Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Discussion in 'Gameplay General' started by rayplay, Sep 7, 2013.

  1. rayplay

    rayplay aka solidoutlaw

    Location:
    Houston
    Talk about tiers and matchups regarding the current version of SG. Try to keep a well thought out discussion going. That means don't say "M.S 4CHAN IS TEH TOP TIER", but rather, actually give (valid) reasons for your thoughts, and preferably discuss how you believe they fare in matchups. Sure, matchup threads exist in other sub forums, but consider this thread a round table discussion.

    So uh, go.
     
  2. DukeMagus

    DukeMagus Not A Duke; THE Duke

    Tiers and matchups in SG are hard to make because of the flexible team size/assists...

    can't say if 1vs1 tiers are good here... are they?
     
  3. Alstein

    Alstein Member

    Right now I'd say what would make a top tier is damage output/ease of landing it, since the game is veering back into ToD territory (Double/Cere can 100% a duo char with 2 bars, maybe 1)

    Hoping Mike Z adjusts the combo system in the next big patch so that loops aren't as rewarding, either by making them increase IPS stage or giving undizzy before lvl 5 in some cases. (it needs to be something that doesn't impact "normal" combos though)
     
  4. View619

    View619 Well-Known Member

    Steam:
    ViewThePhenom
    Painwheel
    Peacock
    Cerebella
    Mike Z never had a problem with TOD, it was TOD for little resource expenditure or TOD combos that took forever. I don't think he's going to change anything based on being able to TOD a 2v2 character starting with 2 meter, since it sounds like you'll have to use 3 to actually do it.

    And there are no loops in SG (IPS prevents this).
     
  5. Vladislav_Paizis

    Vladislav_Paizis On hiatus from SG

    Location:
    Tallinn, Estonia
    Steam:
    Vladislav_Paizis
    PSN:
    Vlad7779311
    Ms. Fortune
    Eliza
    Unknown
    Double's Barrel Loop?
     
  6. View619

    View619 Well-Known Member

    Steam:
    ViewThePhenom
    Painwheel
    Peacock
    Cerebella
    By loop, I mean doing the same set of commands in a single combo over and over again, like l,m,h, xx barrel or something. To do Barrel Loops, you have to change the commands you use before the next barrel. For example, if I'm using Bella and I do jab, strong, fierce, xx Run Stop like multiple times , that would be looping.
     
  7. winnie

    winnie Bella Ball Champion

    Location:
    VA
    PSN:
    SG_winnie
    Filia
    Double
    A tier list is going to be highly debatable due to the fact that Squigly just came out and I for one don't know where to put her. But if you want to talk match ups I can shed my opinion on some of the more common match ups you see. (keep in mined this is my opinion not fact so if you don't like it tell my why and i might agree with you)

    Lets start with Peacock, I will assume that this is Peacock + Double butt because that is the strongest Peacock assist.
    Peacock vs. Parasoul: 7-3 (Parasoul is really bad in this match up)
    Peacock vs. Valentine: 3-7 (Val has many tools to get in and stay in)
    Peacock vs. Filia: 5-5 (no clear winner can go either way)
    Peacock vs. Fortune: N/A (I don't know this one)
    Peacock vs. Peacock: 5-5 (mirror matches in SG are wak)
    Peacock vs. Squigly: N/A (I don't know)
    Peacock vs. Painwheel: a very debatable 6-4 but it can go either way
    Peacock vs. Cerebella: 7-3 (this ones obvious)
    Peacock vs. Double: 4-6 (I think double can win this one if she is patent)

    Next up lets talk Filia. Filia has many great assists and play styles but her most common play style is all in rush down so ill be assuming the Filia player is using an assist that benefits this style of play.
    Filia vs. Parasoul: 6-4 (Filia is only a little bit stronger mostly because she has a better defense than Parasoul)
    Filia vs. Valentine: 4-6 (Val has an easy time shutting down Filia's movement)
    Filia vs. Filia: 5-5 (them mirror matches)
    Filia vs. Fortune: 4-6 (Fortune has great anti-airs and can punish Filia for to many IAD's)
    Filia vs. Peacock: 5-5 (no clear winner can go either way)
    Filia vs. Squigly: N/A
    Filia vs. Painwheel: 7-3 (Updo)
    Filia vs. Cerebella: 6-4 (Filia is just stronger than Cerebella but not by much)
    Filia vs. Double: 6-4 (This one is tuff but Filia still pulls out ahead)

    Double is one character those match ups I know well, she is a strong character but is lacking in many options that other characters have.
    Double vs. Parasoul: 4-6 (Double's defense is not strong enough to deal with most of Parasoul's mix ups)
    Double vs. Valentine: 4-6 (Val has more mobility and better pokes so I'd give her the advantage)
    Double vs. Filia: 4-6 (This one is tuff but Filia still pulls out ahead)
    Double vs. Fortune: 4-6 (Fortune has better options thats all)
    Double vs. Peacock: 6-4 (I think double can win this one if she is patent)
    Double vs. Squigly: N/A
    Double vs. Painwheel: 6-4 (Double can win air to air which is Painwheel's strong point)
    Double vs. Cerebella: 6-4 (Double has an option to beat all of Cerebella's tricks)
    Double vs. Double: 5-5 (you already know)

    These are the three characters I know best in terms of there match ups. I'll say this again that this is my own unbiased opinion of these match ups based on what I have seen and learned in the past that translates over to the current version of the game. Please feel free to call me out if you have a different opinion of these match ups. I would highly appreciate it if someone could post about the rest of the casts match ups. Thanks for reading.

    Just to throw in a tier list Ill do this:
    1. Valentine (she one EVO twice)
    2. Fortune (everyone says so)
    3. Parasoul (she has damage now)
    4. Filia (still just as good as last version)
    5. Cerebella (really good character just has problems getting in)
    6. Squigly (she is here because i don't know where to put her yet)
    7. Painwheel (stronger than before but still has problems dealing with uppercuts and other anti-airs)
    8. Double (still a good character just out shined by everyone else)
    9. Peacock (relies on assists to zone but even though she is at the bottom she is still playable)

    EDIT: I would like to note that if this tier list was done with letters instead of numbers there would only be two tiers A and A-. This is because I think that all the characters are very evenly balanced in SG but in order to properly rate who is the best I did it with numbers.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
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  8. Dagwood

    Dagwood Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Canada
    Steam:
    Dagwood
    PSN:
    crond1zzle
    Parasoul
    Cerebella
    Double
    A: Fortune, Filia
    A-: Peacock, Painwheel, Valentine, Double
    B: Parasoul, Squigly
    B-: Cerebella

    thats what I'm thinking atm
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
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  9. Vladislav_Paizis

    Vladislav_Paizis On hiatus from SG

    Location:
    Tallinn, Estonia
    Steam:
    Vladislav_Paizis
    PSN:
    Vlad7779311
    Ms. Fortune
    Eliza
    Unknown
    What? Valentine is Top Tier? Solo?
     
  10. rayplay

    rayplay aka solidoutlaw

    Location:
    Houston
    I'd argue Fila vs Val is actually an even matchup. Filia's j.HP beats out a good amount of Val's approaching air normals but it's countered by j.HK and s.HK. Up close, both of them have many options to keep each other on their toes, but neither can just bully the other.
     
  11. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Norcal
    Steam:
    remikz_
    PSN:
    RemiKz_
    Peacock
    Filia
    Cerebella
    Disagree with a few of those

    Peacock vs Filia is a bit in Filia's favor. She has the tools to get in on the gaps in peacock's keepaway.

    Peacock kind of wrecks Squigly if Squigly doesn't have a lot of meter recourse.

    Filia vs Parasoul is probably in Parasoul's favor. A Parasoul with good spacing can wall off a lot of Filia's options.

    Filia vs Valentine seems even-ish.

    Filia vs Painwheel isn't that much in Filia's favor imo.

    Filia vs Cerebella and Double is more even than being in anyone's favor.

    Double vs Fortune seems somewhat even to me.

    Some people might disagree with me but I feel like Double vs Peacock is in Peacock's favor.

    Double vs Bella can be pretty even imo. Cerebella has a few answers to some of double's tricks.
     
  12. Alstein

    Alstein Member

    Caveat: I'm average at best at this game, the really good players do stomp me, though I can sometimes sneak in a win and I think I do a pretty good job stomping bad players- I've had a few folks rage on me so I must be doing something right.

    No, it was 2 meters total usage. with 1 meter it's 95%. Did require corner I believe. Got hit by it 2 or 3 times. These combos also do 60-70 hits and last a good long while as well.

    As for loops, they're limited, but they're there, everyone knows them, so it becomes optimal/boring. What's needed is not to eliminate the loops, but to nerf how effective they are, and only nerfing those loops. (my idea would be to make non-jab/short normals used twice in an IPS phase count towards undizzy and possibly cause an increase in scaling as well) Loops would still be great for positioning, but this would probably be sufficient to cut the damage from 100% to 80-90%, or at least require a lvl 3 to 100% kill someone. I believe this nerf would only hit top-end combos, it wouldn't hit the combos normal players make, alongside certain players who only do loop combos (which you see tons of online, and it gets annoying/boring, esp if they have terrible neutral games)

    I believe this is an area where I do disagree with MikeZ, I get the impression from the stream that he thinks those sorts of combos are creative, but they stop being creative when everyone does it- the creativity in the game comes from resets/setups, which is the part I enjoy- TOD kills that part of the game, not only because resets become unneeded when you can just kill, but also the fear factor.

    Yeah, I know I'm complaining, if this game wasn't great otherwise I wouldn't be complaining because I'd play something else. I don't come from a Marvel background, I come from a VF background- and without the TODs SG has a lot of the aspects I enjoy about VF, though in a vastly different format. (I know, that's a comparison you don't see much- but SG and VF have a ton of similarities to me, even down to general awesomeness of each community)

    I have no problem with a solo char being able to TOD level 3 with use of a good number of bars, but 1-touch kills should be limited to those scenarios.

    Edit: I know I'm going way off-topic, I'm sorry and I know I shouldn't, if a mod wants to move this feel free, but I think this will determine tiers in the future under the current rules. Being able to not let the other person play is a huge advantage.
     
  13. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    I'd say that H.LnL takes this easy

    Pea Score accumulated is +2 (when compared to all 5-5)
    Double Score accumulated is -1

    How does Double place higher than Peacock on your tier list?

    Also, I'd rather place Peacock on S-Tier than on the last spot. She gained a LOT (most notably a viable Reversal and combos off Airthrow) for the Bombcancel- and ItemDrop nerfs (and Item Drop is actually still up in arms how much of a nerf it is with being able to access s.HP and Bang while charging).
    Her Zoning got nerfed yes, but when one plays more than 1/3 of her, I don't think the overall character got weaker at all. As a sidenote, she has the easiest time protecting her assists while also having the easiest time of hitting yours, which became a load more relevant with the lockout patch.
    An overall top neutral game (Val beats her and everyone else is good or even - as you even admitted), a safe DHC option, several strong assists, and the usual spliff splaff of high damage combos, stupid resets, etc
    I don't see how she would end up on the last spot.. at all.
     
  14. winnie

    winnie Bella Ball Champion

    Location:
    VA
    PSN:
    SG_winnie
    Filia
    Double
    Once you play Duckator you will understand why Val is the best, now that ToD's are a thing of the past there is nothing stoping her from being the best. Of course solo Val is still garbage

    I think your giving Peacock way to much credit. Yes she was S-tier in SDE but with all the new changes her zoning becomes way weaker. she has very weak mix ups other than teleport mix ups, her neutral game is predictable and when you face a Peacock you have no reason to call assist randomly and probably don't need it at all. Her defense is a bit stronger with the new reversals she has but if they get in your usually screwed anyway. This is not to say Peacock is bad though she dose have everything you mentioned but the problem is not her but the rest of the cast. Every other character is stronger than Peacock now that is why I put her on the bottom of the list. She can win but you have to put in more work with her than anyone else in the game.

    Oh and HK Hornet Bomber beats HP LnL but both are usable for zoning. HB has the ability to push your opponent to full screen if it hits and is an anti-air forcing them to duck mid-screen or close range.
     
  15. winnie

    winnie Bella Ball Champion

    Location:
    VA
    PSN:
    SG_winnie
    Filia
    Double
    This is a very close 6-4 I put Val over Filia only because i think Val's neutral game is stronger than Filia's. Val's j.hp, projectiles, throws, movement, and zoning tools are just a bit stronger than Filia's but up close its anyone's game.
     
  16. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    From the very limited time we've had with everything, my first take at a list would be

    S: Fortune
    A: Peacock, Valentine, Filia
    B: Parasoul, Painwheel, Double
    C: Bella, Squigly
     
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  17. winnie

    winnie Bella Ball Champion

    Location:
    VA
    PSN:
    SG_winnie
    Filia
    Double
    I would like to make a small comment about Fortune and why she is NOT the best character in SG.
    Until someone shows me that Fortune has better resets and neutral game than Valentine I believe that she is not the best character and if you think I'm wrong I challenge you to prove to me that Fortune is better. Even if everyone believes that Fortune is better in theory she is not offishly the best character until it is put into practice. So please someone show me why she is so good. (and don't just tell my to go watch Inuchiyo because he is good but that doesn't make Fortune the best in MDE)

    EDIT: sorry about my rant but I just had to say it
     
  18. GirlyStyle

    GirlyStyle Well-Known Member

    Parasoul
    Fukua
    Double
    S) Fortune, Val + Assist <- I feel like right now these are about even for me. Val HAS to have the apporpiate assist though. Once she does, I Feel like they are on same level.

    A) Filia, Peacock

    B) Double, Bella <- I feel like this tier has some of the more polarizing match ups, but are constantly solid in the utility department.

    C) Painwheel, Parasoul <- PW is good with really specific builds, but otherwise has hard time in neutral. Parasoul has a mix of some of the worst matchups along with worst damage in the game. Neither of these characters are bad, but comparably have less options, and I feel require more work then the rest of the cast.
     
  19. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    I don't think Fortune has better Resets and Neutral than Valentine

    However, Fortune has a place outside being point - she provides a toptier assist (that's also one of the best alpha counters in the game),
    she has an easier time burning through bar, as she can use for meter as a combo extensions and not just bypass knives,
    you can DHC into her and follow up with a combo if the head is already on the screen,
    she is not instantly dead when she's touched once as she has access to a DP

    Val is the best *point* character and uses assists really really well, but is also incredibly inflexible.
    Lots of red health on your Fortune? Mash a super, safe DHC, let her reg a bit and have a top tier assist as well as a toptier anchor lying in wait.
    Lots of red health on your Valentine? Mash a super, safe DHC, let her reg a bit and have ..... uuuuuuuuh ........ throw assist and solo val garbage in the back.
    This detracts quite a bit of points.
     
  20. GirlyStyle

    GirlyStyle Well-Known Member

    Parasoul
    Fukua
    Double

    This is why I think they are even.

    Fortune works better synergy wise, but you can't ignore the amazing neutral and damage potential of Val. Sacrificing one for the other.
     
  21. keninblack

    keninblack Lit Events Mod

    Location:
    Summit, NJ
    Parasoul
    Double
    Painwheel
    From the observations and shit that I've seen heres my tier list, and my little bit of playing. This includes all variables, all team sizes, and the metagame.

    A+: Valentine, Fortune, Parasoul, Filia, Cerebella.
    A: Painwheel, Squigly, Double, Peacock.

    If you think the game goes outside of more than 2 tiers you crazy. This game is balanced as fuck and everyone is stacked.
     
  22. GirlyStyle

    GirlyStyle Well-Known Member

    Parasoul
    Fukua
    Double
    [​IMG]
    You only thinking there is two tiers has less to do with the game and more to do with how you bracket them off in your mind.

    Balanced games where everyone is hella good can have multiple tiers. Look at ST, everyone is beast in that game and has options fallen out of their pockets and yet Cammy.
     
  23. keninblack

    keninblack Lit Events Mod

    Location:
    Summit, NJ
    Parasoul
    Double
    Painwheel
    Maan idk maaan I just feel like we need bring duh biddies closer together unowhuhisayian?
     
  24. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Fukua
    I don't have a tier list to submit, but I do think that peacock may well be the best character in the game. Her hard combos, who few to no one uses, really hurt and also give amazing resets.. Though once again at a price of upped execution. She kills other characters assists and protects her own amazingly. She has great defense now and has come all around.

    I think Winnie may be a bit biased cause he plays filia who actually serves up peacock on a platter if the peacock is weak with her zoning and reads (filia hits the gap between hk and lk bombs perfectly with her tk mk hairball, jump in hk hairball and ringlets to take advantage of peacock falling while doing j.hk xx airdash as well as being able to hit that particular pattern with random ground Gregor. As well as jump lk airball plus assist or not for being ale to move around without being locked down.

    The match is tough for peacock if the filia knows what she is doing, but you for filia if the peacock knows what she is doing. It's completely 5-5 but skill generally turns it into complete railroads for both sides dependent on who is the better player.
     
  25. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Norcal
    Steam:
    remikz_
    PSN:
    RemiKz_
    Peacock
    Filia
    Cerebella
    I mostly agree with keninblack's list, although maybe I would also consider splitting into 3 tiers.

    S: Valentine, Ms.Fortune
    A: Parasoul, Filia, Cerebella, Painwheel
    B: Double, Peacock, Squigly

    I'm tempted to place peacock higher but I'm not entirely sure how I feel about her changes yet. She gained a stagger, midscreen airthrow combos and a reliable reversal, but at the cost of some of her zoning tools. The split between MP and HP SoiD means she has access to different normals and specials while holding the shadow, but doesn't have a fullscreen threat anymore.

    I feel like Squigly is easily the most underwhelming character. Without meter and a good assist or two, I feel like she loses to everyone else in the neutral game. You could say she can be used as an assist character, but the most commonly used one (drag n bite) already has good alternatives in other characters. Center stage and maaaaaaybe silver chord are the only things that honestly make her stand out as an assist.
     
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  26. winnie

    winnie Bella Ball Champion

    Location:
    VA
    PSN:
    SG_winnie
    Filia
    Double
    Im not going to jump on the Fortune band wagon until someone shows me that Fortune is worthy of best character in all honesty I think Fortune is on the lower have of the tier list (like bottom 5) due to the fact that no one plays her to her full potential or at least the way that makes her the best.
     
  27. Horseman

    Horseman This place ain't how it used to be

    Peacock
    Fukua
    Big Band
    Peacock vs. Fortune is in ms. fortune's favor, a well-placed head can stop george's day out from being a nuisance and peacock has to seriously fear getting nom'd by her head. The head blocking, however, is definitely a trade-off, since the head takes significantly more chip damage than a good old-fashioned block would. I would say 3-7, although that's plenty debatable.

    Peacock vs. Squigly is definitely in peacock's favour; Squigly has tools to get in and deal damage, but she has a really hard time charging them, and their uncharged versions generally don't do a very good job of stopping peacock. I'd say 7-3.

    I disagree on Double vs. Peacock, especially if she lacks an assist; her best answer is to try and hitconfirm luger into bandwagon at a long range or to go for cat heads. I mean, she already has trouble closing that gap without an assist against everyone else; when you factor in 2 bombs, 3 bullets and a teacup falling on her head she's got trouble.

    As for the actual tier lists, I would do them in teams. Characters like double and val desperately need an assist to be at their best.

    It's less about the game being unbalanced, but more about 2 tiers not being even near descriptive enough.
    The game is pretty much the most balanced fighter I've ever played. Every character is perfectly playable all the way up to the highest level of play. That said, there's no reason not to use more than 2 tiers. If it would bug you to use the letter scales because they imply that characters in the lowest tiers have failed (F tier), then use a number system. It's just silly to go with this "everyone wins!" idea of a tier list because it doesn't really give any information on which characters are really better than others.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  28. @OmniSScythe

    @OmniSScythe Valentine Player

    My thoughts on Valentine's match up:

    Vs Parasoul: 4:6
    Her normals both air and ground beats Val's pretty convincingly, it's easily Val's most assist reliant match up. Prepare to see lots of deadly cross's being throw. However due to Para's size, lacking of an air super, a double jump and a really honest DP Val has a really easy time landing resets, fuzzies and converting from random hits on her.

    Vs Painwheel: Even
    This match up heavy in the favor of who ever gets momentum first, Val's average assists all gives her a warrant to invade Painwheel's personal space on the regular. Has to watch up for charged normals since her multi hit attack aren't meant to be use as air to airs. Well, except during resets and on painwheel incoming, j.MP beats reversal air super free.

    Vs Squigly: Even
    Play me Gultalex, I want to learn~

    Vs Valentine: 8:2 in OmniSScythe's favor

    Vs Filia: 6:4
    Val's standing jab and cr.MP makes short work of Filia iad shenanigans, rule of thumb is if you didn't anti-air her she probably didn't hit you either. Air to air wise, Val can either use j.LP to preemptively beats out stuff, j.MK for air spacing or jump back j.HK to take on short range attacks.

    Vs: Peacock: Even
    In SDE I would had said this match up was definitely in Peacock favor when both are well assisted despite the weird looks I get when I mention this (Get better scrubs! Kappa) However with Peacock ability to keep air traffic slightly weaken and Squigly's silver chord making the match up hella easier it rounds out at being even.

    Vs Fortune Even-Head on/4:6-Headless
    Head on it's just a fight between two similar equipped characters, once the head start's rolling all of Fortune options comes with their own form of coverage with her gaining a 22 inch portable wall complete with torrents and a pitfall. Val just really lacks a reliable way of keeping that head in check.

    Vs Double 6:4
    Double is almost completely reliant on assist and good spacing in this match up, once Val is up close expect the fun to have ended. Having two meter on hand means that reversal swag wagon is no longer a free escape since counter works extremely well on it.

    Vs Cerebella 6:4
    Never attempt to have an air to air battle or anti-air her (preemptive j.LP is recommend, jump back j.HK loses most of the time) , her air normals are too good. Beside that just be sure to peck at her with deadly crosses and assist and this match up will be pretty open and shut. Try not to be within close range with your assist unless Bella is locked down twice, reversal super is her life blood.

    PS: Assume all this takes place an a well assisted 3v3 team scenario. I wanted to use .5 but I leave it like this for now.

    As for tiers, I'll pass on that for now. (Valentine is still low tier in my heart~)
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
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  29. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Norcal
    Steam:
    remikz_
    PSN:
    RemiKz_
    Peacock
    Filia
    Cerebella
    Just to name a few things:
    - Has one of the highest damage outputs in the game
    - Aside from cerebella's devil horn, fortune has the only reversal that you can combo off of meterless without the need of a corner.
    - Fastest low in the game with great range
    - An airdash and a double jump
    - An invincible reversal that is POSITIVE on block and staggers
    - Can control a lot of space headless
    - Versatile/flexible
    - Good assist/great alpha counter

    Honestly the only thing about fortune that stands out as not being very good is her aerials aren't that great in air-to-air situations.
     
  30. Alstein

    Alstein Member

    I pretty much agree with this list, though I throw Parasoul up to S.

    And again, seeing the compressed tiers reminds me of VF, which is a good thing.
     
  31. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Steam:
    KhaosMuffins
    PSN:
    KhaosMuffins
    Ms. Fortune
    Unknown
    Unknown
    I feel like I'm going to make people angry with this, and a lot of people will probably disagree with me but... screw it.

    Fortune matchups:
    Vs Filia 5:5 - Fortune can't touch Filia air-to-air and Filia's speed makes it difficult for Fortune to get in a good position that is above Filia. On the other hand, Fiber Upper keeps Filia from doing whatever she wants, though such an obvious answer to Filia's IADs can also lead to an obvious bait. Both characters can get good damage off of a DP, it's just that Fortune can do so without meter. Other than that, it's actually pretty even, in my opinion.

    Vs Valentine 5:5 - Valentine also rocks Fortune air-to-air and has similar mobility options, and if Valentine decides to stay in the air then she doesn't have to deal with the head as much as other characters (sneeze only reaches up so high). Val has the better neutral game due to her superior normals and they both have double jumps and airdashes. Valentine's biggest issue is that if her assist is on CD or if she doesn't have meter (which if you are good with managing meter you should always have meter even with the nerfs, really) and gets cornered she's gonna have to respect Fortune.

    Vs Peacock solo 7:3 - Why would you do this?

    Vs Peacock w/ Double 6:4 - https://docs.google.com/document/d/15JJ1-m37Cg1FJhFnFvDTQbwEnR7_uAwgY93X8sc1Yew/edit
    Vs Peacock w/ Cerecopter assist 4:6 - https://docs.google.com/document/d/15JJ1-m37Cg1FJhFnFvDTQbwEnR7_uAwgY93X8sc1Yew/edit

    Vs Cerebella 7:3 - https://docs.google.com/document/d/15JJ1-m37Cg1FJhFnFvDTQbwEnR7_uAwgY93X8sc1Yew/edit

    Vs Painwheel 4:6 - https://docs.google.com/document/d/15JJ1-m37Cg1FJhFnFvDTQbwEnR7_uAwgY93X8sc1Yew/edit
    (It's all the same document)

    Vs Double 4:6 - Fortune has a hard time getting a good hit on Double since she can't really approach Double due to j.HP and j.HK. j.HK controls the air above Double, and Fortune excels when she is above her opponent. j.HP has a large enough hitbox that even when Fortune is above and does a j.LK she'll probably lose out due to disjointed hitboxes and whatnot. Fortune can try getting a hit with the head, but there is no reason for the Double to just not block the head and let it cooldown while keeping Fortune out with her improved Luger shots.

    Vs Parasoul 6:4 - Parasoul's normals are amazing and will beat out Fortune all the time unless Fortune is above Parasoul. Parasoul's j.HP can kind of deal with Fortune when's up above, but Parasoul's biggest issue is that she does not have the mobility to get around the head so she has to watch out for it more than other characters when she decides to go on the offensive lest she go for a j.HP and land into a head nom. Napalm shots and tears can kind of keep Fortune at bay for a bit (MK Napalm shot is especially nice for when the Fortune decides to Fiber Upper around), but Fortune doesn't really have much trouble getting around these.

    Vs Squigly 6:4? - Yeeeah I dunno. Fiber upper eats dive kicks and Squigly's j.HP all day, though SBO can do a pretty good job of keeping Fortune from moving around (read: tame). It's still early but if I had to throw out numbers I'd say 6:4.

    Vs Fortune 0:0 - If both Fortune players are headless then it messes up a lot of combos. It's actually really silly to watch and play this match, especially when both players are just throwing out Fiber Upper. Based God forbid that the heads are similar colors.

    This is just my personal opinion. Honestly, it'd be great to be able to check this with other Fortune players... all 3 of you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
    thederphog and winnie like this.
  32. Age

    Age Well-Known Member

    A: Filia, Peacock
    B: Cerebella, Valentine, Double, Fortune, Painwheel, Parasoul
    C: Squigly

    Filia is still a god, her damage is way down from SDE, but her hitboxes, resets, and rushdown are still as oppressive as they were for the most part. I don't really understand the changes to her updo, but I'm assuming it's still one of the top assists in the game, making her good anywhere on a team.

    Peacock lost some of her zoning tools, and a great assist, but still remains one of the best point characters to shut down specific matchups or to use as a battery.

    Cerebella is SG's doctor doom. So many great assists, and if you make mistakes against her, she can run through your whole team. She doesn't quite run the show as hard as the top two until she gets a read and some good resets though.

    Valentine's normals keep surprising me with the ways they can be used, and she's probably the best point for baiting/patient play. Her defensive game holds her back though.

    Double feels weird now, I don't see her neutral as particularly good but others have been having success with her. Cat heads dhc makes her the best support in the cast.

    Fortune has a lot of unlocked potential to maintain constant pressure, but I think her assists/dhc options are still a bit lacklustre.

    Painwheel gained one of the best incoming dhcs in the game, and her point game is improved. Her assists and defense on the ground are a bit meh, but I could see her getting in the top 3 depending on how the game develops.

    Parasoul struggles against Peacock, and is weak to air resets (which Filia is adept with). With the changes to egret charge and tear shot explosions, her assists are also no longer as amazing as they were. She's plenty viable, I just don't feel like she's fairing any better now than she was in sde.

    Squigly...feels weak overall to me, but certainly has some strengths of her own. She has better grounded mixups than parasoul, and her floaty jumps let her play a baiting game. The problem is how much anti-air assists (excellabella in particular) limit her options.
     
  33. Alstein

    Alstein Member

    It's nice to see so many varied opinions, outside of a few things.

    Conclusions
    a) No one thinks Peacock is mid, she's either top or bottom
    b) everyone seems to think Fortune and Valentine are real good.
    c) I think folks are underrating Double, esp vs Peacock.
    d) With so many folks saying the tiers are fairly compressed, and disagreements being common at this point- MikeZ has done a very good job in terms of balance.
    e) Most folks seem to underrate their own chars
     
  34. destruction_adv

    destruction_adv Yare Yare Daze

    Valentine
    Filia
    Double
    yeah, that's the impression I'm getting. Except maybe the underrating part, I don't really know who plays who. Well, the double part I'm not sure about either.
     
  35. winnie

    winnie Bella Ball Champion

    Location:
    VA
    PSN:
    SG_winnie
    Filia
    Double
    Just for that I'm going to make some bias comments about Filia and Double. (my main team) Filia is top 3 because she can do what every she wants and if she gets hit you can just mash updo in to super into dhc if they can even punish Gregor. (which most people cant) Double would be top 3 if she had more than j.hp, j.hp is an amazing move but its all she has until you get a solid hit. Reset wise Double is crazy. (oh don't forget catheads OP!) There that help you understand the glory that is Filia Double.

    (Most of this should not be taken seriously I'm just saying things to say things) :p
     
  36. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Steam:
    KhaosMuffins
    PSN:
    KhaosMuffins
    Ms. Fortune
    Unknown
    Unknown
    I guess I'll throw up a list as well, though it is too early to throw up a tier list (but hey, that's what makes this fun).
    This is a team game, so I'm making this list assuming that the characters are backed by an "optimal" assist (because who in their right mind would play solo?).

    A+: Filia, Fortune, Valentine(?)
    A: Valentine(?), Painwheel (Nail buffs, Hatred Install buffs)
    B: Peacock, Double, Parasoul
    C: Squigly(?), Cerebella

    I used to have Fortune and Filia as "S tier" in SDE, but they've been brought down quite a bit to the other character's levels. Hell, I would've put Fortune down in A if not for axe kick loops coming back (which buffed headless damage and... probably should not have come back, in my opinion). Not quite sure where Valentine lies, but she is very strong. She just can't do whatever she wants as much as Fortune and Filia. Squigly is fairly dangerous up close, and she has good range on her normals, but honestly she doesn't seem all that special. But she's a new character, so we will see how she develops over time. Ultimately, I think that the game is pretty balanced and the tiers aren't really all that far apart.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  37. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

    Location:
    Europe (UK)
    Steam:
    DixiE
    PSN:
    DARKNESSxEAGLE
    Filia
    Cerebella
    Ms. Fortune
    I'm not really an expert player, nor have I even played around in MDE at all, but I think Fortune gets a bit more credit than she really should.

    In SDE there's no denying she was top-tier (from my experience anyway), but a lot of the complaints were refutable by people who actually played as her and/or understood the matchup. The biggest real issues were the combo lengths given courtesy of the head and LP Fiber Upper being invulnerable with no startup and leading into a combo without use of meter.

    The Fiber Uppers were never good assists even back then, her assist selection was pretty weak, all she offered was the Alpha Counter (which I believe has been solved in MDE due to reduced invulnerability, making it no better than Updo alpha counter other than a potential meterless combo).

    She still has her pressure and safety from the head, but in terms of her usefulness as an assist she's got nothing. She definitely has the advantage in a solo v solo battle, but in a team battle she plays very much like a solo character with less health and less damage output, as few assists offer anything her head doesn't already supply which makes a match against another team fair as they have access to assists to compensate for the lack of head.

    Also, Mike's patch notes from SDE to MDE look like headless Fortune received a bunch of changes to weaken her, but I don't really know the impact of any of these changes other than the Rekka and Fiber Upper alterations.

    She's probably the same level as Filia now, which is how it was in SDE.
    KhaosMuffins' tier list seems agreeable to me:
    although I'd probably stick Bella in B with Peacock
     
    winnie likes this.
  38. dekillsage

    dekillsage Gloomy EVO Champ 2014

    Beowulf
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    As of right now I think its...

    A+: Filia, Fortune, Double
    A: Parasoul, Valentine, Cerebella, Painwheel
    A-: Peacock, Squigly
     
    thederphog and DARKNESSxEAGLE like this.
  39. Spencer

    Spencer Painwheel

    Location:
    Wyoming
    Steam:
    qspec
    Painwheel
    Squigly
    I agree that this MU is entirely dependent upon momentum, but I would say that Val has a slight advantage (6-4?) overall (1v1).

    - She is more mobile than PW despite PW's fly. I actually hate this MU because it is boring trying to chase Val around for 60 seconds.
    - PW needs to be above her opponent for her air game to shine. Val easily stays above PW.
    - Val has enough multihits to make HG risky. Charged j.hp is easily taken care of by zombie for example.
    - PW lives in the sky but has terrible air priority. Val is so fast she easily capitalizes on this. I cannot count how many time I've been air-thrown out of j.mp from a Val who seemed impossibly far away.
    - Can't block in flight which makes her prone to the dash super or flatliner special.
     
  40. DukeMagus

    DukeMagus Not A Duke; THE Duke

    I say we should make the Tier list the old way: compiling tournament results to see where it wins or loses more often.

    it'd give a hard-to-deny basis for the comments
     
    winnie likes this.

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