Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

[Mike_Z]

Air SBO when

Please contribute constructively. :^| The entire rest of SH is there if you really just need to say some inane junk. :^P

Does H Divekick need to hit assists?

H divekick already doesn't work after airthrows, the choice would be M probably...I mean, I guess I could MAKE H work after airthrows, but then where'd all the other options go.

 

[skull person]

Please contribute constructively. :^| The entire rest of SH is there if you really just need to say some inane junk. :^P


H divekick already doesn't work after airthrows, the choice would be M probably...I mean, I guess I could MAKE H work after airthrows, but then where'd all the other options go.

Well the current option is do M every time unless you want a tick from L. (Wait does L hit as OTG, I guess if it does then ignore this, wait do people use OTG L already?! I don't know anything anymore.)
H working would be do H every time, instead of M, and L being the same purpose.
Yeah it feels worse to have "Don't do this one, it's worse than this one" rather than "This one doesn't work here so use M."
Her ground throw conversions are sometimes wonky and specific so maybe more damage from air grab isn't so bad.

Idk I don't play sqoogly, maybe Fuzzy will come up with something.

 

[BigEffinDud]

Like...I get that people who initially picked her up may have done so because of rushdown, and therefore you might not like that she's a good zoner. You may enjoy her less because she's not as rushdown focused. This stuff I'm willing to listen to.

But I'm REALLY DAMN TIRED of people equating "requires thought on offense" with "has no offense". All that statement really says, is something about your ability to open people up. Try actually using the tools she has first, rather than just complaining because the tools she used to have are gone.

Mike... Just give us +1 on s.MP hold and make s.LP->s.LP some kind of plus advantage and I'm happy. I don't disagree with your changes, best disagreeing with how far you went

 

[zarkingphoton]

I like zoning Robo Fortune. A lot. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. You have a character that shoots lasers, missiles, places mines, and as a head that shoots forwards, and YOU WANT TO RUSH IN!? SMDH, people.

 

[BigEffinDud]

I like zoning Robo Fortune. A lot. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. You have a character that shoots lasers, missiles, places mines, and a has head that shoots forwards, and YOU WANT TO RUSH IN!? SMDH, people.

Nah just want better normals up close

 

[zarkingphoton]

Nah just want better normals up close

Plus zero is fiiiiiiiine. It's absolutely guaranteed safe. There is nothing that anybody can do in response to blocking flex capacitor that you can't get out of. You'll be able to jump any throw, block any low, etc. And djc nonsense was just complete unga. Hell, Peacock's point blank LK George had to get nerfed into just being slightly minus for some reason. It's still fine, and I still do it. I'd KILL for it to be frame neutral, but even at minus two(?), it's still okay to do if you don't abuse it.

 

[KhaosMuffins]

Nah just want better normals up close

You need to pay more attention to this section.

Let me spell this out for you: All of her buttons that are +0, can chain at any time into s.HP, which has a hit of armor and is VERY FAST. +0 is not punishable, it is safe. She has a normal speed s.LP, which means the only characters that can poke out without trading are Filia and Fortune. She has L Danger, which beats tons of fast pokes. And this is IGNORING s.HP, which is the option you use to check your opponent's desire to press things after you do something that's negative unsafe neutral on block.

There's more than simply just normals. You have multiple options to keep up pressure using head specials, and options to blow up the opponent's attempts to try and reverse pressure with s.HP. You just have to put in more thought than just, "s.LP... s.LP > s.MP... s.LP... grab."

I'm also a fan of Robo being more zoning-focused. I agree with all that Liam said.

 

[severine]

hey my DPs are slick my 62387s however are not.

(see my 376231's in SC2 tho)

 

[keninblack]

I don't play her but honestly if she becomes more zoner based i'd really want to pick her up.

I am ALL for the game having a more diverse roster across the board. Having another zoner is super cool in my eyes.

The amount of times i've had players from other fighting games go "Hey I want to play a fast paced but wild defensive/keepaway character that can truly zone and keep them at full screen! What are my options?!

"Peacock!"

"What else? What about Para-"

"Just Peacock!"

Being able to say Peacock AND Robo would be so cool, her zoning has so many layers to it and is so cool to me I dunno i'm all for the changes really.

It IS SG after all, Double's mixup game on the ground is literally low/throw so i'm almost positive Robo will still be a threat offensively. She just won't be capable of doing it at the efficiency she was doing in the earlier phase of the beta, which was pretty od.

The game has 12 characters that are all about being up close/mid range, I think we can afford another character that likes to be full screen.

 

[TAlbiC]

Throwing in my two cents on the Squigly airthrow thing.

I personally like h divekick to hit assists because it means you can sideswitch both the point and the assist to get a snap easier (granted, she already has stuff to snap midscreen with seria sing if you know how to set it up/have the right assist). Primarily, I was wondering if m divekick could retain its hitbox after hitting an assist. This might be a little dangerous since there may or may not be a possibility that you get the point and assist in a combo off of airthrow, but the more potential ideas the better (assuming they're realistic).

 

[zarkingphoton]

I've been practicing a tiny bit of Eliza, and while I'm not entirely sure of which special I'd prefer to do assists with, I'd like to leave both options open. FWIW, tho, my DP's are tighter than yours. Jus sayin'.

 

[havick9]

With sliding you can still confirm into it, you just don't get it as OTG

can't magnet sliding people

Edit: oh you probably can but w/m laser recovery doesn't let you do it

 

[Mike_Z]

can't magnet sliding people
Edit: oh you probably can but w/m laser recovery doesn't let you do it

Yes, but you can cancel into Magnet and it works fine.

I was wondering if m divekick could retain its hitbox after hitting an assist.

Nope!
The choice is NOT hitting the assist. I could even go so far as "not hitting the assist when cancelled into off airthrow". But hitting Big Band and continuing on to hit crouching PW ain't happenin'.

 

[havick9]

Yes, but you can cancel into Magnet and it works fine.

yeah you can do that but good luck hit confirming it consistently

edit: maybe increase the super cancel window

 

[TAlbiC]

The choice is NOT hitting the assist. I could even go so far as "not hitting the assist when cancelled into off airthrow". But hitting Big Band and continuing on to hit crouching PW ain't happenin'.

At this point I'd personally rather have "not hitting the assist when cancelled off air throw," or nothing past that. This is icing to a fine character anyways, especially with the recent QoL changes.

 

[Mike_Z]

yeah you can do that but good luck hit confirming it consistently

I (and other people) confirm off single hits in 3s, which is under 8f. This is 10 or 11 with frameskip. All you're doing is deciding whether or not to hit buttons based on the hitspark.
It's moderately hard but not impossible by any means.

edit: maybe increase the super cancel window

Maybe, only in Det Mode. Maybe.

 

[PME]

I'm.... in a weird spot about Robo.

When Robo was first announced, I was excited to finally leave my solo ways and pick up a potential keepaway character, since Peacock's keepaway game didn't feel good to me. As we know, she didn't fully turn into that, but players still tried to play her this way, especially by placing her on point with proper assists behind her. It's easy for me to see why those specific people are 100% for these changes. I like them a lot too. Having better reversal options was also great.

As for those that realized her rushdown game was stronger are, of course, against the upclose button nerfs. For many of those that put over a year into playing her this way, feel like all of that work is going down the drain, myself included. But that's not actually true, it's more that her up close game has to be changed quite a bit from before into a style that favors frame traps and pushblock baits over super + buttons that can lead into more pressure. It's not like she didn't gain anything on that front either, c.MK and s.HP changes are big.

I should be happy that she's turning into the type of character that I originally wanted her to be, but I have mixed feelings about it. In order for Robo to gain anything, something had to be lost, that's just the truth of it all. So in the end I'm... neutral about this so far? After seeing all the changes to her as a whole, and considering everyone's current opinion of her, I don't know on which spectrum I want to stand at objectively. But one thing is clear, both sides need to chill out and stop lashing at each other.

However Robo ends up turning out, I'll just adapt and play her in the most optimal way, the same way I did back then.

Changes to Robo now?

increase the super cancel window [on lv3 L/M lasers]

If anything should get an increase to that window, I think it should be to L Danger on hit > Magnet, so as to not catch them with Magnet, but instead make it a bit easier to convert into a combo without waiting for the otg bounce. Which in a lot of cases means I'm gonna be burning up my grounded LP use to help convert.

Maybe, only in Det Mode

If that mode gets anything, can it be high properties on DJCs? That, or previous Salvo recovery speed?

WHAT about new Robo do you* like less?
* that's you, everyone.

uhh... maybe that it's a lot harder to go into super laser after Robo lands from Det mode explosion I guess? A buffer window maybe?

 

[gllt]

@Liam I've always did airthrow otg LDive then >

A) do they fall out of sLK sHK? no? do that
B) do they fall out of sLK sHK? yes? sLK sHP1 Chord (the 1 hit is safest if you're unsure imo)
C) the assist is there. welp. (i never minded this too much i mean it sucks but i totally get why people don't like this for sure.)
D) assist isn't there but I forgot which conversion works, sLK delay cMK/fHP thanks woofly stole this from you somewhere hmfhfmfhpmhpm

I think the divekick always hits otg? fwiw. I'm also not a real squigly player. I'm still working on it. I'm not good enough to make a judgement on what I'm about to ask that is fair and well informed, which is why I want to ask it.

How do people even feel about her divekick frame data? Just curious. Do Squigly players feel LDive and MDive both fill good roles? Not that I guess they have to, 'dead' (less useful, really, I find uses) specials exist, just curious. I always felt they filled obvious and different roles, so more of what I'm asking is that do any of you just pick one over the other strictly and why? How do you feel about her divekicks in general?

I would think I wouldn't have to ask this, and maybe I don't, but then I remember talking to people who play Squigly and hearing different opinions about how much you should divekick, why, where, on hit/block/height being the reasonings for/against (makes sense, it's a divekick.) and it makes me wonder if anyone actually has anything to say about them because I wanna hear what people think about a very defining tool of Squigly that hasn't changed much AFAIK. Do you feel like you've settled for less or do you feel like you've never had to because it's always been good/just right, so to speak?

@zeknife @Fuzzy_Snugs @Adeveis @Yaya @TAlbiC [ @Cadenza *] @Bigtonney @Morahan @imsurprisedirememberthismanysquiglyplayerswithoutevencountingsonicfoxplayingherwithbeoforthatdhc @u?

Yeah.

*(since you played her quite a bit and offered a lot of advice re: divekick spacing once)

Edit: Also, for anyone that feels they constantly fight good Squigly players, how do you feel about them? Anyone that fights Fuzzy or Yaya a lot, etc, you get the idea.

 

[Raging_Zoroark]

I know I'm very far from being considered even a decent player, but I decided to give my two cents on this matter.

Firstly, I would like to say that I picked up Robo Fortune because I found interesting it's capability to switch between zoning and rushdown in the middle of the match, confusing the opponent and creating an interesting playstyle that can vary greatly between the players that use her. When the patch initially came I confess I jumped into conclusions too early because of the reduced damage on her normals because I thought that Robo had lost all her capacity to rushdown and become just a Peacock 2.0 with less damage and more mobility. Then players like Receita and Fenster helped me to see that I was wrong and I could still play it the way I enjoyed with slight adjustments to my playstyle and I was starting to like Robo again.

The only thing I don't like about Robo Fortune right now is how far the opponent goes with the new throw. I don't know how many assists can help you to convert meterless now (if any) but it's less than before, that's for sure. Getting a grab now would be high risk/low reward because spending meter with the new (reduced) damage doesn't seems a good idea. I don't mind the frame data change because I was playing a hit and run style and I used to play her as a point character backed up by Squigly's c.HP so I can still pressure people.

I understand that people may want another zoning character because we have only one pure zoner right now, but turning a long stabilished character into something it wasn't before will certainly upset some of her mains (and rightfully so). If Parasoul was turned into a pure zoner (bigger/ multi hit napalm explosions, better ship damage, faster napalm tears at the cost of worse normals, for example) Para mains would complain for sure.

I may have said a lot of nonsense, but that just my opinion. In fact, I was planning on staying out of the discussion (since I'm not a tournament player, not even good tbh), but since Mike asked the opinion of the Robo Fortune players and as a former R. Fortune main, I decided to make this post. Thanks for the attention.

 

[mcpeanuts]

I had a chance to try out the new Peacock changes. I like them a lot. The P > K priority change is my favorite, which I didn't expect since I had no strong opinions on that one way or the other when Mike originally asked. After actually trying it out though I realize it gives me midscreen meterless conversions off M Gun, which seems really useful. qcb+assist giving item drop instead of fake teleport is also really good, since s.HP > H item + Hornet Bomber is already something I did a lot for zoning, and now I can make that a lot tighter. I am also a big fan of the L teleport change, although I feel like it's probably not staying. c.LK and c.MP buffs seem very good from messing around in training mode but it'll probably take a while for me to get used to using them. The damage nerfs seem fair, I'm now getting 9.5k for one bar which, well, I'll manage somehow.

The only real suggestion I have is more visual feedback when projectiles hit Lenny. There's no hitstop or hitsparks so Lenny is just sort of sliding across the floor at them. It's not a big deal I guess but it looks really strange. I've been told there's also no audio cue that Lenny is getting hit, but since I play with sound off I'll have to take their word for that one.

Also I'd prefer for Robo to be a dedicated zoner. There's a ton of characters who can do what she does in retail. Beta Robo is a kind of character the game doesn't already have and I find it a lot more interesting to watch/play against.

 

[Cadenza]

No comment on squigs.

 

[Mr Peck]

I've been staying out of this thread for the most part because I work for LZ (even though I only work on Indivisible, not SG), but I figured I'd jump in to say that I play Robo because I want to make her work as a zoner. The beta changes make her one of my favorite characters in the game but if she ends up going back to the way she was in retail, I can't see myself sticking with her.

 

[alexpi]

As much as I'd like to be able to combo after an air throw with squigly when I correctly call the jump + assist, it seems like there's not a good way to do it. Maybe make air-throw and untechable knockdown like Fukua's? That way you still get a reward for correctly throwing and can still combo if there's no assist out there. Probably too good, but I figure spitballing ideas is better than no ideas.

RE: Parasoul fireworks. How about making her taunt set off fireworks? Hell, if it's not hard, it'd kinda be neat if all taunts set off fireworks on the Arena stage.

 

[KTFS]

WHAT about new Robo do you* like less?

I play Robo and ironically, the thing I like the least about is the laser chipping.
Why do people still have to take more than half the damage when they correctly block it?

Ignoring Robo, Skullgirls has 2 rushdown characters, 1 zoner and 10 characters who space normals and specials to look for a way to get their offence started when it's good for them.

I'm sure Peacock is the zoner. Who's the two rushdown characters@@? Filia? Fortune?
Not a fan of this categorization. You have rushdown and zoning as play styles, yes
but I'm not sure you can just put the rest as one other style; they all have their own styles, we just probably don't have names for them.
Even zoning's got different kinds of zoning I believe, like mid-range with super long normals kind of zoning,
fill the screen with slow projectile kind of zoning, don't move or I'll snipe you with super fast projectiles kind of zoning, and others.
I mean, if Robo's gonna zone, what moves do people use? Probably beams, occasionally head, and then more beams.
that's...kind of monotonous.
I say if Robo's gonna be a zoner, give her something more than a beam
give her like grenades, straight missiles, bombs dropping down from helicopter, head satellite, head shield (like leaf shield)...anything
I mean, she's a robot, shouldn't she have a more versatile collections of fire weaponry?
...OK, I'll stop daydreaming now.

Oh, well I can fix Mortuary Drop to not do that, that's easy.

Wow, really? You're such a nice person!
Though, I'm starting to feel this Squigly change may be too good.
I don't know, maybe people who fight Squigly a lot can say more?
This, to me, is equivalent of PW being able to call assist while charging stingers or Fortune being able to call assist during head callback.
I think it's only fair if they all get the change or none of them get the change.
No opinion on the air throw thing.

I feel there's a lot of scenario specific changes in this patch instead just being uniform
like more hitstop on heavy characters only, break assist armor but not point, do this only at mid-screen or do that only in corner...
These are really nice to the players but I can only imagine that it's a pain in the ass to progress all these crap@@
I guess what I'm trying to say is thank you for all the hard work :)

 

[zeknife]

I don't see any downsides to one of squigly's divekicks ignoring assists when cancelled into from air throw
The light version might be the most pragmatic since they both have the same effect on otg anyway

 

[mcpeanuts]

I mean, if Robo's gonna zone, what moves do people use? Probably beams, occasionally head, and then more beams.
that's...kind of monotonous.
I say if Robo's gonna be a zoner, give her something more than a beam
give her like grenades, straight missiles, bombs dropping down from helicopter, head satellite, head shield (like leaf shield)...anything
I mean, she's a robot, shouldn't she have a more versatile collections of fire weaponry?
...OK, I'll stop daydreaming now.

Things like L Danger are zoning tools too. When someone jumps because they expected a beam, but you didn't shoot a beam, you can now anti air their jump in with L Danger. It's a situation you create by getting the opponent to respect the option of your ground beams.

If you really think it's boring, try zoning out a good player who plays a really mobile character like Valentine. I don't think you'll be bored.

 

[Mr Peck]

And RAM, mines and missiles are more than "beams, occasionally head, and then more beams" imo. I use all three of them regularly while zoning, especially now that they've been buffed in the beta. Not to mention j.HP and her amazing mobility.

 

[Tank]

@ robo changes you like least.
S.mp not being plus on block.

Can detonation mode keep all her old up close pressure intact since that's the time where she needs to be up close? Even bring back j.hk being an overhead while in detmode. Possibly make detmode last longer too since doing magnet slam makes it detonate.

I like that she zones better but while in detmode zoneing is the last thing on my mind.

 

[KTFS]

Things like L Danger are zoning tools too. When someone jumps because they expected a beam, but you didn't shoot a beam, you can now anti air their jump in with L Danger. It's a situation you create by getting the opponent to respect the option of your ground beams.

And RAM, mines and missiles are more than "beams, occasionally head, and then more beams" imo. I use all three of them regularly while zoning, especially now that they've been buffed in the beta. Not to mention j.HP and her amazing mobility.

Clearly I know nothing about zoning XD
I don't know, I play 90% rushdown Robo and everything I did in retail they still work in beta (previous build)
in fact I get better setups in beta thanks to the changes, just with a lot less damage and needing to reset a couple more times
sHP is still a really good move for baiting attack, general lock down and precise reversal, with proper assist that is
So I guess rushdown Robo can still work with some adjustments...or maybe I don't know anything about Robo Fortune= ="

 

[WarpedEcho]

I would prefer new robo to be about zoning out the opponent. I like the idea of adding adding more rushdown centric things to det mode such as high djc, but I'm not married to it either.

edit: A robot who sole purpose is to zone might start behaving differently when she's malfunctioning and about to explode too. For the lore :]

 

[Adeveis]

Can't fix it unless you want one of the strengths of divekick to not hit assists at all. ??

Darn! I was really hoping that wasn't the answer

Maybe make air-throw and untechable knockdown like Fukua's? That way you still get a reward for correctly throwing and can still combo if there's no assist out there. Probably too good, but I figure spitballing ideas is better than no ideas.

That's really scary

I don't see any downsides to one of squigly's divekicks ignoring assists when cancelled into from air throw
The light version might be the most pragmatic since they both have the same effect on otg anyway

I'd be wiling to try it.

 

[SugarDots]

On the topic of Ms. Fortune's buffs/nerfs, I couldn't be happier that she can finally control her head manually! I always wanted this. Having to kick the head around like a soccer ball before felt less intuitive than what's in place now. This will take some time to adapt into my play style, but I know it will be worth it.

I'm mixed about the damage nerfs. It's a heavy case of give and take, sacrificing some damage to give us larger windows to cancel moves like her s.HP. (Which feels awesome now, by the way.) Again, this will take time to adapt to, so I'm glad the beta exists to help us prepare.

I like zoning Robo Fortune. A lot. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. You have a character that shoots lasers, missiles, places mines, and as a head that shoots forwards, and YOU WANT TO RUSH IN!? SMDH, people.

I echo everyone on Robo-Fortune evolving into a zoning character. Like PME, I wasn't interested in Peacock and always wanted an alternative zoning character that could go toe-to-toe against Peacock. Robo-Fortune fills that void quite nicely now! She still does fair chunks of damage thanks to her faster cancel windows, while easily keeping the pressure on other zoners with her lasers, missiles, and mines.

Robo-Fortune was in need of a rebalance anyway. (She felt slow in general.) Now she's so much more fun and satisfying.

 

[Tank]

Shoot make detonation mode really scary. all head specials decently track your opponent even mine. That way robo as a detmode assist can do more than just L/M laser.

 

[Lightning]

Air SBO when

When Parasoul gets Air Napalm Pillar.

 

[Calexe]

can you then make the m shadow bounce like how it was when it was first implemented and not the big bounce one we had before this change?

I agree, the current bounce is really hard to confirm... argh

 

[Stuff]

I don't mind most robo nerfs but could she please have meterless throw conversions again? I don't feel like there's much reward when I have no bars and just beam them since I don't want them to tech. (going back to neutral is fine to me but I like the idea of actually doing damage for doing the right thing)
It's 6k vs 1.3k it just seems unnecessary to also remove her throw conversion with all the other stuff removed.
To me it just looks like low/throw is less scary.

I dunno maybe I should just use the new throw range to get a head or something resources are cool too

 

[Bigtonney]

@gllt From air throw you can't save otg and very low airthrows vs heavies are kinda to convert because the first lk tends to whiff. And i actually don't know why you shouldn't be using Mdive off airthrow since it's 100 dmg and makes the next groud string much easier.
I feel like LDive should be faster so it's better as a movement tool (may help maneuvering in peacock's maze?) rather than MDive, which is essentially for combos. For this reason, each time i hit someone with LDive i instantly regret it because i can't combo off of it so i tend to use Mdive most of the time and Ldive for resets, so yeah it feels less useful.
Gravedigger is fine, i'd love to see it break normal armor (not Sekmet or Tubatuba, waaay too good) so there is a reward doing that divekick you can die from it.

Another move i feel it's much more "dead" is normal Tremolo... It's the only move on squigly's kit that i never see being used and it seems to me just a less damaging ender compared to the other stuff she generally does, and as assist is underwhelming. How about make it hit low the first hit like Serio? i don't see it as too good since you still need Opera or corner to get a follow up.

 

[Lex]

1.For Valentine, sMK(1) -> sHP combos in normal circumstances, so does sLK -> sHP and sMP(1) -> sHP
but if I freeze the opponent with syringe-less counter super, these links don't work anymore.

So, LK, HP still doesn't work after a counter super, was there no way to fix this?

Speaking of Val's counter, this happens now (I don't think @Fedora_Ninja posted this here?):

So, I wanted to ask what people think of Val's green vial affecting the hitstun of the opponent when they are otg'd (e.g. otg LK for instance). This would probably give her a couple cool new combo things she can do with green vial but the primary thing it would allow is that it would make her midscreen meterless airthrow conversion practical if you have a green vial loaded. Currently I think this is one of the few things types of hitstun that green vial doesn't affect. Maybe that would be too good, but I wanted to see what people's opinion on it is anyway.

I wanted to bring this back up for discussion since when I first suggested it, everyone was talking about Beowulf hype stuff so it was kind of glossed over.

 

[MegamanDS]

Wow, I didn't realize there was more than a handful of rush robo players. That puts a smile on my face. I thought I was sailing in my own boat. But ya, without writing a wall of text, I agree with what the others said. I always treated her as a cable where I could keep away but I can also pressure with drones assist and try to get those pokes in while putting stuff on screen.



Rushdown
- throw is high risk - super low reward midscreen, especially with damage nerfs
- st. fp 80% 85%!? combo nerf
- dj overhead is gone

Those are the big ones that effected my (and now I see many others) gameplay that I dedicated so much time and effort to for the past yearish?

Keepaway
- lasers from full screen are too fast
- level 3 instant blow up on alpha counter is too strong (oh you tried to hit me and I blocked? Eat a level 3 with full combo followup)
- random super from full screen is too random strong and almost unpunishable (with no meter) though this has been day 1 robo. I know Wing expresses this concern to me everytime I hit him with it and I giggle on the inside but agree at the same time.

Those are 3 things from each side that, in my opinion, may need to balance or compromise. The other changes I think are either less significant or was a fine compromise. I'm willing to trade the top 3 for the bottom 3. But I'd would like to see if other hybrid or rush robos agree

 

[KTFS]

Speaking of Val's counter, this happens now (I don't think @Fedora_Ninja posted this here?):

Spoiler

Sorry if I'm missing something. What is wrong here?