first hit does like no damage. This seems to be somewhat random and somewhat timing based. The easiest I've been able to do is painwheels jlp and jlk but it works with painwheels jmk as well, and is very easy to see by doing painwheels jmp, the first hit does like no damage, but the next 3 hits seem to do regular damage.


    Idk what exactly is going on here and it may just be a training mode thing or a BE L thing or a pw thing.. But it is certainly "something"

    On the other hand, doing painwheels launcher always seems to do full damage. I've gotten counter call h brass assist to do VERY LITTLE damage as well, but it only occurred once.


    Is this some kind of feature?
     
  14. Golbat

    Golbat Active Member

    Location:
    Kansas
    Steam:
    golbat
    Ms. Fortune
    Unknown
    Unknown
    big meme lover

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. BigEffinDud

    BigEffinDud When's Annie?

    Steam:
    BigEffinDud
    PSN:
    BigEffinDud
    Valentine
    Double
    Robo Fortune
    Please tell me this isn't a thing on purpose???
     
    obregon, Domo, ShadeMoneh and 10 others like this.
  16. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Steam:
    may_contain_peanuts
    Double
    Big Band
    Peacock
    lmao
     
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  17. Wenzel

    Wenzel I like parry

    Location:
    Sonora, Mexico
    Steam:
    Wenzeln
    PSN:
    Wenzeln
    Valentine
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    in b4 Squigly/ Val top tier combo
     
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  18. Liam

    Liam ... Administrator

    Location:
    West Canada
    Steam:
    Skarmand
    PSN:
    Skarmand
    Robo Fortune
    Double
    I did some testing on alpha counters last night.
    The person who is using an alpha counter has a 1F window where they can input a move on landing after their invincibility period (from entering the screen) ends.
    This means that say Robo-Fortune was doing Cannon and you alpha countered into Cerebella to prevent the previous character dying from chip, you have a 1F window when Cerebella lands to input showstopper / dynamo / level 3 before she will begin getting hit. [Say her assist was Cerecopter]

    However, the opponent has 5 frame window to reversal the person who is doing the alpha counter.
    As in, there are 4 frames the opponent can act (the game resumes and unfreezes 4F before the opponent can act) to input a reversal before the opponent is able to.

    So if you are Cerebella, and they alpha counter from say Peacock to their Bella (who's assist is Cerecopter) you have a 5F window to pump out your 360 before them and they have a 1F window.
    They have to nail the 1F window when they land to 360 from their alpha counter.

    Some maybe useful information.

    EDIT: To help visualize this, this is what the reversal windows look like.

    Red is person doing AC.
    Green is person not doing AC, they are free to input anything during these frames.
    Grey boxes are frames where the person doing an AC is falling into the screen, and invincible.
    Red box is the frame where the person is still invincible but it's the frame they have to input their attack if they want it to come out when they become vulnerable, which is yellow.
    Yellow is the frame where you land and begin your assist action, so if you haven't already input 360 on the previous frame, you'll get Cerecopter start up and potentially counter hit.

    Time --------------->
    [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    [][][][][][][][][][][][]
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
    shuckle, mcpeanuts, Mao and 6 others like this.
  19. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    CaioLugon
    PSN:
    O3366-2020O
    Ms. Fortune
    Cerebella
    Big Band


    Squigly can do it with j.lp M divekick, peacock can do j.lk adc j.lk, and robo can do j.lp j.mk.
     
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  20. akindhobo

    akindhobo derp

    Location:
    Belize
    Steam:
    a_kind_hobo
    Squigly
    Eliza
    time to switch to pad
     
  21. BigEffinDud

    BigEffinDud When's Annie?

    Steam:
    BigEffinDud
    PSN:
    BigEffinDud
    Valentine
    Double
    Robo Fortune
    Can someone tell me why I got hit here?
    Other than the fact that I was blocking low. Like why was I turned around? As you can see I got hit in an area outside of Eliza's j.LK hitbox, if Parasoul was facing the corner it would have whiffed, but instead she got turned around and I got hit. Just wanna know why...
    Show Spoiler
    [​IMG]
    Show Spoiler
     
  22. Liam

    Liam ... Administrator

    Location:
    West Canada
    Steam:
    Skarmand
    PSN:
    Skarmand
    Robo Fortune
    Double
    You got turned around because you face the opposite direction of the opponent, and Eliza was facing left, so you had to face right.
    You got hit because the jLK hitbox is very deceptive, and because your blocking hurtbox is very far away from the actual sprite.
    If you have hitstun / blockstun hitboxes reel all the way back with the animations, tons of confirms break and it's absolutely awful.
    SF4 does this, and as a result there are so many character specific combos that also change depending on hit and block AND if the opponent is crouching or not.
    You can negate the best combos for the opponents by just holding down since they wont link anymore, etc.

    Images below to help visualize this exchange:


    Show Spoiler


    [​IMG]
    asdasd.PNG
     
  23. Mao

    Mao Buttons 'R Fun

    Location:
    Auckland, NZ
    Steam:
    Mao
    PSN:
    sussex4lyf
    Peacock
    Double
    Big Band

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