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General Gameplay Discussion

Summarize Dime! D:

Joking aside though, it looks like the problem is Titan Knuckle xx Cilia Slide (I want something like this!). So, either go for nothing but air resets OR snap in Double. At least, Band Wagon xx Diamond Dynamo isn't safe at all AND Cat Heads from point Double costs 2 meters.

If you have a good Peacock, you can actually zone her out; mobility options aside, Bella still struggles against Peacock with a good neutral assist. But, you need to get rid of the Bella with Double threat, imo. And be aware of possible areas for PBGC and block accordingly.

This leads to my problem though. I don't use Double (Cilia Slide) or Val (Savage Bypass) but I want something like Age has. My characters are Peacock and PW, Squiggly when I'm on PC. Any suggestions?

Edit: In general, a good time to look for a snap is when you're against a strong point reversal into a safe DHC. So, as a rule you should look for a snap whenever Double is in the back, and the point has something like a Fenrir or Dynamo. This takes away the follow-up for a super reversal and (more importantly) the safety of the DHC, which should mess with your opponent's plan if he's thinking.

Also, anything into Cat Heads should be the priority DHC to ruin for the opponent imo.
 
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View619 said:
Summarize Dime! D:

Joking aside though, it looks like the problem is Titan Knuckle xx Cilia Slide (I want something like this!). So, either go for nothing but air resets OR snap in Double. At least, Band Wagon xx Diamond Dynamo isn't safe at all AND Cat Heads from point Double costs 2 meters.

If you have a good Peacock, you can actually zone her out; mobility options aside, Bella still struggles against Peacock with a good neutral assist. But, you need to get rid of the Bella with Double threat, imo. And be aware of possible areas for PBGC and block accordingly.

This leads to my problem though. I don't use Double (Cilia Slide) or Val (Savage Bypass) but I want something like Age has. My characters are Peacock and PW, Squiggly when I'm on PC. Any suggestions?

Edit: In general, a good time to look for a snap is when you're against a strong point reversal into a safe DHC. So, as a rule you should look for a snap whenever Double is in the back, and the point has something like a Fenrir or Dynamo. This takes away the follow-up for a super reversal and (more importantly) the safety of the DHC, which should mess with your opponent's plan if he's thinking.

Also, anything into Cat Heads should be the priority DHC to ruin for the opponent imo.
Yeah the titan knuckle xx cilia slide after diamond dynamo is the problem... It allows Bella to convert off of midscreen regular grab, diamond drop, excelebella, diamond dynamo super, none of which she could before. This basically turns her into a throw machine AND gives her a projectile/missile assist that hits low while her air j.mp hits high and basically obliterates everything in its path. So you can't block, you can't jump you can't outrange it cause of dash jump, the only thing right now is to guess perfectly correctly.

I wouldn't mind this if it weren't for her crazy meter gain, priority, and damage... But having priority and damage as well as unbreakable ground and anti air throws and safe on block invincible moves is... Disconcerting to play against.

Like if painwheel had major priority like parasoul... That would be pretty stupid on a flight character. But at this point in time... It seems warranted if the untechable command grab character has armored run, double jump, glide and dash jump...as well as the best damned reversals in the game.
 
What's your team now Dime? Is there anyway for you make his grab guess a huge gamble as well with a strong DHC? Besides resets in the air/snapping in Double it sounds like you need to make him hesitant to go for the grab, which is the major problem. The follow-up just racks up the damage, it's the initial grab that's the problem. I'm not sure how well Cilia Slide works during neutral so you should have the advantage there. It also doesn't seem like a very good lock down assist (late call during a string to keep you grounded may work), so it seems pretty weak outside of the grab follow-ups.

If you play 3 characters, maybe have the initial character focus on nothing but meter building while the second and third have a strong DHC for reversal purposes? If you're still running PW/Double, you can try sticking a good battery at the front.
 
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Dime_x said:
Yeah the titan knuckle xx cilia slide after diamond dynamo is the problem... It allows Bella to convert off of... midscreen diamond dynamo super, [which she couldn't] before.

Except she could dash c.LK pickup before. Before it got removed.
 
Is this guy really talking about how bella is op

she's the worst fucking character in this version of the game I don't understand
 
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dekillsage said:
bella

worst fucking character in this version

HA HA NO

PLAY SOME GOOD BELLAS

COWER IN FEAR THEN CRY YOURSELF TO SLEEP
 
dekillsage said:
Is this guy really talking about how bella is op

she's the worst fucking character in this version of the game I don't understand
I don't think she's op. I just don't think she's... Designed well for fairness? Idk I don't know how to explain it. I do know that she's ass to air resets... Which is like the only thing about her I think keeps her down... Can't really think of anything else. She has no fireball... That's something.

But yeah she ain't op. Although worst character in the game?... Lol.

View619 said:
What's your team now Dime? Is there anyway for you make his grab guess a huge gamble as well with a strong DHC? Besides resets in the air/snapping in Double it sounds like you need to make him hesitant to go for the grab, which is the major problem. The follow-up just racks up the damage, it's the initial grab that's the problem. I'm not sure how well Cilia Slide works during neutral so you should have the advantage there. It also doesn't seem like a very good lock down assist (late call during a string to keep you grounded may work), so it seems pretty weak outside of the grab follow-ups.

If you play 3 characters, maybe have the initial character focus on nothing but meter building while the second and third have a strong DHC for reversal purposes? If you're still running PW/Double, you can try sticking a good battery at the front.

I'm experimenting around with teams. My "main" team is pw/parasoul/filia with pillar and hk hairball.

But against ages new team I had to go back to running duo for the damage.

I experiment with all sorts of teams the only characters I don't dabble in at all are the new ones and Bella and Val.
ClarenceMage said:
HA HA NO

PLAY SOME GOOD BELLAS

COWER IN FEAR THEN CRY YOURSELF TO SLEEP


Lol... Sage actually beat age in the 240 p tournie from what age said. Still, yeah... He be trollllllololololol in'
ClarenceMage said:
Except she could dash c.LK pickup before. Before it got removed.


Wasn't that character and timing and spacing specific for like a 1 frame link or something? Pw can otg after her own deathcrawl in the corner... But it's crazy timing and character specific and may even be gone... Point being that when something goes from being character specific with hard timing, to not being character specific, with easy timing... It's a whole new ballgame.
 
View619 said:
What's your team now Dime?

this has some good points in it so hopped on my laptop tso I could copy paste. I answered this question above.

Is there anyway for you make his grab guess a huge gamble as well with a strong DHC?

not that I know of... there is no option select that really deals with this. you just have to guess right afaik with pw on point. as far as guess counters? yeah theres plenty I think:

jump up and airsuper him is probably the easiest way to deal with it... but painwheel dies if she guesses wrong. everything else requires her to be in the air as well since shes has no immune to throws reversal that also hits. she DOES have reversal flight to go airborn on frame 1, and perhaps with a charged j.hp it wont be terrible... but idk... more often than not pw will probably just get destroyed by a cr.lk while trying to input the flight.


Besides resets in the air/snapping in Double it sounds like you need to make him hesitant to go for the grab, which is the major problem. The follow-up just racks up the damage, it's the initial grab that's the problem.

yeah I don't really know how to do that because of how bella is designed, simply jumping away from grab attempts doesn't work... she takes no damage unless the pw sniffs out the grab coming and does a perfectly timed jump and also does an airborn move to hit bella... simply neutral jumping and coming down with an attack ala what one would do against gief, doesn't work well here caus bellas diamond drop recovers so fast.


I'm not sure how well Cilia Slide works during neutral so you should have the advantage there.

the way age was using it was as a counter call for my assists that wiffed (like pillar) so I need to not wiff pillar... but then im having to deal with dash j.mp. he also uses it as a frame trap after he does a blcokstring and he also uses it in conjunction with j.mp.

It also doesn't seem like a very good lock down assist (late call during a string to keep you grounded may work), so it seems pretty weak outside of the grab follow-ups.

yeah he doesn't really use it for lockdown, just as a block beater/combo extender/assist punisher. and slight lockdown to make certain strings safe.

he doesn't use it to get in cause dash jump is so good he doesn't really need to and when dash jump wont work he will double jump and use double jumps ability to block and be above pw as a way to get close and bait out pillar. I cant really do much about the double jump... trying to make him land on hairball as he descends is really hard in lag...

If you play 3 characters, maybe have the initial character focus on nothing but meter building while the second and third have a strong DHC for reversal purposes? If you're still running PW/Double, you can try sticking a good battery at the front
.

one would certainly think that its weak at neutral... but it didn't seem so... and its really because bellas aggressive neutral is soooo good. that dash j.mp mixed in with the occasional instant jump back or neutral jump instant j.hp is really hard to deal with... pw cant beat those moves without committing heavily to an airsuper or an anti air assist.

im sure there are ways to approach this that im not thinking about... but shit if I know what they are, or can figure them out.
 
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Dime_x said:
snip

Start a character with better defensive options on point, put PW second. That way, you have strong defensive options with a strong/safe DHC. For your current team, Filia or Parasol at the front depending on which assist you think you'll need (Hair Ball vs Pillar).

For Bella grabs with PW, you can try whiff punishing with Air Super and converting from that into a combo.
 
yeah, i think the new team I have to try is fortune/double/pw...

Ive tried parasoul on point but all my fireballs get reflected back at me and I get out maneuvered via double jump and bella has better reversals and better blockbeaters.
 
Am I the only one who wants an in-game tutorial for IPS? I sincerely don't get it, and I have friends who don't really get it, and I can't direct them here every time one of them has a question, y'know?
 
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CapnWTF said:
Am I the only one who wants an in-game tutorial for IPS? I sincerely don't get it, and I have friends who don't really get it, and I can't direct them here every time one of them has a question, y'know?

erm
First chain on your combo doesn't count towards ips
if your first chain starts from a hit in the air, both the moves you used in the air and the chain you did on the ground don't count towards ips yet
a chain ends after a special move, a heavy attack, or if you go into an air series after a ground series (like bellas cr.mk leads to j.mp)
after the first chain every move you use in the next chain can not be used to start another chain

lets look at cerebellas bnb
cr.lk, cr.mp, cr.hp(1st chain ends. These moves can be reused because they do not count towards ips)
j.mk, j.hk(2nd chain ends. can not start the next air chain with j.mk or j.hk)
cr.lk(remember the first chain does not count towards ips), cr.mk(3rd chain ends because you go into an air series right after and you can no longer start a chain with cr.lk or cr.mk)
j.mp, j.hk(4th chain ends)
cr.mp(remember this was only used in the first chain), cr. hp (5th chain ends)
j.lp(mash/3), j.hp(6th chain ends)
st.lp, cr.mp, st.hk, cerecopter super(7th chain ends. combo ends)

notice how the starter of every chain starts with a move that was not used in a previous chain, excluding the first chain which lets you use those moves again.

But now lets say after the 4th chain in this combo I decide to go for cr.mk. I never used this as a starter in any other chain, but this will trigger ips because it was already used in a chain after the first chain. However, cr.mp will not trigger IPS because it was only used in the first chain which doesn't count towards ips.

Ihopethatmadesense
 
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Is there a general guide for IPS and similar mechanics? What about Age's thread in the Resource Competition area (best thread imo)?
 
Can you link that thread? I've watched age's videos on the mechanics and stuff but I haven't caught the thread
 
did you try snapping in Double? that would kill his dynamo->cat head game.
 
Snapping a character in is a decent strategy. I'm personally not a fan of snapping characters in when meter is needed to make anything happen after that snap tbh.

Dime you need to fly out of excellebella range, as cilia slide is worthless vs painwheel and bella can't force an approach vs painwheel. You say she has mobility because she can jump out of dash, but you have to understand and realize how long that takes, and the fact that it loses to painwheel throwing out an attack after bella initiates jump.

PBGC dynamo-> catheads is real, and with age's assist choice it can lead to a combo which leads to reset potential. But you're getting command grabbed as painwheel, which tells me you're letting him pressure you for free. You have pillar, use it to beat bella jumping at you
you have hairball, use it to beat cilia slides end lag or to put bella in blockstun.
Throw a needle, fly cancel it, keep yourself safe.
Do a HP needle, fly towards and make your approach with it. If you think he's gonna dynamo then just bait it, that's player vs player you have to realize that's an option by now and you have to make adjustments to beat it. Dynamo -> catheads vs painwheel is okay, but if painwheel gets away catheads can't reach her in time to be useful(for the most part)

Bellas problem comes from her inability to deal with resets that have her somewhere in the air because she has no air reversals. Parasoul and double suffer from this too. Don't go for ground resets or do something that will beat dynamo(block and call pillar to beat dynamo for example.)

That being said I'm a fan of Age's use of Cilia slide. I'd say Bella/CiliaSlide/Updo and Bella/Pillar/CiliaSlide are the best POINT bella teams thanks to cilia slide making all of bellas options much much better. Wish I could play 3man teams to play bella at her fullest potential haha
 
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I think Savage Bypass does the same thing for Bella's grabs, so you can mix it up with Bella/Val/Assist somewhat.
 
Yeah then you could use hornet bomber and have the val/hb team to work with. That's if SB works and I'm 3lazy to turn on sg right now q-q
 
Dagwood said:
did you try snapping in Double? that would kill his dynamo->cat head game.
The problem with snapping in Age's Double, is you have to deal with his Double + Cerecopter and then still with his Bella.

Honestly I like to get rid of the problem and remove Bella rather than snap Double in usually, but if Double is bleeding then I would always do it anyway.

I find it easier to take out Bella by playing to my advantages when he doesn't have Bomber than to take out his Double with those Cerecopter crossups/pressure.
 
dekillsage said:
Snapping a character in is a decent strategy. I'm personally not a fan of snapping characters in when meter is needed to make anything happen after that snap tbh.

If big band stays the way he is, I think we're going to have to snap him in a lot.
 
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Age said:
If big band stays the way he is, I think we're going to have to snap him in a lot.

Maybe. I play on running point double with LNL assist vs BB players because LNL beats rush punch.
 
Does BB rush punch have armour?
 
View619 said:
Does BB rush punch have armour?
Yes, 3 hits, I think sage means on reaction.

LnL would absorb the single hit and would hit BB. BB assist can do the exact same to LnL though.

I REALLY think I'll prefer cerecopter, I've already had a lot of success with it. it isn't a counter call, because BB will be able to absorb 3 hits before being interrupted, but called at the same time or before brass knuckle, it chews through it easily.

Cerecopter pretty much negates brass knuckle from being useful as a defensive assist. I've found it pretty effective for that purpose, but that could be because I don't like playing from disadvantage in SG, I prefer to be able to use an assist to negate brass knuckle being used defensively rather than offensively.

Big Band is certainly prime snap material. Though LEDD can beat me with solo Fillia anyway.
 
BB is gonna be a pain in the ass to deal with no matter what.

-Full screen rush punch with 3 hits armor
-Air and ground supers that do ridiculous damage and have invul start-up
-Parry

ugh :/
 
Well
I meant LNL assist. It wins because its slower, so bella just absorbs the hit and punches bb locking him out momentarily.
LNL on reaction works too. I personally don't think that assist is a big deal concerning how I play
 
The assist is not so much a problem no, its just a bigger hitbox LnL, Big Band second is a bit of a pain though. His DHC ins do sooo much damage its scary any time.

Big Band on point isn't really giving me troubles yet, LEDD is starting to parry jump ins and the like, but Big Band is just a bit of an easy target with his massive hitbox. He's also punishable on just about everything so you can play defensively pretty easily. It is really just his air to ground pressure so far that has given me any trouble at all.
 
I've gotta come up with cheaper shit and new painwheel strategies... Sigh.

I also think one of the problems is that I don't really like this version much at all. I still like sg I guess, but this version seems like the worst of all of them. I like throws and throws are kinda ass now except as starters, they are ass resets cause of lol no damage when used at high undizzy.

This game just shits all over my preferred style of play... And Bella gets to keep her ability to kill 2v2 with one reset... I don't see balance there... But then again that could easily have been said of sde trios versus sde solos... But then again I never understood why solos should be just as powerful as duos or trios... Solos are a lot easier to learn cause there is a lot less to learn.

But I digress...

@dekillsage


Good advice, I already do just about everything you said there (with the exception of snapping in double)... I guess I'm just not good enough at them. It just seems like easier said than done stuff.

Kinda like if I said the key to beating duck would be just to "not get hit by his assists" lol

But yeah man I understand, and it's good words of wisdom no matter what, I appreciate the help :)

I guess in the end, the answer is "as it always is" in the movement. I need to up my movement based footsies and find new spacings and timing to take things on.
 
Tomo009 said:
The assist is not so much a problem no, its just a
bigger faster longer stronger sliding knockdown get off me+lockdown
LnL
 
Age said:
bigger faster longer stronger sliding knockdown get off me+lockdown
It isn't super difficult to play around though, not yet anyway. It is faster but also Big Band stands around looking dopey for a loooong time afterwards, a lot longer than Bella I'm pretty sure?

His huge hitbox means you can pretty easily throw out a multi hit normal to stop him in his tracks on reaction, though I guess that isn't really an option for point Bella. It's worked pretty well for me with Fillia in particular, her j.MP combined with Cerecopter make brass knuckles not too scary as a neutral assist.

Where I'm struggling is when it is used on offense, it is a good anti DP assist call obviously and its size stops you from really getting away in that situation.
 
Point bella can sweep or LNL the assist. Or use run armor, battle butt

stuff
 
Don't sweeps/sweep assists stop armor?
Maybe somebody could ask Mike to make Big Band's armor weaker against sweeps? like if his rush punch has 3 points of armor, you can take it down with any attack into a sweep, or if it has 1 point of armor, just a sweep will stop him?
Iunno. But I guess it would be better to see if it's a problem before trying to solve it, right?
 
CapnWTF said:
Don't sweeps/sweep assists stop armor?
Maybe somebody could ask Mike to make Big Band's armor weaker against sweeps? like if his rush punch has 3 points of armor, you can take it down with any attack into a sweep, or if it has 1 point of armor, just a sweep will stop him?
Iunno. But I guess it would be better to see if it's a problem before trying to solve it, right?
Yeah they do, but if it is an assist, sweeps also tend to be pretty bad to be throwing out without hitting the point. Though I guess Bella's is pretty decent and you could always 623MP or Diamond Dynamo out of it if a Fillia is bearing down on you or something.

Sweep knocks down, regardless of armour, so it already does more than your suggested "buff" haha.
 
Also gotta remember that sweeps break armor... But only in active frames iirc. So armored moves can still EASILY beat sweeps since sweeps have no invulnerable startup.

I'm still seeing it as mostly theory fighter, I haven't seen video of anyone making the break property a threat.
 
Well I ran a set with ledd with slide assist (breaks armor) and it did work sometimes, but I still have a lot of problems against brass knuckle.

 
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@Age

Watching that set, It didn't seem like that assist was what REALLY giving you problems, it seemed like it was getting all of your stuff mashed out of that was the problem. That was a REALLY mashy set from both sides.

Not a put down, just... #skullgirls?
I guess to be good I should learn to mash more...and do unsafe shit. Cause when I see that set... That's what I see. Some good reads definitely. But a hell of a lot of unsafe shit followed by super/invincible special on block...

This is looking less and less like a game I have respect for.

Still fun though, I guess.
 
Jeez, dude loves his super mashes huh. It looked like Slide was working just fine, it's just the AA vs Filia approaches after that weren't being handled. And the lack of super baits/burst baits...

Respecting the assist and saving meter to blow it up with DD into Cats as well as slide countering in general seemed like a good plan. I also liked how Cerecopter was wrecking Brass Knuckle easily whenever it was on the field.

@Dime_x
You gotta be smart even when everything looks really stupid, imo. Set up your team so you can mash freely with two meter and DHC out if it gets blocked (Age's DD can go into follow-up on hit or Cats to make it safe and keep up pressure on block). Watching that set reminds me why learning burst baits is really good as an option vs super mashing...
 
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