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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

The "point" behind the Fukua-shadows-aren't-reflectable change is that they're projectiles which can be destroyed by hitting them (normally not the greatest idea in the world to do vs a projectile), so it was made to be consistent with the other hittable projectiles in the game - Eliza Chair and Parasoul Bike, both of which cannot be reflected either.
It's less of a Bella change and more of a "logical followup" to the Fukua changes.

Makes a whole lot more sense to me than not being able to reflect Beowulf chair, which I don't understand at all. That's more similar to making Fortune's head (and Headtoss) unreflectable.. which it isn't.
 
*Inhales*

IT IS SO IRONIC THAT YOU OF ALL PEOPLE ARE SAYING THIS WHEN YOU HAD THE AUDACITY TO CLAIM THAT DOUBLE SNAPS WERE AN EXPLOIT WITHOUT ANY RESEARCH WHATSOEVER WHILE ASKING FOR THE GAME TO EXPLICITLY TELL YOU WHEN YOU ARE GETTING BURST BAITED LMFAAAAO I'M DONE

Also, do you remember when I played you and I hit you with the day1 double burst bait set up three times in a row? Was that Mike Z's fault, or yours, as you were "getting ceaselessly bodied in a corner"?????

The burst bait indicator was a suggestion by others, not me, and Mike would have done it if the PS3's limitations weren't at issue. One of the other devs also answered my question about whether double snaps were intended in this very topic. (It is.)

I'm constantly learning about the game and losing my salt over design decisions as I improve. Laughing at me like this without even keeping up with me as a player isn't adding anything to the discussion.
 
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But it's not like that for other characters. By that logic then Bella shouldn't be able to reflect Robo's Beam AND Head Ram.
Also it's confusing. "You can reflect every projectile in the game... except these 3~4"

Okay, then let me be able to get rid of all projectiles with normals and not get hit by them. or let's change it back to where you can't hit shadows with normals but only projectiles .

I agree with you
 
The "point" behind the Fukua-shadows-aren't-reflectable change is that they're projectiles which can be destroyed by hitting them (normally not the greatest idea in the world to do vs a projectile), so it was made to be consistent with the other hittable projectiles in the game - Eliza Chair and Parasoul Bike, both of which cannot be reflected either.
It's less of a Bella change and more of a "logical followup" to the Fukua changes.

This is actually a good line of thought initially but I feel Parasoul's HK egret is moreso a grab than a projectile and Eliza's chair can't be reflected whether she's point or assist. Yet Fukua's shadows can be reflected if it's an assist so it becomes another unique case like Beowulf's chair, just seems to make things a little convoluted.
 
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The burst bait indicator was a suggestion by others, not me

And who was persistent in trying to get this implemented??? I think I had to tell this person several times how it was a useless suggestion??? Don't quote me on that though. Moving the goalposts in the form of pretending you never even wanted this to be implemented is kinda funny too

devs also answered my question about whether double snaps were intended in this very topic.

And that question was a waste of space in this thread. Just like both of our posts right now.

Laughing at me like this without even keeping up with me as a player

What does this even mean??? If it's what I think it is, then no, I definitely kept up on you as a player - I don't even recall you taking a game. Also here is me adding to the discussion!!!!

I like the game where it is right now, but I can't comment on Beowulf. I think the only characters that need to get tweaked at this point are Peacock, Robo, and Beo. Gonna miss the 1.1k Big Band j.HP, but he already does the big dmg, so w.e.

This is my last post on this thread because I have nothing further to add.
 
Beowulf can still do big damage. I'm getting 8.2k+ meterless and no hype start but it requires H-train/excella. Chair slams only giving 1 hype makes sense but not being able to gain meter at all with chair slams after using an EX definitely feels more restrictive.
 
I'm not a Fukua player whatsoever, but I believe the reason stems from the fact that you can already reflect Fukua's love darts. If you can reflect those, like Cerebella has been able to, AS WELL as the shadows, I think that puts Fukua in a really bad spot. Don't take my word for it, though.
Deflecting her love darts doesn't net much reward, and can get you punished when trying to deflect air m/air l/ground l fireballs after they touch the ground. You can also be easily punished for a missed deflector with run up into anything.

It's less of a Bella change and more of a "logical followup" to the Fukua changes.
Except it is a Bella change. Eliza's c.hk is the other move that interacts specifically with projectiles. Eliza's c.hk will tank Fukua shadows and Beowulf chairs, but Deflector specifically neglects to consider both of those projectiles. Eliza's c.hk and Bella's Deflector will lose to Throne of Isis, because Throne of Isis isn't a projectile.

I honestly don't know why the deflector nerfs aren't being listed as nerfs, because that's what they are.

Edit: Just checked, cause I hadn't before. Big Band's h giant step can't be deflected anymore, but Eliza c.hk still tanks it.
 
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@Mike_Z Should I have sent you a message on twitter instead about the Robo lv 1/3 interaction with Lenny instead to remind you?
 
And who was persistent in trying to get this implemented??? I think I had to tell this person several times how it was a useless suggestion??? Don't quote me on that though. Moving the goalposts in the form of pretending you never even wanted this to be implemented is kinda funny too

I wasn't attempting to deflect, just say that I wasn't the only one asking for it. I at least had the sense to can it after the devs were like #CantFix, as far as I can remember.

And in hindsight, it was bad taste of me to come into this thread for a haha moment; I'm sorry for that. This is a very serious discussion about balance changes and I should let it stay that way. I've learned a long time ago to stay out of discussions I don't have much knowledge of, so now it looks like I need to extend that attitude towards video games, such as this one.

I'm reminded everyday that I still don't know the half of this game's reasonably complex mechanics. So I'll do the only right thing I can and bow out of this thread until I have some idea of what I'm doing with the characters I play as.

However, what I don't understand is why that wasn't the issue under the microscope. You spent more time reminding me of how I was months ago (A lot can happen in that time! And again, sorry for the newbie things I posted.) than rightly telling me "Hey, cut it out! You should be ashamed for wasting the pros' time in here." That struck me as mildly argumentative, but I'm going to chalk that up as "Well, if I had kept quiet, the heat wouldn't have been turned up in the first place." I like to believe there's as much power in what you say as much as what you don't.
 
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Can someone translate dekillsage for me? Is he saying that it's a bad change? Is it not enough? Are the rest of the changes just boring? Do the number of z's play into the overall opinion?

I don't think I saw anyone respond to this, but it's a sentiment I've seen others share around. Basically, it feels like a lot of things in this patch amount to scaling nerfs, instead of retooling things. Normally things scaling sounds fine itself, but it feels like its the norm.
 
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I did my homework on Skullgirls and its players! You're that guy who got destroyed by Sharpie mashing Eliza Air Super, right? Where is your foot?
If you think losing to Sharpie is some kind of mark of shame, maybe you should play her FT5 on stream and see if you can do any better :)
 
I’d like to go back to the subject of Sekhmet’s usefulness for a minute. About page or two ago this was brought up and I’d like to touch on it again. First off, I actually agree with the sentiment that Sekhmet does not need sweeping changes or buffs; that’s not what this is. However, Sekhmet’s usefulness as a utility seems under utilized and I think this ties directly into Eliza’s vampire ability. I also think it’s surprising that no one has attempted to explain what Sekhmet is as a tool; something I’d actually like to discuss in another thread or maybe write a small guide on it later in the future.

What I’d like to suggest is that Sekhmet’s Lady of Slaughter ability be granted the vampire effect after Eliza taunts; currently, only Eliza’s Lady of Slaughter has the capability of stealing health. This creates two issues:

* In order to steal any substantial health in a single burst, Eliza must spend nearly 4 bar!
* In order to steal health in a single go, Eliza must cut combos short and transform into Sekhmet – this almost always deals less than damage than a straight forward Eliza combo. The amount of health she can steal almost always renders “vampire combos” pointless as the amount of life stolen is usually paltry.
* If not the above, Eliza must constantly taunt in order to nibble health away from the opponent.

In regards to damage vs life stolen, I think Eliza should have to decide between either damage or life; unfortunately there is no point to doing life combos so Eliza usually must resort to nibbling health away as described above.

In all of Eliza’s vampire combos, only Sekhmet’s normals can steal life. This is where the problem of meter vs life stolen comes into play – Sekhment’s meter drain is intense, and the amount of life she gets from doing a vampire combo does not justify the spent meter; she also does not do as much damage as Eliza, making a Sekhmet Lady of Slaughter usually pointless.

I’m going to try and justify this proposal with some numbers; I apologize if this is all a bit of mess and I’ll try to keep this clean and concise as possible.

All health values were calculated with both players starting at 70% regardless of team size.

(Eliza) Raw Lady of Slaughter, Life Stolen

1 v 1: 800 gained, 10,850 -> 11,650
1 v 3: 1,160 gained, 22,242 -> 23,402

This actually provides the largest amount of life stolen for the most reasonable meter; unfortunately doing a raw LOS as Eliza is a great way to get yourself killed and is impractical.

Sekhmet L -> L -> L, M, H Combo, Life Stolen

1 v 1: 616 gained, 10,850 -> 11,466
1 v 3: 891 gained, 22,242 -> 23,133

Right off the bat, we’re doing a combo that drains almost as much meter as the above scenario and yet have taken a reduction in the life stolen. Note that this combo was done “raw” so there was no hit-confirming into it! Also impractical, as Sekhmet really shouldn’t be used as a rush down tool; you'll be snapped out!

(Eliza) Lady of Slaughter After Boatslide BnB, Life Stolen

1 v 1: 300 gained (!!!), 10,850 -> 11,150
1 v 3: 415 gained, 22,242 -> 22,657

This is the safest way to steal life, but hardly steals any at all! If you were doing a taunt setup for this, you likely wasted your time and traded pressure all to steal a negligible amount of life. Obviously, we’ll need to do more than this in order to steal health! We’ll try something different below:

Sekhmet’s L -> L -> L, M, H as an Ender to Boatslide BnB, Life Stolen

1 v 1: 232 gained (yikes!), 10,850 -> 11,082
1 v 3: 330 gained, 22,242 -> 22,572

...so here, we not only did a combo with “more Sekhmet”, we also burned more meter and got less health back. I should also point out that in this test case, I did Sekhmet’s Lady of Slaughter at the end of the LLL M H. That, coupled with the LLL M H, could have given me a non-trivial amount of health back for the meter I spent. This is really silly in that I’m spending more meter, doing more damage, using more Sekhmet, and getting less!

Highest Possible Life Stealing Combo, no Hit Confirms

Combo: (As Sekh) j.mp, s.hp, j.mp, s.hp, j.lp, [Signature Attack], c.lp, s.mp (all hits), s.hp, xx[Lady of Slaughter]

1 v 1
Damage: 7,354
Life Stolen: 1,534
Meter Spent: 3.9 bars

1 v 3
Damage: 10,689
Life Stolen: 2,220
Meter Spent: 3.9 bars

This is only time I’ve seen Eliza steal a meaningful amount of health. The problem is, it required me to do a nuclear level unsafe attack to open the combo, (Sekhmet’s j.mp) and took nearly 4 bar. The Lady of Slaughter on the end only dealt damage too, and stole no life.

What I am suggesting is, by allowing Sekhmet to steal life off of her Lady of Slaughter, she could steal life for a reasonable amount of meter. This would allow Eliza to do “some combo”, cancel into Sekhmet, and use as much Sekhmet as the undizzy bar and meter permits and do Lady of Slaughter at the end cash out the life stealing combo. Damage scaling would likely prevent life stolen from ever passing 1,000 unless Eliza did an unusually long life stealing combo. What I am not suggesting is that Eliza’s vampire ability be directly buffed, or that her vampire ability ignore damage scaling. I hope to hear some responses on this and thanks for taking the time to read this utter mess of a post.
 
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Keep the shittalk to discord and twitter.

Cloudking, if you would like to explain your statement to alcoholicrobot since he is geniuinely curious.
I will probably make my list and then post a tldr at the end, sometime soon.
Its gonna be long bc i like talking about skullgirls
 
The "point" behind the Fukua-shadows-aren't-reflectable change is that they're projectiles which can be destroyed by hitting them (normally not the greatest idea in the world to do vs a projectile)

but this isn't congruent with hittable projectiles, like everything fortune's head does except sneeze. Nom, like bike, is a hitgrab and can't be deflected. Sneeze is inv as heck so you can't punch out of it. Dive of Horus is a hittable deflectable projectile.

I understand making diamond deflector less useful because its a frame 1 active tool to avoid taking projectile damage that creates a nearly un-disrespectable projectile on success, but I would almost prefer if the tool itself got worse instead of just making it not work against things for matchup reasons, maybe having it go back to having startup or something, I don't know. Overall I don't think that not being to deflect certain things is a huge change that takes a ton of time to adjust to, I just think any reasoning for it changing we've been given hasn't made much sense (to me).
 
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How come Beowulf's hype changes didn't give him some way to spend hype and/or meter to recover his chair from anywhere on the stage? I was thinking that would be one of the more obvious changes to make. I don't play Beowulf but I've seen the complaints in this thread about how not having the chair where Beowulf wants it, or really, anywhere near him, is kind of a killjoy.
 
How come Beowulf's hype changes didn't give him some way to spend hype and/or meter to recover his chair from anywhere on the stage?

It is something Mike talked about, the chair recall. I guess it did not happen, but I wasn't really a fan of the idea of the first place. It encourages a sort of "resource management." You have a +1 DP. You better know where your chair goes when you throw that thing. This is a tiny bit less stressed now in some cases, since they removed extra chip from projectiles.
 
Just got home to test out new double level 5.

I like the idea. the production currently is extremely jarring.

When i do a combo i expect my bombs to be there after the explosion or something. The recovery to pick up OTG is tight on parasoul weights and above. I can understand my bombs going away if i get hit, but during a combo when i do the moai pattern and they disappear during the explosion? also can we at least choose whether to detonate or not?
 
Well this is still pretty good damage
 
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Well this is still pretty good damage
I wonder if the new sound effect getting used twice is intentional, it seems kind of weird.
 
Also, I just want to add one more thing because I'm seeing it more than I think I should...

For those of you requesting/complaining about damage buffs/nerfs... Remember that has absolutely nothing to do with how good a character is. The most damaging optimal combo being cut by (X) damage doesn't make that character worse. For example, I read people complaining about the new damage scale on Beo. He still has the strongest 3 hit combo in the game. Chair toss, cr. punch, super. I don't think damage adjustments should change your outlook on that character becoming worse. He still has the same tools to open you up and get the hit; that part isn't being nerfed.

And I'm not focusing on Beo. I'm just saying in general, simple damage buffs/reductions doesn't change the play of the character unless every single normal/move/super got nerfed in damage. Then it would be acceptable.
 
He still has the strongest 3 hit combo in the game. Chair toss, cr. punch, super.

For one meter? Yeah probably. Filia does more with her level 3 though. Also it is cr.hk not cr.hp.
 
Also, I just want to add one more thing because I'm seeing it more than I think I should...

For those of you requesting/complaining about damage buffs/nerfs... Remember that has absolutely nothing to do with how good a character is. The most damaging optimal combo being cut by (X) damage doesn't make that character worse. For example, I read people complaining about the new damage scale on Beo. He still has the strongest 3 hit combo in the game. Chair toss, cr. punch, super. I don't think damage adjustments should change your outlook on that character becoming worse. He still has the same tools to open you up and get the hit; that part isn't being nerfed.

And I'm not focusing on Beo. I'm just saying in general, simple damage buffs/reductions doesn't change the play of the character unless every single normal/move/super got nerfed in damage. Then it would be acceptable.
tbh the loss of setups bothers me more than the loss of damage, what with losing hkd on everything but hype boosted press. That's not a mere change in combo routes; it completely alters how he pressures opponents.
 
I mean yeah when it comes to resource building combos, having excella or A train are going to outperform compared to others, like how squigly can get really good damage + resources using A train assist but not really as much from other assists.
 
tbh the loss of setups bothers me more than the loss of damage, what with losing hkd on everything but hype boosted press. That's not a mere change in combo routes; it completely alters how he pressures opponents.
How does losing hkd change how you pressure someone? I understand if you had said the results of your pressure changes and what happens once you get the hit changes but how does the pressure itself change?
 
The squawk coming from Avery when a roller spawns feels really mistimed now that there's no pause. I'll hear both the squawk and wryy at the same time on a successful hit and sounds more like Avery going "WHAT?!" on a miss. To be honest, I kind of preferred when there was no audio when the roller spawned as it gave you a half second to let that thunk of when it hit the ground sink in before Avery started going ballistic. If the sound had to be used somewhere, I'd ask that it be used at the end of Peacock's taunt animation as a sort of confirm that a Tenrai Ha charge was stored, similar to the music notes effect when BB finishes his taunt. In the heat of the moment, it can be hard to tell when exactly you can super while still getting a charge since she can cancel the taunt into a super. It boils down to whether you pressed buttons too fast or not.

In regards to the bomb cancel into teleport change. While I am getting fewer accidental L teleports while doing bomb patterns thanks to the input change, I still feel as if I'm getting gypped out of the button I actually pressed if my fingers were too fast. While not a cancel, but I'd love to buffer M and H tele if I were to do them during the cancel window like with L tele. I'm getting myself re-acclimated to the timing but still it comes up where reacting too quickly to SSJ, for example, gets me CH rather than out of the way.

Also this bug is still a thing when Peacock gets chipped out.
2WmBNWH.png


This actually also applies to the Avery projectile as well. If Peacock gets chipped out, he won't go away. It's only if Peacock gets hit/grabbed. While mostly inconsequential, I've gotten some trade KOs that I should not have gotten, I feel.
 
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How does losing hkd change how you pressure someone? I understand if you had said the results of your pressure changes and what happens once you get the hit changes but how does the pressure itself change?
I.... I'm blown away by this question. "How does losing hard knockdown change how you pressure someone?" is almost exactly like asking "How does losing your launcher change how you combo?"
 
How does losing hkd change how you pressure someone? I understand if you had said the results of your pressure changes and what happens once you get the hit changes but how does the pressure itself change?
To actually answer your question since people are more than willing to quote you but not answer it.

Beowulf was the only one to constantly put you in HKD even if you used OTG. What these changes suggest is that even if he used airwulf, he is now resource intensive to actually become the monster he once was. This also takes into account of his other choices if he has hype. It also calls into question what is he exactly supposed to do? EX blitzer(which was REALLY REALLY fun) is removed. The ex grabs are scaled to 50%. I do not know what the damage of beo deals now.

Basically what BL was saying is that due to loss of HKD it completely changes the route that you would go to initiate pressure via OKI.
 
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To actually answer your question since people are more than willing to quote you but not answer it.

Beowulf was the only one to constantly put you in HKD even if you used OTG. What these changes suggest is that even if he used airwulf, he is now resource intensive to actually become the monster he once was. This also takes into account of his other choices if he has hype. It also calls into question what is he exactly supposed to do? EX blitzer(which was REALLY REALLY fun) is removed. The ex grabs are scaled to 50%. I do not know what the damage of beo deals now.

Basically what BL was saying is that due to loss of HKD it completely changes the route that you would go to initiate pressure via OKI.
Thank you for actually answering instead of just rephrasing what I said.

I.... I'm blown away by this question. "How does losing hard knockdown change how you pressure someone?" is almost exactly like asking "How does losing your launcher change how you combo?"
This isnt an answer btw dude. I was legitmately curious. I also thought you meant pressure in order to get the hit instead of pressure after a knockdown. Please provide an actual answer next time instead of blowing smoke out of your backside trying to sound smart.

Edit: Specifying that you meant oki pressure would have avoided this but I will also say that I probably should have guessed that is what you meant. That's on both of us.
 
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So, are we gonna talk about double being highly punishable at full screen on block of her lv5 by the majority of the cast without PBGC or no? If no one else cares neither do I. Obviously if I mess up the pattern it's my fault and sure I'll accept the punish, but I'm just curious if anyone cares.

Also, Beowulf can arm her into the corner at full screen and get a full combo on hit if the last hit isn't a plane and doesn't cause techable knockdown...
 
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This isnt an answer btw dude. I was legitmately curious. I also thought you meant pressure in order to get the hit instead of pressure after a knockdown. Please provide an actual answer next time instead of blowing smoke out of your backside trying to sound smart.
Since you don't know what pressure is, here's an essay.

Pressure is defined on various wikis as "forcing the opponent to act defensively" but it is most clearly represented by a combination of positional and situational advantages.

You block Fortune Headless s.HP. She is now immensely +frames, while the head is also in a position to continue to threaten you. That's pressure. If Head< HP knocked the head away like Nom, that would be a lack of pressure. Nom puts you so + that you can set up nearly any position or situation you desire. Does it matter that it's a result of getting the hit? Are you less motivated to act defensively because of the circumstances leading up to Fortune having a positional and situational advantage?

Peacock is fullscreen. She now has pressure. It doesn't matter if she's in the middle of throwing a bomb or shooting a gun; the point is that you are now on the receiving end of her gameplan. Peacock wins neutral by getting to fullscreen, and then she has to work very hard to maintain that advantage.

The term "pressure" being distinct based off whether or not you've won neutral or burst baited or set up an extremely powerful mixup is meaningless. Does the term "damage" suddenly mean something different if you're getting stray hits in neutral as opposed to landing a huge combo? No, it's fucking damage! Your opponent loses HP and you get closer to winning. That's it! The game state doesn't care if it was a 15k CH 5-meter combo or if it was 60 seconds of accrued Robo chip. Pressure is the same way.

The least mobile character in the game (with no run, no wavedash, no double jump, no flight, and only a single mobility special that has sizeable startup and leaves you vulnerable until you hit the ground) works to get in, bullies you with a couple big buttons, and then can act offensively once you are in hop overhead/L Chair range. Chair moves provide a lot of the work (being the only ways to do long-range lows and +anything on block at all) but they do not sustain pressure at all because they are ammunition-based (and you only have 1 shot). The character scores a hit, turns it into a knockdown, and now has a massive positional and situational advantage. He's like the opposite of Peacock in that he has to work hard, but he gets a HUGE advantage for his work.

Of course, this knockdown situation forces the opponent to act defensively. They have to hold a mixup, often times one protected by an assist. Sometimes that mixup can even be "no mixup" in the expectation that the opponent will reversal. What is that if not pressure? You have the perfect position to play your game and force the opponent to obey your rules. You have a frame advantage substantial enough to be its own situational advantage. The only way it could be better is if the opponent had their reversal options reduced, like when many other characters reset you in the air.


So, as I initially stated, "How does losing hard knockdown change how you pressure someone?" is almost exactly like asking "How does losing your launcher change how you combo?" Sure, you could combo without a launcher, but it would cripple most of your combo options (try Chairless and see for yourself!) to the point of completely eliminating many routes-- namely, any air combo route. A character whose previous reward for winning neutral was the best pressure in the game suddenly losing access to that pressure without spending resources is a character with objectively worse pressure than he was before. I'm not saying this will break him or turn him useless. I am saying it's a substantial nerf in an incredibly important way, and... uh... what I guess is now something like 10% more damage? Holy shit, after the damage nerf brought him down that seems pretty fucking awful. Anyway, it's a huge nerf and the booby prize of "slightly more damage until somebody optimizes the current options and then that damage boost might be rolled back just like last time" doesn't seem like a reasonable consolation.
 
Hi so like Remikz is right. Beowulf's damage isn't that bad. I went back to take a look at the VOD.
Here it is : https://www.twitch.tv/game_realms/v/97737884

I tested out the combo that mike showed on stream and noticed there was something different with the numbers. So i checked and I realized that the combo Mike showed only used 1 hype. He specifically says "This is a variant of woofly's that used to do 10k". Totally misled when he spent 1 hype instead of 3. The actual damage you can achieve with that combo is about 8.5k with 3 hype.
Sorry about any misunderstandings. So yeah his damage is great.
 
Since you don't know what pressure is, here's an essay.

Pressure is defined on various wikis as "forcing the opponent to act defensively" but it is most clearly represented by a combination of positional and situational advantages.

You block Fortune Headless s.HP. She is now immensely +frames, while the head is also in a position to continue to threaten you. That's pressure. If Head< HP knocked the head away like Nom, that would be a lack of pressure. Nom puts you so + that you can set up nearly any position or situation you desire. Does it matter that it's a result of getting the hit? Are you less motivated to act defensively because of the circumstances leading up to Fortune having a positional and situational advantage?

Peacock is fullscreen. She now has pressure. It doesn't matter if she's in the middle of throwing a bomb or shooting a gun; the point is that you are now on the receiving end of her gameplan. Peacock wins neutral by getting to fullscreen, and then she has to work very hard to maintain that advantage.

The term "pressure" being distinct based off whether or not you've won neutral or burst baited or set up an extremely powerful mixup is meaningless. Does the term "damage" suddenly mean something different if you're getting stray hits in neutral as opposed to landing a huge combo? No, it's fucking damage! Your opponent loses HP and you get closer to winning. That's it! The game state doesn't care if it was a 15k CH 5-meter combo or if it was 60 seconds of accrued Robo chip. Pressure is the same way.

The least mobile character in the game (with no run, no wavedash, no double jump, no flight, and only a single mobility special that has sizeable startup and leaves you vulnerable until you hit the ground) works to get in, bullies you with a couple big buttons, and then can act offensively once you are in hop overhead/L Chair range. Chair moves provide a lot of the work (being the only ways to do long-range lows and +anything on block at all) but they do not sustain pressure at all because they are ammunition-based (and you only have 1 shot). The character scores a hit, turns it into a knockdown, and now has a massive positional and situational advantage. He's like the opposite of Peacock in that he has to work hard, but he gets a HUGE advantage for his work.

Of course, this knockdown situation forces the opponent to act defensively. They have to hold a mixup, often times one protected by an assist. Sometimes that mixup can even be "no mixup" in the expectation that the opponent will reversal. What is that if not pressure? You have the perfect position to play your game and force the opponent to obey your rules. You have a frame advantage substantial enough to be its own situational advantage. The only way it could be better is if the opponent had their reversal options reduced, like when many other characters reset you in the air.


So, as I initially stated, "How does losing hard knockdown change how you pressure someone?" is almost exactly like asking "How does losing your launcher change how you combo?" Sure, you could combo without a launcher, but it would cripple most of your combo options (try Chairless and see for yourself!) to the point of completely eliminating many routes-- namely, any air combo route. A character whose previous reward for winning neutral was the best pressure in the game suddenly losing access to that pressure without spending resources is a character with objectively worse pressure than he was before. I'm not saying this will break him or turn him useless. I am saying it's a substantial nerf in an incredibly important way, and... uh... what I guess is now something like 10% more damage? Holy shit, after the damage nerf brought him down that seems pretty fucking awful. Anyway, it's a huge nerf and the booby prize of "slightly more damage until somebody optimizes the current options and then that damage boost might be rolled back just like last time" doesn't seem like a reasonable consolation.
A+ on the essay. But it doesnt address the original problem which is that you failed to answer my question originally instead of just restating what I already said. I admitted fault. Now it's your turn.
 
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