Discussion in 'Gameplay General' started by Liam, Aug 6, 2016.
what am I looking at
So the chair would be like a spring? Sounds neat and very powerful. I'm not in full support because I think a lot of people think Beowulf doesn't need more tools. I'd be fine with testing it out. I imagine that you wouldn't be able to change your direction if you did this.
I personally still want d.jhk to build hype in combos.
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Give Beowulf a haircut
Now back to Eliza :P
Would he be able to choose to do a double jump or does he have to double jump if he throws his chair? This seems like more animations would be needed though.
If I'm understanding mp game right, Beowulf immediately jumps after throwing down his chair. There's no additional things that need to be drawn. It would just be for example d.jmk animation, forward jump animation.
I would be okay if even Beowulf was unable to block during his double jump if it didn't have enough downsides to it.
Edit: Thinking about it a bit more, it's kind of interesting because you no longer have j.hp to cross up with.
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FWIW: Robo Fortune hard knockdown combo with 1 meter in Retail: 7.0k (7.3k if c.MK was how it is in BETA)
Robo fortune hard knockdown combo with 1 meter in BETA: 6.0k
Things to note: In Retail, if you left off the super, you would get 6.0k.
Spending a bar with Robo on 236HK > CCAlpha could net you 8.5k in retail. 8.5k is good ass damage which gives the player an option of "do I want to sacrifice good damage for a setup" but now the max you get with robo is 7k so it's like "meh I guess I'll go for setup" but setup isn't even that good as PME mentioned. Double jump cancels made the setup better in retail even??
Robo doesn't really have enough time to run away after the knockdown unless you have a lock down assist to stall (to any Bypass/Shot/DP robos, nope). So there's that.
Just recorded some matches of SwiftFox and me. I play robo, he plays peacock. So you can see some of the new stuff.
EDIt; Ayy now it does!
Well dang. Subscribed.
Any chance we could get Flew shot to come out if you hold the button for like 10 or 11 frames maybe? I could just be trash and am bad at releasing on time, but I can't tell you how many times I tossed my poison on accident. If not I'll deal with it. I just thought I was worth asking for
Just negative-edge it, dude.
Here is Dekillsage's Beo Fukua and Band in new beta if you wanna see how he plays it.
Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content)
If I am being completely honest, I don't see myself using that version of L item drop any more than the one in retail. The idea Caio mentioned on how it would track the opponent but couldn't charge(or maybe could charge but wouldn't move from that spot) would be interesting as it would let Peacock have a strong assist again. Her current assist options are decent-ish but nothing that really stands out. As far as using it on point, it could perhaps have a longer cooldown time on the item itself, so if you forgo using the less braindead M or H, you have to wait a little longer to use item drop again. I dunno, just a thought.
Another curious thought, iirc Peacock is the only character that doesn't have access to an invincible super to DHC out of. It's probably absurd to think about, but what if Argus had startup invincibility, just how crazy could that be? I mean atm it's only invincible right after the super flash but she becomes vulnerable again before even the first hit of the beam. If she had start up invincibility she'd still lose to meaties and such.
And on Bella, this Dynamo change is making me sad lol. I know it was a good catch all anti air but man does it suck to be cornered and whiff on a jump in right above her, or me be a split second too late in reaction to an anti air and me missing completely. Heck sometimes when the foe is behind bella and she Dynamos, they tend to drop out anyways. Was this really such a bad thing? One other person brought up a reasonable point on how Beo's arm super works in a similar way, nets more damage on CH and can usually result in a corner combo. Plus in some situations be even harder to punish than Dynamo if he flies to the other end of the screen on whiff/block against an aerial foe. If the change stays I'll cope eventually, just seems like it was fine as it was. It certainly helped against the likes of Eliza and Fortune who I'd say are two of Bella's hardest matchups.
Fuck that one too.
If you need an anti-air that the disjoint of sLK or invuln + directly-above-her that devil-horns can't cover, I don't think forward-travelling crossup boxes on dynamo are what you need.
There are examples of characters that have anti-airs for people directly above them (bella being one of them) and it's a luxury. Asking for something that covers AA concerns -behind- her seems pretty ridiculous with that in mind.
Peacock has plenty of great assists. Others have 1 or two that are commonly used (or really used at all). She has L bomb, M bomb, H bomb, M item Drop.
In other news, peacock bomb teleports not having a cooldown is very crazy.
Not to mention it dies to filia and val shenanigans now all the time. Also yeah both Beo and Band get the same stuff and it's silly. Bad not really a "crossup" more a side switch with hitstop that no one blocks cause wat?
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Hell, about 20 minutes ago i got hit by crossup dynamo because I had the gall to neutral jump + block. I did the thing that's supposed to beat Bella's reversal options and got hit for my trouble. I like having my options stay as-is in beta for baiting bella
A suggestion, could you make it so if it would cross up you could block it both ways? That way you could still catch stupid buttons (you are spending a bar for it) and if they bait it you don't get dumb things? That being said Filia crossup IADing me in the corner and Dynamo just whiffing is a little dumb.
There are also examples of characters who have similar supers that act like anti airs even on opponents behind and they also have anti airs that hit above them, like Big Band. Also note that against the likes of Eliza (and possibly other airdashers?) There are aerial block strings that Bella can't devil horns out of as the aggressor can actually land and block between moves, making Dynamo her only reversal choice, but now that can possibly whiff in some situations.
I don't deny that she has assist options, I was simply pointing out she doesn't have anything that's standout amazing. But maybe making L item drop like old H item drop would be a poor choice as it would outclass all her other assist options for the most part. Also I think L bomb sort of beats M and H bomb in most situations, I can't think of any Peacocks that have used the other versions. It's mainly between M item, L george and s.hp from what I've seen.
And it's complete horse-shit when it happens in those cases too. If there's a way to remove it from them, I'll celebrate those as well.
so sometimes you can't reversal?
I just think it's a bit silly especially when there's a character who pretty much has the same thing but gets more off of it anywhere and if it whiffs is also nigh unpunishable. Not saying I want old dynamo back cause that was a little bullshit but pendulums, my dude; they do swing too far sometimes.
In those situations if I don't go for the reversal super to alleviate the pressure, Eliza gets to be very much + in my face and can continue to go for aerial means for pressure. Since Devil horns is risky because she can land after say her j.hp, Dynamo was often the more reliable way to beat that thanks to the hitstop. Granted you wouldn't get much off it unless eliza's back was to the corner or you had an extra bar/very specific assist to combo off of. Sure I could pushblock, but it still leaves Bella in a single airdash space away and the cycle could start again. It's not impossible, sure, but it was nice to have that option of spending bar but now that has a chance of failing when it could already be baited, beaten by certain assist calls, or simply have the foe drop out of the windmill.
If dynamo is whiffing on opponent's directly above you, you can always do devil horns first instead. Yeah it's not as good or fast, but you definitely still have that tool/option there to deal with the problem so its not that bad.
"My character has 5 good assist choices, but none of them are Beat Extend; and 1 of the 5 reversals of my other character is now just an extremely fast invincible antiair that can actually sometimes lose, rather than catching absolutely everything"
Then also argue that she should have this because 2 other characters also do, ignoring that 11 other characters don't..
I really don't think there was anything wrong with Dynamo. There are other supers that hit in front of, above, and behind the user, and even some meterless reversals. Sure, if you don't agree with Dynamo you don't agree with those, but are we really going to alter the way every super that does this works in the final update? It's what I was saying about m shadow assist, too; the loop was the stated issue, but if that's so then it makes no sense not to remove every other loop in the game, and that's honestly a lot to do for the final update? I could understand if this was done in the Robo update, but this is the final patch.
It's not a big deal, it reeeeally isn't. It's spending a bar to get someone off you, something you get HCH for being wrong on, and the only way to convert is by spending two bars. Bella doesn't build meter super quick, so usually she'll be spending all of her bar just to have you stop jumping at her for a second. I've had people fall out of the crossup Dynamo and punish me with a long range punish (not a full combo). Either you think Bella is going to mash and you block, or you don't think she'll mash and you get hit. Why are we allowing the other player more chances to not think about Bella's options?
Well not as reversals but crossup supers that hit in "why?" are most certainly a thing for a lot of the cast. Besides the thing I mentioned:
Para - you can setup crossup bikes (sure not hitstop but it's still a wtf? situation. 
Also, idk how I forgot you can use Parasoul's step back to setup crossup sniper. I'll see if I can get a video.
Double - car randomly crosses up if you air block it? I'm not sure if it's a bug but it still happens 1/20 times at least to me anyway
Robo- Beams...y ( happens the most with 3/5 beam but it still happens with 1 beam) yeah I get the startup/recovery issue but sometimes when you try and jump over her or something it happens and you're thinking "wat?? but I cleared her".
Peacock - not really reversal but having teleport crossup Lenny's kinda dumb
Squigly - I think I've seen this on stream but I've seen daisy hit behind her...idk I'll give ya that one
Painwheel- man, just don't push block crawl tbh. Same thought process although this one's a bit weak
Filia- crossup Gregor, just saying it's there
Fukua- Doesn't really have anything I'm aware of that I've seen in terms of crossup and everything she did have that stupid got killed because nerf central.
Fortune- been hit by crossup air super but it's hella rare
Eliza- Nekbet things similar to Band in the fact that it's not a true crossup but that side switch is nigh unreactable sometimes depending on where you are.
Val- Pretty much every stupid corner crossup thing she has in the corner can be done into EKG and EKG will crossup.
Look I'm not saying I want old dynamo back, old dynamo was really stupid. I just went into training mode with the whole Bella/Eliza+filia thing and Super whiff, her anti-air buttons get beat except for DP but sometimes buttons randomly switch so sometimes it works and other you either get flipped DP which dies or sMP which also dies, or she could block DP(???)(I did crossup jLP for Eliza). yeah, it comes out which is great but a lot of the times Even knowing it was coming I got flipped things, which makes it not as reliable as a 1-meter spend. That being said coincidentally Parasoul bikes either put me plus or beat those and got me a full combo after and I don't really think that supposed to be a really good reversal iirc. So, to reiterate, yes Old Dynamo was really dumb and warranted a fix in some fashion, but in the context of certain situations it a much better option than a lot of other ones, thus the reason why you are spending a bar for it. Especially, since I'm assuming it was designed to be a reversal.
Is there an argument again some kind crossup protection for those first few unreactable frames, for that move? I mean I understand how that move can be stupid cause I used to hit people with it, however whenever it was in situation where that might have happened I blocked it like 7/10 times which is probs why I don't think it warranted a full hitbox negation like Fukua jHK (which I'm more meh about tbh). I believe that would alleviate those situations where I see people complaining about it being a problem while still allowing the reversal nature of it to still be applicable. I don't even really think this is an "other characters have this thing so I want it". (yeah it was tossed around I get that). Anyway, I've written a lot any thoughts?
First of all, Bella builds a tonne of meter in combos (over 1 bar for a midscreen kanchou bnb ending with Excellabella and just below if you go for a Cerecopter ender). She can also convert off of Dynamo without having to spend another bar if she is near the corner or has the right assist. She also has other anti-air moves that are pretty good and has other really good ways of spending meter besides anti-air dynamo.
Which other characters have fast, invincible reversals that also hit behind them with the potential for a combo without a DHC besides Band and Beowulf? I can't think of anyone else but please correct me if I'm wrong. Dynamo before hit above her, in front of her and behind her (which had the slim possibility of giving a meterless follow-up midscreen but that practically never happens). Even if you weren't pressing a button it and were above her it would present a weird 50/50 where you could have to block either way + it was post-flash unblockable I believe.
Also, saying "if you don't agree with a tool that this character has then you must not agree with other characters having it" is poor logic since other characters are fundamentally different in a number of ways.
Yes. This is true for certain routes, especially with assists. However, unlike other characters, she can't just whiff specials and throw things at neutral, which is the reason why I at least feel this is sort of justified. You aren't really ever gonna get meter unless you actually hit someone whereas other characters can. Especially if they block stuff, she isn't gonna gain much. I think that's what he was referencing.
In some situations, this is heavily debatable especially with the beta in place although I'm not sure who's asking for old dynamo back.
Besides those two and Double (kinda, see air blocking shenanigans and it does call out people behind her often), not really anyone but that's kinda specific. But just about every character has something that hits behind them situationally except Fukua ofc IDK if she can set it up or not. That being said for double she can't combo and really neither could Bella on crossup except rarely if the stars aligned. Crossup Dynamo didn't guarantee a combo after but it did sometimes happen if it crossed up going into the corner (although more frequently than at mid screen which makes sense). It comboing in the corner was a compensation for it not comboing mid screen anymore iirc. But yeah plenty of supers can be used to hit people behind you although it might not crossup per se.
Yes. Not gonna disagree here
Yeah, this is where stupid stuff came in (although with dizzy it is still blockable post flash, still has the weird 50/50 thing). I agree that that was kinda dumb and even though two other characters can do it that doesn't excuse it. However, wouldn't this problem be solved via that move having what would essentially be crossup protection? Gets rid of stupid 50/50's, still hella punishable, she gets her 1 bar anti-air to work in situations as a reversal, everyone wins. As long as you aren't pushing buttons then you beat it. Plenty of supers hit behind the character so I'm not sure how "this hits behind the character" is that much of an argument. Sure it's large, but the main reason everyone's pointing the hit behind the character is because 50/50 unreactables. You get rid of those and it goes into the bin of other supers that also hit behind the character.
I agree, there are some reasons why that argument is viable, but that's few and far between. For me, Beowulf is the closest thing to a "this is also dumb" as you're gonna get in this situation since:
A. removing this would have all the same negative repercussions
B. It's a Reversal, although crossup arm gets you a corner carry, a free combo + hard knockdown + setup + like at least 6-7K depending on if you were pushing a button or not. And the fact that if it whiffs it is nigh unpunishable even with the use of meter in a lot of cases.
C. It operates essentially the same in terms of hitstop etc. and it's 1 hit. Although I don't know if it's jHCH-able for everyone in the cast, there might be a difference there.
That being said for the same reason's I would say he warrants having it, is the same reason I think the solution to Bella's issue (because let's be honest here they are different moves) is what I said before. Even considering the fact that Beowulf has a dedicated invincible anti-air super that's relatively safe for what it is.
Double's car is really slow and can be avoided by a quite a few characters on reaction if they're on the ground and doesn't lead to a combo. I also said "fast, invincible reversals that also hit behind them with the potential for a combo without a DHC" and none of the rest of the cast has this. I didn't say who has supers that can hit behind them because this alone isn't the problem with Dynamo.
Because this isn't what is being discussed and this isn't what the problem with Dynamo was. The problem with Dynamo was that it was an invincible, post-flash unblockable, super that hit all around Bella and leads to a combo in the corner.
I'm fine with this solution but I also think that the current version of Dynamo is fine in beta and that her defence is already very good without Dynamo also beating crossups.
So a few quick things.
1st big band seems to just be able to mash forward and never miss a parry. I was playing as BB and literally just jumped in and mashed forward and never got hit by anything. I think the cool down on subsequent parry attempts should be increased a little to make it not come out if you mash.
2nd I feel that since fukua is not able to hold a shadow while in block stun that peacock should also lose an item drop while in block stun. Considering the fact that M bang got buffed and that she now has a reliable anti air I don't think she should have all these tools at once.
3rd I think that fukua's shadows should have an increase in range. Certain shadow setups such as c.lk, c.mp, c.hp, call assisst, shadow, run in, j.lp/c.lk, release shadow never works because by the time the assist is done the opponent is out of shadows range. If Fukua is supposed to be able to use shadows for pressure then they should hit or keep the opponent in block stun not completely whiff at mid screen.
Peacock and Fukua aren't the same character though, the only overlap is that they can hold shadows that serve different purposes and that they're limited to 2/1 of their other primary projectile at a time. Fukua has far better reversal options than Peacock, it'd similarly be unfair of me to suggest that her armor and invuln options be neutered to be in-line with how limited M Bang is, just because -- loses to jumps, can be low-profiled, can be grabbed, is slow enough to lose to a DP on-reaction. Additionally, her new anti-air cLK still loses to disjoints and doesn't reach very high. It's far from reliable, but it works far more consistently than before the hitbox change.
I'm not saying anything about your understanding of Peacock, but I am saying that you sound like you're just arguing for the sake of semantics rather than for the sake of the character.
I just don't think peacock should have a tracking hitbox that comes out as fast as it does and can basically counter any situation where the opponent presses a button and then lead to a high damage combo. I always thought that the purpose of holding item drop and using it on defense was to compensate for her lack of a reliable anti air by being able to block high release item drop and continue to combo if it hits. Yeah it can trade with disjointed air hit boxes but not every character in the cast has a disjointed air normal. It just feels too strong at times. It could just be my unfamiliarity with peacock but it just feels like she has the upper hand in many situations that she did not have them in before and doesn't feel like she lost anything besides some damage.
Fukua feels fine, if held shadows stayed while blocking, getting in on her would be more difficult than it already is.
While shadows going further would be really nice, I don't think fukua really needs it, held shadow mixups should problem be something you sacrifice damage to set it up proper, if they went very far then there would be no trade off. Just do max dmg combo into high lows/clone+block by yourself would be silly.
If we're talking quality of life changes, mclone always throwing towards the point character would be a godsend for being able to close the distance to pick up off certain set ups without using BFF more consistently (again she doesn't need it but it would be nice to play around with)
Also a buffer to dash after clones would be fantastic for scrubs like me, 2.mp 2.hp clone> short dash otg pickup is difficult because all the clones have different endlags (again she doesn't need any of this, it would just make playing her feel more fluid)
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It takes 26 frames to actually appear (on top of travel time from the top of the screen) assuming she's just doing a quick drop, during which time you can poke her and the shadow disappears. If she's in blockstun, she cannot release the shadow until blockstun ends, and that's only if she has good timing. Otherwise the item will forcibly wait 10 frames after blockstun ends before it drops. The item itself hits mid unless it gets charged all the way to level 3. At best she can turn an up-close encounter into a frame advantage on her part (she cannot use this frame advantage to set up another item drop either) unless you got caught pressing buttons after letting her out of your blocking pressure -- pressure that you're free to disengage from if you aren't confident in hitting or grabbing her out of that 10 frame grace period that you have before the item spawns.
Also her Anti-air can't do nearly the kind of things that other anti-airs can do. It can't swat someone out of the sky if you catch them jumping over you pressing a button. Hell, the hitbox on her anti-air is close enough to the ground that she is relying on the opponent pretty much landing on top of her for it to interrupt them. It's usable now that the hitbox on Avery was removed, but it's far from being an oppressive anti-air tool. She gets more mileage out of an anti-air assist than her actual anti-air.
wait peacock can't release item drop while in block stun?
I'm curious when is the ETA for this patch to be completed. I shelved SG for a while and I'm probably going to pick it back up when the patch launches.
I can't be bothered to dig up the exact patch note, but it's been that way since at least 2014 when McPeanuts made the compendium.
yeah, I did change it in an edit and my computers p slow so it didn't update, sorry. I meant to say kinda but all of that is kinda specific to especially if the problem was the crossup itself not really the fact that it hits behind her.
Right, except for the fact that her anti-airs aren't necessarily as effective for the situations listed above in a previous post (TJ IIRC). Sometimes super can, in fact, be her best option in some situations, with the cost being a bar which we've already that she can't just build without already have won neutral. [Edit] team game aside this is the case I guess if you have fortune and Peacock on your team then it's "free" but we're talking about the character herself.
Because of this, I think spending a bar for a reversal is bad so long as you fix the stupid things is fair, especially because as a reversal (where there is typically some undizzy) it is no longer unblockable post super flash. Meaning, that it's a dumb 50/50 in certain situations, but it is certainly more reactable (note: same with every other reversal).
I'm saying that in situations where it's better for you to have some form of reversal, than being in some situation whereby blocking correctly ends with looping yourself, because DP will either get whiffed, blocked or flipped and those other anti-airs aren't reliable or effective cause of the situation; spending a bar, that she can't generate at neutral to get out should be fair. That being said, it doesn't justify being able to 50/50 people by the nature of the move.
Also, I'm not sure why people do this, but I've never seen attacks as part of the defence (which might be where there might be a difference in view). Yeah, pgbc is a thing but you used a defensive option to start your offence. It's similar to saying an aerial attack is an anti-air. This is just more of a personal thing which might be the reason why I'm not seeing it.
No one agreed bella cant build meter in neutral. Bc thats crazy, call any common assist with battle butt or h lnl, safe meter build, armored so it beats buttons, oh and she can armor cancel to her supers (lnl).
You are debating on assumptions that are untrue
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