Discussion in 'Training Diaries' started by mcpeanuts, Jul 30, 2014.
you can even tag safely to double with missiles, its soo good
Everytime I try to tag with missiles I get thrown, lol, but I guess thats different for Double who's tag is super long.
Oh right, mine. I can give that a shot, thanks guys.
Dunno, didn't think to try it. At max stagger you're +24 after L Bang, not sure how long Robo's tag in animation is but if it's less than 24 this would work.
I raw tag to Double with sMK sHK x Magnet (No Hold) > Double Tag.
The no hold from manget after sHK really fucks with their gravity and slows them down mid air.
If I can tag to Double I think you can tag to Peacock.
I tried it from s.HK but I couldn't get them above the boxing glove when the tag happened. I feel like I tried every variation of that... tried not holding the magnet at all, holding it for a little while, holding it until they went past Robo and started coming back the other way, tried doing the Magnet immediately after s.HK, just before the wall splat, after the wallsplat. I even tried waiting for them to fall to the ground after the wallsplat and do OTG L Laser xx Magnet. I don't know man I was at this for like an hour and couldn't get anything to work.
Tried playing point Robo for like an hour and a half on my Tuesday stream this week.
...I dunno man. I like playing Double, and I've been playing Double for a long time, and I don't feel like switching teams. I could maybe put a lot of time into learning Robo and maybe it would work or I could just play the character I already know how to play who is still pretty good even after the nerfs. So I'll probably keep going with Double/Big Band/Peacock, possibly forever.
You're really cute thanks for playing me on my brazil connection please bait my PBGCs and go for air throw more after i block j.hp and i will never take a game off of you again thanks
Thanks. What's the best way to bait a PBGC? Is it just stagger pressure? Delay a button right before I think they're going to pushblock so they get backdash? Something else? You're cuter. Air throwing people after they block and pushblock in the air is something I need to get better at, I will practice that.
The best pushblock bait I've seen is chaining a light normal into a harder normal in a way that's extremely close but not a true blockstring. If you attempted to pushblock the LK you'd get tagged out of backdash. It was dumb.
So basically stagger pressure/frame trap, yeah
If you're trying to specifically deal with PBGCs you could just try to react to the pushblock animation and stop what you're doing.
Someone's predictable defense is as bad as predictable offense.
Pay attention to their pushblocking. From there you can crossup, walk forward then downback and go from there. The best thing after studying someone's neutral is studying their reactions post blocking. Anyone can do a mixup after getting a hit. But fine tuning the mindgames in your pressure is greatly valued at parts you would figured to be minimal
Every character in the game has a Light > Light chain that recovers just in time before they can PBGC jab / reversal. (Besides Parasoul of course hahaha! XD)
If you poke with that and they PBGC you'll bait.
If you see the early PB on your jab and you're still nearby, that's when their PBGC's will hit and that's when you need to stop, or decide to keep pushing buttons if your read is telling you they won't do it.
It kind of depends on the character sometimes and what options they have out of a PBGC. For example, this is one I do on peacock if I see they like to PBGC M Bang often.
I'm sure you can use something like hornet bomber assist as a meatshield to bait out a PBGC while your point character is blocking or something. Although you'd have to consider something like them doing PBGC with a super and your assist taking too much damage.
Parasoul can do sLKx2 and it's safe form Filia/Fortune jab as far as I've gotten. Never tested faster reversals (but then again, never tested all faster PBGC rerversals on other Light Chains anyways).
I know it's safe from jab but it loses to anything faster.
Dropping this in here so I don't forget... with this latest set of beta changes, I need to check if L bomber xx monster > Peacock tag > c.MP s.MK is a thing. This may or may not be easier/more optimal than trying to link a Peacock j.LP which is what I'm doing now.
edit: Reviewed my games with Mock from Xeno 2. This has been on my to do list for a while but I haven't had a chance to do it. Anyways a few things jumped out at me:
-I need to have a plan for what I'll do if Beat Extend assist hits. I have sort of just been improvising, which is fine in this game sometimes, but in general I think it's better to have a course of action in mind for what to do off a situation that comes up often. I'm honestly not sure how many resets I need to kill if I get the first hit with my assist, I've never really labbed it. I also want to figure out the same thing for j.HP (normal/CH/air to air) because that's another common starter. I can't do the exact same thing because the 3 hits of j.HP change the scaling, I probably need an extra reset or different resets or something.
-Need to get better at delayed techs for air grabs. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to do this for ground throws, but for air throws it seems practical. Literally every air grab Mock attempted hit me, so there's room for improvement here. I also want to get more in the habit of pressing a button when I upback, since there isn't really a reason not to. I should be able to either delay tech or stuff the throw attempt with a normal. (Sage told me to do this over a year ago, but I never did. But this time I will, I swear.)
-My Peacock hit confirms are real bad. They have been real bad for a long time but I had trouble reproducing the situations in training mode where I lost to PBGC in matches. Rewatching these games I am pretty sure now that c.LP s.MP c.MK is not safe. I want to figure out a practical 2 hit confirm I can do. s.LPx2 and c.LPx2 were a bit too hard for me the last time I tried it. Now that c.MP is buffed in beta, maybe I can use that. Additionally I want to work on M Gun confirms. M Gun by itself can be hard to punish from certain ranges, but M Gun xx Argus at point blank is free.
-Want to see if I can fastfall on reaction if I do Double j.HP and see that the opponent called their DP assist. (I THINK I may have already tried this and found that the assist still hits cause it trip guards you, but I can't remember).
Figured it out. I need 4 resets to kill if every reset starts with Beat Extend and also the first hit is Beat Extend. I should maybe figure out what it is when some hits are from the assist and some aren't, but I got distracted. Here's what distracted me:
What I used to do off the Deer setup was
c.HP xx Flesh Step + assist,
OTG c.LK s.HK,
j.LP j.MP/j.MK j.HP
then loop the setup. The issue is that this is 3 chains, so you can't loop it once you're at max undizzy, and it builds undizzy really fast. I figured something I can do instead, which is
c.HP xx Flesh Step + assist,
j.LK j.MK j.HP
This setup seems to work on every character as long as you adjust the timing (let lights drop further after the Beat Extend assist before you do the j.LK), and it ticks all my boxes for a good reset (ambiguous + air reset + can't double jump out of it + can't mash normals on the way down (although of course beating Fortune j.LP requires really tight timing)). You can also reset them slightly higher which gives you a 5 way mixup between same side > crossup / crossup > same side / same side > same side / crossup > crossup / air grab, but that one they can double jump out of. Worth keeping in mind for Parasoul and Beowulf I guess. Could be useful against Filia and Eliza but I need to test if they can air dash out. I could also use it if I know they used their double jump (I need to pay more attention to this in general).
A few thoughts after GUTS 4 and Revo:
-Sonic told me to do Double L Luger xx Monster against Big Band because it beats all his options from full screen. I've tried it a bit and based on the little I've used it I think he may be exaggerating its effectiveness, but as long as Double is the first to act it does beat Brass and Giant Step.
-Sonic also said if I go for a Double cross under and they air super, I can DP on reaction since air supers don't have hitstop (except for Painwheel's and Big Band's). I need to practice this because it's not instinctual to do it yet.
-In loser's finals of Revo, after ath switched to solo Filia and won game 3, I thought "I'll give it one more shot with my main order then switch to Brass". I gave it one more shot and it didn't work out so I went to character select and picked Peacock with L Bomb, then Big Band with H Brass, then was like "wait, what's the Double assist if I'm using Brass? Uh............. fuck it" then picked Beat Extend as the Big Band assist. So basically I could use a Brass team. Brass is real good against solos cause they can't counter call it which removes one of the assist's biggest weaknesses. I need to figure out what the other characters and assists are, though. Open to suggestions.
If nothing else I do think against duos the plan should be to play Peacock/Big Band/Double. I stand by anchor Peacock as a good strat vs trios because it gives you more chances if something goes wrong. The issue against duos is that because of their increased damage, the amount of time between "something has gone wrong" and "Double is dead" is shortened significantly, which makes my anchor Peacock strategy not as strong.
I remember you tried playing Fortune a while ago and Fortune with brass is obviously very strong (she also gives Peacock a DP assist as well, though converting off of H Fiber might be difficult).
Fortune (H Fiber)/Peacock (L Bomb)/Band (H Brass) would be a pretty good team. Fortune has a pretty great roundstart and once you land a hit you can corner carry into hard knockdown (either via CSF, H El Gato or j.HK burst bait) and then tag to Peacock for zoning. This then leaves you with a Fortune/Band shell which Fullbleed has shown to be quite strong. Peacock also provides Fortune with a safe DHC if you go for an air super and it gets blocked.
Eliza might also be a good choice as she is a decent anchor and H Spiral deals a tonne of chip and gives some good reset opportunities (though this would require you getting close). Butcher's blade would provide a wall to horizontal approaches as well as lockdown and since Peacock builds loads of meter it isn't too big of a problem.
There's also L bomber for Double's assist which provides a bit of lockdown and is invincible plus you wouldn't have to put much work into learning a new character.
You could also just go for Peacock/Brass duo. This might be a good idea vs solos especially as it would help mitigate their increased damage.
I guess I should at least try L Bomber. I sort of wrote it off as being too hard for Peacock to convert off, but I haven't put that much effort into it. Duo with Brass is something I was thinking too, that could be worth trying.
From my personal experience, Peacock/H Brass by itself isn't an easy combination to pull off, even vs solo. Big Band is so big that he can get tagged with launcher, people can sj over him, and once you call him you're stuck with Peacock having to run away or call bombs. Either you protect your band with your patterns and leave a gap afterwards, or you don't protect him and make sure they can't close the distance very much, so it's pretty hard to shut down the solo like you want.
It might work for you, I'm not saying not to try it, but I had a hard time when I was running it and I've been able to get around it with bella. We can play some at the next GU monthly if you want to test it out.
As for what team to run on your main team with brass, is the order the same as usual? I think l bomber/l bomb/h brass is a good combo. Point Double gets a free brass call after calling george in addition to a mixup (form short testing, looks like she gets to keep george if BB hits and go for a second brass setup backed by george), and you can make Double's setups a bit meaner (and also just calling brass and doing luger probably?). When Peacock comes in you have some added safety with l bomber when they get in close, and you can still pressure full screen. M bang+H brass also looks good, hits from half a screen away, it's a frame trap, and looks like m bang combos into h brass if you're close enough (m bang+h brass, lenny, argus doesn't use your otg, btw).
Yeah. Peacock/Brass isn't the end all, be all of Peacock playstyles I once thought it was. There's a reason I used to always break my patterns. It's gotten me out of some pinches, but honestly it seems best as a counter to other zoning teams. The main reason being that Brass takes to long to recover so i can call it again.I'm pretty sure you don't like Fillia, so you'll need a true anti air assist from somewhere else if you want to run it. Peacock and Fortune aren't that great of a team. It's too easy to slip past fiber upper. Fortune with George is annoying as shit tho. You might want to consider Beowulf if want to run brass. H chair would support both Band and Peacock really well. H spiral is also a pretty good wall. You won't have a reversal assist though and all 3 characters benefit from one.
IMO, when fighting solo I think it'd just be best to drop to a duo team. Peacock/assist of choice on point. Fillia actually can't approach Peacock too easily at round start. A forward J.lp will beat iad j.hp and a back j.mp will beat other fillia approaches. You even have your choice of calling an assist so they either hit Fillia or eat the hit before they reach you. A little practice and it's easy to beat Fillia with a lot of Peacock's buttons. Don't really commit to zoning until you're about 3/4 the screen. Closer than that and either a bomb or bang will typically beat Fillia's approaches. I kind of cut my teeth on the solo Peacock matchup vs Fillia. You have to play on your toes the whole time, but if you do, counter hits into combos or zoning patterns come your way pretty often.
This is harder than I thought it would be. The window to input a DP is smaller than I was expecting. It's the sort of window where if you mash you'll never get it. There's a specific timing to it, but it's different for every air super and there's no obvious visual indications as to where you're supposed to do your input, which is very frustrating. I figured it out for Fortune (press the button just as she pulls her feet back) but I don't know visual cues for the others yet, and since all I can do is trial and error it's taking a long time.
Feeling inspired by Heropon's performance in Skullbats top 8 last Sunday. I've been looking for a Brass team anyways and his team is just mine but in a different order with different assists (one of which is Brass), I kinda wanna give that a shot.
Time for the ol thread updaterino. I'm trying to focus on reversals and push block guard cancels (known in the community as PBGCs for short), because this is probably the weakest part of my game. I have known it's the weakest part of my game for a long time, but I get bored of trying to fix it and end up working on more setups (which is like the last thing I need). I'm going to try to make a more dedicated effort to fixing this.
For PBGCs the plan is to go through my stream matches and look for chances where I could have gotten a PBGC but didn't, then practice those situations later. I found 3 in my set with Outlaw Spike at the New Jersey Quarterly Rapport 3:
1. c.LP s.MP c.MK - pushblocked on the first hit, recovered before the c.MK hit. Did up forward out of blockstun like I always do.
2. (vs Big Band) instant j.LP j.HP j.HK ADC j.MP - I pushblocked the third hit then just kept blocking and eventually was opened up and died.
3. air to air j.MP (all 5 hits) - Not honestly sure if this one is unsafe but it's worth trying. Well, I know I left blockstun because what happened is Val landed, jumped again, and air threw me. Clearly I could Timpani there but I don't know if it would be a reaction or a read.
I'm also noticing a tendency where most of the time when I pushblock it's on the third hit of a string. I don't know if that's good or bad. I think bad because it means less chances to PBGC punish a bad blockstring. I suppose it's because I'm trying to hit pushblock when I think the hit is coming, and I'm consistently too slow. That's something I should try to improve on as well.
For reversals... I may have been mistaken about how these work for 5 years. I didn't think the game started tracking your inputs until the reversal window started, which is I think 4 frames? So if you're just sitting there pumping 236PP236PP236PP236PP, you hit the reversal window and maybe you get 236PP, or maybe you get 6PP23, or 36PP2, or PP236. It would depend on where the reversal buffer started, which depends on when you leave hitstun, which is a thing you do not know. Meaning that if you're mashing, you have only a 25% chance of actually getting SSJ (or whatever you're trying to do).
...at least that's how I've been explaining it to new players for 5 years, but I was explaining it to Tommer on the drive to Jersey, and he pretty flatly told me I was wrong about how it worked. That the reversal buffer is 4 frames (or maybe it was 3), but the game is tracking your inputs for something longer, maybe 15 frames. I don't understand how there can be a distinction there (what is "the reversal buffer" if not "the point where the game starts tracking your inputs") but he must be on to something because he gets mash super out of all dropped combos, which is something I have always struggled with.
I don't have a great idea of how I'll practice this, but I have a starting point. Going back to Outlaw Spike, there was a series in game 4 where he hit me with these 3 resets in a row:
j.HK, land > throw
c.LK > throw
s.LPx3 s.MPx2 > throw
In all 3 instances I knew the mixup would be either low or throw. I didn't know it would be throw all 3 times, but it doesn't really change the fact that I knew he would do something I could mash out of. Because I didn't know where he would do the throw, however, I didn't attempt to super. If Tommer is right, though, and I can input SSJ without knowing the exact reset point, then I should be able to super out of all 3 of these. So the plan is set up the dummy to do 3 throw resets of this sort at random (that all start with the same inputs obviously, or I'd be able to tell which one it is based on that), and practice trying to SSJ out of that. Maybe I'll try Beat Extending out of it if I'm feeling really spicy.
Following up on this post. I've spent some time lately playing Parasoul (L Shot)/Fortune (H Fiber)/Eliza (Butcher's Blade). The idea was just, throw Parasoul onto the front of team LazyDiablos (which I already sort of know how to play), there's not a lot more to it than that. It's a pretty fun team; Butcher's Blade gives Parasoul some fun stuff, and converting off H Fiber assist as Parasoul always feels very satisfying. I'm thinking this team isn't really optimal for what I'm trying to do, though. I'm specifically having trouble with POINT Fortune and POINT Parasoul, so those characters need to be in the front. If I really want to do this right I need at least two teams.
I also recently did a similar exercise as the one in the quoted post but for assists rather than point characters. I'll spare you the details but long story short a huge percentage of my tournament losses are to H Brass Knuckles. If learning how to play the point characters I struggle against is a worthwhile exercise, then learning how to play with the assists I struggle against is probably also worth doing. Plus I can do both at once which is pretty handy.
I'm tempted to make trios for my sub teams that fulfill my conditions, but I also feel like it would be bad to overthink it. The things I want to work on are point Parasoul, point Fortune, and Brass assist. If I add, say, Double to these teams, and Double and/or L Bomber assist ends up doing all the work, then I'm not really learning the things I'm trying to learn. For now the teams should probably just be Fortune/Brass and Parasoul/Brass.
Learn headless or I'll disown you as a friend, teammate, and person.
Or you can avoid that and do just fine... :)
# of headless fortune players in CB 2016 top 8: 0
wake up sheeple
Remember that some of your difficulty re: brass assist comes from the space it covers being the exact space you love/are comfortable playing in. I know you're hesitant to the idea of double jumps or movement options that lock out your assist calls but being comfortable with the space above it (and below it if you can low profile) will help you grow as a player. Parasoul challenges a similar space at j.lp(ish) range.
The context in which they call brass is extremely important. FuLLBLee D: waited for you to call beat extend or H bomber. ZeKnife's tendencies were different.
I've already talked w/ you about this but I think your losses against fortune (when not dealing with brass assist) have to do with either not trying to pushblock (vs FuLLBLee D:). I think it's important to show PBGC into keep blocking to test their response on how they close the distance. You can then make higher risk decisions based on the data you get from this. If after my first couple pushblocks I see you dashing back in with a button, you can bet your ass i'm going to PBGC next time. Bonus points if they also do this while calling an assist.
Another big help is re-thinking the discussion we had about mixup layers and context of mixups vs resets. Zeknife played almost the entirety of his WF set with you on a layer 1 thought process (He's going to upback so I will go low + he always reversals when he has 2 meter). Remember that your opponents tendencies as a mixup are not the same as their tendencies as a reset because the context in which you use them is very different. The only reset choices he had shown for most of that set were air throw and low- and you gave him little reason to switch.
Also please clean up your air to ground double j.hp confirms! Test this without sound, from different heights/spacings on different characters on different parts of the screen. But you know all this already.
and please hold me in your arms as you do :v
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