I'll never understand how to learn from loss when I don't know what's right!

[exclamation]

Yeah, I can reel off a few decent combos, but my problem is getting there. No matter what I do (even a L Brass Knuckles) I get punished and die for it every game.

I know this is "gitgud" bait, but I really don't know what to say. I've grinded out 50 games online in the last 3 hours and I won two of them. I don't mind losing, but when it's a mountain-slide off the side of something much taller than your average hill, that is when I start getting angry (and, yes, to the point, where I set my controller down and walk away from the computer until the other player has won).

What do I do?!

I do plan to record games tomorrow and put them up on YouTube because I can't put into words what I am doing; I don't know what I am doing!

 

[Arcana]

if you plan on putting you stuff on youtube you should pay attention to when the combo counter restarts and pay attention for the "reset" and then think what you should have done. Watching your own videos is helpful because you can see where you messed up and other viewers can see your errors as well. and then when replay channel training mode is up it will be even easier to learn from mistakes~

 

[Nap1400]

Well that's what we have replay functions for now! You can look at a match and analyze your mistakes so you can see what exactly you need to improve on. Of course, it could help if we could see them so we can give an outside analysis, but it's also good to see if you yourself can pick out the mistakes.

And I apologize for sounding condescending like this, but never controller-drop, that's disrespectful to the opponent and just makes you look like a jerk. We've kinda had this discussion on this forum before and it just led to poop-flinging on all sides.

 

[Cellsai]

If you happen to be playing against the same guy over and over and over, chances are he'll be punishing you in the exact same way over and over. An opponent that favors Peacock and just spends the match item dropping and Argusing will have a pattern. You need to figure out what it is.

What you need to do is attack as you normally, and make a very clear note of what he did. Once you know what he did you need to think, "What can I do that will beat that?". Once you have a few ideas, try them out. Check which responses work against what that opponent is continuously doing and integrate them into your game plan. As time goes on you'll get better and faster at analyzing situations and figuring out what option you need to be using in a given situation.

You can do all this in a match, or you can record yourself and watch the replays, then apply your strategies in the next battle.

Obviously, despite what I just said, the opponent won't be attacking the exact same way over and over, but you will be able to spot his preferred punishes and strategies if you keep an eye out for them - it's up to you to analyze them and decide what to do next.

 

[Zidiane]

Well, it's a good idea to go into training mode and test out your moves on block to know what's really safe and what isn't. lp Brass is -6 on block, so it can be beat by anyone with a jab of 5 frames (Fortune and Filia have them, don't remember who else). You can also be beaten by several supers. Knowing whether or not your moves are leaving you open is a good thing, and can help you feel less helpless. After you know "Okay, I can do this move, and if they block it I'm safe" it gets a little easier to see why you're getting hit.

Another thing that's helpful is understanding that there are 3 reasons you can get hit in a fighting game. You can get hit because you hit a button when you shouldn't have (using a move that's unsafe on block, hitting a button and getting counter hit, getting baited), you can get hit because you didn't hit a button when you should have (getting grabbed, getting hit by a reset that you could have reversal'd), and you can get hit because you didn't know how to properly defend (assuming you are playing a game that lets you properly defend). I try to pinpoint which of these was the case whenever I get hit. It helps to categorize it, because then you can isolate what's wrong (as opposed to "what the fuck how am I losing I'm hitting buttons but I'm not winning") and find out how to not get hit like that again.

The hard part, for me at least, isn't seeing problems, it's being flexible enough to fix them in real time during a match (I can't for the life of me stop Gliding, or getting reset low the 5th time after I realized they're going low every time, or stop jumping and doing last minute j.lk when I know they're doing Updo, or dash jumping face first into air grabs). As with all things, getting better takes practice, patience, and perseverance.

Edit: Also, I think there's a tiny bit of a misconception new players get when they hear "learn from a loss". I explained how that you have to learn mid match, but also understanding that it's up to you to learn from the loss is important. It's not like you get an experience screen after X-number of losses saying "LVL UP! +3 blocking, +2 spacing, +3 resets!", so simply losing doesn't mean you learned something. It's up to you to take what you went through from the game, your opponent, and most importantly yourself, and use that experience to improve your play.

 

[Krackatoa]

Speaking Defensively...

Solutions in freeform games like Skullgirls can be very obtuse, and might require more than just a single step back to find the solution. This is different from games like Street Fighter. Blocking correctly, followed by pushblocking correctly is sometimes the ONLY answer to a situation, and it will only give you just enough time to immediately act, not enough time to go back to the neutral game (This means making an immediate read on your opponent's continued approach). I can think of a few situations where, as I play a team with not-so-good reversal options, that the answer to a situation is a multi-layered cake of steps, and it's different based on the character's toolset and assist choices.

Speaking Offensively...

Opening a player up involves you thinking critically about player reactions, player habits and whether or not your offense is actually scary. If you keep getting blocked when you do get in, then maybe you should throw, or find out your character's high/low/crossup/throw options when in close. If you keep getting pushblocked out, maybe you shouldn't be approaching with such heavy/slow attacks (Try multi-hits instead, like BB's j.LK). If you attack reactably, a player should be able to block every time.

"Low or Throw" is the first mixup you should explore, and how to convert off stray hits in neutral. This is the starting point for every character. If you can't do either of these yet, you'll find that your offensive/neutral gameplan expands as you explore these two concepts.

 

[exclamation]

if you plan on putting you stuff on youtube you should pay attention to when the combo counter restarts and pay attention for the "reset" and then think what you should have done. Watching your own videos is helpful because you can see where you messed up and other viewers can see your errors as well. and then when replay channel training mode is up it will be even easier to learn from mistakes~

This is a great idea, but the only problem is that I don't know what are mistakes and what's right. Other than that, I'm going to be doing that.

Well that's what we have replay functions for now! You can look at a match and analyze your mistakes so you can see what exactly you need to improve on. Of course, it could help if we could see them so we can give an outside analysis, but it's also good to see if you yourself can pick out the mistakes.

And I apologize for sounding condescending like this, but never controller-drop, that's disrespectful to the opponent and just makes you look like a jerk. We've kinda had this discussion on this forum before and it just led to poop-flinging on all sides.

I'm not playing the beta for now. Yeah, that's the plan.

LOL It is okay. I'm basically used to it at this point, but I am genuinely curious as to how it is disrespectful to the opponent.

If you happen to be playing against the same guy over and over and over, chances are he'll be punishing you in the exact same way over and over. An opponent that favors Peacock and just spends the match item dropping and Argusing will have a pattern. You need to figure out what it is.

What you need to do is attack as you normally, and make a very clear note of what he did. Once you know what he did you need to think, "What can I do that will beat that?". Once you have a few ideas, try them out. Check which responses work against what that opponent is continuously doing and integrate them into your game plan. As time goes on you'll get better and faster at analyzing situations and figuring out what option you need to be using in a given situation.

You can do all this in a match, or you can record yourself and watch the replays, then apply your strategies in the next battle.

Obviously, despite what I just said, the opponent won't be attacking the exact same way over and over, but you will be able to spot his preferred punishes and strategies if you keep an eye out for them - it's up to you to analyze them and decide what to do next.

At 1 A.M, there's the same six people on. I started picking up on a particular Squigly's pattern, but I didn't know how to counter it. I know what he did (overheads for days), though, so I am getting somewhere... slowly, but the ship has set sail.

Would be correct to say, however, that I will notice patterns in every character and adapt for every character?

Well, it's a good idea to go into training mode and test out your moves on block to know what's really safe and what isn't. lp Brass is -6 on block, so it can be beat by anyone with a jab of 5 frames (Fortune and Filia have them, don't remember who else). You can also be beaten by several supers. Knowing whether or not your moves are leaving you open is a good thing, and can help you feel less helpless. After you know "Okay, I can do this move, and if they block it I'm safe" it gets a little easier to see why you're getting hit.

Another thing that's helpful is understanding that there are 3 reasons you can get hit in a fighting game. You can get hit because you hit a button when you shouldn't have (using a move that's unsafe on block, hitting a button and getting counter hit, getting baited), you can get hit because you didn't hit a button when you should have (getting grabbed, getting hit by a reset that you could have reversal'd), and you can get hit because you didn't know how to properly defend (assuming you are playing a game that lets you properly defend). I try to pinpoint which of these was the case whenever I get hit. It helps to categorize it, because then you can isolate what's wrong (as opposed to "what the fuck how am I losing I'm hitting buttons but I'm not winning") and find out how to not get hit like that again.

The hard part, for me at least, isn't seeing problems, it's being flexible enough to fix them in real time during a match (I can't for the life of me stop Gliding, or getting reset low the 5th time after I realized they're going low every time, or stop jumping and doing last minute j.lk when I know they're doing Updo, or dash jumping face first into air grabs). As with all things, getting better takes practice, patience, and perseverance.

Edit: Also, I think there's a tiny bit of a misconception new players get when they hear "learn from a loss". I explained how that you have to learn mid match, but also understanding that it's up to you to learn from the loss is important. It's not like you get an experience screen after X-number of losses saying "LVL UP! +3 blocking, +2 spacing, +3 resets!", so simply losing doesn't mean you learned something. It's up to you to take what you went through from the game, your opponent, and most importantly yourself, and use that experience to improve your play.

Alright... is there a directory that has how neg. one goes on block in every matchup? I'd like to have it just in case, because approaching in this game is confusing as hell, and it isn't moving to them that is the pain (which I suppose is ironic, considering I play Big Band), it's attacking when I get there. I do get hit a lot and I don't know why for the entire game. I do know that I am going too fast into moves that are super unsafe on the block and effectively just going "all-in" on that.

I can fix the problems sometimes in real time, but I can't ever see the problem to start.

Yeah, that basically. I've played StarCraft 2 for about a year and we've a saying "more gg = more skill" that I never really understood because one has to know what they did wrong to actually get better.

Speaking Defensively...

Solutions in freeform games like Skullgirls can be very obtuse, and might require more than just a single step back to find the solution. This is different from games like Street Fighter. Blocking correctly, followed by pushblocking correctly is sometimes the ONLY answer to a situation, and it will only give you just enough time to immediately act, not enough time to go back to the neutral game (This means making an immediate read on your opponent's continued approach). I can think of a few situations where, as I play a team with not-so-good reversal options, that the answer to a situation is a multi-layered cake of steps, and it's different based on the character's toolset and assist choices.

Speaking Offensively...

Opening a player up involves you thinking critically about player reactions, player habits and whether or not your offense is actually scary. If you keep getting blocked when you do get in, then maybe you should throw, or find out your character's high/low/crossup/throw options when in close. If you keep getting pushblocked out, maybe you shouldn't be approaching with such heavy/slow attacks (Try multi-hits instead, like BB's j.LK). If you attack reactably, a player should be able to block every time.

"Low or Throw" is the first mixup you should explore, and how to convert off stray hits in neutral. This is the starting point for every character. If you can't do either of these yet, you'll find that your offensive/neutral gameplan expands as you explore these two concepts.

Defensively:
Certainly. Skullgirls, despite the fact I have very little time in it, is a game that is very complex on defense. I've never played any fighter that is 2D and uses classic six-button controls (in other words, I've played only 3D fighters or 2D fighters with their own control scheme). I have a hard time blocking let alone pushing, so I think I really need to start blocking, then pushing, then building solutions from there.

Offensively:
I'm still not sure what crossup means. I never get pushblocked out; I get blocked then get punished for 60%.

What's a mixup, exactly? Is it just going at them with different types of attacks (low, high, overhead, throw) hoping that they won't react fast enough/correctly so that you can start comboing?

 

[Arcana]

yes a mixup is essentially trying to catch you off gaurd by using a high or a low

Crossup is when you hop over the opponent forcing them to change which direction they are blocking as opposed to a cross under which is the same thing but going under them

 

[Dinglejet]

if you go into training mode and turn on advanced attack settings, you can see the frame data for moves, so theres that

 

[ClarenceMage]

I'm basically used to it at this point, but I am genuinely curious as to how it is disrespectful to the opponent.

Both you and your opponent have agreed to play a full match of skullgirls by readying up in the lobby. However, when you start losing and you controller drop, you are basically saying that you only agree to play the full match if the situation stays is in your favour. It is incredibly annoying to go into a game, expect to be playing a full one, then your opponent decides they don't want to play half way through because they don't like losing. It feels like a waste of time to the person on the other end. They didn't come online to play someone just for them to quit halfway through.

Anyway, how to learn from losses:

Basically, the #1 thing to learn from your losses is GAME KNOWLEDGE

A lot of people give the advice of "oh just look over and find your mistakes and don't do mistakes" but that doesn't make any sense when you don't even know what a crossup or a mixup is.

What you SHOULD be doing is putting research into the game, and trying to break it down to its most basic level. Keep it simple, and learn from the ground up, the most basic properties of the game. If you keep learning more about the game itself, then reasons why you lose will reveal themselves to you, because then you understand the mechanics of the game better.

 

[Flotilla]

To give you some more practical advice regarding gameplay, L Brass isn't always safe (or a good idea). Its frame advantage is -6, meaning that it's impossible for you to do blocked L Brass and have a frame advantage against your opponent unless you decide to SSJ afterwards (since most characters in SG have 6f jabs). From point blank it's unsafe against Fortune (since her jab is 5f). It's a good spacing tool since it has lots of reach, but you don't want to do it too closely because it'll give your opponent a free mixup.

Hope that helps! Also, uploading footage of yourself playing would be a great way for people to point out where you can improve. Better yet, playing those people.

 

[exclamation]

Both you and your opponent have agreed to play a full match of skullgirls by readying up in the lobby. However, when you start losing and you controller drop, you are basically saying that you only agree to play the full match if the situation stays is in your favour. It is incredibly annoying to go into a game, expect to be playing a full one, then your opponent decides they don't want to play half way through because they don't like losing. It feels like a waste of time to the person on the other end. They didn't come online to play someone just for them to quit halfway through.

Anyway, how to learn from losses:

Basically, the #1 thing to learn from your losses is GAME KNOWLEDGE

A lot of people give the advice of "oh just look over and find your mistakes and don't do mistakes" but that doesn't make any sense when you don't even know what a crossup or a mixup is.

What you SHOULD be doing is putting research into the game, and trying to break it down to its most basic level. Keep it simple, and learn from the ground up, the most basic properties of the game. If you keep learning more about the game itself, then reasons why you lose will reveal themselves to you, because then you understand the mechanics of the game better.

Ah... alright then, that makes sense.

I'm not too sure where to find all that information. I've been browsing /r/skullgirls for a few months and I just landed in Skullheart last night.

To give you some more practical advice regarding gameplay, L Brass isn't always safe (or a good idea). Its frame advantage is -6, meaning that it's impossible for you to do blocked L Brass and have a frame advantage against your opponent unless you decide to SSJ afterwards (since most characters in SG have 6f jabs). From point blank it's unsafe against Fortune (since her jab is 5f). It's a good spacing tool since it has lots of reach, but you don't want to do it too closely because it'll give your opponent a free mixup.

Hope that helps! Also, uploading footage of yourself playing would be a great way for people to point out where you can improve. Better yet, playing those people.

I learned that the hard way! But, yeah, I'm finding it is pretty much always unsafe to do outside of a combo.

I'm working on it. I have games, but I need to segue them nicely together in Vegas and put them up on YouTube.

 

[Zidiane]

Alright... is there a directory that has how neg. one goes on block in every matchup? I'd like to have it just in case, because approaching in this game is confusing as hell

You can go to the SRK Skullgirls Wiki and check each character's frame data. Looking at frame data can be confusing at first, but you'll get the hang of it.

Something simple you can actually do in game is go actually into training mode and turn on advanced attack data. Doing this will put a couple numbers at the bottom. For example, using lp brass on block, the button numbers say 16/-6. This means that the move starts in 16 frames, and the opponent can act 6 frames before you. On hit, it says 16/+5, which means that you get to move 5 frames before them. The more frames you have to act before them, the better.

Another thing you can do to see whether or not you can be punished is set a Dummy Recording. Record the dummy doing a jab, and have the dummy block and hold back. The dummy will do the move on the first possible frame, and if you can be punished you'll get hit, but if you block then you aren't punishable. Though it's important to know that many supers start faster than their jabs, and Big Band actually has the fastest super in the game, it starts in 2 frames, so if you're at least -2 then you aren't ever punishable.

I can fix the problems sometimes in real time, but I can't ever see the problem to start.

In any other genre of game I can make adjustments mid-match fairly easily, but doing this in fighting games feels much more difficult. It's never as simple as "I need to do X instead of Y", because there are several of those situations happening at once, and you opponent is making adaptions every time you make one. You'll see as you get better. Or maybe I'm just especially bad at this and every else finds it easy, idk.

Yeah, that basically. I've played StarCraft 2 for about a year and we've a saying "more gg = more skill" that I never really understood because one has to know what they did wrong to actually get better.

I mean, there's the fact that playing more matches WILL make you better eventually, but the reason you get better is not simply because you played the matches.

 

[Xephyr]

As a non-beginner player in my opinion, I can relate heavily. Against some of the more expert players I get absolutely thrashed and near-perfected depending on the player.
The one thing I take away from these matches is that "every decision I made in neutral and during combos was wrong." I chose the wrong time to use Tear Shot (I play Parasoul Point), I blocked the crossup mixup wrong, I guessed he would throw but he actually went low, I got out of the corner but I chose to jump at the wrong time and got clipped by an anti-air assist, and the list goes on. These matches, even for me, leave you demoralized because when you look back at it the only realization you come to is that "EVERYTHING YOU DID WAS WRONG AND YOU GOT BLOWN UP FOR IT."

The sad part to remedying this is of course knowing characters matchups and frame data and what resets to look out for, sure, but there in my opinion there's something deeper going on. In order to win in a fighting game you have to make correct decisions. People who can make more correct decisions the quickest have the advantage. If you have a solid and safe neutral going and can decide "I'm going to do this because this counters x y and z that he can do...Oh look it hit, I get a full combo," you're going to win more games. This knowledge comes from JUST PLAYING FIGHTING GAMES A LOT. The more you play, the more times you will find yourself in similar situations and eventually you'll learn how to analyze YOUR situation and the OPPONENT'S situation and make a correct decision in a matter of milliseconds.

This type of thing is what I refer to as "Playing the game at a different pace" than someone else. When I watch players such as Dekillsage or Elda Taluda or SonicFox ect. there comes a point in time where I'm like "Wow I would have gotten hit already, how the heck are the blocking all this stuff?" In my opinion most of it comes down to knowledge, but they are also thinking faster. There is a difference in my reaction time in Skullgirls compared to a better player than me. A better player can REALIZE FASTER when Filia is going to attempt a crossup Split Ends and their hand moves faster to block it correctly than mine does, that's why I get hit with so many mixups compared to the top players; my mind does not operate as fast in game.

TLDR: If you have all your tech mastered with your character the reason why players win more often than not is analyzing situations and making correct decisions based on this faster than you. I have experienced this first hand against top players and I too have felt like every button I pressed during those games was dead wrong. You just have to play fighting games more to build up better knowledge of situations and reaction time. You'll find yourself blocking more or using reversals at the best times, which is important in Skullgirls since it's a reset heavy game. The more resets you block or stuff, the more you'll be able to play the actual game and be able to make YOUR correct decisions.

 

[chal.nikkal]

I have very little time in it, is a game that is very complex on defense. I've never played any fighter that is 2D and uses classic six-button controls (in other words, I've played only 3D fighters or 2D fighters with their own control scheme). I have a hard time blocking let alone pushing, so I think I really need to start blocking, then pushing, then building solutions from there. ?


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[ClarenceMage]

Even though blocking is your last option, yes, blocking->pushblock is a good situation to build solutions from. Most of the time however, if you were forced to block to survive, it means that you have playing the Neutral Game incorrectly. Neutral Game is a situation where neither you nor opponent are at a clear advantage or disadvantage, usually when you're spaced further away from each other, or at mid-range. It is at these ranges you can also try to build solutions to your opponent's offense, and also solutions to your opponent's defense.