Let me hustle

Discussion in 'Training Diaries' started by Zidiane, Jun 11, 2014.

?

What is a man?

  1. A miserable pile of secrets

    29.7%
  2. You thought it was a poll answer, but it was I, Dio!

    23.4%
  3. Fuck you

    46.9%
  1. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    Most damaging option. Most risky option. If you wasted 5 bars. Fukua now is with less options. At the end of the day its up to you and your decisions.

    From the timestamp i was looking at, i would not agree because now you have you have to deal with eliza without bar. With a cmd grab all you need to do is loop the corner vortex. At max undizzy you get two ground chains. The last chain you just do m shadow.

    Tldr; the immediate reward sounds inviting but in that situation you got the corner...meterless
     
  2. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Zidiane
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    Cerebella
    In that situation, I had no health. Anything would have chipped me out, including Eliza assist. command grab into corner loops makes me have to guess once to kill, twice without meter. Then probably two or three times on Eliza. After lvl 5 there was no guessing to kill Fortune, then probably the same number of guesses vs Eliza. My meter doesn't matter cause getting touched by anything means I die.

    I know what you're saying, but the way I look at it, if the risk is death off of every wrong guess anyway then I may as well make the guess the most damaging one that no one is expecting.
     
  3. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    I watched the @dekillsage video. It was really enlightening. I think I can adapt some of that to how I play.

    I think I can use j.mk with bella neutral jump in almost the same way he used j.hp, and for retreating as well probably.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
    mcpeanuts likes this.
  4. Liam

    Liam ... Administrator

    Location:
    West Canada
    Steam:
    Skarmand
    PSN:
    Skarmand
    Robo Fortune
    Double
    Looking at this VoD I think healing was 6000% the correct thing to do.
    You could have also done a side switch combo or kancho or something so that when you snapped Parasoul out you would get incoming mix up vs Eliza.

    I will spend infinite amount of meter to save any of my characters because it's so important to heal, even if I don't get any damage or pressure from it.
     
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  5. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Steam:
    may_contain_peanuts
    Double
    Big Band
    Peacock
    This is a really good point. Zid, it's like when you do Dynamo xx fireball super from full screen to get Bella out, except it costs 1 bar instead of 2.
     
    Liam likes this.
  6. Liam

    Liam ... Administrator

    Location:
    West Canada
    Steam:
    Skarmand
    PSN:
    Skarmand
    Robo Fortune
    Double
    I will do Robo Level 3 > Car to the other side of the screen to get out of the corner > scope to make it safe.

    5 bars, see me in healing.
     
    mcpeanuts likes this.
  7. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    I'm always super hesitant to snap because whenever I have ever snapped in a similar situation, I'm dead one confirm later if they get a hit. Eliza would have killed me off that low sekhmet, even after I healed.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
     
  8. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Cerebella
    Maybe I've just had super shit luck. Idk. But it almost never works out the way it seems it should.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
     
  9. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
    Massachusetts
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    Double
    Big Band
    Peacock
    Maybe you need better setups after a snap
     
  10. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Zidiane
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    Cerebella
    Even assuming I get the pickup on incoming, if I guess wrong once on that character or the character I let live, most basic confirms will kill me. You can test it, see how much damage you can get on a solo whose health was around... however much health I had.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
     
  11. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Zidiane
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    Cerebella
    I'll actually probably recreate it at home. If everyone is saying I should have snapped, maybe I'm being dumb.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
     
  12. Liam

    Liam ... Administrator

    Location:
    West Canada
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    Skarmand
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    Robo Fortune
    Double
    Okay.

    [​IMG]

    I messed around with some memory editing to get the red / orange health values as close as possible using a ruler to line them up.
    Your health went from 5500 > 12600 (Could be off ona couple digits)

    I'm no Eliza expert but I'm pretty sure Eliza can't do 12.6K from low Sekh.
    She didn't have a bar when she started that combo and she blew her OTG immediately on the confirm which kills her boat damage.

    You would have lived. <3 : )
     
    TheCrankMachine and Zidiane like this.
  13. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Zidiane
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    Cerebella
    Nice. Thank you! Now, what that means is I need to figure out how to tell if I'll still live after a confirm by how much yellow and red health I have.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
     
  14. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Zidiane
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    Cerebella
    I'm thinking more and more about snaps now. At first I genuinely died every time I used snaps, but now that j think about it I realize why. Its because I only ever looked to regain health after I was almost dead. Before that point in a match, I never considered snapping.

    If I get two full heal snaps in one match, that's the same as forcing the opponent to do like 14k in one combo if they want the kill. It'll probably average out to one confirm and a reset with a bunch of meter, or two to three resets with no meter.

    I guess I was just so used to my old solo playstyle of "kill everything I touch right away" that I never fully considered the new option.
     
  15. Liam

    Liam ... Administrator

    Location:
    West Canada
    Steam:
    Skarmand
    PSN:
    Skarmand
    Robo Fortune
    Double
    Throwing away confirms for positioning / resources / healing is something a lot of players struggle with.

    The #1 thing I tell every single player when someone asks me for advice is "Save your characters"

    Do you have two meters and a safe DHC? Why are you still playing your point!
    Super > Super at fullscreen if it's not punishable at that range.

    McPeanuts set up his team for the purpose of Double sHP > Peacock tag to set up from a favorable position, but when he first was playing the team in tournament he would sometimes get carried away with Double confirms and just keep playing her.

    Some not as great Val's would try and reset every time in the corner rather than go for knockdown into vial loads.

    Some Robo's who try and zone will reset with sub par cross overs instead of knocking people away to fullscreen with sHK and getting heads.

    Some Solo's will try and close out a match with another 4 touches instead of healing, etc.

    Also since you play Solo remember to keep in mind that you don't lose red health while you are pushblocking, so make sure to pushblock heavy chip specials / supers to maximize that healing.
    It's also okay for you to eat command grabs / grabs because all the damage from those is also red health.
     
  16. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Zidiane
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    Cerebella
    Didn't know this was a thing.
     
  17. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Zidiane
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    Cerebella
    Quick pre-cb update.
    -got fukua link mostly down
    -more comfortable with Fukua resets.
    -got most random confirms with Fukua down. Still mess up lp fireball confirm.
    -I'm probably going to be using Big Band at cb. I can do enough with him that I'm comfortable pivoting into Bella/Band depending on the matchup.
     
  18. dapurplesharpie

    dapurplesharpie palette 7 eliza player

    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    Steam:
    dapurplesharpie
    Eliza
    From now on, I'm just gonna yell "FUCKING SNAP THEM ALREADY" at every tournament we go to.
     
    mcpeanuts likes this.
  19. alexpi

    alexpi Your waifu sucks

    It took 3 years, but we finally got @FuLLBLeeD to snap. Yelling works.
     
  20. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Zidiane
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    Cerebella
    Pls no spam
    Untag me
     
  21. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Zidiane
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    Cerebella
    Combo Breaker pools match, me vs @fenster

    This was probably the most stressful match of my life. Just look at me while we're playing.

    I'm not going to fully break this one down, but I'll go over a few things.

    The day before this I was picking apart what I would do in my match vs Fenster. I eventually came to the conclusion that he'd probably go Solo Parasoul, and that Bella/Fukua would eat that alive. After the first match, he'd switch to the team he switched to. In that case, I was going to lose, but I would gather data. After it was 1-1, I would switch to Bella/Brass and blow up his assist shenanigans. This was the right plan, but I lose anyway. I lose the set for a few reasons.

    1. I'm still upbacking like a mad man. Nearly every hit was either predicting I'd jump and grab me, or going low
    2. I give up too early and suck myself out of the match
    3. I'm not as used to Big Band as I need to be
    4. I still have a little trouble with the initial transition from one team to the next

    If any one of these problems had been solved before the set, I think I could have taken it.

    As far as problem 2, this has been an ongoing problem for me. The more effort I put into the game, the more I think through situations and put in work, the more often I do this when things don't go my way. I don't know how to fix this. I know how to fix everything else but this.

    As far as when it happens this set, I start to pull myself out after the third round when I wasn't able to execute my plan like I needed, despite knowing how to do it. I manage to pull myself back for the next round, fortunately. I'm shaky from this point on, despite doing well in the fourth match and early fifth match. The moment I fully check out is in the final match, when after having an enormous life lead Parasoul lands lvl 3 on both characters.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016
  22. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Cerebella
    Oh. There were some new developments as well, outside of just that match.

    Outside of pools, I received advice from both @cloudKing211 and @dekillsage once again.

    Cloud's advice was essentially be more conscious of when I'm applying pressure with Bella/MShadow, and when it's good to back off. He said try to call shadow, go for the mixup, then back off if they don't get hit. I still tend to get in there and stick to them, habits from solo bella still popping up when they shouldn't. He also suggested attempting to aim shadow for when the opponent is landing from a jump. He said a good tactic is to put the opponent in situations where they feel like they can do something, but they can't. Other than that, it seems like I'm playing the team more or less appropriately. I have noticed that this same issue with staying in too long also applies after I get the hit and go for a reset. I'll do something really tight backed by Shadow, have it blocked, then continue the pressure and get hit. I should see if I can't back off again and play Bella a little further back than I'm used to. I'm also getting more comfortable doing Battle Butt and shadow at the same time, which is pretty good stuff.

    Sage also asked if I ever played Bella/Fukua/Band. Honestly, I'd never considered it before, so I played a few casuals with it. It honestly isn't terrible. The team is very solid, too. I can sit at the range I do for M Shadow, and use Beat Extend if they press me too hard. If I need to, I can dhc to Fukua pretty easily. If I do that, it's Fukua/Band/Bella, which isn't terrible, and if Fukua dies then I come out with Team Drewski, which isn't bad at all. If Bella dies, Fukua Band is very playable. If Band gets snapped/AC'd in, I can still DHC to Fukua pretty safely (the only difference from above is if Fukua dies it's Team Mike Z, which is equally not bad). If Band dies after that situation (being snapped in or w/e) then I come out with Fukua/Bella, which Sage has proven time and again is great.

    If I do decide to work on this trio, which I might (I like their colors :3), I'd need to figure out where this team fits in with the rest of my strategy. In tournaments, I like going solo bella against unknown elements, or people I feel like will let me in or make bad assist calls. Bella/Shadow is for people who won't let Bella in, as I showed vs Fenster above. Bella/Band can shut down people who like to sit away from me and call assist often with Brass, people who like to stay in the air where I can't reach with a-train, and it can keep a bubble around me that the opponent can't get into safely with Beat Extend (also Dynamo pickups).

    The trio would be either H LNL/M Shadow/Beat Extend (by default), or probably Excellebella/Drill/H Brass (idk about this one yet, but maybe?). But... I don't know who it would be able to beat that picking the above teams wouldn't. If someone can be shut down with just mshadow, then making myself weaker gives me more chances to lose when I should have gone duo, and the same applies to bella/band. I need to do a lot of experimenting, before I even start looking at Beo (who I was planning on learning next while I improved my Eliza).

    Oh. Also see how safe Devil Horns and H Brass at the same time is.
     
  23. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
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    Double
    Big Band
    Peacock
    Would definitely encourage trying all kinds of orders and assists with Fukua, Bella, and Big Band. There's a bunch of viable trio teams that can be made out of these 3 characters so experiment and see what fits you best.

    Come to think of it, didn't SIG run Fukua/Big Band/Bella at NEC? Maybe take a look at those VODs and see if there's anything in there that looks good.
     
  24. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    If they just jump you lose Band. Otherwise it isn't awful.
     
  25. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    so basically awful
     
  26. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    I don't think that's what that means. Having this setup means that the opponent must just jump if they want to avoid it, which discourages more aggressive offensive pressure. Even just discouraging an option is enough. Learned that from @Mike_Z.

    Also came to the conclusion that this whole "using a varied roster for different opponents" is almost like playing one giant grappler. I have the nuclear option of Solo to deter a bunch of playstyles like Command Grabs discourage being on the ground, and Fukua and Band are there to sweep up what's left. At least, that's how I'm looking at it.

    Oh yeah, he did.





    Just skimming, it looks like he plays Fukua/H Brass/Copter. Fukua basically can't be approached on the ground with Brass, and she can protect band with usual m shadow pressure. Copter for block strings and damage for when Fukua makes the decision to go in.
     
  27. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    I don't know about that actually. if you lose band then?? doesn't discourage much. you can tailor the offense to the defense and so on and so forth. I would definitely look into that Devil horns +brass against either neutral jump + assist or super jump +assist and see how bad the risk would be if you chose to do so.

    from my view the worst thing that can happen is that you read wrong and tag the assist and i just suki cancel and punish the assist to my heart's content.
     
  28. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Zidiane
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    Cerebella
    I think you're missing the point of a deterrent. A good example is Bella's lvl 3. Everyone knows Bella has lvl 3 and it mops if it happy birthday's. Because of this, they don't put her in the corner and go ham calling assists and going low or overhead. This gives me more room to breathe, giving me more chances to get out since they're either jumping or grabbing. I don't have to be mashing lvl 3 (and dying when they punish) to make them leave me alone, I just have to have the option. In the case that they want to go ham, I know they aren't respecting the option, so I use it.

    This is the same way I'll be using Devil Horns and Brass together.
     
    Cadenza likes this.
  29. dapurplesharpie

    dapurplesharpie palette 7 eliza player

    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    Steam:
    dapurplesharpie
    Eliza
  30. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Steam:
    may_contain_peanuts
    Double
    Big Band
    Peacock
    He actually uses L Shadow, for Powerful Gimmicks. But I don't see any reason why you couldn't run M Shadow with that team.
     
  31. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Honestly, if I run the same team he did, anything that would want to keep me out would probably be dead by the time Fukua switches out. In that case, I could probably use l shadow as well, though maybe I'll try to use h shadow. It hits higher and it's a high, so there would be more setups to use with it.
     
  32. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    re: any option with a downside
    Don't be discouraged by people saying "well then it sucks" because something loses to one thing. The entire point of playing a grappler is to know when it DOESN'T suck, because your opponent knows it sucks and isn't thinking about it.
     
  33. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
    Massachusetts
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    may_contain_peanuts
    Double
    Big Band
    Peacock
    L Shadow is a lot better for Big Band. It gives you safe high lows like empty jump call assist/safe jump j.MK, or max range L Giant Step/assist.
     
  34. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Rhode Island
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    Zidiane
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    zidiane5
    XBL:
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    Cerebella
    Oh, I was thinking with Bella. I'll try that stuff.
     
  35. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
    Massachusetts
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    may_contain_peanuts
    Double
    Big Band
    Peacock
    Word. Bella might actually be able to get the same kind of safe jumps as Big Band off f.HP if you save your OTG.
     
  36. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
     
    Zidiane likes this.
  37. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Zidiane
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    zidiane5
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    Cerebella
    All of these were incredibly close. I've never had so many matches almost go to timeout.
     
  38. Kai

    Kai Go Home And Be A Family Man! Beowulf

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Steam:
    Kai
    PSN:
    Night_Phyre
    Parasoul
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    That lv5 kill you didn't get because of timeout was heartbreaking.
     
  39. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

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    Zidiane
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    zidiane5
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    Zidiane
    Cerebella
    I wanted it so bad...

    it's @20:03 for anyone who wants to skip to it.
     
  40. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

    Location:
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    Zidiane
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    zidiane5
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    Zidiane
    Cerebella
    Progress Report:
    Team SIG feels like I always wanted my Peacock team to feel. I make space, throw stuff, call brass when they approach, harass them, call brass again. I kinda like it.
     
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