Notes on properties of normals and supers

Discussion in 'Beowulf' started by pegglefrank, Dec 11, 2016.

  1. pegglefrank

    pegglefrank I am 5000lbs of folded diamonds and sex appeal!

    Steam:
    PeggleFrank
    Big Band
    Beowulf
    Cerebella
    I have Beo's hitboxes burned into my eyes and soul. If you don't, go check out the pinned thread with all of his hitboxes. Also, I'm accounting for the Betawulf changes. If you haven't played it, you should.

    I don't play anyone other than Band, Fortune, Bella, and Beo, and I barely play Bella anymore. Even though there are some people who can do extremely well with Beo, I see them mess up some of the basics for seemingly no reason, leading to a deficit in damage, a dropped combo, a lost game, etc. (note: I see this even more with Band, but I'm more familiar with Beo's moves so I'm doing a thread on him first). This spans from the worst players to the absolute best. It seems like it stems from a not-so-great grip on Beo's moves more than anything else, because there are people who can win with Beo while still making these kinds of mistakes left and right. So, here's a little overview of all of Beo's moves. Using slightly un-optimized combos is fine, but when you're using un-optimized moves that just aren't appropriate for the situation, that can have far, far worse consequences. You can be a great Beo player and still not have this stuff down, which is why I find it important to write it down so others can take note.

    This is coming mostly from personal experience, although some of the really fine-tuned stuff is based on the actual frame data of the moves.

    Crouched Normals
    • c.lp - This is Beo's fastest normal, but it comes with a catch: it pushes the opponent into the air. With the right timing, you can let heavier characters fall a little bit after doing this, but it's tricky and can cause you to mess up your combo. This doesn't have great vertical range, but it has respectable horizontal range. Should probably use this in place of s.lp whenever possible, because s.lp doesn't have anything going for it besides vertical range.

    • c.mp - This is Beo's most powerful grounded medium attack, but it has some properties of its own, and it also lacks some things offered by other grounded mediums. Like c.lp, this will push the opponent into the air. However, this is basically the end of the line when it comes to lowering the height of your opponent. Regular c.hp has fast enough startup that you can let your opponent drop a little bit after c.mp, but chairless c.hp has such slow startup that you don't even have a single frame to let your opponent drop. This isn't always relevant, but sometimes it means your opponent will stay in the air for long enough to fall outside the range of chairless c.hp after c.mp, which is a bad thing. Sometimes, they'll still be hit by c.hp, but they'll be much farther away, which could also be a bad thing. s.hk has a few frames of leeway, but it's very risky, and will probably lead to a dropped combo.

      s.mp + mic drop does more damage than c.mp and builds 1/4 hype, but it's a lot easier to drop than c.mp, and doesn't always work if your opponent is in the air at midscreen (the knockback from s.mp will knock them away from the mic drop).

      This move is mostly useful in the corner and when used in the last chain of your combo. Also, it moves you forward a little bit, but not much. If you're doing something like c.mp, s.hk, 933/711 Blitzer into c.mp again or s.mk, c.mp will not move you far enough for some characters, resulting in a drop when doing Blitzer. Again, this won't happen if you're using it in the last chain of your combo. This move is preferable over Beo's other mediums at midscreen if your opponent is on the ground, because it won't lift them into the air like it normally does and you'll be able to benefit from its slightly increased damage. If the opponent is really close to you, is on the ground, and you're at midscreen, then s.mp + mic drop is probably better.

    • c.hp - Not much to say. It's just a launcher. It has very short startup so you can wait a long time after your other moves before doing c.hp, which helps keep your opponent lower to the ground and makes your combo more reliable.

    • c.hp (Chairless) - In contrast to regular c.hp, chairless c.hp has such slow startup that you don't have any leeway. If you want to do one of Beo's mediums into c.hp, you might as well mash it out right after. If you try and start c.hp even one frame later than usual, because you want to get your opponent closer to the ground before doing c.hp or something similar, the combo will drop. After doing chairless c.hp, you only have time to do c.lp against heavies (you can do s.lp or c.lk, but they're extra inconsistent because they come out a frame later. s.lk comes out 4 frames later; don't do it). Against mediums and medium-heavies, you can do j.lp, j.lk, j.mp, and then do whatever you like. Probably s.hk. Against lights, you can get even more crazy and do basically any move you want, because they're in the air for so long.

    • c.lk - Beo's second most useful light. This deals the same damage as c.lp and s.lp, but the hitbox is a lot better than c.lp and s.lp. It may be closer to the ground, but it goes a lot farther, making it much more consistent when at range. You can immediately chain into one of Beo's mediums that move him forward after doing c.lk, and at that point you probably won't drop the combo unless you push your opponent into the air with c.mp. You're more likely to drop a combo right after c.lp/s.lp, so doing c.lk instead can make your combo more consistent because of its greater range. Other than that, c.lk's usefulness varies. s.lk deals more damage, but has a very short horizontal hitbox, making it inconsistent out of the corner. s.lk's hitbox is also very tall, compared to c.lk's hitbox. This makes s.lk a lot better to use when in the corner, because it'll hit your opponent from higher up, won't push them into the air like c.lk does, and is overall just a lot more consistent to pull off. c.lk is mostly useful in combos when at midscreen. It also hits low and is pretty fast, so when it comes to neutral, you should be using this to poke. But I bet you knew that already.

      One more thing: You can do c.lk into c.mk to pick up an opponent from OTG. This technically deals more damage, but uses up c.lk in IPS and pushes your opponent away, which might mean a drop if you're at midscreen. However, c.lk has less startup than c.mk, so this can really, really help against heavier characters who recover almost immediately.

    • c.mk - Pretty bad move. It deals the least damage out of all of Beo's mediums, has terrible vertical and horizontal range, has 1f slower startup than his medium punches, and doesn't move him forward as much. That last part is pretty bad considering s.mk, a perfectly viable alternative, moves him further than any of his other normals. There are only two good things about this move: it can put you into grab stance if you use it as OTG, which is great at the end of your combo; and it hits low, unlike Beo's other grounded mediums which all hit mid. Hitting low is somewhat useful, because it means you can add another low to your block chains, when otherwise Beo's other normals would just be hitting mid and could be blocked high or low. It might be tempting to just hold downward and press LP, LK, MK, and then end in s.hk or something to make it easier for yourself, but don't do that. c.mk is a move that should not be used for anything other than blockstrings or OTG pickups. It can even drop in the corner if you're not careful, because it doesn't move you forward at all, and can completely whiff if you're pushing your opponent into the air with c.lp or c.lk.

    • c.hk - There's not really any reason to use this move besides getting in a cheeky 1k damage in neutral. I have a combo that involves j.mk, j.hk, c.hk -> L Chair Toss, but it's just for fun. It deals a tad bit more damage than s.hk and has less startup, so the only reason to ever use this is for OTG to make use of its high damage. Otherwise, not really great.

    • c.hk (Chairless) - Mostly unusable in combos outside of finishers, but this move is great in neutral. If you can do Gigantic Arm, you can do chairless c.hk afterwards to make use of its whopping 1.4k damage. Then, you can do Gigantic Arm again. Nothing new, but that's one of its only uses, so I may as well bring it up. Also, if you set this as an assist, Beo won't re-grab his chair, so he'll use the full arm. It's a bit gimmicky, but could be useful to some in need of some extremely high-damage moves that don't involve multihits.

    Standing Normals
    • s.lp - This move is probably best ignored outside of specific circumstances. c.lp has more horizontal reach than this, making it the better choice in a lot of cases. c.lp also comes out 1 frame earlier. This move's startup is on par with c.lk, but unlike c.lk, it doesn't actually have the horizontal range to justify it. All it has is vertical range. You should only use this if you're in the corner, or if you're at fullscreen and need to build hype.

    • s.mp - This move has a couple of uses. For one, it doesn't have as much horizontal knockback as c.mp, making it much better for midscreen. That said, c.mp also moves you forward. You should use s.mp when the opponent is in the air, to minimize knockback, and use c.mp when they're on the ground, to maximize damage. Alternatively, you can use s.mp + mic drop when the opponent is on the ground for more damage and 1/4 hype, although this may make your combo slightly inconsistent. The mic drop is a terrible move if your opponent is in the air still, so only do it when they're grounded (you can do it if they're in the air, but only if they're in the corner). The mic drop is also an overhead, so you can use it in block strings or as a reset.

    • s.hp - Somewhat interesting, if underused, move. It has a very long range, but suffers from 1f longer startup than s.hk, which is already a long move. It's not overhead, but it can sometimes be useful for catching your opponent off-guard, or for continuing a combo where s.hk would otherwise whiff. Mostly useful at midscreen. If you're using it in a combo, you should go straight into L Chair Toss or LK Blitzer after this move. This move is also useful for conserving s.hk in IPS, allowing you to delay it until a little later in the combo, at the cost of not being able to use s.hk for its enhanced damage over s.hp.

    • s.hp (Chairless) - A move that has a lot of potential, but needs support. On the ground, combo into this with c.mp. When the opponent is in the air, use s.mk instead. It's an alternative to c.mk if you've already used OTG and haven't used your grab stance. It allows you two hits, just like c.mk, so there's not much difference between the two. This is mostly useful for grabbing the opponent out of the air after EX Grendel Killa.

    • s.lk - This move isn't great, but it does have some benefits. It boasts the highest damage out of Beo's lights. It also pulls the opponent downward, unlike c.lk, making it a lot easier to keep the opponent on the ground (such as for setting up blitzers, like I mentioned last paragraph). The verticality of its hitbox is slightly better than c.lk's, but it suffers from not having a lot of horizontal reach. If you're in the corner, and you're very close to your opponent, s.lk might be a better choice than c.lk. However, it's probably not too useful otherwise.

    • s.mk - This move does a couple of things. It moves you forward quite a bit, making it possible to chain into chairless s.hp when your opponent is airborne (which is extremely useful when it's necessary might I add). For some odd reason, c.mp doesn't move you far enough forward for this to work, but it does move you far enough forward when your opponent is grounded. This leads to strange fringe cases where s.mk, s.hp (Chairless) works against airborne opponents, while c.mp, s.hp (Chairless) works against grounded opponents, but not vice versa. That kind of situation doesn't always pop up, but when it does, this is important to know. s.mk doesn't move you back to your original position after the move is over, which might be helpful in a couple of situations compared to c.mp. The move has 1f longer startup, but there aren't really any situations where that matters too much, considering you'll usually be chaining into it from a light.

    • s.hk - There's not much to really say about this move. You might get 1 frame at best when it comes to leeway if you're chaining from a medium into s.hk, which could allow you to get your opponent on the ground before hitting them with s.hk (which makes for more reliable blitzers in the corner, and makes it possible to not drop the combo at midscreen), but other than that s.hk is pretty simple. It moves you forward, but it's sometimes not enough, so you shouldn't rely on it. For example, there are times where c.mp, s.hk, 933/711 Blitzer will whiff on the last Blitzer hit, but s.mk won't because it moves you forward just a tiny bit more. Both combos have s.hk, but it doesn't always move you forward enough sometimes. It really depends on the combo.

    Jumping Normals
    • j.lp - Pretty generic move. Nice hitbox and generous hitstun. Most useful as a quick overhead out of a hop, although you can also use it as an overhead out of a regular jump against the taller half of the cast. Unlike j.lk, j.mk, j.hk, and j.hp, this move isn't active/in recovery for an obscene amount of time, making it and j.mp the only two aerials capable of leading into a tick throw.

    • j.mp - This move has a hitbox that's positioned pretty high up, which means it'll sometimes go over the opponent and whiff. Like j.lp, it's only active for a short amount of time. It has very generous hitstun. It should be noted that Beo's aerials actually have a lot more stun than they do when done out of a dash jump. For example, you can actually link from j.lp to s.hk if you do it out of a regular jump. This isn't the most useful thing in the world, but the extra stun gives you more time to set up a reset or try and do something sneaky during a blockchain.

    • j.hp - Like its s.hp counterpart, this move has some crazy range on it. You can do a lot of cool stuff to recover a combo if your opponent ends up going too far away for your combo to keep working by default. j.hp has enough range and hitstun that, if you really need to, you can do it at range and then do another move like Blitzer to get the combo going again. Not very useful in combos otherwise. You can sometimes interchange j.hp and j.mp, but it's not always the most reliable because j.hp has a lot more startup. In the air, this makes a big difference, because your speed will be exponentially increasing for every extra frame of startup. Can crossup your opponent by jumping behind them with this active.

    • j.hp (Chairless) - Useful for throwing out in neutral. Useful at the end of combos, although you're usually better off doing chairless s.hp since grounded finishers deal more damage than aerial ones. Maybe you just want the penguin. You probably want the penguin.

    • j.lk - This usually comes after j.lp and doesn't do anything else. You can jump behind your opponent for a crossup. It technically has more hitstun than j.lp, but the move stays out long after the active frames are over, so the extra hitstun isn't that useful. You can use this in place of j.lp for a quick overhead from a hop, and it'll deal 100 more damage, but comes out 1 frame later. Other than that, this move isn't very noteworthy.

    • j.mk - Similar to j.lk, this move seriously overstays its welcome, and will stay out for a long time until you either hit the ground or chain into another move. It deals slightly more damage than j.mp, and can link into s.hk if done from a hop, although you get significantly less time to do s.hk so it's not as reliable. You can crossup some characters by doing this move and then jumping behind them, just like j.lk and j.hp, although this applies to only a couple of especially big characters. The wiki doesn't have the hit stun or block stun written down, but I can tell that this move has a lot less hit stun than j.mp. The hitbox is also significantly lower, meaning it'll whiff on a lot of characters. I've noticed that, while j.mk's hitbox is low and j.mp's hitbox is high, j.mk tends to whiff far more than j.mp. This move doesn't push the opponent as far into the air as j.mp, so if you're doing something like j.hk into c.hk, you should use j.mk before j.hk, not j.mp. Otherwise, use j.mp, as it makes a lot of links significantly easier to pull off.

    • j.hk - This will slam the opponent to the ground, almost guaranteeing that you'll need to use OTG to continue the combo. It does slightly less damage than j.hp. Unfortunately, I can't tell you if it has more hit stun than j.hp, because whoever was inputting the frame data for Beo's moves on the wiki fell asleep. Some rough manual testing shows +27 for j.hk and +28 for j.hp, although that's definitely going to be influenced by their startup, so it should be safe to say they have very similar hitstun. Not the most useful thing in combos because its startup is so long that you need to start the move long before you touch the ground, which means that it's very difficult to land the move without actually using OTG. j.hp deals more damage anyway, so if you're doing j.hk for damage, use j.hp instead. If you don't have the chair, j.hk is acceptable to use, but it's a lot more finnicky and there's a good chance you'll just jump over your opponent instead. Speaking of, this move can sometimes crossup your opponent, but they need to be especially fat. Seems to only work on Band, but you might be able to get it to work on other characters. You can also link j.hk into s.hk if you want, which is a nice continuation if you land the j.hk.

    • dj.hk - This wasn't a very useful move before. The only use I ever found for it was a homebrew combo that involved j.mk, j.hp, j.mk, j.hp, j.mk, dj.hk. And the only reason I used it there was because I didn't need the chair for the next part of the combo, and dj.hk dealt very slightly more damage than j.hp. Some testing in-game shows that dj.hk's damage was nerfed, so it's not even worth using over j.hp for the damage bonus anymore. Crossups with this move are especially obvious, because Beo is in the air at an unnatural height, a height that he's never at normally. Still, maybe you could try that and then go for some kind of mixup afterwards, maybe with Blitzer. Trying to incorporate this into a combo usually leads to unnecessarily wasting moves in IPS, dropping combos, building undizzy with low-damage moves, etc. You can't even do it out of a hop anymore. You can use it for a chairless jump-in if you really want to, but that's about it.

    Specials & Supers (of interest)
    • Wulf Blitzer - This isn't really mentioned anywhere, by anyone, or even on the wiki, but different Blitzers deal different damage. Each blitzer deals differing amounts of damage based on direction. The last blitzer deals bonus damage. Also, blitzers add 20 undizzy per. I noticed the last one used to add more, but I guess that got changed in the Beta and I didn't notice it in the changelogs. This makes aerial Blitzers more efficient overall, in terms of damage:undizzy.

      Here, have a useful chart!:

      Code:
      ╔═══════════╦════════╦═══════════════════╗
      ║ Direction ║ Damage ║ Damage (Finisher) ║
      ╠═══════════╬════════╬═══════════════════╣
      ║     2     ║  275   ║        575        ║
      ║    3/1    ║  275   ║        675        ║
      ║    6/4    ║  375   ║        775        ║
      ║    9/7    ║  475   ║        875        ║
      ║     8     ║  575   ║        975        ║
      ╚═══════════╩════════╩═══════════════════╝
      
      You might notice a few things from the chart. For example, 923 deals more damage than 932, even though the blitzers are going in the same directions. Additionally, doing 3 upwards blitzers, which is normally just a troll move, deals pretty respectable damage for no meter. You're rewarded for keeping the blitzer moving as far upwards as possible, which makes sense because it's harder to continue the combo the more you move upwards with your blitzers. 682 isn't strictly a subpar variant of 692; it deals slightly more damage. Blitzers in the 2/3 direction are interchangeable damage-wise unless they're finishers, in which case 3 is more efficient. Pretty cool stuff.

    • Take a Seat - This move gives you a great opportunity to quickly cancel out of whatever you were doing and do a surprise low/high/grab. Now that you can cancel out of chairless c.hp, now is the perfect time to incorporate this into your play. Nobody is really used to getting hit with a surprise reset during what's normally Beo's super-slow launcher.

    • Wulf Shoot - I also feel like this move doesn't see the spotlight that often. It's not a very good move, but there are times where it's extremely useful. For example, if you have an assist that's throwing projectiles, Wulf Shoot becomes infinitely more likely to hit; the enemy's instinct tells them to block, meaning you'll have a much greater chance of being able to grab them while they're focused on the projectiles. Additionally, you can counter Wulf Shoot's slow startup and travel time by starting it while you're off-screen. c.hp, j.lp, j.lk, j.mp, s.lp, c.mp, c.hp -> Wulf Shoot is just cheesy as all get-out. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of ways to mix it up, so it might only work once. I use this move way more than I should, and you'd be surprised how good it is if you can catch your opponent off-guard with it. The classic c.lp, c.mp -> Wulf Shoot -> c.lp, c.mp -> Wulf Shoot and so on works too.

    • Grab stance during supers - This is applicable to pretty much any super that lets you use grab stance. Headbutts deal more damage. Get it out of your head that knees deal more damage, because here, they don't. Knees got buffed a bit, but headbutts still deal more damage. Knees can be useful if you don't want to scale the combo as much, but by the time you do a super that lets you assume grab stance, you're probably already well into your combo. There is absolutely no good reason on this earth to use knees over headbutts. Scaling doesn't resume until after the super is over, so doing knees first and then headbutts won't change a thing. Also, remember that aerial finishers will deal less damage than grounded ones, so you should only use them if you need to maneuver somewhere, such as the corner.

    • Taunt - Taunt is more useful than ever. EX moves are off the walls, you can only get up to one hype by landing on the chair, and you can now convert off of Moonsault if you have enough hype. You can't get enough hype to pick up from Moonsault by just landing on the chair, and doing it with mic drops is risky because of the timing and will take awhile. If you can put yourself in a safe position, call an armored assist that will protect you, and taunt, you'll be golden. Also of note: s.lp is a lot more useful now. Through my own testing, -141 wasn't enough to get to max hype, but -142 was. Hype gain seems to start after active frames (just tapping s.lp doesn't build hype). It has 7 frames of startup, 2 active frames, and 13 recovery frames, so it should take 120 frames to reach max hype, not accounting for start/active/recovery. I don't have a clue what the frame data is for Beo's taunt, because in-game results seem to wild from 87 to 100. However, that's enough to assume that taunting will probably be faster than using s.lp. That said, s.lp is a lot safer, because you can stop hyping and start blocking if you notice something heading your way. It all depends on how safe you want to be and the character you're fighting against.
     

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