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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

DukeMagus said:
I say we should make the Tier list the old way: compiling tournament results to see where it wins or loses more often.

it'd give a hard-to-deny basis for the comments
The problem with that is that tournament attendance for Skullgirls is... yeah. :( Most tournaments seem to have, at most, 3-4 good players (if 3-4 players even showed up).
 
DukeMagus said:
I say we should make the Tier list the old way: compiling tournament results to see where it wins or loses more often.

it'd give a hard-to-deny basis for the comments

How do you do that with variable team sizes and assist options?
 
Spencer said:
How do you do that with variable team sizes and assist options?

then we CAN'T have a tier list for the same reason.

it's too much info, too many different choices. as i've said before (2nd posting on this topic) it could only work decently in a 1vs1 comparison.

All of the rest will be excessive arguing and i have my doubts about how solid a list can be that way. Maybe if we ask the EVO's top 3 to make their tier lists... they're undeniably good, and have experience with the game. their oppinion is worth a lot;
 
@OmniSScythe said:
Vs Painwheel: Even
This match up heavy in the favor of who ever gets momentum first, Val's average assists all gives her a warrant to invade Painwheel's personal space on the regular. Has to watch up for charged normals since her multi hit attack aren't meant to be use as air to airs. Well, except during resets and on painwheel incoming, j.MP beats reversal air super free.
~)

I have nothing but respect for you as a player as I've always had you and Pali pegged as the best sg players (along with duck of course)

But to me this makes no sense. In your first line you say that whoever gets momentum first will be heavily favored...but you don't mention that Val will usually have either an updo or pillar backing her up, which almost totally counters painwheel, along with the fact that Val is probably the best in the game at converting otg assist hits (outside of metered peacock). While painwheel will usually have at best an lk or mk bomber which Val shits all over but being high in the air.

Painwheel can grab her own updo or pillar but then it totally becomes a match of mobility plus assist conversion... Which Val owns easily.

Val also has some of the most natural counters to painwheels flight in bypass... Not that it would matter that much in pinwheel actually flying since no good painwheel is going to fly predictably against Val... But that's the point. Bypass keeps painwheel flightless as does updo.


Painwheel has nothing that really restricts Val's movement at all. And can't really get an assist that does either.


To me this is an EASY 6-4 matchup. It's just spacing/neutral heavy at the beginning till painwheel gets desperate and gets hit by an updo, or Val takes advantage of painwheels defensiveness cause of updo/Bomber/pillar
 
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Dime_x said:
I have nothing but respect for you as a player as I've always had you and Pali pegged as the best sg players (along with duck of course)

But to me this makes no sense. In your first line you say that whoever gets momentum first will be heavily favored...but you don't mention that Val will usually have either an updo or pillar backing her up

It's actually within the very first sentence I wrote, Val's average or rather regular assists including but not limited to "updo", fiber upper", "bomber", and "pillar" of course.


which almost totally counters painwheel, along with the fact that Val is probably the best in the game at converting otg assist hits (outside of metered peacock). While painwheel will usually have at best an lk or mk bomber which Val shits all over but being high in the air.

tbh while I don't use Updo myself I've seen people like Negus and Domo avoid or tank Fiber up with a charged air attack back into fly a few times, not sure if Updo carries a property to avoid that. However while Val can convert from otg's greatly, Painwheel can do just that from any air confirm she can manage.

Painwheel has nothing that really restricts Val's movement at all. And can't really get an assist that does either.

Bomber/Updo/Cerecoptor all actually does a decent job holding back Val from getting started, especially when used to counter call Val's own assist (That 120 frame or so of assist call being locked add up, even more so when it's bleeding). Air to air wise Painwheel's normal tend to out range/angle a lot of Val's attack, adding those assist (Cerecoptor stops all assist calls early) making it less likely for Val to commit to attacking.


I do see your side of things, but painwheel is far from helpless, she even avoid stuff even peacock will be forced to deal with, it's .5 at the worst.
 
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DukeMagus said:
I say we should make the Tier list the old way: compiling tournament results to see where it wins or loses more often.

it'd give a hard-to-deny basis for the comments

Good idea, now where are the tournament results? And can we get more than 8 man tournaments to use for results, please?
 
@@OmniSScythe

I see what you are saying as well... Painwheel definitely isn't helpless... That's why I only think its 6-4 not insurmountable by any means. Not a stupid sf4 6-4 which means damn near unwinnable (fucking sf4 crackheads/09ers messing with matchup numbers)
But a cvs2 6-4 which basically mean what it means... Sight advantage, but better player should still win even on the disadvantaged side.

Also, if memory serves correctly, Val's j.hk owns doubles j.hp and painwheels j.mp easy... Like stupid easy. If you aren't already using those in the matchup I think you should, they wreck her and I personally don't know what to do about it besides jump into it and pushblock (my standard answer for anything that I can't outprioritize)

What painwheels are you playing that you are basing your numbers off of? Skyking domo and negus seem to be the best to me and you beat negus at the last tournie...


-edit
I can't tag your name... Lol. Is that not an @? At the beginning of your name?
 
@Dime_x

My name is broken, literally.

Also all I ever do is jump back j.HK, it's gotten to the point that other Val's will do the very same start of the round against me. But really Val's j.HK and Pain/Double's shared air normal both works the same way, it's better to stick out in reverse.

I've played all of them including MGV as well, Negus actually reset the bracket on me (granted it's my shoddy Nadia fault) and Domo I had to come up with a way to counter his play style before we played in tourney as well.

I could just be not realizing how derp Updo is since I can't sync with Filia at all~
 
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...er yeah I forgot to mention ncv and mgv as well. That's disrespect so I added a post for them.
 
DukeMagus said:
it'd give a hard-to-deny basis for the comments

Hehe.

I don't think the point of a tier list thread is to have a authoritative top-down judgement of character strength. That's for individuals whose opinions are respected to that degree to put out on their own. These threads are more about finding out how other players view the characters and coming to your own conclusions based on the insight they provide and your own experience. You might quote character representation in tournaments as reasoning for your own views on character strength, but I personally wouldn't find that any more convincing than theory-fighter if it contradicted my own experience.
 
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Every time I fight valentine as bella I get jabbed whenever I do anything
then I die
What do I do?!!!!
 
Age said:
Snip

I concur. That is how I think of tier list discussions. I'm not particularly fussed about what the actual tier list is... I'm going to use who I use regardless (though when presented with overwhelming evidence such as umvc3 zero I might change my mind and try to pick up a top tier characte), I for the most part want to know what a characters strengths and weaknesses are and I find tier list discussions better for that than individual forums as well as being less to read than individual forums.

Tier lists are kinda to me just a litmus test to keep things on the straight and narrow: this character is good because of this. This character is bad because of that. This character loses to x character because of y poke/strategy/style differences/bad state such as cornered or knocked down etc etc etc.

In general I'm more apt to trust what is written in a heavily debated tier list than I am to go off of what is said in any individual forum. And the reason why is tier lists generally always have more individuals giving input in them (AND THEY HAVE BOTH SIDES OF THE COIN IN MANY MATCHUPS). they are a way to Learn about characters whose forums you would hp ever bother going into, In the first place... Like fortunes or filias forums for me... And other characters forums for others.
 
Out of my own curiosity, for the people who think Parasoul is high tier, why is that? I don't doubt you have your reasons, but i just think she is pretty lower
 
She was "bad" in SDE because of her damage output. She has the damage she was missing and more. Good enough for me
 
GirlyStyle said:
Out of my own curiosity, for the people who think Parasoul is high tier, why is that? I don't doubt you have your reasons, but i just think she is pretty lower

With the speed change to the game it makes her mix ups stronger and with an already great neutral game all she needed was damage to be top tier.
 
Her damage is still worst in the game though. Those aren't the only reasons I think she is not great either. She has to work harder for her damage, her truly optimized stuff is like around 7.4-8 k (maybe? haven't been keeping up on this as much as I could be), which is pretty weak.

Due to the nature of her reversal, she is more suspectable to extreme offense then other characters. Her mixups are either super react-able or have very clear ways around them, they require hard reads which lead to her losing her pressure very easily on a wrong guess.
 
I'm a bit bias because I play keninblack all the time and he uses lk hornet bomber which covers all of those problems you listed. (i think she has the strongest corner pressure in the game too)
 
winnie said:
I'm a bit bias because I play keninblack all the time and he uses lk hornet bomber which covers all of those problems you listed. (i think she has the strongest corner pressure in the game too)

I can understand that mentality. A couple of the top players use her. I also use lk bomber, and although I agree it is the best assist for her (and one of the best pairings for synergy in the game,) it doesn't really solve her reversal problem because of its arc and because it doesn't have any invincibility until the 2nd or third frame, and combining that with the 2 frames of vulnerability on an assist call = it gets stuffed a lot.

LK Bomber is amazing for offense though, and I think she has the the best corner game other then Filia and Bella.
 
Ooohhh.... Every character has good corner game. But I think filias is by far the best. That bitch makes her entire living in the corner... You could call the corner filias place and not be wrong. Parasoul still has alpha counters to get out of her mixup as a threat in the corner... Filia seems to have less problems with ac. And parasoul generally NEEDS that hornet bomber/pw cr.mp/Bella cerecopter to go into op mode... Filia needs only herself really.

Bella is quite stupid as well cause can't run from command grabs and oppressive priority while cornered...but it's still all filia for corner cheese... She's like head and shoulders above the rest of the cast for corner technician.

Parasoul though having relatively safe pillar xx bikes can hamper good corner offense if she gets a charge AND finds a relatively good hole to place it in.
 
I think one thing we can take away from this is that most people think Squigly is sitting at the bottom of the heep and I'm inclined to agree.

I mean, yeah, once you're up close she has a ton of shenanigans she can do with her stance cancels but her neutral game isn't great and her defensive options are basically non-existent. Having some of the slowest Light normals in the game doesn't help either.
 
Squiggly is on the bottom of most peoples lists right now due to an unfamiliarity with tools; I have seen Guitalex do some pretty beast things with her, so I think her placement is still up in the air
 
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GirlyStyle said:
Squiggly is on the bottom of most peoples lists right now due to an unfamiliarity with tools; I have seen Guitalex do some pretty beast things with her, so I think her placement is still up in the air


This is exactly what I think as well. I don't think she's easy to zone out at this point in time and her upclose jump wiff j.lp xx dive kick is troublesome and killed me for a long time till I realized to just pushblock it (its good cause the wiffed j.lp beats any air to air AA attempts while buffering the dive kick gives ground pressure if the decided to stay on the ground... An option select basically)

That alone gives her some good pressure type stuff and double jump plus dive kick while calling out an assist along with j.hp should give her all the neutral she needs plus she's got some crazy hard to see resets. I can't see her tools putting her anywhere below midtier at this point.

Biggest worry about her to me is her throw game seems kinda lackluster midscreen.

But that's theory fighter except for the divekick stuff. She also has safe dhc in many positions and über level 3... Really can't see her as bottom. Well right now I can, but her potential is amazing.


-edit

Scratch that her combo potential from throw midscreen is perfectly fine. She seems like a good character to me.
 
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The problem with squigly is that her ground movement is rather slow and limited, so you will see a lot of squiglys jumping around looking to get a divekick in.

This ties into the fact that EVERYONE runs some sort of uppercut (updo/pillar/fibber) or hornet bomber which makes it really difficult for her to actually land that hit. Characters like painwheel, who also focus on the air, at least has ways to sponge that kind of stuff and even has an air super to further help her. SBO can help her get something started, but she isn't always going to have meter ready.

She can definitely act upon actually landing a hit, but honestly her neutral game seems very limited right now. I can see Center Stage playing a big role later on.
 
For me:
1: Fortune
2: Filia, Valentine, Peacock
3: Parasoul, Painwheel, Double
4: Bella, Squigs

Including my own rankings of the characters, I have compiled a chart of everyone who listed a tier list. I used the order you put them in because otherwise it'd be too scattered with letter rankings and I'd rather just rank them 1-9 anyway even if you think some are even in strength.

iH2qx9UjBZ1X4.png


I think it'd be pretty cool to get a larger sample size for this.
 
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> 1 <
Parasoul, Painwheel

> 2 <
Fortune, Double

> 3 <
Peacock, Filia

> 4 <
Valentine

> 5 <
Bella, Squigly

Based solely on my opinion. I play Painwheel and feel she's absolutely ridiculous, and probably next in line for the nerf bat as her meta is mapped out more.

Valentine may surprise some, but I feel like she's very fragile and transparent outside of her aggression, and that her damage isn't really proportional to the risks she takes.

Filia is in the same boat as Valentine, but simply has a great assist to offer and has good tools for picking up combos from anywhere in almost any situation. She may be relatively easy to see coming, but she's still as solid as you can be for such a straightforward character.
 
worldjem said:
iH2qx9UjBZ1X4.png


I think it'd be pretty cool to get a larger sample size for this.
Structure data! Awesome!
The averages (to 1 d.p.) are
Fortune: 2.1
Filia: 2.6
Valentine: 2.9
Peacock: 5.6
Parasoul: 5.0
Cerebella: 6.4
Double: 6.3
Painwheel: 6.0
Squigly: 8.4

These may be wrong as i just quickly did 'em in my head, and I haven't excluded anomalies (i.e. Fortune's 6) so if anyone wants to check over them and correct them, feel free to do so.
 
My opinion:
S: Painwizard
A+: Filia, Fortune, Parasoul, Double
A: Valentine, Peacock
C: Cerebella, Squigly

I'm not a high level player though
 
@RemiKz

Well in that case every characters fucked, cause updo and pillar throw huge monkey wrenches in every characters game. Like, watch duckator or sev play against each other or even wing zero and look at how much off assist play there is... They almost don't attack without the help of there assists and like 80% of confirms from neutral are updo confirms... Or assist confirms in general.... It's just the way the game is played. Val is likewise rather hampered without assists yet people still think she's the best or one of the best.

I'm not saying that updo doesn't put a cramp in her game I'm just not seeing how it gimps her any worse than anyone else. Val literally just sits there double jumping and calling assist all day or running in and .... Calling assist... Lol

Squigs has a run for easier conversion of updo hits and the like so she won't be as gimped as painwheel when needing conversions and likewise, squigs can double jump forward while blocking to move forward safely... Something that painwheel and parasoul can't do.

At evo sg was all about double jumping around while calling updo... Both teams I lost to had updo with double jumpers that could run and convert otg (Val with updo and fortune with updo) unsurprisingly the teams played fairly similar in the neutral... I don't think it will be that much different with squigs...
Double jump /runners or quick dash characters:

Double
Fortune
Val
Squigly
Peacock

Which is very good company cause only double really is looked at as low tier there and that's more than likely before people acclimate to how good double now is with an invincible assist... She was good before... But now... Lol super easy conversion.

Empty double jump is one of the best forms of movement in the game right now, right up there with dash or run jump. You get higher than any other jump while still being able to call assists from macro and leaving yourself open to basically nothing besides a perfectly timed updo that hits just as you double jump... But that's meh. Anyways just saying that it is basically sg's version of mvc2 super jump and any character that has it is auto midtier or higher in my book... And give them a run as well and its a wrap for having the tools needed to succeed in sg. Filia gets a pass cause lk airball is basically a near fully functional version of a double jump... That also goes much further forward than most double jumps and has the ability to cancel into dash plus assist calls.
 
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I'm curious if anyone would enlighten me on why a lot of people think Cerebella's bottom tier.
 
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Dime_x said:
@RemiKz

They almost don't attack without the help of there assists and like 80% of confirms from neutral are updo confirms...

My criticism with this game in a nutshell.

I've no idea how, but I would love for "defensive assists" to be more difficult to confirm or... something.
 
Fatalis said:
I'm curious if anyone would enlighten me on why a lot of people think Cerebella's bottom tier.

slow, doesnt have fast high/low, can't get big combo off midscreen throws besides MGR, tumble run options are unsafe, not great at converting off assists. She's not horrible or anything just the other chars are better. Her assists and her level 3 are great though.
 
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Dime_x said:
@RemiKz
At evo sg was all about double jumping around while calling updo...
:(
The change to assists (namely assist lockout) makes just jumping around calling assists less viable, I'd say. Because of the lockout, you can't just use your assist to play the neutral game for you all the time anymore.
 
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^^ very true.

But I don't think it will stop people from spamming assists. It will just make people protect them more or go into damage control mode when locked out. When its something fundamental you don't stop doing it... You just live with the consequences for doing It wrong.
 
Fatalis said:
I'm curious if anyone would enlighten me on why a lot of people think Cerebella's bottom tier.

Probably because of her match up spread
 
Cerebella is an interesting character. Most of her resets involve cross ups or throw baits and some of them are unsafe on block. She is a scary character of she can get in but lack the tools to get in and stay there. Her damage out put and come back potential make her a strong character but not the best.
 
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worldjem said:
For me:
1: Fortune
2: Filia, Valentine, Peacock
3: Parasoul, Painwheel, Double
4: Bella, Squigs

I liked your list and format so I decided to steal it and make the changes that reflect my thinking:

1.filia
2.valentine,peacock,fortune.
3.Bella,parasoul,double,painwheel

Squigly its to early to tell for me... Though I think that if this game were released like last week... We would all think squigly was tops... Divekick and j.hp... That bodes well for her except that people thought painwheel was top for like the first month or 2. But barring that, most characters that are top at the beginning stay that way.


Honestly at this pont I think its mostly splitting hairs. I could easily say its just filia at the top with everyone making up the second tier. I think what matters most is team composition and character order. Obvious I guess... But what I'm trying to say is that I think that every character is top if on the right team in the right place/order

For instance I think pw is a great anchor now because alot of things changed from sde to PC to help her meta out:

Great synergy with squigly, has an assist that squigly can abuse well.
Safe dhc now more viable with lowered meter cost.
A true lvl 3.
Double car into install and squigly sbo into install is really good.
Double can now use cr.mp assist way more effectively than before since it synergizes with flesh step crossup so well and since double now has a cancelable dash to make it easier to pressure with dash in offense as well as better spaced jumpins.


All of that is buffs to painwheels support game (with the exception to her supers)... And they are all great. Painwheels point play however is only slightly improved cause stingers still take a forever to startup even when doing a lvl 1 stinger.

Not that I'm complaining, on the contrary I'm ecstatic for painwheels buffs and think they are all fantastic while not changing her into something she isn't...

Point being that she now has a great use on certain teams either as the secondary character or as the anchor. Before the only real places he cold be out to maximize her strengths was at first position cause she had a bad/no direct damage lvl3 and an assist that few characters could make good. But that has been completely turned around and she is now a really good support character that can come in and turn the tide if need be.

And double of all characters got the reverse... Better on point now since catheads abuse can't be relied on to win games in the final hour with their heavy meter restriction.
 
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