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Painwheel MDE Combo Thread (Page 3 Onwards)

Nice combos!

I won't be using them, but very nice indeed and maybe someone else will take them and run with it :)
 
Thanks. If you need midscreen combo use this one. Not as fancy but should do the job.
 
Question: how are you landing enough s.hp as CHs to warrant learning a combo specifically for them?
 
Spencer said:
Question: how are you landing enough s.hp as CHs to warrant learning a combo specifically for them?


Lol, I've said it like 3 times already :)

Via a burst bait punish.


They burst in the air, I catch them falling with a st.hp punish.
 
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This character is just so much fun ;3;

 
Hi

Credit goes to Gllt for coming up with the basis of this combo aka 90% of it

and for fun

 
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The first combo is very old.

Still a great combo though.
 
Weatherbee said:
Hi

Credit goes to Gllt for coming up with the basis of this combo aka 90% of it
lol it's post #420 on this thread, from august 2014

c.lk, c.mk, c.hp, H brass, fly,
6j.mk,
s.hp, L buer, fly,
6j.lk, c.mk, L buer, fly
3j.lp,
c.mp, s.hp, L nails,
dash, s.lp, s.lk, c.mp, s.hp, L buer, super

9063

does 9183 with the ender you used
 
Oh a year ago, ya I wasn't gonna remember that... and mine is still different, they start the same but the route is changed... not the same combo? It's similar ya, but it's not the same. Also I just optimized it for 9231 damage

c.lk, c.mk, c.hp, H brass, fly,
6j.mk,
s.hp, L buer, fly,
6j.lk, c.mk, s.hp L nails,
dash c.mp, L buer, fly
3j.lp,
s.lp, cr.lk, c.mp, f+hk, L buer, super
 
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Hey guys, new PW main here. I was wondering..why don't I ever see top PW's do:

throw xx j.buer (land cancel), cr.LKMK st.HP etc (if you time it right you pick them up mid-air and save otg)

Everyone including Taluda does throw xx fly j.MK stuff, but that transitions right to stage 3 when you land and you lose damage. The very first thing I learned was cancelling my throws to buer and now it's all I do.

Also, should I be going for my full bnb, or cutting it short at 7-8 hits and saving undizzy for resets and such? I know to pump all my damage in if the combo will kill, but otherwise I'm a little confused. For context, my midscreen BnB is:

cr.LKMK st.HP xx L Buer xx Fly
j.6LK cr.MK st.HP xx L Buer xx Fly
j.9LPLK st.MP j.MP(3)HP(3)HK(restand)
st.LPLK cr.MP(4) st.H xx L Buer xx Death Crawl

My reset points usually involve fly cancelling early st.HPs or Buers and going for fly overheads / j.MP whiff lows / throws.
I'm been digging on youtube and found a bunch of st.HK resets which I will try to mix in somewhere. Is this how I should be going about it? I really want to understand PW's combo flow on point so I can keep the momentum going when I land a hit.
 
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RaynEX said:
Hey guys, new PW main here. I was wondering..why don't I ever see top PW's do:

throw xx j.buer (land cancel), cr.LKMK st.HP etc (if you time it right you pick them up mid-air and save otg)

i usually buer cancel my grab into an instant air j.hp which doesnt use otg on some characters into a bnb in the corner i buer cancel to C.hp
 
Krackatoa does the throw xx j.buer as part of his corner carry stuff.

The thing is, you really shouldn't be going for damage off of a throw under most circumstances. The scaling is shit, and the meter you give away is high. So most of use get a bit of damage in and go for early resets off of throws.

As for resets... well that's a bit more up in the air. There are plenty of viable ways to play this game. Some people go all in for damage with very few resets. The upside is every confirm hurts like hell. The downside is you feed your opponent a ton of meter which can cost you matches. You can also go for very early resets which gives you more meter than your opponent, but you add tiny "holes" into your combo which are escapable (and reversable).

How I approach the game varies match to match. Occasionally you want a character out because they give you problems or suck without assists. So put the hurt on and either snap-back or bait the tag. Other times you are playing a bit more straight up so you are looking for the classic combo into reset into a combo that will kill. If you are playing solo, you're typically better off going for the 2-touch of death. If you are playing trio vs solo, you typically don't want to do full combos because you're going to give your opponent a ton of meter for not a ton of damage. Ultimately, you'll just develop a game sense as to when to combo and when to reset.
 
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RaynEX said:
why don't I ever see top PW's do:

throw xx j.buer (land cancel), cr.LKMK st.HP etc (if you time it right you pick them up mid-air and save otg)
Ease of use/laziness. For what it's worth, you can go straight from the land cancel into s.HP (without using OTG) if you walk forward a tiny a bit. I started playing Painwheel properly a couple of weeks ago and that's the throw conversion I'm practising.
 
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Spencer said:
Krackatoa does the throw xx j.buer as part of his corner carry stuff.

The thing is, you really shouldn't be going for damage off of a throw under most circumstances. The scaling is shit, and the meter you give away is high. So most of use get a bit of damage in and go for early resets off of throws.

As for resets... well that's a bit more up in the air. There are plenty of viable ways to play this game. Some people go all in for damage with very few resets. The upside is every confirm hurts like hell. The downside is you feed your opponent a ton of meter which can cost you matches. You can also go for very early resets which gives you more meter than your opponent, but you add tiny "holes" into your combo which are escapable (and reversable).

How I approach the game varies match to match. Occasionally you want a character out because they give you problems or suck without assists. So put the hurt on and either snap-back or bait the tag. Other times you are playing a bit more straight up so you are looking for the classic combo into reset into a combo that will kill. If you are playing solo, you're typically better off going for the 2-touch of death. If you are playing trio vs solo, you typically don't want to do full combos because you're going to give your opponent a ton of meter for not a ton of damage. Ultimately, you'll just develop a game sense as to when to combo and when to reset.


^^^

This basically. The way to reset with pw can be very organic. Me personally what I do is use smallish to medium size combos depending on team structure, but if I can kill them I use my big 2 meter combo to finish the job, and if I REALLY want them dead, I'll add in a dhc for a 3 meter combo.


Also @RaynEX

How you reset has more to do with your opponents character than, the resets themselves. As an example it's better to reset peacock, double, bella and parasoul in the air since none of them have air reversals (save for doubles level 5) in general it's better to reset in the air anyways especially off a launcher since your opponent generally has less access to reversals, can't tag reversal, and can't call defensive assists till they land... In other words they are on their own.


The throw thing is pure laziness. 98% of the time it's detrimental to run optimal throw conversions because throws give the opponent ridiculous amounts of meter... So there is little reason... Usually, to run fully optimised throw combos.

Also, for painwheel at least, her reset theory has a lot to do with your starter:

Highly scaled starters are much more likely to go short combo into reset... Starters like j.mp, or jhk, or jhp are usually going to be short combos unless they will kill. Whereas a cr.lk starter will always be full undizzy to max out the good scaling. There isn't any "correct way" to really mixup with pw or most other characters... The situations are left ambiguous enough that's it's a judgement call as to go for full damage or not.


You might think that going for full undizzy is always the best option, since upfront damage is guaranteed damage, but I've lost so many games, as I'm sure others have, where I've done max undizzy combos, but then my opponent gets a decent block or whatever and then just meter dumps and destroys my team...

I've also tried extremely small combos...and it does work... But sometimes it doesn't. The best thing I've found is to strike somehwere in between, using very small combos in certain situations, and very big ones in others wile keeping most around the 150-200 undizzy threshold...


But everyone is different and none of us play painwheel exactly the same. In fact most of us use different combos to one another... Pw is truly a character you can make into your own if you wish.

The only thing I'm really fairly certain of is that painwheel with BE L is in a higher tier than just about any other painwheel... At least in my opinion.
 
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as someone who has only been playing pw for about 2 weeks or so, so take my opinions on the matter with MANY grains of salt, the buer cancel into c.lk is what I do after every throw when possible. I don't think I save OTG when I do it but that's not the point, the reason I do it is to save undizzy. Like people have said damage off of throw doesn't really matter cause you want to reset fast but if you do fc j.mk then your first ground chain builds undizzy so you have less to work with when you reset into a starter that actually gives you damage.

But I think part of this just has to do with old habits; with filia for example, most people who have played filia for a while still do IAD j.lk j.hk instead of IAD j.lk fastfall c.lk even though the latter is better in almost every way because the former is what everyone was used to for so long. If the buer cancel thing was discovered/added/etc. (relatively) recently then "old-school" pw players probably just still use the confirm they've been using for years.
 
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It might be "old habits" to some degree, but MikeZ says this tech has been around for ages (he says he pointed it out sometime around beta or some crazy shit like that).

Ease of use might also be another reason. Why risk dropping something that is some degree harder than something else when the gain is miniscule?

I'd ask better players like Elda or Noah why they continue to do the j.mk way.

I just think the time spent really drilling it is better spent somewhere else. Anyone that's spending time learning this, I'd ask how their j.mp xx fly > j.mk (x2) confirms are going (or the super high j.mp foot hits). If those are fine, how are the double fly cancel j.mk burst baits going? How's the max damage corner combo doing? With PW there just always seems to be something better for me to grind out than the perfect throw conversion.
 
I am lazy. I can also hit throw>fly>j.mk nearly 100% and at this point in my playing I don't see the reason to try and learn something new to eek out however much more damage you can while at the same time risking dropping it because I didn't grind it enough. Easier time saving OTG is also a big reason.
 
I do it when I'm doing setplay in the corner, if I open you up from neutral with a throw I'm gonna do the fly into j.mk thing.
 
I do my own shit:

Throw>fly, (land) st.hp xx lk buer

I like it, it works for me. I know about all the other conversions but have picked the one I use for various reasons. I find it to be a you do you kind of thing.
 
Please solve my problem.


It doesn't matter near the corner I'll just do m buer but midscreen what do you even do from max range 2LK?

(in order to get the max range 2LK, 5MK has to whiff)

I don't even think I can fly in time to reach

also what's being shown is a character specific conversion that only works on wide characters like valentine or big band

This also happens to me EXTREMELY often but it's at a distance I can't tell is max range or not
 
I can see that resetting from the throw is better (it starts scaling the combo at 50% anyways). Thanks for the advice on resets and when to use them. I appreciate it everyone!

I think you guys are over-exaggerating a bit. This isn't even hard (I get it 100%, it took me no longer than 2min to get it down), and it saves OTG and as @Pickles mentioned it saves undizzy. The undizzy thing is huge and I didn't even consider that. If you're going to reset off the throw anyway, might as well take the conversion route that gives you the most undizzy to work with.

Just try doing throw xx j.LK Buer (you will land and nothing comes out) and hit cr.LKMK st.HP. It's super friggin easy and you can reset in stage 2 to get a big damage combo afterwards.
 
Stuff said:
Please solve my problem.


It doesn't matter near the corner I'll just do m buer but midscreen what do you even do from max range 2LK?

(in order to get the max range 2LK, 5MK has to whiff)

I don't even think I can fly in time to reach

also what's being shown is a character specific conversion that only works on wide characters like valentine or big band

This also happens to me EXTREMELY often but it's at a distance I can't tell is max range or not

So that's one of the most annoying things about PW. And that situation seems to happen all the freaking time. Especially against certain characters (Peacock and Squigly both come to mind). How do you deal with it? I usually just mk.buer xx fly and go for a set-up of sorts. If you have an assist, you might could make something happen. You might also try xx fly 6lp/lk and see if that will convert as I'm not really in a position to play the game (my computer room is now pulling double duty as the baby's room... and the little fucker goes to sleep too early).

@RaynEX I think we all agree that it is probably optimal. That said, it is such a small gain in efficiency that it will likely be one of the last things I ever practice with PW. Standard throw conversions work just fine for the vast majority of us, and I just don't think any of us care that much.
 
Stuff said:
Please solve my problem.


It doesn't matter near the corner I'll just do m buer but midscreen what do you even do from max range 2LK?

(in order to get the max range 2LK, 5MK has to whiff)

I don't even think I can fly in time to reach

also what's being shown is a character specific conversion that only works on wide characters like valentine or big band

This also happens to me EXTREMELY often but it's at a distance I can't tell is max range or not
This is the reason why I don't use buer confirm.

From that exact distance I don't know if anything can be done, but from slightly closer but still enough to wiff the lk buer or st.hp xx fly df j.lk... I just do st.hp xx fly 6j.lk xx air super.
 
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Haha yeah this is the age old argument. There are a handful of us (possibly only me and Dime) who prefer not to use the lk.buer in your first combo string. It adds about a whopping 10 damage, and it shortens your confirm range. There was some pretty vitriolic arguments about this ages ago. Of course Dime and I are correct, but... :P
 
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Spencer said:
Haha yeah this is the age old argument. There are a handful of us (possibly only me and Dime) who prefer not to use the lk.buer in your first combo string. It adds about a whopping 10 damage, and it shortens your confirm range. There was some pretty vitriolic arguments about this ages ago. Of course Dime and I are correct, but... :P

The argument for LK buer is that it frontloads your damage for no undizzy cost which, for someone that resets early, is very valuable.

For example, cLK cMK sHP fly jLK cMK sHK does 3368, 3952 with buer in the first string, with comparable ratios if you omit the cMK in the first string. The earlier you reset, the more you want buer in your first string. Its especially good on a scaled starter like jMPxxflyxxjMK or crossup jHK where buer is even better on a scaling-to-damage ratio.

So yeah, I'm pretty sure early resets and scaled confirms happen more often than those ultra long range confirms. Team buer 4 lyfe.
 
So I'm doomed then? because I'm aware of confirms for other distances but it's this one in particular that I hate because it happens often to me

(Much like some of robo's confirms)
 
Shnarfl said:
So yeah, I'm pretty sure early resets and scaled confirms happen more often than those ultra long range confirms. Team buer 4 lyfe.

So an extra 400 damage for the one time you reset in the second string vs a potentially game ending whiff? I'll eat the damage loss.

Anyway, that's the last thing I'll say on it.

@Stuff

You're not doomed. You can either drop the buer or get the confirmation skills of a god (seriously, my old man eyes wouldn't be able to actually confirm that). Depending on how often it happens, both are viable. If it is happening all the freaking time (like it does with me... seriously I actually think this makes the Squig and Pea match-ups harder), then drop it. If it happens an acceptably low amount, then keep it in.
 
Stuff said:
So I'm doomed then? because I'm aware of confirms for other distances but it's this one in particular that I hate because it happens often to me

(Much like some of robo's confirms)
If you have 2 meters you can do c.LK>s.HP>install, s.HP>L nails, dash c.MK. 1 meter lets you c.LK>s.HP>fly forward a bit, air super.

You can also use c.LK>s.HP>M buer+assist with a lot of assists, which scales your combo but still gives you that long range confirm.
 
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You can also cancel into deathcrawl then into something like cats... But I digress, I was assuming one character and no assists and one meter or less.

If you want to use a different string you can use cr.mk, cr.hp as a starter then otg with j.mk... But I don't know if that has more range or not.
 
I'm trying to find a conversion with Painwheel off H Fiber assist. I've been messing around with Updo / Pillar / Beat Extend as a DP assist, and the pick-up (whether airborne or OTG) is extreme easy and I have lots of time to confirm, even if I'm flying. H Fiber knocks the opponent up and away without a knockdown, so I'm having problems seeing how you can confirm this in the heat of battle. All I've found is jf.MP xx fly j.6MK, cr.LK etc, but I don't think it's stable at varying ranges / timings.

Is Fortune DP not good behind Painwheel or is it just me? Elda runs it so i thought I'd give it a shot
 
It's hard to say it isn't good when one of the top PW players is running it and has used it to place at big tournaments.

For PW I've found FU to be as easily convertable as most of the others. The only one that is borderline a guaranteed confirm is BE.
 
RaynEX said:
I'm trying to find a conversion with Painwheel off H Fiber assist. I've been messing around with Updo / Pillar / Beat Extend as a DP assist, and the pick-up (whether airborne or OTG) is extreme easy and I have lots of time to confirm, even if I'm flying. H Fiber knocks the opponent up and away without a knockdown, so I'm having problems seeing how you can confirm this in the heat of battle. All I've found is jf.MP xx fly j.6MK, cr.LK etc, but I don't think it's stable at varying ranges / timings.

Is Fortune DP not good behind Painwheel or is it just me? Elda runs it so i thought I'd give it a shot


Hmm.. That's funny that you say that. But are these pickups all in training mode or against decent people? I want to tell you what I think of the moves you are talking about but I don't want to taint your thinking. I will say something about fiber though:


Elda uses it, and it's a good confirm for pw. Just superjump j.mp for the conversion.

-edit

Also, though this is a combo we are talking about, this kind of discussion has more place in general discussion than the combo thread, we should probably move these kinds of question and answer things there :)
 
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RaynEX said:
I'm trying to find a conversion with Painwheel off H Fiber assist. I've been messing around with Updo / Pillar / Beat Extend as a DP assist, and the pick-up (whether airborne or OTG) is extreme easy and I have lots of time to confirm, even if I'm flying. H Fiber knocks the opponent up and away without a knockdown, so I'm having problems seeing how you can confirm this in the heat of battle. All I've found is jf.MP xx fly j.6MK, cr.LK etc, but I don't think it's stable at varying ranges / timings.

Is Fortune DP not good behind Painwheel or is it just me? Elda runs it so i thought I'd give it a shot
@Elda Taluda what do you use to convert off Fiber assist with Painwheel?
 
Not like anyone is coming up with anything all that innovative with PW combos anyway, right?
 
I like superjump j.mp fly 6j.lk j.mk s.hp L buer

edit - simple combo:

H fiber assist, superjump j.mp, fly, 6j.lk, j.mk,
s.hp, L buer, fly,
9j.lp, j.lk,
c.mp, s.hp, L nails,
jump forward j.mp, j.hp,
s.lp, s.lk, c.mp, s.hp, L buer, deathcrawl

5.8k
 
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@Dime I would try to jump forward and j.MP, or do j.MK fly j.3MK > ground confirm. But due to the height it launches + H Fiber doesn't provide much hitstun (Updo / Pillar / LBE allows you ample time with OTG in comparison) i was finding it a little trickier, that's all.

The issue I was having is that by the time I see that H Fiber has connected, the process of j.MP for the confirm takes too long (j.MP has slow start-up) and the combo would drop. I'm going to try setting the dummy to random block and attempt to confirm with some of these super jump j.MP strings. I was normal jumping before, so this could make all the difference. Thanks for the input everyone!
 
RaynEX said:
@Dime I would try to jump forward and j.MP, or do j.MK fly j.3MK > ground confirm. But due to the height it launches + H Fiber doesn't provide much hitstun (Updo / Pillar / LBE allows you ample time with OTG in comparison) i was finding it a little trickier, that's all.

The issue I was having is that by the time I see that H Fiber has connected, the process of j.MP for the confirm takes too long (j.MP has slow start-up) and the combo would drop. I'm going to try setting the dummy to random block and attempt to confirm with some of these super jump j.MP strings. I was normal jumping before, so this could make all the difference. Thanks for the input everyone!


The confirm isn't something you have to be 100% on. I see taluda bite and do the superjump jmp even when fiber is blocked on occasion... Not that much... But it does happen. What you are doing is trying to go for 100% confirmation... Try to tone it back to like 75% confirmation if that makes any kind of sense... I'm just saying you should have a slightly itchy trigger finger on the jmp, imho.

Also, fuck it, I'll tell you what I believe as far as the other assists go, many disagree with me, but besides one Chicago painwheel, I haven't seen any pw convert updo or pillar nearly as much as I (or any pw for that matter) can convert from BE L... The reasons for this are:


Converting updo and pillar in training mode is fine and easy. Call the assist then dash just as or right before the assist comes out and the conversion is easy. But in a real game you won't be able to do that easily without putting yourself into harms way. And you may come to find that if you try to react to the assist hitting that sometimes... A lot of times actually, your dash will be to slow and you won't hit the otg... But tbqh that's the GOOD news.


The BAD news is that pw basically CANT convert in a real world way when she's made to block heavy attacks just as the assist hits the opponent... Think of an enemy pw dashing in and making you block her st.hp, but you call your assist just as the st.hp touches you... The enemy painwheel goes for a ride... And your like "yes" and you dash forward to get the conversion... But painwheel doesn't move.... Yep, that's right, your still stuck in blockstun and have to wait for that blockstun to be over before you can even start your dash. By the time you recover from your blockstun and get a dash out, the opponent has already recovered. This actually happens a fair bit. I'd say at least 30-50% of my ground assist hits put me in this situation... Which means that I was losing that much damage everytime I didn't convert the assist. That actually is very important as you can imagine.

And finally, when using updo or pillar or h chair for beo or fiber for fortune... You will find that it is nigh impossible to convert these assists if you are jumping backwards and calling the assist. The assist will hit, and you will land, but by the time you get the dash out, the fact that you are so far away plus had to land, plus have a slow startup dash plus a slow pickup move in cr.lk... Theses factors all combine to make it near impossible to convert an assist hit while jumping backwards. Sure, you can fly and convert as some have said in the past... But it's more theory fighter or a rote guess that the assist will hit. If your assist gets blocked and you fly directly above your opponent. Trying to react to the hit... It isn't a good look. But feel free to try.

Finally, BE L basically covers ALL these weaknesses. And still allows for super easy otg confirms. So you can confirm from the ground or any air assist call. And no amount of blockstun will be enough to keep pw from being able to dash into an otg conversion.

It's for these reasons why I feel like BE is a great assist for pw. I can guarantee that my assist hit to conversion ratio will be better than any updo or pillar user, and more flexible than a fiber upper user.

The only way for someone to have as good a conversion ratio for pillar or updo is to autopilot a midair confirm which will leave them totally open to my own counter assist call and get them happy birthdayed for their trouble.

But don't take this to mean that pillar and updo are useless, they are far from it. They just won't have nearly as high a confirm safety and conversion ratio as BE L gives. They are still great gtfo moves and you will still be able to otg convert many of the hits that you get.


So anywho, just practice autopiloting the fiber upper conversion against the training mode dummy and against the computer till you notice that you can react without autopiloting.


Fiber upper is still a great assist for pw, as are pillar and updo, because you don't have the liability of BBs bad matchups nor his weakness of getting overheaded for free :)


-edit

Oh yeah to make it very clear since I only eluded to it before, I think you should try out all the dp assists in real matches against human opponents to get a feel for what you like best... You may have different insights to what I have, it's best to try to experiment a bit before you go all in with a full team to try to main. You want to be as happy with your eventual team as possible.
 
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