Scientist Documentation

Discussion in 'Training Diaries' started by Cadenza, Jan 30, 2015.

  1. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    s.hk counts. i was thinking of something that doesn't put them in air juggle state though(Prolly the improper use of the word but ye).
     
  2. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    Need to develop ways to make para vs val easier for me.

    I only understand that i lose neutral from j.hk adc j.mp.

    whenever i block j.hk i can never seem to AA val... i need to test this.
     
  3. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    Just looked at replays. Thanks to the slow motion cam i got some ideas.

    1. Need to be more patient and willing to dash crouchblock to make j.hk's 1st hit whiff then i can airgrab for a counter hit.

    Double i need to do more c.hp in neutral. j.hk is good. my placement is definitely off. I should try to fuzzy more and use falling j.lp or j.lk into j.mk

    Here's my footage


    Give any advice only on para vs val if possible.
     
  4. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    So after seeing that unsightly Beta thread. I've asked around for any possible beta fukua players and studying the order of things.

    Para/fu/bella(fukua mid, hirokuni)
    Fukua/double/bella(deer and sumita's team), fukua point
    Fukua/pw/band(domo) Point fukua
    Filia/double/fu(fukua anchor!!!)
    Fukua/Filia/Para(shade/twerk's adjust order).

    Based on these teams

    The correlation seems to be Fukua point or mid.


    Based on these if i was to pick up fukua again I should devise a team that is Well suited for what i think that fukua could be used for.

    Referencing Chris G morridoom base I most likely need something like H beam or H or L shot.
     
  5. gllt

    gllt Dedicated

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    gllt
    Valentine
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    I feel a lot of people preferred/prefer point Robo for good reasons, but it's hard to overlook the DHC to beam for it's utility in damage. Even after her damage nerfs, they were all to normals IIRC, so her DHC to beam super damage is still there.

    Fukua with HBeam was really good.

    I wonder if Fukua/Robo/x is promising enough for you.

    Fireball into magnet may not be terrible as a get out, unsure. Fireball into beam super is going to be good as a damage dhc perhaps.

    If you can generate enough meter, I'd see if you can work towards 3 way dhcs as your true 'safe' dhc.
    Fireball > Beam > Something else that will add onto the chip situation if possible and leave you plus after the DHC from beam. (Catheads? You could run LBomber. This won't overshadow Drill for Robo and HBeam will fill a different slot for fukua/double than their respective assists for each other.)

    Just some thoughts. Hope you don't mind them.

    EDIT

    fu/ro/do lbomber/clide/whatever bomber
    fu/ro/ce copter, dhc doesn't fit the 3 way idea, but then you just dhc to det mode instead
    fu/ro/pa shot, 3 way dhcs might work, beam/shot both get low profiled by fortune and others as assists.
    fu/ro/pea new lenny may be an interesting dhc choice and you circle back into zoning. bomb assists cover the ground that hbeam is above.

    etc etc
     
  6. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    There is also an idea of running fukua/para/double

    I do a case study on Fukua/robo/Double and see what it provides.
     
  7. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
  8. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
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    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    It is definitely apparent, that my double is quite Newish and i hope to get her in top shape soon.

    I need to learn how to better protect space with double and press my buttons accordingly.
     
    gllt likes this.
  9. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
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    Parasoul
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    Double

    If anyone can provide insights on double that i am missing. it would be helpful!
     
  10. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
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    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
  11. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
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    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    played double point for today and i can see where i am lacking.

    Not using c.hp as an AA at times.
    Doing H luger at the wrong times.

    I do have problems when i want to A2A someone when they are up in my face and that's an issue i need to solve
     
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  12. gllt

    gllt Dedicated

    Steam:
    gllt
    Valentine
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Re: AA
    Your jab may feel subpar at times but don't be afraid to try it when it's an obvious solution. Eliza's big normals get hit by anything, so it's lacking hitbox won't matter, only it's speed and timing will count. Otherwise, cHP and HLuger are definitely your go to tools for AA.

    AAing with sHK or cMP are often just goofs but cMP has some validity vs stuff like Beo jHP. AAing with LLuger is important to convert off of. MLuger just happens and you can dash cLK near/in the corner usually. AA sHP is pretty okay when it happens but planning for it is not something you're probably going to do, just accept the knockdown or do LLuger otg cLK in the corner. I'd say HLuger but sometimes LLuger, while harder to convert from, is eaiser to connect on something right in front of your face than wagering on the ground bounce animation and HLuger bullet arc deciding to have fun and dance around each other. I should've done sLP LLuger Car earlier to win a match where I died to air super coming down on me and tried to go from jab into HLuger like an idiot.

    Re: A2A
    You have
    Fortune jLP (fast, small, in their grill, callout dashjump jLP into someone's face into item drop+assist is a way to shut someone down)
    Filia jMP (below you, you should know what this button is for. Fukua has it just like sLP.)
    Reverse Para jbLK (can fill spots jMP does but nets you a bit more distance, vertical effectiveness, vacuum, and awkward hurtboxes)
    Val jMK1 and 2 (jMK1 is incredible as an A2A for both chars, go examine the hitbox. upback jMK is a valid approach tool when you're expecting an A2A interaction and want to come from beneath them or at their level as if you had a jank IAD jMK.)
    You already know jHP is slower and what it's for.
    Peacock jHK shouldn't be underestimated vs certain chars/situations in A2A.
    You also have air throw. Air throw is the answer sometimes.
    You also have item drops. I'd say barrel and teacup with the right assists are low key powerful A2A tools with the right jump/dashjump arcs or momentum cancels from jMK.

    Or choosing to stay with AA instead of jumping for the A2A. But Double players already love the AA life and opponents will learn to work around it and force you into the A2A situations in order to keep things from being too predictable. So yeah. I'd assume this is already why you're being forced into A2A situations when you have HLuger is that people are sniffing you out now. cHP is still amazing though. Don't forget dash normals. Backdash counts too, especailly with ridiculous buttons like cHP. Minor changes in spacing and affect a lot if you have time for microdash normals without putting yourself at risk of getting hit.

    Something you didn't ask about but I'm gonna talk about: jMK1

    If you wonder why I do the wild jMK1 conversions, its because the high hitstun means I can improv some sort of conversion off these random A2As when I'm unsure of a more sensible conversion working because

    A) not sure if otg is gone, or it is
    B) hluger bounce is gone
    C) can puddle or afraid puddle will whiff because of weird hurtboxes/no otg/juggle height
    D) wary of converting from some of the above options
    E) not sure if assist is ready/cant convert with it because sj or dj or locked out/want to save it for a better purpose

    jMK chains off jLP, jLK, and jMP. jMP chains off jLP and jLK. It's the best normal for keeping the opponent at the desirable height before chaining into jMK1 jHK (fast fall) rejump > jLP. Happy birthday sitautions vary depending on weight combination and you might have to use jLK to push heavy characters up. (jLK jMK fast fall jLP jLK jMK fast fall sMP/whatever as opposed to jMP jMK ff jLP jMP jMK ff medium launcher jLK jMP jMK ff medium heavy > snap or something)

    Otherwise, Double is going to convert from A2A by

    A) Chaining into jHK into rejump > barrel restand (either jHK Barrel of some sort or item drop+assist that restands/juggles)
    B) Chaining into jHP into rejump light into either barrel loop or jHP loop or whatever else
    C) Chaining into barrel/fridge > puddle > juggle (fridge can whiff, be warned)
    D) Chaining into jHK > land > HLuger (this is good and other players use it and it scares me. my timing is bad. ehh.)
    E) Not converting and just doing a dashunder/air throw/non commital assist thing/whatever/callout with gun because you know they mash as SOON as they get hit
    F) jHP directly into slide at specific heights, not gonna happen a ton maybe I guess??
    G) Item drop right off the a2a into puddle/otg/whatever, I trust barrel the most for this but I don't always trust this unless I feel I have no choice (something is pretty high above me and I got A2A jLP, barrel might connect where nothinge else will. wouldn't trust on squigs, would do to wide asses any day.)
    H) restanding right off your A2A into ground normals. It happens with stuff like jHP and jMP, sometimes jLK, etc.

    I dunno big post.
     
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  13. Pickles

    Pickles VT scene?

    Location:
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    Pickles (/id/shamanlord)
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    Filia
    Double
    Unknown
    my opinions on AA/A2A (this will be a shorter post than gllt's):

    AA:
    obviously c.hp is OD, c.hp M/L gun stops so many approaches its not even funny and even if you do c.hp predictively and they dont run into it then the gun covers you handily. I actually think H gun is a little overrated (if they avoid or land cancel it you are in a very bad spot) but its good against a lot of approaches too. like gllt said, L luger can be better than H luger in a lot of spots. pickup off L luger as you've probably seen doubles do is dash c.lk c.hp flesh step (dash vs some chars) s.lp into whatever. (starting with dash s.mp c.hp instead gives you a better combo cause it doesn't burn both your lights but that's something I've only been trying in lab recently, idk if its fast enough to be used reliably as a confirm tool in match)

    A2A:

    i dont really think j.lk is that good A2A cause of hitbox, IMO main A2As are j.lp, j.mp, j.mk, j.hp at the good spacings, j.hk. I think gllt underestimates this last button a bit, lowkey j.hk is one of double's best buttons (maybe not lowkey), covers a TON of space, only downside is its hard to really confirm into a combo if it hits but avery doesnt. j.mk is a button I dont use enough but i see a fair number of doubles do, gllt probably uses it the most but its certainly a strong tool (not just for A2A but that would be getting a little off topic). As far as converting off A2A, like gllt said u see doubles confirm into j.hk then H luger but that's hard, I usually do into j.hp rejump j.lp j.mk barrel/fridge and go from there. j.hp is weird though sometimes since if ur too low to the ground you don't get all your hits so be wary of that. OTHER IMPORTANT THING TO NOTE. at some heights where j.hp is unreliable or whatever j.hk will be your best option. BUT IF YOU LAND WHILE AVERY IS HITTING HE EATS YOUR STAGE 2 CHAIN. it's dumb and idk if its intentional but it happens and its annoying so if you have to use j.hk to confirm be ready to reset earlier or at least adjust ur combo accordingly. (side note i found while just testing the stuff i was saying here: i was gonna say after j.mp its hard to use j.hp cause you end up low to ground but if you cancel j.mp early then you can use j.hp so basically if you're using j.mp to A2A press j.hp within the first 1-2 hits dont confirm off just the j.mp is the moral here) some heights if you go into j.hp you will be ok to just jab so sometimes you don't even have to use stage 2 on a 2nd air chain which is always nice.
     
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  14. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    Just played a "set" (i RQ'd due to air scapels being air scapels).

    I fucking suck at that aspect and I am sick of it. I want to kill the spirit of anyone that resorts to air scapels. so i will be in training mode for it.

    Particularly during air scapels out of resets
     
  15. Liam

    Liam ... Administrator

    Location:
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    Skarmand
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    Robo Fortune
    Double
    If you can find an air chain that doesn't combo by a few frames then that should auto frame trap air scalpels since it has vulnerable start up.
     
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  16. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

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    I don't get being mad about reversal air scalpels of all things. Like Liam says you can stuff the startup, and you also have the option of resetting on the ground where Valentine's reversal options aren't as strong. You can also try doing a left/right mixup to reverse their inputs... granted they can input the scalpels the opposite direction, but they still have to guess the side.
     
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  17. gllt

    gllt Dedicated

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    If you were fighting Donovan, I just taught him to EKG instead too. So you should prepare to anti-EKG as well as anti-scalpels since EKG is better.
    I just know he thinks reversal air scalpels is the greatest and I told him in our last set why its bad. I can imagine if any Val was doing scalpels, it was him.

    Even if not, yeah. You can beat scalpels. So watch out for EKG when you beat scalpels and they mash the better reversal next time.
     
  18. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    I will provide footage. I fought spike.
    There are aspects of air scapels that i just flat out do not agree should be the case.

    This is simply another thing i need to destroy and i shall do that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
  19. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
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    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    just played casuals using PW/double/Para

    L pinion(might switch to M pinion)/ L bomber/ L shot(might switch to Hshot)

    team is fun as fuck
     
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  20. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
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    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    after talking to a few folks the fukua team i will run is....

    Fukua/Robo/Double
    H drill/Hbeam/ L bomer.


    The time has come!
     
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  21. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    Playing fukua/robo/double atm

    THIS TEAM IS GODDDDDDD totally playing it
     
  22. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
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    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    For para/fi/dub

    if i do a double snap. instead of tagging in double. i should tag in filia cause filia with all of her assist is more potent than double/ H shot i think.
     
  23. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
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    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    Official team for fukua

    Fukua/Robo/Para
     
  24. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
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    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    so trying out para/peacock/double

    i just found out that H shot does exactly what peacock gets to do...

    the @mcpeanuts thingy.

    s.lp c.mp + assist, s.hp m item, (Shot fires), walk up s.mk, j.lk(3), j.hk.

    I'll play around with this team some more but i thought i would write this down for w.e reason.
     
  25. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
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    Nice find! I've tested my setup with many assists but couldn't get it to work with that one. Just be careful; it's 3 chains, so the last one can trigger undizzy, meaning you can't loop it infinitely the way I do. If you could somehow combo into j.MK j.HK, that would be optimal, but I doubt shot gives you the hitstun for that.
     
  26. Lawnba

    Lawnba Active Member

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    Lawnba
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    as a matter of fact shot has enough hitstun to let you combo in to that.
     
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  27. Lawnba

    Lawnba Active Member

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    Peacock
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    it's been a while since I used H shot with Peacock but I've always felt that L shot was better for her.
     
  28. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    I do like L shot. however H shot allows conversions with double with M luger, c.lk c.hp.

    so its more for the overall synergy of the team
     
  29. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
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    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    yeaah after playing peck....i am NOT playing peacock.

    gonna stick with para fi dub
    and fuk/robo/para.
     
  30. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Steam:
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    Double
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    I'm crying. again
     
  31. Pickles

    Pickles VT scene?

    Location:
    Vermont
    Steam:
    Pickles (/id/shamanlord)
    PSN:
    PS_Shamanlord (but I rarely use this for SG)
    Filia
    Double
    Unknown
    listen peanuts we can't all be spammers like you some of us have to fight with honor alright
     
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  32. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
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    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    I fight with honor and integrity. Fuck the cock
     
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  33. gllt

    gllt Dedicated

    Steam:
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    Valentine
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    just play uptilt my guy
     
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  34. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    Seriously giving big band an honest shot.

    Playing fukua/double/band at the moment. hopefully, fukua/robo/band as well.

    Its a learning experience. will take a look at the compendium
     
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  35. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
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    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double

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