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Indivisible Gameplay Discussion

We should have an automated response for this, something mature, helpful and informative so that they can maybe reconsider and change their minds about it. Something like
PLAY THE FUCKING PROTOTYPE ITS FREE, DO YOU NOT LIKE FREE SHIT? I DO!
 
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I suppose if that guy can't be bothered to think rationally, he could just imagine the prototype as the first game in the series. Then the finished game would be its epic, more polished, jaw-droppingly gorgeous sequel.
 
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ArgonBern said:
Will characters get more combos a la VP in the final game or be like they are now? I mean like
Pressing neutral attackx3 does attack1a>attack2a>attack3a
and up attackx3 does attack1b>attack2b>attack3b
Etcetera
In VP they had only 3 attacks. You got 1-2-3 or 2-3-1 or 3-1-2 and that was all your choices for combos.
Doing what you just said, while leaving them 3 attacks, would be exactly like VP.
Doing what you just said, with 3 choices each, is 9 attack animations (plus at least one super). I highly doubt we'll do that because that is 3x the work? For like 20-howevermany Incarnations. It remains to be seen, though.
Why do you ask?

In Indivisible, too, each attack has a different speed penalty associated with it, so doing Ux3 might be the most damage in one turn but you get your next bar back super slow. Doing varied combos is generally better.
 
I meant the second one, yes, and it was because I wanted to know if it would have changed in the finished game.

Are incarnations going to get any kind of magic (again, like in VP for mages) or something else for warriors lile tungar?

By the way I'm asking those things because I'm curious not because I want to see them in.
 
ArgonBern said:
I meant the second one, yes, and it was because I wanted to know if it would have changed in the finished game.
I mean, it might, we'll do whatever we can fit for everyone, but no guarantees. It'd give you stuff to unlock via leveling probably, just like more attacks (there's no reason to limit you to 3...)

ArgonBern said:
Are incarnations going to get any kind of magic (again, like in VP for mages) or something else for warriors lile tungar?
You....mean...like Razmi? Who has magic. And healing.
I'm confused as to what you're asking. Mages in VP are all exactly the same except for some stat differences. You put them all on Mystic Cross (or Shadow Servant because 2nd most damaging but much faster Great Magic cinematic) and leave them there.
Mages in Indivisible will all have unique magic per mage.

Or do you mean will we have a limited resource for extra stuff, like MP? Probably not, no. Not having that not only makes things less frustrating, but eliminates an entire class of item that's only useful for refilling that stat. Meter is for that, because we can do things that grant meter bonuses (start with extra, etc) or penalties (half the meter gain for an extra 30% attack power) or whatever.
 
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I know Ajna is going to have a hub world inside her own head that she can access at anytime. But I was wondering if it would be a good idea to restrict that ability during certain points in the game? To sorta give a stress effect on a player and to make things a bit more diverse. like while inside a more dangerous and risky labyrinth, or during a game changing event.
 
Since we're on the topic of magic: I've seen people ask whether special attacks are going to cut into a "cinematic" like here or largely stay the way they are in the prototype, any info on that?
 
You answered the questions I was trying to ask if you were wondering. Sorry if they were a bit vague.

u da best
 
Scar said:
I know Ajna is going to have a hub world inside her own head that she can access at anytime. But I was wondering if it would be a good idea to restrict that ability during certain points in the game? To sorta give a stress effect on a player and to make things a bit more diverse. like while inside a more dangerous and risky labyrinth, or during a game changing event.
I am curious why it is people seem to think we don't think of anything. :^P
Yes, it will be restricted when in "high stress" situations, and obviously not cutscenes etc.

infected melon said:
Since we're on the topic of magic: I've seen people ask whether special attacks are going to cut into a "cinematic" like here or largely stay the way they are in the prototype, any info on that?
I personally dislike cinematics. VP contributed a lot to that, as did FF7/SF4/Xrd/etc. They look cool once or twice, they take a huge amount of effort to make, and after those few views you really just want to skip them. Something over 50% of most fights in VP is watching the same cinematics over and over.
Wild ARMs 4 did amazingly with both all the critical attack animations and Yulie's summons, where there is an alternate "short" version if you skip it.
But at that point, as a developer, why waste time making a long one?
None of this means no cinematics, since it's not just my opinion that matters. But if it's up to me, creating something player are just going to want to skip means you should look for an alternate solution.

I'd rather do them like (non-cinematic) supers in fighting games: Some unique stuff happens but you can still attack with other characters in the meantime, and you are not locked out of doing anything else. I mean we can do backgrounds and effects and stuff, but the goal would be something you don't feel you're just waiting through again and again...which is why the supers in the prototype are the way they are, animation reuse notwithstanding.

To illustrate my point, Belenus' Finishing Strike
and Argrim's
These are 11-12 seconds long. They look cool as heck. Arngrim's feels pretty snazzy and Belenus' is very classy.
They are both EXCRUCIATING later on in the game.
Don't get me started on Nibelung Valesti III or Meteor Swarm. You end up using Meteor Swarm instead of Celestial Star even though it does less damage, just because it's faster.
Look how long this takes. Now imagine doing that full sequence multiple times per boss fight for the last 40% of the game.
 
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Worst case scenario; a skip button would be great for such animations.
 
Kawalorn said:
Worst case scenario; a skip button would be great for such animations.
hm, to me it seems like that's just adding work to remove previously added work, so I think that truly would be worst case scenario. If you put something in your game that people want and then also put something else in to skip the thing people want, that's just inefficient.

I mean, if you absolutely HAVE to have those cinematics a skip button would be justified, but I don't think Indivisible has to have them in the first place.
 
Not to mention how ridiculously expensive those animations would with Lab Zero quality sprite work. All those frames drawn for an attack everyone would get tired of and would just skip after seeing once or twice.
 
Mike_Z said:
Did you really just not read my post? :^(.

Woopsies. Sorry, sudden air pressure changes give the the dumbz, and we just had a wild weather change over here.

I did read the post more or less but my comprehension must have had been on a standby.
 
Prime example of wasting 20 seconds each time going back and forth hitting each other because it's the best move.

When you turn off animations, you simply punch each other in less than 30 frames and you don't see any of the work that went into the moves.

Razmi's 2A despite being a super powerful debuff, is short and fun to look at every time and I never want to skip it.
Same with all the moves in Indivisible.
 
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Does anyone have a recommended keyboard layout? I want to play the linux build a bit more but it won't recognize my 360 controller.
 
I use the numpad 8456 for the relative buttons, space for supers and 7 for all block
 
Vadsamoht said:
Does anyone have a recommended keyboard layout? I want to play the linux build a bit more but it won't recognize my 360 controller.
ZASXDC Enter F works for me, keep your left hand tilted a little.
Also hmm. Will other things?
 
I personaly go with WSADQE, Enter, \.

Pretty much the same as Mike's only it makes easier for my muscle memory to remember direction of characters thanks to playing shooters.

And just in case, I wanted select away from basic keys, since it doesn't seem to do anything important yet.
 
Vadsamoht said:
Does anyone have a recommended keyboard layout? I want to play the linux build a bit more but it won't recognize my 360 controller.
Is it a regular 360 controller or some disney clone controller or something? Because I might now the issue and arrrrgh.
 
I tend to go for ASDXQW, Enter for Pause and { for Select.

My problem with this layout was that i couldn't block with all 4 party members, so i just had to use the L1 block on full party attacks.
 
cybik said:
Is it a regular 360 controller or some disney clone controller or something? Because I might now the issue and arrrrgh.
(Sorry for the late reply) I replied on twitter, but for completeness it's a PDP wired controller.

@Mike_Z I know it's non-trivial, but would it be possible to make some sort of recommendation in the UI about what to map keyboard controls to? I could see a number of people making the same mistake of the first config I tried and trying to emulate a controller with some direct combination of WASD/Arrows/etc. I've seen several people say that they didn't find the gameplay as fun on keyboard, and it strikes my that unknowingly choosing a bad layout could be why.
 
Vadsamoht said:
Does anyone have a recommended keyboard layout? I want to play the linux build a bit more but it won't recognize my 360 controller.
WASD movement, <space>JKL or Numpad 0456 for B1-B4, ';' or Numpad '+' for specials (R1), and Shift for all-block (L1), though all-block is only important with this layout if your keyboard has horrid ghosting issues.
 
Vadsamoht said:
trying to emulate a controller with some direct combination of WASD/Arrows/etc. I've seen several people say that they didn't find the gameplay as fun on keyboard, and it strikes my that unknowingly choosing a bad layout could be why.
I emulated a controller by choosing ZSNES' default settings, which arrange the face buttons like they are on a controller. So...huh?
 
In case anybody was wondering:
6HcFlvt.png
 
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Vadsamoht said:
Does anyone have a recommended keyboard layout? I want to play the linux build a bit more but it won't recognize my 360 controller.
I only use keyboard and go with WSADQE, but I think you should just find what suits you the best by trying several layouts.



I finished the prototype this morning and I really liked it !

Before playing it, I was skeptical about the battle system. I was thinking that turn-based fights would have been better, just to have the time to elaborate strategies, but at the same time I would have been afraid this breaks the dynamism of the platform phases.
Finally, it was a good choice : I found the gameplay very intuitive and I really enjoyed the real-time battles, I would even say this reinforce the dynamism of the game.
 
I don't know where exactly to talk about this, but I read this from the recent Siliconera interview about the gameplay, and I really liked the idea at the end section:

We’ve been asked about team attacks a lot, and they’re something we’re considering. If we decide to add them, I always liked Wild Arms‘s method of doing affinities – more fights with those characters together increased the chance of learning a team attack until it was 100% – rather than say Chrono Trigger that just gives them to you for knowing the right combination of spells.


If we did them I would definitely like to experiment with them being like the combined magic in Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles, where timing was what gave you the combined spells, rather than choosing "do the combined attack" from a menu. I think that would fit particularly well with Indivisible’s action-oriented combat. So if you, say, did Zebei’s super and then input Razmi’s U during the superflash, she’d concentrate and Zebei then fires flaming arrows; or Ajna running up and helping Razmi slow the enemy for more than one turn, etc. It’d need experimentation so that you wouldn’t do it accidentally, but I think we could pull it off.

I really loved Crystal Chronicles method of spells which people rarely got to see since no one played the multiplayer. It allowed you access to powered up things you wouldn't have yourself if you really coordinated right. And putting in timing stuff like that imo would be a great system in Indiv.
 
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I can safely say that I can climb out of the pit with pretty no failures now and I was able to complete a certain thing on the first try after climbing out.
 
Oh my f* god... go out the boss pit is the most frustrating thing I do in years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Metafogos said:
Oh my f* god... go out the boss pit is the most frustrating thing I do in years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I see your life has been quite chill in years. :^)
 
Ryin said:
I see your life has been quite chill in years. :^)

Man......... I really really really hope no of this challenge type go to the finish game, or the other tools can make some this simple. No average player will be happy with something like this. To hard, need a lot of precisely hits, too much punishing... I already lost 2 hours doing this and not even go to the left side and my fingers are hurting... and I'm not an average player (not top too...)

EDIT: FINALLY... then I make to the left side, the task became less punishing and I made it after some tries...
 
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Completely optional side content that is there for people who can get to it shouldn't be allowed in the game? Why? There is no reason the entire game should have no challenge just because people don't feel like side content should have to be obtained through beating a challenge.

You don't need to get out of the pit, you don't need to beat the cat. The final game should have challenges like this, because they're challenges, but that's not saying you need to overcome them to beat the game, just like the prototype not requiring any of that to beat it.
 
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Metafogos said:
Man......... I really really really hope no of this challenge type go to the finish game
Pretty sure it's been stated more than once that this kind of thing will be in the final game. But only for completely optional bonus stuff like this or sequence breaking.
Besides, climbing that pit isn't too hard. Figuring out the exact positions you need to jump at is kinda hard the first time but you shouldn't take nearly as long to get out again.
 
Ryin said:
Pretty sure it's been stated more than once that this kind of thing will be in the final game. But only for completely optional bonus stuff like this or sequence breaking.
Besides, climbing that pit isn't too hard. Figuring out the exact positions you need to jump at is kinda hard the first time but you shouldn't take nearly as long to get out again.

Two hours... need a correct position to jump, a correct strength to horizontal move before hit the other side, a perfect time to use the axe (who has a slow start, so you need hit sometime before the time to hit the correct point) and you need do it 3 times (each one with a different times to do each move) in sequence with any (ANY) error you need start over. And a precisely jump to other side and a precisely hit with axe. The left part are more easy, because you don't need start all over if you make an error.

Is fine a game with challenge, but not need sooooooooooo hard. Can be less punishing (maybe the save game are helpful) or an intelligent use of the tools (we only had the axe in the demo... the others can make all this thing less punishing).
 
Metafogos said:
Is fine a game with challenge, but not need sooooooooooo hard. Can be less punishing (maybe the save game are helpful) or an intelligent use of the tools (we only had the axe in the demo... the others can make all this thing less punishing).
It's really not that hard. I only took about 25 minutes to get out the first time. And it's not true that you have to start over for any mistake in the right part. It's indeed less forgiving than the left part but depending on how you jump wrong you'll still land on a platform.
And yes, there will be parts in which you need mastery over a kind of mechanic (axe for this part) for you to be able to sequence break, for example. This is still nowhere as hard as bomb jumping in Super Metroid and can definitely still go harder for -optional stuff-. And we'll probably have things that are hard even with all the tools for secrets and stuff like that.
And it does need to be this hard. It's optional. If you don't want to do it, don't do it.
 
While I'm not going to move the posts, please remember gameplay discussion/discussion of the prototype go into their respective threads. This thread is for general discussion and things like the incarnation reveals.
 
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AdenPhoenix said:
Completely optional side content that is there for people who can get to it shouldn't be allowed in the game? Why? There is no reason the entire game should have no challenge just because people don't feel like side content should have to be obtained through beating a challenge.

You don't need to get out of the pit, you don't need to beat the cat. The final game should have challenges like this, because they're challenges, but that's not saying you need to overcome them to beat the game, just like the prototype not requiring any of that to beat it.

And NO... I'm not telling to the game not have challenges. I'm telling to the game has challenges who not need so hard. A lot of games prefer not putting some "all perfect moves challenge" in the main game and create a "challenge" mode. The "sequence break points" can be really challenge too. But make 100% (a common secondary objective in almost every metroidvania) cannot be this hard. I'm fine if this one is less punishing, and I can think others ways to do it with the others tools (the lance can minimize the punishing and can make some platforms to help some parts, per example). Can be hard? Yes! But make a average player lost 2 hours trying can be frustrating and make a player stop playing all the game.

(and each player has different fingers dexterity... I lost 2 hours, Ryin lost 25 minutes... but the challenge can be made to has different solutions, for different players).

EDIT: And sorry, Mod... stopping to talk about the mechanics....
 
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