Headless vs Head On Matchup Discussion

Discussion in 'Ms. Fortune' started by FuLLBLeeD, May 9, 2016.

  1. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

    Location:
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Steam:
    fullbleed
    PSN:
    nFuLLBLeeD
    Ms. Fortune
    Big Band
    I've wanted to make this thread for a while, but I am just now getting around to it. What matchups do you prefer to play head on versus headless in, and why? I personally prefer playing head off, but certain matchups you really shouldn't be playing head off in. On the flip side, there are certain matchups that I feel head off is flat out better in, and people should be playing her exclusively in those matchups.

    This is a very general run through of the various matchups in the game and if I prefer head on, head off, if either or viable or if I'm not really sure. Feel free to chime in with your own feedback, that's what this thread is for!

    I'm far from a savant in this game, but I feel like I'm one of the stronger (read: only because nobody plays headless) headless players in the game right now. If there's one thing I'm good at in this game it's probably headless Fortune. So I feel like I can contribute to this topic.


    Beowulf


    I'm too unfamiliar with this matchup to say decisively one way or another. Honestly, I just prefer headless because zoom and nom seem like effective neutral tools. A lot of headless Fortune's resets are very effective on Beowulf because of how big he is.

    The one advantage I can think on for head on in this matchup is that you can get full combos off of throw with LK Fiber, similar to how you would on Big Band.

    Obviously you have to be wary of eating damage from stray 120 Inch Pythons, but the way Beowulf's combos work you're actually not eating that much extra head damage, since the head isn't taking damage from his command grabs and that's a huge part of his comb routes.

    Big Band

    Headless is either good for headless or bad for Big Band depending on who you ask. Honestly, Fortune's Big Band specific loops are so damaging I think that you should just always play head on. The counterhit Big Band specific punish you get for blocking Beat Extend or SSJ is basically a dead character if you have a DHC available, so it's hard to argue using headless in my opinion.


    In addition, unlike Eliza and Double, headless Fortune does not have a good big character specific combo on Big Band. You can make loop HK El Gato combos work, but the timing is awkward and you get way less damage.


    Cerebella

    Headless is far and wide the way to go against Cerebella in my opinion. First off, your s.MK, c.HK (1 hit) j.MP ADC j.MP setup will beat dynamo. Even if they block it, it's a great anti reversal setup. Better yet, off of nom, j.LP ADC back j.HK buffer nom actually beats every single reversal option Cerebella has.

    In neutral, it's difficult for Cerebella to deal with the vectors the head controls. Zoom is good, nom is good, sneeze is good, headroll is a good reversal against a lot of her pressure….I just prefer headless overall. It's also hard for Cerebella to deal with you launching the head at her off of s.HK/Fiber. She can't really dynamo it since the head would hit her before you do.

    Double

    Either. I play headless in this matchup, but a lot of headless resets will lose to double mashing car, meaning you should go for burst baits to keep her from pressing buttons. One that I think is useful is headbutt, IAD j.LK, ground string, jump back j.LK ADC j.LK j.MK. If they burst you get a combo, if they don't you get another mixup. It's an obvious burst bait most players won't fall for, but it keeps them from mashing car for a second which is what you want.

    Headless also has a Double specific combo that does pretty good damage. You can do loops on double off of c.HK xx LK Fiber that are better than the combos headless Fortune can do to Big Band

    Eliza

    An argument can be made either way. HK Fiber Upper is fantastic at keeping Eliza honest, so if you don't run a DP assist I'd stay head on. Regardless if you do or not, sandwich pressure is very effective against Eliza, headless Fortune has good Eliza specific combos, and nom is a great tool to deal with Sekmeht when snapping is not an option. Sneeze also works very well on Eliza as a reversal and pressure tool in a variety of situations.

    Filia

    Either. Filia is considered by some to be a bad matchup for Fortune, but in either case your s.LP is your go to anti-air and not Fiber, so giving up Fiber isn't hurting you that much. The s.HK xx LK Fiber j.MP ADC j.MP xx MK El Gato/air throw setup is SUPER good against Filia. So it just comes down to preference.

    Fortune

    It's a mirror match that's a 5/5 either way, so do whatever you want. Headless mirrors may be the dumbest thing in the entire game.


    Fukua

    The only zoning matchup that I like headless Fortune in. Zoom keeps her in check when she's landing from her fireball zoning, and you're using your run and double jump to get around her zoning rather than airdashes, so losing the better airdash doesn't matter much.


    Painwheel

    DO. NOT. PLAY. HEADLESS.

    If Painwheel hits you while you're head off, you die. You NEED HK Fiber Upper in this matchup. End of discussion. If there's a single matchup in the game you should never play headless, it's this one.

    Parasoul

    Headless all the way. First off, slide is amazing and low profiles and hits Parasoul out of more or less everything she does. If you're playing this character properly and the head is BEHIND them, that means any slide is now a combo. Slide is also a great reversal. Parasoul has trouble dealing with zoom and sandwich pressure. If that wasn't enough for you, s.MK xx c.HK (1 hit) j.MP ADC j.MP is an anti reversal setup against Pillar that either stuffs it entirely or lets you land and punish it depending on the timing. You can also use your double jumps and headbutt to dance around pillar and punish her as soon as she does it. This might be headless's single best matchup in the entire game.


    Peacock

    Head on. In days long past, headless used to be strong against Peacock. Not anymore. I'm stubborn and STILL try to make headless work in this matchup but you really shouldn't. It's not worth it. Head on has better mobility, headless can't really deal with projectiles in any meaningful way.



    Robo Fortune

    Head on. Headless struggles with Robo's zoning just as much as Peacock. HK Fiber is great against Robo. IAD j.HP and IAD j.LK are great against Robo who lacks real reversal/anti-airs outside of magnet super. The matchup is in your favor with the head on, and not in your favor with the head off. Pretty easy decision.



    Squiggly

    Headless. Either way it's a bad matchup for Squiggly, but Squiggly can't really deal with zoom or sneeze very well. She likes to double jump, your air buttons are better than hers (a rarity) and she struggles to deal with things like air throw/j.MP burst bait 50/50s because of her lack of an air reversal. Another matchup strongly in headless's favor



    Valentine

    Either head on or headless is good. This is generally considered to be a matchup in Fortune's favor, so regardless of how you play it it will probably work out well for you. There's not really anything headless does that specifically head on can't do, it all comes down to preference.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
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  2. Triblue

    Triblue Active Member

    Steam:
    jujubemaster
    Painwheel
    Ms. Fortune
    Double
    You said Fukua was a mirror match instead of Ms. Fortune. How do you feel about Fukua?
    By the way, what assists does headless like?
     
  3. Dolfy

    Dolfy Actually is Blazblue Events Mod

    Who said this? I think Fortune has an advantage against Filia.
     
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  4. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

    Location:
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Steam:
    fullbleed
    PSN:
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    Ms. Fortune
    Big Band
    Khaosmuffins like 2 years ago. I like Fortune over Filia too.

    Thanks, just fixed it and wrote my thoughts on Fukua in the OP.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
  5. Pickles

    Pickles VT scene?

    Location:
    Vermont
    Steam:
    Pickles (/id/shamanlord)
    PSN:
    PS_Shamanlord (but I rarely use this for SG)
    Filia
    Double
    Unknown
    as a filia player i can confirm 2 things:

    -fortune has advantage vs filia
    -if fortune takes her head off and filia touches her fortune is dead, IMO you want fiber in this MU almost as much as you do vs PW. I also don't think the head really cuts off filia's options (in neutral) quite as much as it does vs other chars.
     
  6. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

    Location:
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Steam:
    fullbleed
    PSN:
    nFuLLBLeeD
    Ms. Fortune
    Big Band
    You probably have a point here. I like to take off my head when I land a hit or have the opponent in the corner regardless of what character I'm fighting though, and I never felt as scared of doing that against Filia as I do against Peacock or Painwheel if the opponent manages to get out of the corner/blender.
     
  7. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    Explain your reasoning.

    squig's j.lk is something i wouldn't even dare to contest if you're in a A2A. so my only conclusion is that you meant when you're above her.
     
  8. Triblue

    Triblue Active Member

    Steam:
    jujubemaster
    Painwheel
    Ms. Fortune
    Double
    Squigly may have a great j.lk, but that seems to be it. Ms. Fortune has more air options. j.mp for instance is more disjointed. j.lk is also 8 frames startup and she has an air super, just to name a few.
     
  9. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    ok.

    J.mp from fortune=11f
    j.lk from squigly...the same j.lk that combos into itself the same j.lk that has good amounts of hitstun for A LIGHT is 8f

    Air super i do not get why you included that unless you mean as a way to reversal out of the air which still is not pertaining to the original topic. the original thing i was questioning was concerning air normals only, not supers.
     
  10. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

    Location:
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Steam:
    fullbleed
    PSN:
    nFuLLBLeeD
    Ms. Fortune
    Big Band
    I meant when you're above her. I also might be wrong about this, I made this thread to facilitate discussion and it is doing that! In general I still like headless vs Squiggly, even if your air buttons aren't necessarily better than hers.
     
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  11. cloudKing211

    cloudKing211 King of White Puffs

    Location:
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    Valentine
    Unknown
    Double
    Fortunes air buttons are fine against squigly, both head on and headoff. The main difference is squiggly can have an easier time converting off A2A due to hk divekick, axe kick is more height specific.
     
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  12. Triblue

    Triblue Active Member

    Steam:
    jujubemaster
    Painwheel
    Ms. Fortune
    Double
    I was talking about all air options in general, including super and air dash. I was also just trying to make a comparison to show that Ms. Fortune has her own prized j.lk similar to Squigly.
     
  13. Fizzxwizz

    Fizzxwizz lit News Writer

    Location:
    Arizona
    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/Fizzxwizz
    PSN:
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    Ms. Fortune
    Unknown
    opinions spoilered for the sake of space management. I spend most of my time as fortune with the head off so for most of these I just say headless is the preferred one.
    Show Spoiler

    beo
    - definitely play this matchup head on, contesting big chair normals isn't 100% even with h fiber since you gotta be pretty deep to not trade but I'd rather have it than not. IMO it mostly comes down to having access to more reversals in the event beo takes you to high/low city.

    You do have access to tools for beating his stuff with and without the head though, as cmp can be used against jhp (something caio has brought up) and jab is very good for punishing his stuff. Incidentally cat slide low profiles wulf blitzer when its traveling horizontally on the ground so maybe you can do that and punish with super I think?

    I feel like this matchup comes down more to playing head on until you feel forced to take the head off, at least as long as you have an assist to deal with the things you lose as headless.

    bb
    - Head on is much more safe to play against big band since you get the bb specific combo for big damage and you get to keep h fiber. Headless on the other hand has a much easier time shutting down any kind of reversal or fullscreen action that big band wants to do. On the other hand, messing up can mean eating ridiculous damage if he gets a ssj on you and your head, and if he does ssj out of fortune's strong headless corner pressure then you're stuck in the corner with your head, ready to get messed up.

    bella
    - yeah play headless, grounded gato will beat a lot of bella things like the ground throws and clk which is a button people like to press. just don't get caught by dynamo with your head nearby.

    double
    - play headless, it makes it harder for double to throw out lugers or do other things fullscreen. Headless does make it a little harder to deal with jhp though. Also if the double isn't keeping super great track of the head then you can sometimes get out of car for free when it gets stuck on the head, I have feel no sadness for double players when this happens.

    filia
    - probably headless, depends on how often you want to be able to mash I guess. Launching the head covers a lot of filia's approach methods but since you can hit the head out of decap attack now its not as good as it was before this.

    fortune
    -best mirror is headless mirror

    fukua
    -I don't like this matchup very much as headless. Fireballs and l shadow kinda prevent the head from doing things, I feel like you can only do head things when the fukua player lets you. Fukua also gets damage and meter when she's doing this so I'm not a huge fan. She can kinda force you to go in which isn't great.

    pw
    - yeah play headless whats the worst that could happen

    para
    - headless wins this so long as para isn't in or isn't trying to get in. If she's hitting you, you're minus your more free reversals and you have to deal with para's big swingy normals that hit the head and the body if they're near each other.

    peacock
    - I disagree and think headless is the way to go in this matchup. It's easier when you have a big assist to soak up projectiles and keep the head moving forward. You also have the ability to make it harder for peacock to escape with teleport by keeping the head behind you or wherever she'd want to go. Cat slide is also one of the tools you can use to low profile m bang.

    robo
    -headless for this one. Zoom and nom make it harder to throw out grounded beams and sneeze can clip a low air beam. I don't do this but its entirely possible that 1-hit cancel fiber is strong against robo, considering the hurtboxes on a lot of the air normals that robo's like to use.


    also just as an added thing I think having access to snapping the head is a tool that, while gimmicky, is pretty useful versus characters that like to do air normals far away from you like robo/squigly
     
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  14. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

    Location:
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Steam:
    fullbleed
    PSN:
    nFuLLBLeeD
    Ms. Fortune
    Big Band
    You probably feel headless works for you against Peacock because you run brass. Generally that matchup is not in her favor at all. I think it probably would be in her favor WITH brass though, since Peacock is forced to block brass and then head stuff letting you get in, so I should really just start running brass against Peacock.
     

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