Invocation: An amateur's idea for a game.

Discussion in 'Other Fighting Games' started by North888, Jan 27, 2015.

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  1. Squire Grooktook

    Squire Grooktook The wind blew all day long

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    I'll just throw this out there, but I would personally look into the sprites from Capcom (and others) cps2 era air dash fighters like Mvc, Darkstalkers, Ashura Buster (not capcom but similar art style) which aren't hella over-animated but have a nice variety of flashy moves, diverse body types and weapons for characters, and cool animations you could draw from.
     
  2. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    Thanks, that helps.

    I think I'll use some basic models for the initial characters, maybe even create some sticks or something. Lots of work ahead, but hopefully that just means I'll actually have something to present eventally to get shredded as usual
     
  3. Midiman

    Midiman Person, SG Player, Guy who likes cats Gameplay Mod

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    Yesss.

    This is how you get J-J to pay you the big bucks ya feel me?!?!
     
  4. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    Definitely re-use existing assets to get a feel for scripting. I started with Chun-li who turned into Zangief and threw Spiral's swords, and moved on to MvC2 style Hsien-ko (OH HOW I WISH THAT WAS A REAL THING) and MvC2+KI style Makoto.
     
  5. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    That art tutorial look really useful, thank you!

    I'm not quite there yet, XD. But good to know I'm actually on the right track with things.
     
  6. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    So I obviously have a few different forums I post updates on this project on (I do plan on having an official social media area up for this once I get something physical to show for it out of the MUGEN shop.), I believe I've mentioned this before. Now, I've been getting a bit of random flak on one of the forums I update this on due to not being more regular on the updates with this. I don't think this would be a problem here, but I'd like to point out if it wasn't obvious that:
    A) I'm not used to working in Mugen
    B) This is my passion project while in College
    C) I am a two man team with just a friend on music.
    So for any wondering, it will probably be awhile before I can get anything physical or even a progress report. Thanks for patience.
     
  7. Squire Grooktook

    Squire Grooktook The wind blew all day long

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    I'm used to following indie people who are slow as heck. Still waiting on an update for Nine-Tail after nearly 8 months since the last update lol.

    If you take any computer related courses while in college it'll probably help you out. Just keep in mind you'll still want to make use of the community and tutorials for whatever program you're using to make this game (mugen, in this case) as even with proper knowledge the program itself can be daunting if you don't know how it works.

    *edit* what do you know, there's a text update on Ninetail back in november. All these moon runes look alike to me lol. Apparently it says they're still at it, thankfully.
     
  8. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    That looks pretty cool. I have been making use of the community. I've just been slow. A mix of large end-of-the-year tests/projects and my own laziness. I just wanted to post that message to be clear I am alive, I'm just not really able to make much progress at the current time.

    Honestly, my motivation and drive to do this has been waning lately. I started this and plan on finishing it, but I may need to take a break to avoid burning myself out :(
     
  9. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    Got a new team member! An actual artist who will hlep with the graphics and character designs. So expect osmething physical within the next coupla months! We're working in the planning stages for everything and I'm currently working on my Java skills, which is what hte game is probably going to be programmed in initially. Currently creating the 'world bible' which I may share here if everyone's interested in spoilers. Have a few ideas for mechanics I'd like to run by all you here. Probably do that tomarrow.
     
  10. Fumako

    Fumako Jimbob

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    Glad to hear this ain't dead!
    When can we expect some concept art, at least
     
  11. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    Whenever I can get my slaves artist to finish them. Atm some issues going on with their tablet that need addressing. We have some rough stuff, but nothing worth showing quite yet. Sorry D:
     
  12. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    OK! As promised, things to go over while I finish writing lore and characters and everything.

    ATM, we have 14 candidates for playable characters. Currently working on 2 more possible characters. 6 of these form the most necessary cast and those 6 are included first on this list below. I will detail not lore or bios, but rather gameplay styles and mechanics if necessary.
    character list (open)

    -Helma Strast: Has a number of specials meant for countering and performing reads. Additionally, a large number of her specials and normals can be followed up by the press of a single, universal button that adds an extra attack or changes the properties of the attack if used early. Helma has multiple combo paths, giving her a ton of mixups in addition to her reads. Lacks forward mobility options and counters to projectiles.
    Gameplay Inspirations: Ragna (Blazblue), Rekka characters, Mai Shiranui (KoF)
    -Abraham Tyrus: Slow normals with a decent mixup. Hits hard and has armor on multiple moves. Has a command grab and uniquely possesses a 100% meter super that grants him armor on extra moves and reduced hitstun. This 100% meter super lasts the remainder of the match, including extra rounds.
    Gamplay Inspirations: Big Band (Skullgirls), Ferra Torr (Mortal Kombat), Potemkin (Guilty Gear), Azreal (Blazblue)
    -Shuja Kuro: A puppet character wielding a large, floating Ax. The ax acts as an extension of Kuro when next to him, but can be split off and attacks simultaneously with Kuro. The ax can be teleported to different portions of the screen and recalled to Kuro at will. Essentially has greater damage and range while wielding his ax, but also has decent crossups, baits, and other utility tools when the ax is separated from him.
    Gameplay Inspirations: Ms. Fortune (Skullgirls), Rosalina & Luma (Smash 4), Chaos (UNIEL), Morrigan's Darkness Illusion (Darkstalkers)
    -Tiganizo: Uses the powerful electricity coursing through him to fire arcs of lightning that draw foes in and create clumps of magnetically charged scrap. These projectiles are fairly weak, but he can use them to 'freeze' opponents and open them up for attack. Electricity gives a lot of him moves disjointed hitboxes but also greater area coverage in general.
    Gameplay Inspirations: Magneto (MvC), Carmine (UNIEL), Mitsuru (Persona 4 Arena)
    -Sarria: Possesses fairly mediocre normals. Has 3 projectile types, an energy ball, energy spike, and energy line. Each projectile has 3 differently colored variations. These 3 projectiles can be chained into each other fairly easily. The Energy Ball has a basic, quick moving shot, shot that hits low but is slow, and angled shot that hits overhead a decent distance across the screen (See Beowulf's Chair Throw). The Energy Spike appears at one of 3 intervals on the screen and, on hit, holds the opponent in place for a moment (See Filia's Ringlet Spire). The Energy Line travels forward for multiple hits (basically a weaker Skulltrain), travels forward a short distance and then loops back pulling an opponent towards Sarria, or flies in front of Sarria, swirling in a large circle in front of Sarria for a few moments. Only one version of each projectile can be on screen at any one time. Additionally, if the player chains too many projectiles consequitively, Sarria grows exhausted, preventing her from using her projectiles for a short period of time. It's all about knowing how to manage which projectiles you have on screen when and when to chain in normals or end a combo to keep from exhausting yourself. Supers are essentially EX projectiles.
    Gameplay Inspirations: Peackock (Skullgirls), Vatista (UNIEL)
    -Rhys: Uses HP to perform specials. Specials have great utility generally. Recovers spent HP and red HP upon hits with specials and supers. decent normals. Meant for more risk-reward gameplay. Wiffing specials removes Red HP and wastes spent HP.
    Gameplay Inspirations: Ragna Blood Kain (Blazblue)


    I will add the rest of the 8 later on and then eventually move this to the OP.

    Tell me what you all think of these characters :D
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
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  13. Fumako

    Fumako Jimbob

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    "Reece (formerly Rhys)"
    Boo, Rhys is better.
    Reece makes him seem like a backwater redneck.
    If he is, then sorry.
     
  14. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    XD, well maybe I will change his name back. Iunno, it's all up in the air :/

    I'm trying to keep unique characters but at the same not shoot TOO far for uniqueness and hit gimmicky (Fleur might be pushing it when I get to him.). I'm trying to get some decent archetypes in fighters but not oversaturate it. I dunno how many characters we'll be able to squeeze in, so a sizable list of possible characters is always nice.
     
  15. Armageddon11

    Armageddon11 :3

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    I'm liking the gameplay bios. In terms of archetypes you're missing, well, I dunno if any of the current listed characters are also planned to be charge characters? Though that's a minor one. I feel maybe a bigger archetype you're missing is, well, the biggest; the shotoclone beginner character. Or, at least, a well-rounded and easy to use character would probably be a good addition regardless of how much or little of a shotoclone they are.

    Also, I find it funny that UNIEL's Chaos is so low-tier you put a different UNIEL character as the ganeplay reference for your puppet character. Ice. Cold.
     
  16. Fedora_Ninja

    Fedora_Ninja Never asked for this.

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    How much of a buff are we talking here? Like armored normals and hyper-armored supers? And reduced hitstun is a bit much, especially when you can just armor through stuff. That's potentially denying bnbs for a super that the player has no risk in doing. Since the buff never goes away, there's practically no reason not to do it. Personally I think it would be better to Hakan it. Have potential to be the scariest character, but need setups to ensure he's scary.


    Huh? I'm really not seeing the correlation between Val and what you described. Val isn't very risk-reward heavy considering how safe she generally is. Sounds more like Blood Kain Ragna to me.
     
  17. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    That actually sounds like a good idea. I'm not familiar with Hakan, so I'll check into that. And yeah, the whole reducing hitstun thing I had more because it was in the early version of hte idea nad I just haven't put much thought into changes to him quite yet. Atm he has armored specials and supers, and the 100% super gives him armor on normals as well as additional armor above the 1 hit of armor most of his specials default with. I'll look into Hakan, it might be usefull.

    honestly...Rhys' was a copout XD. She's a nurse and uses medical tools to attack...he uses medical tools to attack...I couldn't think of anyone at the time with a gameplay style like his :/

    None of the characters on the possible roster I have here really do fit into that Shoto archetype, huh? Migt have to fix that.

    Well...Vatista...actually I put her when I meant to put Chaos. yay for typos >_<
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
  18. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    Majorly updated the OP with new characters, updated mechanics and lore. I will finish the updates tomarrow. 4 more characters to put in and a few gameplay mechanics to go over. Additionally will have some of early sketches of Helma that I'll place up tomarrow. It's really early, but its better tha nothing. But I'm too tired tonight D:
     
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  19. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    As promised, here's some early concept stuff from our character designer! It's being done by hand atm cause they need to get a new tablet, but I promised I'd show SOMETHING physical, so yes, we exist, yes, we're making something akin to progress :D

    It's helma, or part of her. It's obviously missing details and an actually female body, but this mostly just a draft of her robotic limbs.

    Anyway, yay, North does what he says he'll do for once.
     

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  20. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    Another update to the OP! This has another batch of characters, including the Final Boss, Ninetails! There may be one more possible character we're working on the idea for.

    Also, @Fumako Thank you very much for the character idea. I had to change quite a few things, but I tried to keep her as intact as I could, and I like how she turned out. Next update will most likely be a lore update as we try to get stuff done.

    Unfortunately, do to me working full time, my programming classes are going to be less frequent, meaning it's going to take me longer to learn and improve, I was hoping to have maybe even a mugen tech demo out before summer's end, but I can make no promises at this point, sorry.

    Also, I couldn't think of anyone that played like Maraj or Murasame, if anyone has any suggestions of who I can look at that sounds similar, Id be appreciated.
     
  21. Fumako

    Fumako Jimbob

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    I was thinking she played mainly like Yuzu from UNIEL but similar to Headless Fortune where spacing and positioning are important. Basically good sword positioning = good pressure, safe blockstrings, more damaging combos.
    Also, important thing, does this game have pushblock or something.
     
  22. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    I didn't even think of her! That is an opt comparison, even if their specials and overall mechanics are different. Thanks.

    Ah, crap, I completely forgot to mention this!

    Basically, this will NOT have a pushblock system. This isn't MvC or Skullgirls. I thought about having Pushblock, but decided that since assists and the variety and utility offered by said assists will not present in Invocation, a mechanic like Pushblocking would not be the most effective. From my experiments, it feels like a basic burst system is going to be imposed. My thought was everyone gets 2 bursts for 2 rounds, or basically you get 1 burst for each round you need to win. You can use as many of those bursts as you want during each round, but they don't reset between rounds, so if you use both during round 1 and you're in a bad situation in round 2, too bad. There'd be a cooldown between uses, obviously. That's about what I was thinking as far as that goes.

    I had an IDEA for a parry, but I haven't been able to test this. Basically, during each and every move, there is a certain period in said moves where they can parried. It may be a few frames, or it may be many frames. for example, most jabs are parriable in this sense the moment they become active, while some moves, in this example Helma's D knee is only parriable during the last few frames. The way this works is that if two attacks connect during their parriable periods of time, the attacks cancel out, and it acts like a throw tech; both players are pushed back a bit and returned to neutral. Doesn't apply for armored attacks, projectiles, command grabs, supers, and some specific specials. Basically, players can use this to interrupt an opponent's poke or reset with a move of their own, causing this parry. The catch is that if you mistime it, you still get beat out and eat a combo.

    So to repeat, to trigger a parry, a few criteria must be met:
    A: Both players must be using a parriable attack (meaning not armored, not a projectile, not a super, and a few specific specials.)
    B: These two attacks' active frames must connect with each other
    C: When the two attacks connect, both must be during the parriable window, which fluctuates depending on the move.

    Note that character's normals, while being unique, would have roughly the same parry window. Like all jabs would be parryable for the entirety of their active period (making them great for parrying), while most D attacks are only really parryable during the end of their active window, say, the last 3 or 4 frames (which might be a bit of an exageration)

    Like the Instant Flash idea, I'm throwing this parry system out there for debate to see what people think. I've thought quite a bit about this one, but feel it might be too complicated, if easier to implement and balance than Instant Flashes.

    tl;dr: North explains some stuff and comes up with another silly idea.

    EDIT: I'll add a much needed MECHANICS section to the OP, explaining the mechanics I have set in place. i.e. the burst system, button config, and other simple stuff. Should have done so earlier, but I thought it was already on there. Oops :/
     
  23. Fumako

    Fumako Jimbob

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    Basically... It's a clash that pushes your opponents back...
    If you're going to put in a parry just make it a regular parry.
    If not, just give everyone a DP so they can escape pressure unless it's baited.
     
  24. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    Yeah, it was a...fairly weak idea...I put it up for the purpose of discussion on whether the idea was good or not, but to no avail XD

    Anyways, MECHANICS section has been up for awhile. Stuff like Instant Flashes and my wonky idea for a clash system won't be on there. I'm keeping ideas like these solely for discussion and not for actual implementation.
     
  25. Fumako

    Fumako Jimbob

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    Any chances of players being able to spend meter to regain a burst?
    I mean, you can get a lot from meter and you're losing a lot for another burst.
     
  26. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    For the most part, games with bursts only give you one, and then you ahve to wait a long period of time to get your burst back. 90% of the time that's in the next match, and often not at the beginning.

    I'd consider it, if I wasn't planning on having meter scaling be fairly harsh. However, your point on the gain/loss does make sense. I'll consider it. Might need some more convincing, though.

    Everything is in the planning stage. If anyone has a suggestion of any kind, I'm open to it, and I want discussion like this, because it gets opinions and perspectives, often from people not only better, but more experienced than me, whcih I feel is imperitive to shaping this into a decent fighter.
     
  27. Fedora_Ninja

    Fedora_Ninja Never asked for this.

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    -So KOF/MK/Tekken/Yatagarasu inputs. K. But what's the hierarchy of priority when chaining them? P1 K1 P2 K2? or P1 P2 K1 K2?
    -What's the universal sweep? DF.K2? (Yatagarasu) B.K2? (MKX)
    -Better yet, just use LP, HP, LK, HK if you're naming 2 punches and 2 kicks in a 4 button fighter. An ABC combo system gives free reign on whether each character does a punch or a kick for each button and then the D button usually has a universal function. Melty=Parry, BB=unique drive attack, MVC3=universal launcher/TAC/air combo ender...
    -Just throwing it out there: Darkstalkers did pushblocking first, and it is HARD in that game.
     
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  28. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    Ok, sweet, things I'm actually partially prepared to answer :D

    So first point, priority is A-C-B-D. P1-K1-P2-K2. Again, some character's normals will chain uniquely, but for the most part it will follow that chain.

    Second point on the universal sweep. I had not yet considered what would be a universal sweep. Currently thinking it will be c.D (K2) I know a lot of fighters have some normals that involve a direction input plus attack button. In the case of those being added here (I want to keep things simple and just say everyone has 12 normals till me and the artist work that out and get actual stuff up) I will most likely make it Back+D (K2) ala MKX.

    Third Point: I may change it it as you suggested. I'm currently thinking of doing it at P1 P2 K1 K2, simple. Alternatively, for the second part about D having a unique effect, I built Helma with that in mind when thinking on her concept (all follow ups are universally mapped to D), I'm actually considering switiching to BB format of everyone's D button does unique moves to them and ABC are universal normals (obviously with differences per character, but you get my meaning). The original idea was to do it BB style, but I switch from that when I failed to think up "Drives" for everyone, but that isn't really an excuse. Not all the character's drive were necessary these big mechanics. In fact, Ragna's were basic Drive inputs, s.D and c.D were just heavy normals with the Drive effect tacked on. So I'll probably switch over to that input. However, until I do make that official, it will remain marked as ABCD for now. Thanks for point that out.

    Fourth Point: Did not know that. I havent been playing Darkstalkers all that long either, though. So I guess it makes sense that flew over my head.

    Thanks for the questions. Already noted some of these answers down for future updates.
     
  29. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    So some changes. Adopting a new control setup. For now its still ABCD, however I have thought of making it LMHU (light medium heavy unique), but that'd be pointless and less straightforward.

    So taking the Blazblue approach here, kinda. Each character has universal normals for A B C, relating to Light, Medium, and Heavy respectively. D is for normals and specials relating to the character's playstyle and mechanics. For the most part, D will also have normals, but they may range from Lights to Heavies depending on the character, similar to Blazblue. Additionally, all characters will have the following universal command normals:
    • DB+C: Universal Sweep
    • Fwrd+C: Universal Launcher
    • Back+B: Universal Overhead
    Additionally:
    • A+D: Universal Grab
    • A+B+C: Burst
    • B+C: Defense Mechanic*
    *Running through a number of ideas for a defense mechanic. Considering Push Blocks, Perfect Guards, Parries, and a mechanic based on GGXrd's Blitz Shield.

    OTHER IN PROGRESS NOTES:
    Considering altering current Burst Settings:
    Currently you get a burst for each round you have to win. Considering changing it to rounds needed to win +1. Additionally, considering Fumako's idea to spend meter for a burst. In that case, you'd spend 50% meter to burst. However, if both of these were in place, you'd have 3 bursts in the average game and be able to get up to 1-2 extra bursts, which may be pushing it. Will have to consider it once I'm actually able to get back into Mugen and continue tinkering with little practice builds and such.

    Again, I'm working on learning programming. However, I am using Mugen to suplement my lack of skill as a starting point to build the base game and few characters into. I'm tired, can I go to bed now?
     
  30. Fumako

    Fumako Jimbob

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    Won't this be a bit weirder than A+B or C+D?
    Of course I'm assuming that the layout is something like
    AC
    BD
    Just saying that A+D is very awkward for people who play on pad, like me.
     
  31. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    Nah, with the change to Blazblue style, so does the input flow, so:
    AB
    DC
    A+D in KoF style would be awkward, yeah XD
     
  32. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    Updated the front page with all the official thingies! :D

    I've recently been researching Zoning-type characters. I've learned that maybe the zoner I have planned, Sarria, may not be an effective zoner or just generally to convoluted. Most zoners seem to, instead of having chains of projectiles or anything like that, they have a 'pattern' or 'rhythm' to their projectiles, at least in the case of most classic across the screen zoners. Sarria instead is limited and cannot have more than 1 of each of her 3 projectile types on screen at once and is more about use said projectiles to create combos from near full screen, the only limiter being her Exhaustion, which exists essentially to prevent Sarria from just being able to keep players at full screen despite their efforts. I actually want some opinion on her in that regard. She is going to be one of the last of the main 7 (6 + Ninetails as a boss/playable version) that we work on, but I feel I should run the idea behind her over some people first before we get so far along and I have to commit to it. Currently on Helma, Tyrus, and Rhys are in production, and almost exclusively focusing on designing Helma and refining the exactness of her specials and combos, since she's more combo-oriented.

    Anyways, I need some opinions Sarria as a zoner type character. Does she work? Is she interesting? Impossible to balance? Does she even fit the archetype?
     
  33. Armageddon11

    Armageddon11 :3

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    I think she looks fine as a zoner. Energy Ball seems kinda like Fukua's fireball and high/low shadows combined, which will probably be powerful. I'm a little bit weary of character mechanics that are there purely to punish them, though.
     
  34. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

    Location:
    Iowa
    Steam:
    North888
    PSN:
    Clide444
    Fukua
    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Well the Exhaustion is more to emphasize combos or give use to her normals. The projectiles I was most worried about were her Energy Trails, since those were kinda like mini skull-trains. Basically I wanted a character who used zoning tools to not only zone, but perform combos. It's gonna be interesting setting up the recovery and startup to balance these, so tat they can combo but still have enough recovery on their own to serve as actual zoning tools. I don't know what I'll end up doing to balance it all out yet till I actually get to her, but the concept of it had me worried.
     
  35. Armageddon11

    Armageddon11 :3

    Location:
    UK
    PSN:
    Armageddon-_11
    Unknown
    Double
    Unknown
    What do you mean by skull-trains? Those multi-hitting projectiles that Bloody Marie summons?
     
  36. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

    Location:
    Iowa
    Steam:
    North888
    PSN:
    Clide444
    Fukua
    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Yes, as it is currently, Sarria has 3 projectile types with 3 variants on each projectile. She can only have 1 version of each projectile out at a time (thinking of removing this limiter in favor of limiting it via how the projectiles would chain and their recovery, etc.) She has an Energy Ball, Energy Spike, and an Energy Trail. In the bio, its worded "Energy Line," which is misleading. Originally it was an Energy Dragon, but someone on the team objected that the other two were fairly basic and the third being a Dragon clashed with the rest, so w/e. The Energy Trail's three variants are:
    • A: Trail travels forward a set distance, hitting multiple times. Similar to Bloody Marie's "Skull-Train" projectiles. Despite the size and multiple hits, will be canceled out by other projectiles.
    • B: Trail travels forward a short distance before doing a U-Turn back towards Sarria. Hits multiple times but has large recovery.
    • C: Trail curves upwards immediately and forms a sort of wheel in front of Sarria that hits multiple times, pulls opponent upwards, and pushed those hit away on the last hit.
    Thinking I might need to alter the C variant, or I could go with plan B and basically make her have a Melty Setup. Projectile version A, Projectile version B, and then Projectile version C is a Super that costs meter. I've already planned on implementing her D as being similar to Melty's charge button, but to recover her Exhaustion and cancel out of projectile recovery if the Exhaustion is low enough.

    I've put quite a bit of thought into the main 6 cast XD I obviously haven't fleshed out the exacts of damage or range or anything that would require me to put her in the game, but these are the things I'm considering altering in the plans wile its all still in the works.
     
  37. Yomabuddy

    Yomabuddy I don't play Big Band just for the assist.

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Steam:
    Yomabuddy
    Filia
    Big Band
    Quick note, zoners take a LONG time to develop, more so than any archetype in the game, and it is pretty hard to tell what will be good on day 1 compared to what will be good later on. Also, without a working build, it's incredibly difficult to tell what will be good and what won't be.

    Also, just going through the original post, some things irk me a bit:
    We are fighting game players on a fighting game forum. There's no need to be so vague about how blocked bursts work. Just say whether they're punishable and if so, how.
    ie
    Same goes for your character bios.
    How does Helma have moves that help her make reads? The concept of making reads can go from command grabs, anti air grabs, punishable but damaging pokes, and so on and so forth. I'm not really getting to know anything about the character other than what I would read in the game manual, and if you're looking for character design feedback, you have to be a little more in depth than that.
    How does Abraham have a decent mixup? What tools does he have aside from his command grab that lead to said decent mixup? Why are his normals slow?
    The other bios do go in a little deeper but tend to still have similar levels of vagueness.
     
    North888 likes this.
  38. Armageddon11

    Armageddon11 :3

    Location:
    UK
    PSN:
    Armageddon-_11
    Unknown
    Double
    Unknown
    Considering button strength alters the direction/placement of Sarria's fireball and spike specials rather than something more insignificant like travel speed, I'd say L/M/EX versions of them is perhaps a poor choice. And only having the heavy version of dragon cost meter would feel rather out of place. On the other hand, I think the limiter is fine. Peacock has a similar limiter on her bombs; only 1 bombs of each version and 2 on-screen bombs at the same time are allowed.

    And if her gimmick button is for recovering Exhaustion, I can get behind the mechanic a little bit more, since it implies taking small gaps in combos/zoning to manually lower it will be a thing she will want to attempt to do/her opponent want to attempt to punish. Rather than just being stuck with her zoning tools locked away for however long every once in awhile.
     
    North888 likes this.
  39. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

    Location:
    Iowa
    Steam:
    North888
    PSN:
    Clide444
    Fukua
    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Yeah, and I'm saving her for later as far as developement goes. I guess I should lay off messing with it till I get a working build up.

    My bad, I will attempt to fix that. I had intended for it to be that you can't block until you land. I will go and fix the wording to be more clear, sorry.

    Yes, I know this is an issue. The problem is that I DON'T have a working model up yet. I'm working on that, and as such cannot speak on exact specifics. However, as I have been working for quite some time now on the specifics of Helma's movelist and stats and all that, I can update it to be more specific. I will also attempt to make everything more clear.

    Unfortunately, however, everyone past the first 6 are up in the air. As stated, they are the ones we're guaranteeing to get into the game. Everyone after that is a character we want to put in or have interesting ideas for, but aren't necessary to the overall plot of the game. Since it is a fighting game, however, and plot comes second, we're working hard to design these characters and try to get the more interesting and fun ones in. So basically I probably won't be able to get anymore specific on them at this time. I will try to, however, to make things more clear.

    Peacock was someone I actually took the general idea from. And in the case of it bieng L/M/EX, I would change their Heavy version to go in line with it being EX. Given what the Dragon does, it may take more effort to balance them down the road wen I get to them. Part of me wanted to make the Dragons her Supers, but that wouldn't match up very well, unless I cut it down to 2 Dragons, but then-
    Yeah, lot more thought needs to go into her. I'll keep her the way she is for now and rethink move lists when it comes time to work on her.

    Yeah, the idea is two fold. First, Sarria will zone with her projectiles to keep her opponent away, but then be forced in to avoid Exhaustion. Secondly, that Sarria has to mix in normals into her combos in order to avoid Exhaustion mid-combo, which builds it up the fastest compared to zoning in neutral. This creates a need not only to zone the opponent out, but also bring them in during combos or using her tools so she can get damage out of combos while still ending combos or offenses with the opponent away from her. It's a resource balancing game. I like to think it takes inspiration in many regards from Mike's Undizzy System, which works similar. Repeat attacks and longer combos build it up quickly, so you have to reset or go back to neutral to let it drop so you can keep on the offense. Obvious difference is that Exhaustion is her own mechanic that builds as she uses projectiles as opposed to building the opponents, and that you can't use the Exhaustion Mechanic to burst bait XD.

    @Yomabudd_y I will go into detail now about Helma, as she's the one I can talk the most indepth about. Tyrus himself has at least one extra overhead planned in his normals in addition to the universal overhead. He has the command grab, yes, but also a wide-hitting special move with low and mid variants. His arms are massive, bulky, and heavy metal arms that look like they belong on a construction machine, so he has more weight to him. I said Decent Mixup there at that point due, honestly, to me not thinking of other things to say about him. Now that we're farther down the path, I can expand on what he's going to be like without saying fluff, and I appologize for that.

    As stated, Helma has a followup mechanic. By pressing "Gimmick Button," as Armageddon11 put it, she can follow certain normals and specials with a secondary attack. For example, her standing B is her thrusting her knee up and forward quickly. By pressing D after that, she will blast fire out of the thrower in her knee, blasting the foe (the exact specifics of whether this move launches, wall bounces, or just sends them across the screen I can't acertain to yet, It's one of the things I'm currently building into her and trying to get right with the rest of her moves.) For now, it simply acts as a higher altitude launcher that gives the target some backwards velocity as well. The idea is to build it so she can use these followups in her combos to create combo paths out of the same point, allowing her a lot of flexibility and requiring the opponent to keep track of which move is coming up next so they don't get hit and eat the rest of the combo. As far as "Reads" goes, she has a few things:
    • Z-Motion+ABC: She has what's essentially an non-invincible DP that causes her to do a backflip and cover a large amount of air in fire. The disjointed hitboxes on the fire, however, make it good for catching opponents, and the move itself comes out quickly. Alternatively, there's a slightly slower variant (B) that covers less air space, but has more verticality to it. (B) also deals more damage but is more punishable and makes Helma linger in the air. Lastsly, the (C) version gives her backwards momentum and has the fire effect linger in the air until she finishes the short backflip. On hit, it can be linked into her dive kick. Additionally, on hit from either causes the opponent to drop straight towards the ground, again supporting the link from the Dive Kick and also setting her up in an advantageous position. The fires also counter projectiles, which is something most of her other moves don't.
    • QCF+ABC: She has a Hit-Grab special. She launches herself at a low angle a decent amount forwards and on hit grabs the opponent and blasts off of them, throwing them back at a low altitude (can get wall bounce). Pressing the special with A, B, or C will alter the distance and angle. A launchers her low the farthest distance and has noticeable startup. A also gives her some projectile invincibility, similar to Zangief's Lariat (to an extent), B has less startup than A but lacks as much distance or the invincibilty. B and C come out very quickly. C launches at a higher angle but has the shortest distance. It's very similar to I-No's AA read with the String. And if you get caught and commit to it too early or want to cancel the launch on hit, you can press D to cancel the move at any point up to a frame or two after hit to have Helma switch into doing an axe kick and putting the opponent on the ground in front of you. Alternatively, you can use it to cancel the move before you commit to it and get punished, though the move still does have obvious recovery and is, on whiff, more punishable due to recoery than the Hit-Grab is on block due to Hit-Grabs slight upward velocity and counting as Helma being in air. Additionally, you can use this in the air and Helma will do the move as a Divekick. It doesn't have any altering trajectories between ABC, but it still has the hit-grab and you can cancel most of her air normals into it as well. The Axe Kick followup with the Dive Kick version causes Helma to be put in a state similar to Bursting in the air; Helma cannot guard or attack, causing players to need to commit behind either the Dive or Follow up.
    • QCF+ABC: A quick kick with large stun behind it. Doesn't have varying versions between ABC, but unlike her normals, it can cause an extended stun state and has good priority. Can be followed up as well, causing a quick flame blast with some kick to it. Doesn't knock down, though. It exists to serve more as a reset point, since you can delay followup attacks by holding D and then releasing. You can chain the followup to this into her D normals if you haven't used them in the combo yet. This is again to further emphasis early use of it or as a reset point in a similar way to Beowulf's Pipebomb in that you can delay it to get a second hit or reset.
    I hope that goes a ways towards explaining her, yes? I hope to be able to do this will the whole cast as I work on them. God it took forever to write this. I will update the OP then with more details at a later time, seeing as how I must be off to work now.
     
  40. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

    Location:
    Iowa
    Steam:
    North888
    PSN:
    Clide444
    Fukua
    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Ok, so the OP has not been updated yet, that's because there are a few changes going on. While working on the planning and going over everything, we decided that our current list includes some characters that we really can't work with. Either because they don't have much impact or we can't think of a more indepth concept to the move list and feel the character doesn't have enough flair or personality or relevance to them to be worth doing so. So some updates on what will be changed on the next OP update:

    CHARACTERS TO BE MARKED AS REMOVED ALONGSIDE DOODICUS:
    -Dialakai: With Erdric, who is more interesting and grounded in a moveset based on other characters and a generally simpler concept, and with him not really fitting in with Erdric or Rhys, it really isn't worth keeping him around. His relevance to the story is next to none, though he will still be 'canon' as one of the Dieties.

    -C130-01: A grunt-type enemy. The original basis was a silly idea I had a long time ago. Going back over it, I can't imagine enough of a movelist, nor a consistency to how its moves would work. Thus, the Gorgon unit will be scrapped. It wasn't very relevant as much more than a filler battle for story anyways.

    CHARACTERS TO BE TAKEN UNDER HEAVY REDESIGN:
    -Fleur: His moveset is based on an overly gimmicky idea from early in this idea. I wanted to keep true to that since I was able to do so for other early characters. The truth of the matter is, however, that his idea is a bit too gimmick and takes away from what I feel I could do to make him a good character. Additionally, his backstory has been on my to-do list to rewrite, since the one who created the character and helped me write him has left the team. The conflicting vision we had for him now gone, I'm looking to reinvent Fleur since he's one of the higher up characters on our list of candidtates for new characters after the initial 6.

    If you have character ideas you feel work within the context of Invocation, I'm all open to ideas. Or if you have concepts for gameplay that may work better, feel free to PM them to me. I'm more than open to suggestion! Heck, Murasame is a character only slightly altered from a concept given to me by the forum's own Fumako, and for that, I'm grateful.

    SO THE NEXT UPDATE SHOULD BE WITHIN THE NEXT WEEK OR SO! It will have an indept list of Helma and Tyrus' attacks and overal stats. No frame data or images yet, but we're getting close to someting possably physical to at least show, hopefully by the end of the summer.

    I just want to end this by saying thanks to everyone continually giving support and suggestions and just generally responding to what I post here. I know the project started super rocky with how inexperienced I was. I've taken everything said to heart, and I feel its help improve the project. Taking that short hiatus to really dig into fighters and play a huge swath really helped me. I think I'll have to keep up with a lot of the games I played, so that I can get deeper knowledge still. I'm really appreciative of everything. I probably should have stopped the project altogethor, but I've stuck it out and might actually be able to turn this into something passable. So to everyone who still looks at this, thank you very much! :D
     
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