Invocation: An amateur's idea for a game.

[Squire Grooktook]

I also don't plan on being a programmer, but one of the artists on the team. General concepts, possibly palette swaps, menus, smaller stuff so the animator(s) can get the real important stuff done. Knowing how to program is still by a far a very useful tool.

I prefer to be the programmer because that would allow me to have fine control over the gameplay in a lot of projects (obviously depends on who I'm working for, or how many other programmers there are). I suppose it depends on what part of the project is most interesting to you. If you care more about the story/art/music than I guess you might not be interested, but if gameplay is something you really want to reflect your unique vision than I highly recommend you reconsider and embrace programming.

Also by being in charge of programming, you'll probably end up as a better game designer, because as I mentioned before when you actually put things together you will have to learn how to compromise and solve tons of design problems that you would never have thought of imagining the game from a distance. Games are made by a continuous process of
test game > analyze test > improve game > test game > repeat for as long as it takes.

And as an actual response to your offer, I, again, don't plan on being the programmer here, and would prefer to keep that local to me, but those are some pretty impressive demos you have there :D

Oh, thank you. Let me know if you'd like to reconsider, shared credit for a project wouldn't be bad to have on a portfolio (not that I'll be there for a while).

This is good. Game Maker is a great starting program to help learn about making games, from design, to the art, to programming (it's okay to use the commands that Game Maker gives you.). And if you take notes and follow up on everything you do and see how you can improve and what makes a game fun and interesting and it's not broken, then you have a good stepping stone to becoming a person who can make a game.

Game Maker completely legit yo. Hotline Miami was made in it. Actually you have no idea how many top notch indie games on steam were made with pre-built engines.

 

[North888]

Some people have expressed interest in my composer's work. He only has 1 song complete for the game itself, but is tweaking some of his earlier works, which were mostly for fun, to try and use what he already has. You can find INFILTRATION, Liam Brycen's theme, [/url=https://soundcloud.com/xscalibur64/infiltration-by-xscalibur64]here[/url].

Additional news, given the feedback and some testing on my own, I have decided to learn to program. Given my own noviceness at suc, I am still looking for a programmer, and things kind of fell through at my community college, so I'll be looking elsewhere. I plan on assisting with small portions of the code itself to learn to code better, and to get familiar with the program, but I am far from skilled enough to actually program it myself. I am still planning on doing some art points for the game, but I still lack an animator(s). Still, it is progress, no?

Other news, I have some character to show later, drawn by me. It's mostly concepts of Helma and Abraham.

Finally, I'm planning on putting up some movesets later on! But to do so, I need to explain the core mechanics better! As Mike Z said earlier, I glossed over them in favor of the characters and their gimmicks. Here are some points of note:

• Everyone has 1 burst per ROUND. So in a 3 round match, that's 3 bursts.
• With the lowest damage character, it would take about 3-4 full length combos to KO, emphasizing resets.
• Combos are typically 9-12 hits (not including multy-hit attacks)
• I will try to conceptualize jump height, probably as a % of the visible screen
• Some characters have double jumps. In most cases, it is just a second jump, in the case of some, like Helma, it actually shoots you higher than the initial jump.
• Some characters have an air dash that they can do instead of a double ump, or with a double jump in some cases.
• Distance and height of jump/air dashes is relative to each characters.

With that out of the way, I'll be posting some move lists for Helma, Doodicus, and possibly Rhys later on. These will come with some data about their jumping and movement as well. I will be posting these to get opinions on the move lists, what I can tweak, and in general looking for pointers on how to build these move lists to fit the character, but also the fighting system I've outlined. Also, when I have time, I will edit the front page with this new information.

 

[Medici Mob Boss]

I am a fan of move lists...
Everyone is.

 

[North888]

Helma
Helma's Reverse Charge mechanic:
-Certain inputs have an HOLD effect, as detailed below. The way this works is fairly simple. It is like a Mega Man game, where pressing down on the button fires the buster or attack, but keeping it held has it fire THEN start charging up. Here, it throws out the specified attack, and then if held long enough, when you release it, the follow up attack happens. This can also be used on certain moves to delay the secondary input. All her holds follow the same number of frames of holding before releasing the button will throw out the attack. If you release the button during the animation, if you've held the button long enough, Helma will automatically follow up with the HOLD attack as soon as possible.
Helma's Play Style:
-A rush down with an easy-to-understand move set. She is meant to get in and stay in. She has multiple moves that close distance, moves that cover the corner, reads, and a large anti-air. Good startup character. Someone I was speaking to likened her to Painwheel in that she gets in and is hard to push her out if the player knows how to use her.
MOVE LIST:
[Command Moves:]
C.
-A close-range grab where Helma hits the foe with the lighter in her index finger, dealing small damage and then kicks them away a short distance, stunning but not knocking them over. Able to be combed out of.
-Cannot be comboed into.
[I'm not familiar with command grabs, so I don't know what a good input for it would be.
D. [HOLD]
-A launcher normal. Helma does the basic attack, a knee strike that moves her forward very slightly. It's kinda like Fukua's s.MK, which moves her forward ever so slight, except here it moves Helma forward a bit more than Fukua. Though it's frames are more like a heavy attack.
-Easily punishable, best comboed into.
-When held, Helma follows up the knee strike with a burst of fire from the flamethrower nozzle in the knee of the leg. This burst of flame has a slightly large hitbox, given the fire blooms out a bit, giving it some possible use should you miss the initial kick and not get immediately punished. The fire launches the foe into the air, being followable with a jump in similar fashion to Skullgirls launchers.
D. [HOLD] (Air)
-An aerial finisher. Helma puts both feet out in a kick. The animation is lot like Beowulf's air kick, where he extends both feet. Has about the same frames, too, though slightly less range. The attack creates a small bit of forward momentum with it, as well.
-When held, the nozzles on the bottom of her robotic feet both blast, loosing a quick jet of flame forward that has surprising range. The attack creates a large knockback on the opponent, quickly sending them towards the wall and ground. On Helma, it creates momentum away from the opponent, however.
[Sulfur in the Air]
A. [HOLD]
-Helma does a kick forward, extending her foot. This initial hit has fairly good knockback. Has average recovery, but most of that is canceled when the button is held.
-Holding it down after the initial kick will release a fairly long and straight jet of flame forward. It is weak damage-wise, but can hit up to 5 times if held down the maximum amount of times. It can nullify projectiles and useful against some rush attacks.
-It can juggle, but given its range, comboing off of it may not be possible, it's more for utility. I haven't decided about whether it can be comboed off, though it can certainly be comboed into and chained into specials.
[Fire Bait]
A. (In Air OK)
-Helma jumps back a small distance and then rockets forward using her fire to propel herself. More of a feint. Helma comes in a bit high over the ground, making it appear as if it may be a high hit, but in reality is low. It is due to the angle she throws herself at. Fairly similar to Slayer's Dandy Step, where he backsteps,
then dashes forward with a followup punch or kick depending on input (this wouldn't require a secondary input obviously) and Big Band's Brass Knuckles.
-On hit, has heavy hitstun and puts enemy into a knockdown that can be followed up on.
-Has a large amount of recovery on block, making it easily punishable.
-When used in the air, she launches herself at the ground, flipping around to land hard on her feet, hitting the area directly around her with a decent shockwave.
-Air has a wide hitbox around the landing area, making it a good followup to some of her aerials or as a jump in attack.
[Blast Trap]
B. [HOLD]
-A kick that looks a bit more like a stomp. Best when comboed into, but possessed fairly low startup and recovery otherwise.
-On hold, Helma creates a small burst of fire at the enemy's legs, throwing them down. Can followup with a juggle.
[Scorch Wheel]
B. (In Air OK)
-An anti-air move. Helma does a small standing flip up into the air, using her flamethrowers to create a ring of fire as she does so. Creates a very small jump.
-Decent startup, but easily punishable when blocked on ground, due to low jump height.
-Possesses large hitstun, but is harder to combo off of due to execution time vs. grouned opponents, and due t knockback against aerial enemies.
-on hit, there are two secondary inputs to follow up with. (Kind of like Ragna's Gauntlet Hades in design)
-Possesses slightly disjointed hitboxes for the fire, making it cover a large area, even around her on the ground.
[Scorch Wheel (Follow up)]
B.
-After hitting the ground again, Helma immediately launches herself back into the air at angle, catching the foe at the very end of the hitstun period with a powerful punch.
-Attack pushes the foe away a small bit in the air, but can be comboed off of to form a new combo, making her anti-deadly.
-On input, Helma hurtles herself at the ground, meaning that the input can be delayed a bit before she touches the ground, if necessary.
[After Burner]
Grab/C.
-Helma launches herself upwards a very short distance at a slight angle. If it catches the opponent mid-air, she grabs them, planting her feet into them and blasting them with fire and flipping off them as they are blasted into the ground for an untechable knockdown.
-Quick startup and decent priority make this more effective against jump ins than Scorch Wheel.
-Very similar to I-No's ground-air read attack, where she jumps a short distance forward and catches you in a midair grab if she hits you. This has about the same angle as that.
[Jet Kick]
D. [HOLD]
-A powerful short-range kick. Helma uses the knee nozzle to boost her kick, making it extra powerful.
-Heavy knockback and knockdown for enemy. Great for wall bounce and corner combos. Similar in knockback to Filia's s.HK
-Upon hit confirm for the initial hit, if button is held, she will blast with the nozzle on bottom of her foot on kick immediately, launching them a bit higher and farther, making it easier to get a wall bounce. However, it throws them into an untechable knockdown, so hitting the wall bounce is critical.

I feel she has room for a few more moves, particularly HOLD moves, but I can't think of any. Maybe she doesn't need any more moves. What you all think? Also, she's still missing specials, mostly cause I'm focusing on the base move list unless the specials play a heavy influence on the move list itself.

 

[Fedora_Ninja]

• Everyone has 1 burst per ROUND. So in a 3 round match, that's 3 bursts.

• With the lowest damage character, it would take about 3-4 full length combos to KO, emphasizing resets.

• Combos are typically 9-12 hits (not including multy-hit attacks)

• I will try to conceptualize jump height, probably as a % of the visible screen

• Some characters have double jumps. In most cases, it is just a second jump, in the case of some, like Helma, it actually shoots you higher than the initial jump.

• Some characters have an air dash that they can do instead of a double ump, or with a double jump in some cases.

• Distance and height of jump/air dashes is relative to each characters.

Your core mechanics are double jumps, air dashes, bursts, and short combos without a defined limiter?
You're gonna need to dig deeper than that. All of those are just fluff. That's what Mike meant by gimmicks. Four out of the seven points you made are describing character oriented mechanics. But what about the more basic things that make this a fighting game? What is the control scheme like? How many buttons are in this game? Is the core gameplay most orientated towards footsies and spacing, okizeme, resets, or high damage combos? Are you implementing air combos and juggles? How much emphasis do you have on air combos? What is the ideal percentage of damage for these short combos? If the lowest damage character needs 3 touches to kill, then the medium/highest damage characters need only 1-2 touches?

Edit: also are you using one button throws or two button throws?

You said you want to make a fast paced game that emphasizes on links. That's fine, Yatagarasu does that, but from what it sounds like, your fighting game influences are GG/BB/SG, which all have chains.

 

[Medici Mob Boss]

In all fairness fewer and fewer fighting games are integrating their own gimmicks, most are just becoming Street Fighter. Meaning Street Fighter's gimmicks are slowly becoming basic fighting game mechanics, just look at Soul Calibur 5 or Tekken 7 both of which are 3D fighters.

That being said, I find what makes a game appeal to me is what it does differently. And a cool story/art direction isn't enough for me to want to play it... just look at pictures and youtube videos.

 

[North888]

Obviously I need to do more research into terminology.
The emphasis is on quick, short confrontations with shorter combos that, at the highest amounts of hits, do a large chunk, usually 30-40% of HP bars.
There are 4 buttons for attacks, currently labeled A, B, C, and D. Game has a heavy focus on resets and does implements air combos and juggles, most characters focusing on the ground, but having some sort of air repertoire.
Moves have a certain amount of startup frames and a certain amount of recovery frames, though there are more here with higher recovery to promote shorter but effective combos. Many moves are designed to help or fill combos and counter the opponent. Each character will have tools to counter most things, but what they excel at and how effective those tools are depends on the character.

Also, I've updated the fronnt page. I will update it some more when I have more time. The game's pace should be a bit slower after thinking about it, since it has shorter combos and more tools to interrupt the opponent's setups.

EDIT: My biggest weakness is that while I love fighting games, and know what I want the game to feel and play like, I find it hard to put that into words with the terminology. Well, that and needing to learn to program...

 

[Senjin]

I would like to point out that this sentence here:

My biggest weakness is that while I love fighting games, and know what I want the game to feel and play like, I find it hard to put that into words with the terminology. Well, that and needing to learn to program...

Sounds an awful lot like what Mike was talking about here:

Anyone can say "I like this / I hate this".
- at this point you find most people who want to be game designers, they have passion but no understanding -

If you really want to make a fighting game, or any game, you need to get a better understanding of how games work at a fundamental level. Why does a character feel the way they do? What factors affect this? It's more than just sound and animation (though those are also very important), it's how the game is programmed. It's the relationship between the action of the player and the reaction of the images on the screen. When I push a button telling a character to jump, there's more going on behind the scenes than a simple line of code saying if[playerA presses button 1] than[characterA moves up]. It's the job of the programmer to connect what the player does to what the player sees.

(apologies for my awful, fake code T_T)

You say you know what you want your game to feel and play like, but don't know how to put it in words. Well, learning terminology and how to program is not going to magically fix this, it'll only give you (useful) tools. As others have said, you need to analyze other games and figure out how they play. Find games that have a similar feel to what you want yours to be and figure out how they do what they do on a fundamental level. Nitpick every detail, try and figure out every little thing that happens when you press a button (just 1 button), then try and imagine how you would go about recreating this (this is where having those tools is useful). Better yet, actually make a simple game to test out whatever action you're trying to figure out. Want to figure out how to make a character feel heavy when they jump? Look at what happens when Big Band jumps. Then, go into GameMaker (or whatever) and make a game that consists of nothing but 1 flat platform and 1 square. Assign a button to make the square jump up and see if you can recreate the feeling of weight by making the square move and up and down with the same timing as Big B (making it a big square will probably help too, though I'm not sure that's actually necessary).

If this process sounds really boring/not fun to you, then you might want to reconsider the whole "making a game" thing. Or at least the programming part.

I'm sure there other ways to approach learning these things, this is really just how I would approach it. I'm pretty confident that others would agree with me though (feel free to prove me wrong, everyone!)

Also, something I think is important that I didn't really see properly addressed is:

Why do you want to make this game?

From what you've said so far, you have a bunch of interesting concepts for a world, characters, and mechanics. That's awesome. But what is the actual reason for trying to turn all of that into a real, playable game? Just because? (I hope not this... for the sake of your sanity if nothing else) You seem to have no real programming skills, so you're not doing this because you enjoy making games/coding (you haven't made any, that I know of...). You have some knowledge and skill with art, but it seems like you're not too interested in being an artist, so you're probably not doing this because you like creating and drawing new characters. You have a sizable chunk of lore thought up, which again is awesome, but if what you really want to do is create a world and weave a story, then why not make a visual novel? Or a point and click adventure game? Or an RPG? Why a fighting game?

Now, you do have a fair bit of information on various "gimmicks" and mechanics described for the game, but nowhere do I see you say why you want those in your game. It's like you just grabbed of bunch of things that you like (or even just what you know about) and threw them together all willy nilly. You've said you want your game to play like SG/GG/BB, but why? Why don't you want it to play like Tekken, or King of Fighters, or Street Fighter, or Mortal Kombat, or Soul Caliber, or Smash Bros., or Killer Instinct, or Darkstalkers, etc.? Do you know how any of those games actually play (not just basics, but how they're played at a high level)? SG, GG, and BB have their similarities for sure, but they also have differences. Do you know what those are and how they change the dynamic/playstyle of the game?

Sooooooo yeah. How 'bout that wall o' text eh? (I'm so sorry T_T)

Alright, I've talked out my butt enough. I'll come clean, I'm a musician, not a programmer or a game developer. However, I have gone through similar phases like this where I'd think of an idea, and then go "I'm going to do a thing!". In fact, thus far I've done this dance with 1)making games 2)writing stories 3)making comics 4)making animations 5)DMing and 6)being an artist (I probably forgot a few but doesn't matter). The point is, I know what it's like to get super inspired and want to do something. I also know that following these ideas never leads to where you think it's going to. Anyways, hopefully you found at least some of this useful food for thought. I think I've written quite enough for now (and spent waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time trying to write it >_>) so... yeah. Those are my thoughts.

 

[North888]

I've always wanted to make a fighting game, but never really knew what I wanted it to be like. Even now, I have a bunch of characters and the mechanics lined up, but it still lacks definition and obviously hasn't even been programmed. I've been selling myself short, trying to be honest and up front, and the response was...well...What I should have imagined. I need experience. Let me tell you, this isn't the only forum I frequent, trying to get other's opinions and thoughts. It's all been massively helpful in improving my knowledge and skills.

The reason I want it to be a fighting game is fairly simple. My style. I could probably come up with something, be inspirted to do an RPG, but I don't have the subtlety or patience to allow things to unfold slowly and in the way most RPGs do. With fighting games, if they have a story, it's often to the point and more about the writing itself. As for the way I want the game to play, it's a personal feeling. I want that 2d fighter feel you get from BB/GG/SG, with the freedom of movement and reliance on combos, it's my preferred fighting game style. I can wrap my head around it, think it through, I understand, to a point, how it all feels. Something I still find myself stopping and thinking about is Parasoul's movement. It's weird, the whole step movement she has, and I think out how it works and all that. I don't want it to be 3D or based around very short strings of hits, with limited movement aside from some jumping and forward and back. I want that freedom of movement. I've had to think and play these games quite a bit, and have done just that. As for the character mechanics, those came from me thinking up characters, and THEN coming up with gimmicks, if I gave them any. I find it's easier to design such things if you have a concrete character to do it for

I was to the make this good, and am basically teaching myself to program so I can do this myself. I'm really just trying to rough out any details I can while I learn how to actually make the darned thing.

 

[Yomabuddy]

It might be a bad idea in retrospect, but have you messed around with MUGEN a bit? It's an open fighting game engine in which you can try to make your own game. Plus it's got a pretty good tutorial that teaches you how to code in it. I'm going through it and it's pretty fun so far. You should give it a shot. Plus since you're learning how a fighting game engine works, you can use that knowledge to other fighting games that help you understand why stuff works the way it does in other games.

 

[North888]

Yeah, I've been meaning to mess around in Mugen. Lot's of places I've been planning on messing around in. School has slowed me down, but I was gonna screw around in Game Maker, maybe make a simple game with the tools it has to get a better understanding, and then mess around in Mugen, maybe try to make Helma in the style I want, at least to get 1 character in the feel I want so I know what to do when I actually am able to create my engine.
However, I don't know whether I should use a pre-built engine or make my own. If I have to make my own, this is gonna take awhile. I still don't know which programming language to jump into. Any suggestions or links that could point me to an answer for that?

 

[North888]

So, I've been doing a ton of research recently, and working on own things. Basically, I think I've realized I'm not ready to actually make a fighting game yet...But I don't plan on trashing this entirely. I'm going to keep studying fighting games and their mechanics, jot down notes on ideas based on the character's movesets, come up with possible variants and combinations. All that jazz. As it stands now, however, I, even if I had a ton of help, would not be able to get this into a functioning project. I am going to work on creating games, going smaller, and always keep this game at the back of my head. I may have some character designs or things to flush out the world, but as far as mechanics and actual progress, I'm gonna be halting it until I figure out what I can actually do and what I'd actually need help on.

So thanks to everyone for all the great tips and tricks and videos you've posted here, they've been great. Perhaps I shot a little big, so instead, I'm making this the end goal, to get back to Invocation sometime this year after I've gotten some game making experience under my belt.

 

[Fedora_Ninja]

So you established that you want to use an A B C D control scheme. That's great, but what does that mean? For what intentions do each individual button serve? Melty Blood, BlazeBlue, and MVC3 and to an extent Guilty Gear use this control scheme, but each with different designs.

Melty Blood: light medium heavy and parry. Can reverse chain from C to A/B, and B to A.
Blazblue: light medium heavy and special character trait.
MvC3: light medium heavy and universal launcher/air combo ender/team aerial combo/team aerial counter
Guilty Gear: light punch light kick medium heavy universal overhead/sweep

And how do you plan to implement throws? Throws are a vital part of fighting games, and you'll notice that Mike only releases characters into beta after they have all their normals and throw/throw tech. There's the arcsys/MvC3 way (fwd+C) and the Melty Blood way (fwd A+D)

Game has a heavy focus on resets

Resets are a natural, organic part of fighting games. As the designer, it is not your job to enforce resets, but to encourage them if that is your focus on gameplay. Skullgirls does so through the undizzy/drama system, which draws inspiration from MVC2 undizzies, where characters spin out of a combo after being infinited too long.

I'm going to keep studying fighting games and their mechanics

Right now I'd say that your fighting game resume is pretty poor. Try branching out to other fighting games. KOF, VSAV, Melty Blood, MvC2, MvC3, 3rd Strike, Super Turbo HD remix, SF4, are all pretty good to try out. Try out new characters and try the breakdown why they have these normals, specials, and supers.

I am going to work on creating games

That's great. I remember Mike saying that Skullgirls was coded in C++, and if you wanna be a game developer that what you should learn cuz that's what's used in all consoles. And the most logical progression to fighting games is what I listed in my first post: a shit game on moving from point A to point B, a shit platformer, a shit beat 'em up, to a fighting game. Have fun with it though. You can make the platformer a series of puzzle levels or something. By the time you're a senior you can make one of these things your senior project.

 

[North888]

Important stuff

I've got KOF, though it runs like crap on my comp, I also have UltraSF4 and UMvC3. I shoud try to branch out past these. I've heard of Yatagarasu, but never hread of Melty Blood before, If I can pick that up on consoles, I might do that. But yeah, time to go play a bunch of older fighting games! I may have to pick up Mortal Kombat again, too. The more exposure, the better.

C++ was what I had in mind for learning to code. Currently, I'm fiddling around in Game Maker, trying to figure up from down...It's daunting when you have no idea what you're doing, but are willing to learn.

As for throws, I had envisioned using command throws. I'll have to look over BB and GG to see about that, it might be easier to have some universal throws instead.

As for the buttons, originally it was like BB, with Punch, Kick, Strike, and Install, then I made more like GG. Currently I'm thinking Punch Kick Heavy and then a universal button relating the character's trait. Like BB.

 

[MysteriousJ]

For your first language, I would recommend Game Maker Language. :)

 

[Fedora_Ninja]

Yatagarasu is amazing, but it's not released yet.
Melty Blood was never officially released in the US, but there are fan translated PC versions out there:
http://www.mediafire.com/?dv14o5xj572fn

Play this and think hard on why it's so fun.

As for throws, I had envisioned using command throws

So are you saying that no one has a regular grab and everyone has an untechable throw instead? You're basically saying that every character is a grappler.

Punch, Kick, Strike, and Install

what?

 

[North888]

For your first language, I would recommend Game Maker Language. :)

Well, I am screwing around Game Maker, so...

Yatagarasu is amazing, but it's not released yet.
Melty Blood was never officially released in the US, but there are fan translated PC versions out there:
http://www.mediafire.com/?dv14o5xj572fn

Play this and think hard on why it's so fun.


So are you saying that no one has a regular grab and everyone has an untechable throw instead? You're basically saying that every character is a grappler.


what?

I'm assuming just download all 4 files there.

As for throws, they were an aspect I never felt was too important except for punishing blockers. I've grown to realize, trying to learn to play Cerebella and Beowulf, that they ARE important for more than that, and am planning on transitioning that idea into a universal grab, probably a simple 2 button input like in many fighting games.

As for the buttons, for visualization, Punch is A, or on a default setup, using PS buttons, square, Kick is B, or X, Strike refers to universal heavy attacks and is C, or Triangle, and the last button, I have no name for currently, because Instal sounds dumb and makes no sense. It's a universal button that plays into the character's setups. Such as switching Winston's weapon form for Dooicus, or having Chargable normals for Helma.

Also, I'm polishing off my old spriting skils, and may take a crack at some character sprites, if at least to be able to create my own assets for the crap games I'm wetting my teeth on.

 

[Fedora_Ninja]

yeah. Download all files, extract the first one with 7zip. You can find out the netplay stuff in the Melty Blood thread.

and when explaining your controls, don't bother trying to compare to controller placement when the player should be able to customize he/her controls. It makes reading it confusing. Just explain what each button/action is intended to do.

 

[North888]

Oh, 7zip, didn't think of that.

Ok, fine, I was just giving defaults.
Punch and Kick are obvious. They are normal that use punches or kickes respectively and vary in many ways amongst each character. Strike is a general term for heavy attacks. Heavier attacks, though they still function as normal. The fourth, D, or whatever I'm going to call it, is essentially the special button. Similar to the button for triggering moves unique to characters in BB, this button, whatever you've mapped it to, works for doing moves associated with the character's mechanic or trait, if they have one. It also some basic normals that may, like in Helma's case, play into their specials.

 

[ElementFree]

stuff

Also I would like to recommend Fightcade if you don't have it already, It has a massive library of Fighting Games that you can play online through GGPO

 

[North888]

Also I would like to recommend Fightcade if you don't have it already, It has a massive library of Fighting Games that you can play online through GGPO

Geeze, so many people so quick to throw these links to great games. It brings a tear to my eye...OK then! I'm gonna go and do some research and work on a few things. Thanks guys! Of all the places I've promoted the idea, Skull Heart has definately been the most critical and most helpful. I really appreciate it all!

 

[Squire Grooktook]

The reason I want it to be a fighting game is fairly simple. My style. I could probably come up with something, be inspirted to do an RPG, but I don't have the subtlety or patience to allow things to unfold slowly and in the way most RPGs do. With fighting games, if they have a story, it's often to the point and more about the writing itself.

Are you thinking of Blazblue and Skullgirls by any chance? I don't think I've seen many fighting games besides the recent approach of visual novel + fighting mash up where "writing" was even a word worth mentioning in the same sentence :P

One thing I would also say though, is keep an open mind as to what this project could morph into. Maybe it won't work out as a fighter but could easily become a good action adventure? Keep an open mind.

As for the way I want the game to play, it's a personal feeling. I want that 2d fighter feel you get from BB/GG/SG, with the freedom of movement and reliance on combos, it's my preferred fighting game style. I can wrap my head around it, think it through, I understand, to a point, how it all feels. Something I still find myself stopping and thinking about is Parasoul's movement. It's weird, the whole step movement she has, and I think out how it works and all that. I don't want it to be 3D or based around very short strings of hits, with limited movement aside from some jumping and forward and back. I want that freedom of movement. I've had to think and play these games quite a bit, and have done just that. As for the character mechanics, those came from me thinking up characters, and THEN coming up with gimmicks, if I gave them any. I find it's easier to design such things if you have a concrete character to do it for

Okay, here's my personal advice: Play a bunch of "air dash fighters" (what you basically seem to like) with that emphasis on increased movement options on the ground and air, note what you like about their playstyles and what they don't have that you'd like to see. This might sound harsh, but I personally believe that if you can't find anything that you want that hasn't already been done, you should drop the whole idea. It's hard enough to even approach the level of some of these masterpieces, let alone marginally improve them. So just saying "I'm going to make a better Guilty Gear with my own skin of paint" is going to result in quitting when you realize that it takes years and years of work to get a game that's even half as good as Guilty Gear, let alone better.

However, I don't know whether I should use a pre-built engine or make my own. If I have to make my own, this is gonna take awhile. I still don't know which programming language to jump into. Any suggestions or links that could point me to an answer for that?

Relevant thread

Learn C++, and afterwards you'll have an easy time using C# for Unity or Xna or any other languages you might need.

Mugen is not a bad idea either.

a shit game on moving from point A to point B,

Honestly even if your new to a particular engine or language, you can make a mario style side scroller stage or two in a week or two at most if you're feeling it. I made a (bad) grappling hook and side scroller with a (bad) boss fight after a week with no help...during final weeks.

Play MVC2 and think hard on why it's so fun.

Fixed/

Keep in mind games are subjective and its okay to hate/love anything you like, just make sure you know why.

 

[WrestlerGuile]

If you want to learn about different character archetypes and different playstyles, then I recommend this,
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-archetypes-in-smash-bros.331574/

 

[North888]

Fightcade has been giving me some troubles getting to work, at least the ROMs, but the rest is pretty reliable.

Anyone got any good air dash fighters to try out? I've been playing MvC3 a bit again and played some BB again. Both have tons of great stuff, but I definitely see things I like and don't like, what I feel could be tweaked and whatnot. I'm not going for ace quality, not even going for amazing, I just want to make a fighting game based on what I like and think works. I'm not trying t make anything better than GG or BB, but I still want to make a good game.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

Fightcade has been giving me some troubles getting to work, at least the ROMs, but the rest is pretty reliable.

Do you have much experience with emulators? I've only had issues with a few specific roms on Fightcade myself.

Also do give mvc2 some time when you get a chance. Comparing Mvc2 to Mvc3 is like comparing the original Star Wars trilogy to the prequel trilogy.

 

[North888]

I loved MvC2 in this arcade at this resort I used to go on vacaton to a lot.

I was trying to get SF3rd strike to work. I'm not that great with emulators, no DX

MvC2 is what I should probaby try to get working next. I don't actually need the emulator to play said game, just fightcade? That's what it made it sound like. :/
God, I get modding and a lot of that stuff, but getting emulators to work is the bane of my existence.

 

[ElementFree]

I loved MvC2 in this arcade at this resort I used to go on vacaton to a lot.

I was trying to get SF3rd strike to work. I'm not that great with emulators, no DX

MvC2 is what I should probaby try to get working next. I don't actually need the emulator to play said game, just fightcade? That's what it made it sound like. :/
God, I get modding and a lot of that stuff, but getting emulators to work is the bane of my existence.

Fightcade uses specific roms to run, you need the exact roms to get it to run

 

[North888]

Fightcade uses specific roms to run, you need the exact roms to get it to run

Yeah, I C+Ped the exact name of the rom, this being SF 3rd strike, which I just remembered I can get on PSN anyways. I posted it, unzipped, in the game's ROM folder, and selected the ROM folder for Fightcade...Damit emulators are hard XD

I got Melty Blood working just fine, though. It's a blast. Definately different than what I'm used to, but it's been a good wake up call to what I thought made an air dash fighter what it is.

 

[ElementFree]

Yeah, I C+Ped the exact name of the rom, this being SF 3rd strike, which I just remembered I can get on PSN anyways. I posted it, unzipped, in the game's ROM folder, and selected the ROM folder for Fightcade...Damit emulators are hard XD

I got Melty Blood working just fine, though. It's a blast. Definately different than what I'm used to, but it's been a good wake up call to what I thought made an air dash fighter what it is.

You aren't supposed to unzip it, and the first few links on a google search don't work in fightcade, If you have any issues you can PM me.

 

[North888]

Ah, I got it working, thanks.

 

[Mike_Z]

Game has a heavy focus on resets and does implements air combos and juggles, most characters focusing on the ground, but having some sort of air repertoire.

This sentence is akin to "We're going to synergize our outlook with the customers' desires in a proactive and yet friendly way." i.e. meaningless.
Do you have ANY idea HOW to focus on resets, or why games that evolve to have resets being an important factor, do? Why MvC2 as resets as a core gameplay mechanic but XSF or MvC3 don't?
You don't aim for what you want the game to play like by forcing people to do just that thing (likesay MK tries to), you aim for tools and mechanics that will give the desired playstyle the biggest impact in the end.

You can't say "the game has a heavy focus on resets" because that's an organic evolution of the way the mechanics interact. There are certain things you can do to encourage resets, but if a normal combo does 40% with little effort, why bother resetting rather than finishing it and getting okizeme? (Sidenote, perhaps this is what you meant by resets, in which case you need to go do some more research.)

 

[North888]

This sentence is akin to "We're going to synergize our outlook with the customers' desires in a proactive and yet friendly way." i.e. meaningless.
Do you have ANY idea HOW to focus on resets, or why games that evolve to have resets being an important factor, do? Why MvC2 as resets as a core gameplay mechanic but XSF or MvC3 don't?
You don't aim for what you want the game to play like by forcing people to do just that thing (likesay MK tries to), you aim for tools and mechanics that will give the desired playstyle the biggest impact in the end.

You can't say "the game has a heavy focus on resets" because that's an organic evolution of the way the mechanics interact. There are certain things you can do to encourage resets, but if a normal combo does 40% with little effort, why bother resetting rather than finishing it and getting okizeme? (Sidenote, perhaps this is what you meant by resets, in which case you need to go do some more research.)

Yeah, I've realized my knowledge of terms and such is a bit lacking. I know what I want it to feel like and play like, but putting it into words without knowledge of all the terms for things I understand, but agian don't know the terms for, is difficult. It's why I've changed my focus to starting small and working ohter things while keeping htis idea in my back pocket to expand on later.

Basically, I want characters to function heavily unique from each other, in a way I'm finding is similar to games like Melty Blood, where there's universal presets to which buttons do what and how they kinda flow naturally, but what does what nd what combos nicely and works is varied despite the small movelists. Something kinda like that, but maybe with a little less...I don't know...Melty Blood has short and precise combos, and I don't really like em all that much, feel like I'm always screwing up. I want the game to flow so that combos can be fairly long, maybe 6-8 hits and feel acomplishing. How I go about that I still need to research. I don't think I want heavy influence on resets, given how resets can create moments that feel like infinites with no real control. I want combos to go, get dropped, or finish, and then the other player to be able to get back up and have a go at it. Unlike in game's like Skullgirls where a pro combo can basically crush all hopes of a comeback just because they know how to make a ridiculous chain or hits. I want to avoid that crushing feeling you get. What I want.....and what I don't know how to put into fully technical terms, is someting akin to an intermediate fighter. Medium length combos that do great damage, but not so much that you an't get back up and term it around with some skill...

I'm slowly beginning to understand the hole I'm jumping into, and I'm loving the challenge! I hope I'm up to it! But first, to finish my practice games, and practice crap 2 button fighter I'm gonna screw around with to understand hitboxes and all that junk. Best to jump into developement, when I actually make the engine maybe a year from now, prepared and understanding, yeah?

One of these days, I'm just gonna spend the whole day looking and memorizing fighting game terms, and find a way to play MvC2, they took it off PSN godammit!

 

[Fedora_Ninja]

Melty Blood has short and precise combos

Do you really research? At least try to look up high level play vids. They're everywhere on youtube.

Spoiler

This is the combo you could do with practically every character

This is the Ciel bnb I learned in 30 min. It has 1 link. 3 if you count the double jump and the throw after flip kick. Still not hard.

I want the game to flow so that combos can be fairly long, maybe 6-8 hits and feel acomplishing

6-8 hits is nothing. And if you factor in multihitting moves you can get there easy. In what way is "accomplishing" supposed to feel? That they could even be pulled off? Damage? or that it puts the opponent in a unfavorable position? Though even as a designer that's not a feeling that you can make all players feel. You can say that SG combos feel accomplishing, especially when they push beyond previous max damage combos, milk the kill, end in a sliding knockdown, or set up 50/50 resets. But players on the receiving end can complain all they want that they're too long, do too much damage, lead to "cheap" stuff and the like. Especially newbies.

I want combos to go, get dropped, or finish, and then the other player to be able to get back up and have a go at it.

Unrealistic. As soon as someone is in a combo, they are in the ultimate disadvantage and will continue to be in a disadvantage after the combo is done/dropped. Finishing a combo ideally ends in a knockdown, which sets up even more time for the other player to not play and eat a mixup. AKA the situation known as okizeme. It happens all the time in Guilty Gear. And if the combo is intentionally dropped, it's a reset and they're still in frame disadvantage. Your chances are the same in all fighting games: block the mixup, or use a reversal that beats the mixup. And then there's backdashing/rolling/some movement mechanic that has brief invincibility that's practically a reversal that isn't an attack.

game's like Skullgirls where a pro combo can basically crush all hopes of a comeback just because they know how to make a ridiculous chain or hits

a "pro combo" on average does 7.4k damage. That's roughly half health after reaching maximum drama and blowing off a lvl1 super. and no one finishes a "pro combo" cuz the pro-est of combos has so many reset points to keep the opponent guessing. At the same time all of these resets could equally eat a mashed super.


Overall it sounds like you're focusing on combos too much. They aren't the core element of fighting games. Also being unable to understand/correctly utilize fighting game terms when asking for feedback and essentially trying to "sell" a fighting game product is almost as good as being illiterate.

 

[North888]

I may just be focusing to much on combos, yes. And from wat Ive seen in Skullgirls, with assists you can wrack up massive damage streaks for up to half health before burst baiting and then performing a reset. I've had it happen to me. And yes, I need to research more, practice more. I haven't had a ton of time to get into everything...
*Sigh*
I need to chill. Before I go and say more stupid crap I need to get in and get good. Understand everything.
Also, when I say 6-8, I don't mean multi-hit, I mean 6 to 8 button presses, and that might be a bit low.

As far as Melty Blood goes, I find myself mashing C way to often and throwing a stupid super when it's unnecessary and wiffing throws like crazy. I need to get more precise.

I definately appreciate the critical feedback. It might feel a bit harsh now, but these points are making me rethink what I want, how I word it, and if I actually know what I want, which it appears I don't. Again, the entire thing is basically ont hiatus until I can program a dam fighter and begin experimenting with what I can do, what feels right, all of that.

 

[CaioLugon]

You should focus on actually getting good at a game, go to locals and tournaments and try to get good results, you're gonna miss way too much if you just have an outsider's perspective on fgs

 

[North888]

You should focus on actually getting good at a game, go to locals and tournaments and try to get good results, you're gonna miss way too much if you just have an outsider's perspective on fgs

Locals...I wish there WAS something close by that didn't involve driving way outta my way. Living in Iowa is tough, we've got very little going on in the way of tournies and stuff. Either way, I was thinking of taking a crack at some tournaments if I ever had time and one was close enough.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

Just play Skullgirls online obsessively till you can hang with some of the better people here.

 

[North888]

I shall try to do that provided my internet decides to stop being constantly crap during the day. Maybe I'll even start a training diary...

 

[Mike_Z]

Alrighty, real quick before I unwatch this thread.

@North888
I would put this more nicely, but this IS nicely: you do not know enough about fighting games to make one that is anything approaching balanced or mechanically sound.

You are conflating "the level at which I or my local scene plays a game" with "the highest level at which it is possible to play that game". Just because you can only do 6-hit combos in Melty doesn't mean that's all it is. (This is after almost a decade of revisions, too...previous iterations were much less strict, many had practical infinites, some of those infinites were just mashing crouching A, etc.) Also, most of the useful combos in Melty end in an airthrow, which gives untechable knockdown and okizeme setups, or they end in corner knockdown. It is heavily momentum-based at high level when you land a hit.

And you are also confusing number of hits, the newbie's metric of combo difficulty or intricacy, with damage, the designer's metric of relative character strength. Hits are completely irrelevant from a design standpoint. A 143-hit combo from Cable can kill you in MvC2, or a 6-hit combo from Juggernaut can kill you. And that 143-hit combo can be 3 moves (the same 40-plus-hit move 3 times), whereas the 6-hit combo from Juggernaut is also 3 moves. The only relevant parts are that both can kill you, as well as the resources and range required to land them.
An infinite in Melty wouldn't kill you, it runs out the clock; an infinite in XSF will kill you. A good combo in SG, those long ones you say "crush all hopes of a comeback", does a bit under half a lifebar worth of damage and costs at least 1 bar of meter for that and giving the opponent at least 1 bar in return; a good combo in MvC3 kills your character, while giving you more meter than you had when you started it.
There is a lot of depth you are unaware of, and thus ignoring.

You should go look up Beast's Fury and the current reception, or The Chainsaw Massacre kickstarter, they both tried to create games based on a knowledge base similar to yours.

 

[PKStoopKid]

Rookie mistake. They don't want reality injected in their fantasies. Blame Rynozilla, loonieboy and North888. {:^)


Don't do that. Go to college and major in Computer Science or Art or something that's a useful major outside of developing games, so that you can do something besides developing games if you don't make it in game development. Then develop games afterward if that's still what you want to do.
Pandemic would routinely throw out applications from Game Design majors that didn't attend Digipen or the Guildhall (even those were under close scrutiny), and woe be unto you if you went to ITT Tech or Full Sail.


You are better off hearing this now than later.
If you aren't an animator and you aren't a programmer and this is a small project, then what do you contribute?
Honestly the animator and programmer that you'd find would be better off making a game without you, and you are better off acquiring some useful skills other than "having ideas for a game".
Everybody wants to be a designer, because that's the fun bit with the ideas and the "I made this!" and none of the hours of bug fixing or changing all the trees in the courtyard to be slightly more green...but designers without any other practical skills are dead weight unless you're a giant game company and everyone has a specialized role - and sometimes even then. ESPECIALLY if you are an inexperienced designer, it's likely that either the programmer or artist will be better at the aspects of design you want to do than you are, simply because they have a programming or an art background and will be able to come up with likely problems as it relates to their area of expertise.

This is exactly what I needed to hear. I was conflicted with learning how to animate as opposed to hiring someone, but then what would I do. My god father always told me learn little bit of both so that your more expandable in the industry