The Annie Patch: Changes and Beta Discussion

Discussion in 'Gameplay General' started by Cattfish, Feb 9, 2021.

  1. Cattfish

    Cattfish Active Member

    Location:
    Charlotte, VT
    Steam:
    IBelieveIn720
    Robo Fortune
    Double
    This may not take off, but here is a starting post. Per Liam's suggestion of using SH as an easy, central location to discuss changes, it's time to regroup and discuss a patch in one location.

    I will update this post with group approval. It will contain reasonable suggestions for character fixes, reasonable bug fixes, and other pertinent information.

    Note: There is no date announced for the Annie Patch currently. This post is not meant to alarm you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
  2. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

    Location:
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Steam:
    fullbleed
    PSN:
    nFuLLBLeeD
    Ms. Fortune
    Big Band
    Nerf Lenny
     
  3. SeaJay

    SeaJay Armor Enthusiast

    Steam:
    https://steamcommunity.com/id/sea_jay
    Painwheel
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    I've never used SH before. I'll write out some stuff that I'd like to see. Not a complete list, but it's probably better to cut out the fluff.

    Some of these might not be practical to implement, but that's ok.
    • Fix an unintentional behavior where right stick macros only come out for 1 frame on the PS4 version, making right stick instant tumbling run followup+assist impossible (I DMed Mike about this on Twitter a while back and he fixed it in the codebase, but console updates are a pain so it never got pushed out. Hopefully nothing needs to be done here.)
    • Make chaining from Bella jLPx1 to jLPx2 slightly more consistent (edit: I've talked to Liam about this since and it turns out that this is just because jLPx1 has no chain buffer into itself, so it can drop even though you're pressing LP fairly rapidly. I've downgraded this from bugfix to QoL.)
    • Remove 1f Bella j2MP before people realise how crazy good it is
    • Make Pummel Horse's animation even faster (it's already been sped up and I still reckon it's too slow, especially for a special that goes in like, every Bella combo)
    • Make all 8 slots of an 8-player lobby visible at once without needing to scroll
    • Change tutorial and trial combos to ones that are closer to community-approved combo routes (i'm happy to help with this)
    No Funny Name from OCE is waiting on account approval, but here's his two cents:
    • Fix a bug where a persistent 20-second "waiting for opponent" screen appears before every rematch if all spectators leave during a match
    Also I want to use this post to add my support for this suggestion:

     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
  4. Kuro Val Enix

    Kuro Val Enix MP Trumpeter

    Eliza
    Squigly
    Big Band
    I'd like a fix on eliza's st MK>st HPx2 combo that sometimes sideswitch in the corner, if that can be considered as a weird interaction of some sort.
    For Headless Fortune Feral Edge that hits the head instead of the dummy and resets the combo... would be a nice change honestly.
    Maybe thinking about some upgrade to some taunts effects?
    Any buff to the weaker character or some down tuning to the strongest ones would be appreciated.
     
  5. Sinclair

    Sinclair smug

    Location:
    Europe
    Eliza
    Double
    Eliza. My Main.

    (Fair warning my english is BAD and im sleepy x)

    Eliza has god awful approach, and awful blockstrings. I know i've always been the one who yelled "do not play eliza like a fat filia" and i've been helping some people play her more in a "safe" way which works really nicely (but is still flawed). There is not much that I want to change, i think she's very flawed in a game like SG. Bad DP's, shit approach unless you go full RPS boat cancels (which is not even an option if you play her solo, or want to opt for an assist that doesnt go forward and locks down).

    She has really fun, big buttons. I like locking people into the corner from a small distance and pressing any of my buttons (horus, shk cancels, butchers) when im jailing them in that specific place. I would really like it if eliza was somewhat optimized in a way where she'd become more of a bait-and-switch character instead of...a vague mix between rushdown and bait and switch. In both ways, she has a lot of faults. You can choose to rush in and get hit (because her hurtboxes appear so quick before she can even hit you) or play ultra defensive and based on response, which i've taught some eliza players to play in the SG main discord within the channel. The problem is that even then she is very flawed, as her approach is very bad unless you decide to play w/ H beam, lock them down into one place and then move towards them either through dash or boat. Your opponent can just choose to not play the game, go full screen and press nothing, wait for you to get in and then punish you for just getting to them.

    To keep things easy here is a list of stuff I like:
    • Cartouche being an air to air option to end neutral, its also very rewarding if you hit right.
    • Her approach sucks ass but if she's in your face you get to open them up easy w like jlk adc jmp
    • I like how she plays vs Peacock, i dont have any trouble with it. Boat is good, throne is good. (Experience playing vs peck, ratbaby, sanji and bbpro69, i dont want people to think i say this because im playing intermediate or lower players q_q)
    • Its could that you can get free jumps with H khat from any projectile, its cool you can h khat into block vs ssj or other armored things into a punish.
    • I dont care that you can grab or punish out of khat, its a commitment DP and I like how she plays w/ a lot of commitment
    • Horus is fine
    • Her tag is fine
    • Conditioning people w/ boat into cancels is a lot of fun esp vs beo/band/bella/val
    • j.LP is a lifesaver for her.
    • I like how J.lk Sekh beats throws
    • Roundstart eliza is really fun, she has a lot of option, its like playing RPS. I love doing tk cartouche on rs lol
    • Smp is fine and shouldnt be changed.
    • I dont care about jhp having big hurtbox its a good button to open people up and if you press it raw in neutral and get hit dats ur own fault

    These are like the "main" things i find fun about eliza i could go on but it would make it too long.

    Here is a wish list of QoLs and just stuff i want so she's more fun to play as a bait and switch/midrange character

    • I hate that people throw out sekhmet as a last resort. I would like it if sekhmet got reworked where he drains health instead of meter. If you whiff your sekh attacks you lose a nice chunk of health, if you do just normal attacks it drains it slowly, but you gain it back if you counter someone w/ like axe or butchers. I think this would just motivate people into using her more as a bait and switch and playing more of a midrange "you better not press a button against me or else i will commit to you" style.
    • Allow people to sweep sekhmet LMAO i just dont want people to throw out sekh thinking haha easy win :) Punish people more for throwing out sekh, but reward them for guessing right.
    • LoS needs startup armor on taunt. AND A WALL SPLAT. Or at least, allow me to make the choice to waste meter to continue a sekh combo into kill or just dhc into anything else after the last hit because god u lose so much damage if u skip the last hit and for waht....this stuff really sucks because this super does not help her one bit. You cant confirm off it. DHCing off it is hard w/ some characters and again it doesnt help her at all. it just puts her in a shitty position where she needs to approach you again and she sucks at that.
    • This means make her taunt useful!!!
    • BETTER BLOCKSTRINGS!! her blockstrings are so poopy MAN and now i will get into my other point which is
    • She is so bad when she has the wrong assist. There are two ways to play eliza: Either you get a train or anything that allows you to do lowered airdash mixups (and byebye to your defense and approach) or you get a lockdown forward going assist and go full bait-n-switch "please let me breathe and stay away from me so i can press big buttons at you and shit on you for making a mistake" I think she's somewhat better than solo beo but she's still such a mistake when she doesnt have the right assist. Idk how to fix this though lolz
    • Give m spiral a reason to exist.
    • Make boat movement n cancels more viable.
    • Startup butchers should have armor :-(
    Honestly i just want her to be more fun and i want her to be fixed in a way where playing midrange is more fun, more rewarding and way safer.

    Im really tired and i need to sleep maybe i'll finish this tomorrow sorry for mistakes!!! 1love you all :)
     
    Nuuance likes this.
  6. Lex

    Lex Skill pending

    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    Steam:
    Lex
    PSN:
    Ilexyellowdog
    Valentine
    Filia
    Double
    I made a list of QoL suggestions for Fortune, Val and Double (well, couldn't really think of anything for Double tbh lol) a while back so I'll repost them here: https://pastebin.com/wqXDeXzE
    Best of luck to the new team, I'm sure you'll do a great job :D Hopefully we don't cause you too much stress

    EDIT: It'd be nice if either headless sMP or crMK could get a buff to their range so that they can more consistently confirm max/far range crLK. Right now you have to go for sMK confirm when headless which is PBGC punishable by the whole cast on block. Not 100% sure but I think headless is the only character (aside from PW, who has her own issues with her max range crLK confirms) who doesn't have a safe on block hitconfirm from max range crLK. Tbh this seems like an unlikely change since her hitboxes already match her sMP/crMK visuals but I'd be very happy if it did happen.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2021
  7. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

    Location:
    California
    Steam:
    Stuff | Stuff | Stuff | Stuff
    Painwheel
    Robo Fortune
    Ms. Fortune
    Make more DHCs work together, some just don't or require you to lose out on damage which makes them less rewarding and it makes other teams much more rewarding.

    My team has some where it just doesn't work.

    But had I gregor in the back or other comparable supers, it will work.

    While I'm at it, in that video H pinion has instances where it just doesn't hit 'cause beam hit at the same time.

    I also have a wishlist for pw.
    What I want to know most of all is what this patch aims to do, I want to know our limitations on what is going to be an allowable change. Are we getting a massive re-haul, or are we just looking for minor changes/bug fixes, is the staff okay with making the game different, what's the game's goal now? What is SG2E+ looking to be? What is the game's identity, what does it want to reward?

    Knowing that I think can help narrow down a lot of discussion and possibly even avoid heated opinions. I ask all this because I'd rather not get into a discussion as to why I think X if it goes against the game's goal.

    Edit: Please don't buff any ratio, please. Please don't.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
  8. ninja-nutria

    ninja-nutria Solopeacock is legit.

    Location:
    Tampico, Mexico.
    Steam:
    ninja-nutria
    PSN:
    ninja-nutria
    Peacock
    Peacock
    Peacock
    peacock super optic blast.
     
    Beefy Heropon likes this.
  9. Age

    Age Well-Known Member

    If possible fix the no replay bug for double ko

    Balance suggestions:
    Make Lenny cause invincible knockdown (like sweep or soundstunless moves) this would maintain her neutral tools, satisfying chunks, but limit it to a reposition reward rather than a huge combo. It would also limit her Meter dump combo.

    Make sbo 2 Meter, it serves most of the purposes that cat heads can while having additional properties like anti air hitboxes, making safeish tags and invuln.

    Tympani currently has hitstop, invuln and knockdown on trade. It should have 2 out of 3 imo.

    Filia; consider reworking the hairball dash cancel on block, it is pretty degenerate.

    Eliza; rework her taunt to be meaningful, please don't make her busted.
     
  10. Sg Hen

    Sg Hen New Member

    Fortune
    • 236P~P~214P requires you to be holding 4 when you input the button press in order for headroll to actually come out.
    • If Fortune does a super in or after stage 3 and DHCs out, then calling 214HP as an assist above 240 undizzy makes the combo burstable even if it's still within your final chain. Edit: This happens to all assist I guess as per Acido's post below
    Squigly
    • 623P can be punished on hit by things like Fortune level 3 or Double level 5 in the corner and midscreen by a bunch of teams with air super>DHC. an increase to hitstun or something would be nice to prevent this.
    • If you cancel into charge and then move at all it advances the combo stage this makes sense to me but it would be a nice quality of life change.
    • Charged mortis>5HP in the corner is a 1f link vs Parasoul
    • SBO vs certain knocked down/low launched (like after tremolo) characters hits quicker making getting charge OTGless much more difficult. (Band, Fortune, Valentine, Beowulf, Robo-Fortune)
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
  11. tso

    tso New Member

    Squigly
    Eliza
    Big Band
    Issue: The evergreen nature of skullgirls as a title makes the trial combos being ignored ("go read wiki") could be an issue for new players.
    Suggestion: use more common combo pieces for trials, and slightly increase number, to allow a learning rampup within a single characters trials. (large bit of work)

    Issue: Lack of master volume option: I might be the only person who constantly fiddles with their volumes, but it's going on my list, damnit. (minor issue; unknown easy or hellish rework)

    -----

    Sekhmet - General lack of use. Many have suggested meter changes.
     
    Twotea likes this.
  12. Acido

    Acido 50/50

    Steam:
    Acidozin
    Filia
    Fukua
    A fix for this bug would be very appreciated. As it seems, if you DHC, keep the combo going, and utilize the same character as an assist during an ongoing string, after the undizzy is full, it will wrongly trigger the protection.

     
  13. softie

    softie I suk

    Painwheel
    Fukua
    when i brought this up to mike a year or so ago he basically told me it wasn't intended but he liked it so it was now intentional game design

    he decided that having to use the special before full undizzy if you dhc'd after first string was good b/c like "making people pay more attention to combo strings is a good thing"


    I wouldn't mind it being changed but i'm 100% used to it by now so idc much
     
  14. softie

    softie I suk

    Painwheel
    Fukua
    shameless double post sue me

    dont kill peacock please just like 1-2 targeted nerfs

    dont kill beo/atrain without giving beo something to help with neutral he's a no future character
    would really blow if beo got an assist nerfed for the rest of the cast, again

    pw lvl 3 could use some qol but shes fine overall

    i'm afraid of change don't flip the game around please
     
    tso and Lex like this.
  15. Turvon

    Turvon Skugger

    Location:
    Florida
    Steam:
    Turvon
    PSN:
    Turvon09
    Double
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    delete peacock
     
  16. Turvon

    Turvon Skugger

    Location:
    Florida
    Steam:
    Turvon
    PSN:
    Turvon09
    Double
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    i just want peacock to not be able to two touch with the safest left right in the game
     
    Kima likes this.
  17. Bigtonney

    Bigtonney The answer lies, in the Skullheart of battle.

    Location:
    Venice,Italy
    Steam:
    Bigtonney
    PSN:
    Bigtonney
    Squigly
    I made a list with some of the things I suggest for squigly
     
  18. clawmaster

    clawmaster Active Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    Steam:
    Clawmaster
    Squigly
    Big Band
    So is the forums just going to our secret outlet to talk to each other and avoid maincord?
     
  19. Liam

    Liam . . . Hidden Variable

    Unknown
    Unknown
    Unknown
    Hello all, I am present.
    Thanks for your thoughts so far. :)

    Except stuff like this, which is not helpful at all, and should be kept on Twitter:
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
    Fumako, FuLLBLeeD, SeaJay and 5 others like this.
  20. PME

    PME R.I.P. Airdash Cancels

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Steam:
    PME
    PSN:
    PME_SG
    Ms. Fortune
    Robo Fortune
    Robo Magnet super should have hitstop. If not, then I don't think Beowulf's Airwulf should have it
     
  21. iDante_SG

    iDante_SG Exceptionally Average

    Steam:
    iDante_SG
    PSN:
    iDanteSG
    Beowulf
    Been a loooong time since I logged in here...

    Besides that; my suggestion(s) for Beo would be to remove the Mic Drop hype limit per combo. I don't see the reason for this version of Beo to have it, considering he's more focused on hype and hype building now, compared to his old version. I think removing it would be beneficial for him to have him build hype more accessibly by himself. That's my serious change for him.
    And after doing headbutts against Eliza and Beo, can we make converting with c.MP easier, please? It's a one frame link on those two, and everyone else, who aren't BB or Double, is way easier to do against.

    The "HELLA CAP" changes I have are;

    -Bringing back EX Blitzer
    -Chair recall special
    -More usage to chair dance and/or EX. Say...making EX Chair Dance in the corner into TWM into a thing
    -Make Mic Drop 1/3 hype

    That's about what I have, right now. I'll...PROBABLY come up with more. Probably.
     
  22. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost High fashion and fighting games. <3

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/COOKpls/
    XBL:
    IAMVIEWTIFUL001
    Valentine
    Beowulf
    Eliza
    Peacock's lenny super should have a slight meter gain nerf, I don't think this change would hurt the characters gameplan overall. Beowulf's hype mechanic should be looked into for the undizzy skipping. While it is unique to his gameplan I feel as though the community overall has grown tired of assist enabled setplay thru hype. Fukua's H Drill should have its armor breaking properties back as well as a small damage buff to jHK to help her with damage routes. Eliza needs a faster 2LP as well as a QoL buff to Lv3 making it easier to combo more than 1 character.
     
  23. tossle

    tossle

    Steam:
    tossle
    PSN:
    tossle_sg
    Valentine
    Robo Fortune
    Big Band
    There's not much I want changed for Peacock, just a few things like lowering her damage output, metergain penalty while lenny is out, and to make a combo starter like item drop to scale harder. She's pretty much fine otherwise imo.

    As far what as I would like, I would love to consider some better options from Val for things like her DHCs/rawtag. I understand she's a point character to a fault, but having either of these two (both would be maybe too much?) would be nice.

    -Countersuper dhc. It would likely be a shortened version of her freeze version, counter*venom* would probably be too wild w/o changing it specifically for the dhc version. (Would be cool if i could hold the DHC to get it for more meter+having a vial loaded though [: )

    -Rawtag made so that it when it hits it forces a wallbounce. It's slow and doesn't typically connect with most setups which is fine, but it sucks that when you do route for it specifically and it just throws them fullscreen. Some specific spacings can have it wallbounce, but I think it wouldn't be too wild to have it more widely consistent.

    Oh, and if I could change some things with Vals' buttons
    -cMP made a touch faster? Maybe making it like 12f would make it feel better to AA with. Compared to many other anti airs, both mediums and heavies, it's slower while remaining comparatively disjointed, though also hurting scaling due to its multihitting nature.

    -sHK(1) could use some more hitstun? It feels terrible to anti air someone only for them to not connect to the following sHK hits or even bypass because they'll recover in the air before going down far enough.

    Can't think of anything else in particular right now for my characters, but there might be more for Val I'll note on later. I don't think Band needs any changes and I'm not a good enough Robo to speak with confidence about her at the moment
     
    SeaJay, Lex and Space Ghost like this.
  24. PME

    PME R.I.P. Airdash Cancels

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Steam:
    PME
    PSN:
    PME_SG
    Ms. Fortune
    Robo Fortune
    Robo tag should launch them a bit higher. Not necessarily to combo off of it meterlessly midscreen, but enough to at least gain 1 head and be at advantage (Maybe not change the recovery at all but let her cancel into cHK on hit?). Her tag is already among the slowest and gives minimal reward on hit (see also Val tag) while other slow tags gain more for hitting (see Squigly)

    Other than that, it seems weird trying to justify spending 3 bars on Robo for her install. Her endgoal in every case is to be close to the opponent when the timer runs out. To that end, I wanna suggest lowering the chip on beams when installed but increase the blockstun to help keep opponents in place. Maybe give headram better tracking during it or to reduce the recovery on missiles instead.

    Back when it was first suggested years ago, giving stagger on M Danger to give it more use wasn't needed. However, with the way the meta has developed since then, it's something that she'd appreciate. In exchange, making it even more minus on block to give characters jump-in Heavy button starters to compensate
     
    tossle likes this.
  25. Cattfish

    Cattfish Active Member

    Location:
    Charlotte, VT
    Steam:
    IBelieveIn720
    Robo Fortune
    Double
    Some immediate thoughts while I have time.

    (Thank you for teasing that the dash input is less strict)
    I second the adjusting Master Volume issue if it's not too much trouble. The game is LOUD even when you turn it all of the way down.
    I know there's aversion to letting Player 2 change the stage (online) but I want to put it here for posterity.

    Beowulf (open)

    Nothing specific but I think he should be tweaked. I agree with Dante about Mic Drop's hype limit. I would not be opposed to giving him some sort of chair recall if it meant that he had to sacrifice his current hype output. Utility is a fair trade-off.

    Big Band (open)

    Reduce damage on Level 3.
    Reason: holy shit this does so much damage. I think Cloud suggested level 5 damage decrease but I'm less concerned about it.

    Remove cancel window from Beat Extend recovery
    Reason: Should not get to frame trap his failed DP.

    Cerebella (open)

    Fix hitboxes (5LK, j.MP, etc)
    Reason: Self-explanatory.

    Fix her falling point (the way she falls to the ground thanks to where the dot is at her horns, idk how to properly explain it)
    Reason: Self-explanatory.

    Level 3 uses meter regardless if it comes out
    Reason: Self-explanatory.

    Double (open)

    Reduce Catheads duration on DHC + possible damage decrease.
    Reason: The damage is absurd. As a Double player I would obviously not like for it to be a 2 bar dhc, but I do understand it getting whacked down a peg.

    Snap on a dead body results in Bella's battlebutt points
    Reason: Obviously just a cosmetic change, perhaps more trouble than it's worth. It would just be fun to waste the meter just to see points. Pretty please?

    Eliza (open)


    Lightly fix some hurtboxes.
    Reason: I'm not advocating for hurtboxes to shrink before the hitboxes come out, because I understand/remember why most of them are there. But at the very least, 2LK needs to get adjusted, please. Why is the hurtbox on the sphinx head. What is going on.

    Lady of Slaughter qol changes & buffs: now has wall-splat or the final hit is now lower to the ground (preferred), sekh can always perform LoS, startup amor on LoS after taunt, Sekh doesn't drain meter getting slurped back into the body post-super.
    Reason: Creates better DHCs. Sacrificing the real damage of your super to DHC is a TERRIBLE trade-off. Also your super shouldn't be 1.15 bars because sekh doesn't automatically return. I do not understand why Sekh just can't LoS herself; and this adjusts taunt for real utility.

    Nehkbet buffs?
    Reason: Nehkbet feels EXTREMELY underwhelming. Poor hitbox, not inv, hkd really isn't much for Eliza when she has 5HK(2) for skd. Sinclair suggested making it a reverse airwulf, ie the same but she swoops down. This is would be a tremendous buff if she could escape the corner with this. Might be too good if paired with other listed items? Who knows!

    Seconding possible rework of Sehkmet with Sinclair's concepts
    Reason: Sehk is meh. Give her more reward for the meter/health you spend.

    Throw invincible M Spiral
    Reason: Gives some functionality to Spiral + risky, yet good throw inv move would be helpful for Eliza. It may not outweigh the choice of upforward j.HP even still.

    Fukua (open)


    Increase taunt's speed
    Reason: Not a gamechanging buff, but this removes her taunt combo from being Lights-specific. I don't believe her gaining easier access to 20% shadow health restoration is too powerful.

    please be careful with this character she is very strong

    Ms Fortune (open)


    Headless damage nerf in some way?
    Reason: Lowkey this character's headless corner damage is OD. Headless is very strong as is.
    Ms Fortune (open)

    please be careful with this character she is very strong

    Painwheel (open)
    Painwheel (open)


    Improve L buer hitbox
    Reason: She doesn't deserve L Buer's hitbox to be sucky.

    (Agreeing w/ Cloud's PW suggestions which are)
    Normalize her point
    Slight metergain buff on normals/specials but not buer
    Tweak j.lk j.lp hitboxes/few more frames of hitstun (blockstun unchanged)
    2MP drags down on hit
    2MK will reach after max range 2LK
    Shorten max install timer at low health slightly, lengthen install timer at high health slightly

    Peacock (open)

    Reduce metergain with Lenny out
    Reason: Her endless meter cycle is insanely strong.

    Revert M & H Bomb startup (back to 18 and 21 frames)
    Reason: Frame trap stuff

    Minor recovery increase on M Bang w/ no pushback OR vacuum on block.
    Reason: Makes it easier to punish.

    Scale Item Drop combos harder
    Reason: It's the best, safest mix. It's silly that she gets to two touch.

    Additional Teleport recovery after bomb cancel
    Reason: Teleport after bomb is extremely strong when paired with assists. A little recovery will not hurt tremendously.

    Robo Fortune (open)


    Robo can cancel into 2HK after throw
    Reason: Gives her resource if she doesn't want to spend the meter to convert. Encourages players to build heads.

    Reduce recovery on 5HK marginally
    Reason: Makes it easier to do salvo > cannon on hit.

    M Danger now grants 1 head on CH or M Danger crumples on CH.
    Reason: Reward her for making the hard read. Crumple should let her choose between building a head + combo, or building a head and taking the hkd. In the same vein of Robo's original intention for 2MK knockdown 2HK resource build like Robo Ky. Not on normal hit. Normal hit remains the same.

    Magnet gains hitstop.
    Reason: Seems silly that it can be countered.

    Det mode changes.
    Only inflicts 2k recoverable health on AC, but not on point.
    Reason: She doesn't deserve to lose health, but because AC explosion is strong, the health is a fair trade-off.
    Any time magnet connects, OTG is restored.
    Reason: Dying due to lack of OTG is silly. Pointless setback.
    Immediate cancels into head actions. (ie. 214LK 214LK in succession sends 2 RAMs one after the other, think how Peacock sends 2 georges)
    Reason: An effort to make Det Mode more volatile. Instead of this, RAM could maybe have more blockstun like how 2 napalm tears collide? However you go about it, Det mode could use some love.

    Cap suggestion: Mine doesn't disappear after you get hit. L George stays out, why can't people play around Mine?

    Squigly (open)


    Slight metergain buff on normals and specials
    Reason: Not drastic, but helpful buff.

    SBO damage buff
    Reason: Truly pitiful damage at times. It's utility is very good, so I understand forgoing this.

    Keeping charge when hit out of startup
    Reason: It can feel very inconsistent to know if you still have charge when hit while holding stance. This would alleviate that.

    Seria Silver Chord is now super cancellable on block
    Reason: Mentioned in the Tonney video; useful vs taking a risk against zoners. Normal Chord is not affected and you die.

    Level 3 can no longer be snapped away.
    Reason: Formerly thought to be a good idea, the concept of snapping away orb can make Level 3 underwhelming. Perhaps not letting it chip kill would be one way of avoiding imminent death.

    Some people like niche changes like charged seria assists or Daisy Pusher DHC window. Up to them.

    Valentine (open)

    Level 2/3 (lag) vial no longer stays when Valentine is hit by the opponent's burst.
    Reason: If you make the correct defensive play, you shouldn't still be penalized. Minor change.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2021
  26. ibubi

    ibubi New Member

    Steam:
    https://steamcommunity.com/id/yamagishi
    Peacock
    Big Band
    Unknown
    Not sure if this is a bug or a feature, but SBO and puddle locking out assists here isn't very intuitive.

     
  27. Lex

    Lex Skill pending

    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    Steam:
    Lex
    PSN:
    Ilexyellowdog
    Valentine
    Filia
    Double
    It's not a bug. If a non-point character hits the opponent then that locks out the assist. And since SBO and monster are hitting while Squigly/Double aren't on point, that therefore counts and locks out the assist. Another common example is Para's Sniper DHC.
     
  28. acfan

    acfan ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Location:
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Steam:
    acfan
    PSN:
    acfan17
    Painwheel
    Double
    Big Band
    My small wishlist for the Annie patch based on my scope of the game

    The Whole List (open)
    More consistent same-frame button inputs- I want to have more consistent unflies (I think this might be in the same vein as the button dashing fix?)

    Better Painwheel & Squigly meter build
    QOL Painwheel fixes, but I'd like to keep 236k as buer to retain 6+ years of muscle memory

    Peacock building no meter with Lenny out, or build as little as PW does during her install
    Slight Peacock damage nerfs on bombs and item drop

    Tone down Big Band level 5 damage, or bring up Double level 5 damage
    Tone down Big Band level 1 taunt damage

    Eliza buffs and QOL changes listed in this thread

    Fortune meter build needs to be looked at or her damage toned down a bit, one of the two

    Make catheads 2 meter DHC but keep it 2 meter to use on point, or shorten the DHC duration

    Change Beo if A-Train gets changed to keep Beo a relevant character in SG


    That's about it for now! I'll probably have new things to post as the days go by.
     
  29. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    CaioLugon
    Ms. Fortune
    Cerebella
    Parasoul
    The only thing I really wanna see is peacock being toned down a bit, but that being said:

    other stuff (open)
    squigly-
    keeping charge when hit out of startup is ok
    this character is very strong

    bigband-
    he's fine

    eliza-
    better hurtboxes on normals
    full invul on her lv1s
    make all 3 versions of spiral normal jump cancellable on hit and M spiral throw invul (maybe nerf spiral damage in this case)

    fortune-
    make headless combos actually work on double (zoom and grounded el gato routes in particular)
    make head attacks not able to hit another fortune's head
    make fiber jump cancellable if it hits an assist on the second or third hits (make her only look at the point character to check for jump cancel)
    headless damage is fine as is, but i'd be ok with decap attack not dealing damage i think
    slight meterbuild nerf is fine (mostly on rekkas)

    peacock-
    make lenny a lv2
    nerf lv2 item drop (remove vaccuum on block, make it scale follow-ups, make it knockdown on aerial hits, etc, just pls do something)
    increase M bang recovery slightly
    reduce overall damage

    painwheel-
    cmp dragging down is good
    death crawl hitbox increase is ok
    metergain increase
    this character is also very strong

    filia-
    nerf airball dash cancels on block somehow, or just revert it

    bella-
    make jhp not hit overhead, it has way too much utility to justify it being an extremely fast ioh, especially since j2mp exists (revert the forced scaling in this case)
    lv3 taking meter regardless is ok

    val-
    countervenom dhc is cool
    making cmp a more viable anti air is ok

    parasoul-
    she's fine

    double-
    mostly fine, but if anything nerf catheads somehow

    fukua-
    nerf jhk somehow (remove rebeat on block, remove/reduce air dart momentum, force landing recovery, idk)
    increase overall damage output slightly

    beo-
    removing mic drop limit is ok
    make H chair -1 or -2

    robo-
    make mines stay if she gets hit
    M danger crumple/stagger and throw invul is ok
    increase overall damage output slightly
     
  30. Calexe

    Calexe

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    Calexe
    Double
    Squigly
    Eliza
    Bad English warning.

    Show Spoiler
    Eliza:
    Little changes on some hurtboxes (jLP, cLK, jHK)
    sHP > M Khat viable against Fortune/Squigly/Robo
    M Spiral last hit jump cancellable or TK Khat/TK Dive cancellable
    Throne hitbox a little higher and reduce some recovery
    Sekhmets don't eat meter while she walking back to Eliza
    LOS last hit less higher (and I guess wallslam?)
    Nekhbet damage increase(?)
    Taunt gives Eliza lifesteal on Sekmeth or full invul/armor/hit invul on her next super

    Squigly:
    Meter build increase on normals/specials
    Air throw easy to convert
    Inferno of Leviathan damage increase/scaling decrease(?)

    Big Band:
    jLK less air-to-air and more air-to-ground
    Tympany Drive less in favor of Band in trades

    Fortune:
    Meter build decrease on her normals/specials
    Damage overall decrease with head-off
    Feral Edge (j214KK) unable to cross

    Peacock:
    Meter build decrease by a LOT with Lenny in the screen
    M Bang less pushback on block
    Bombs have less hitstun/blockstun if Peacock is in blockstun/hitstun OR Bombs scale harder
    Item Drop do not push you back if you block in the air, only drag you to the ground
    Item Drop scale harder

    Painwheel:
    Meter build increase on normals/specials
    cMP drags you to the ground on-hit
    L Buer hitbox increase

    Cerebella:
    Less bullshit hitboxes (jLP, jMP, j2MP, sLK)
    cHK negative on block, if she's too close (not sure about this one)
    Lvl3 costs the meter on the input, instead the animation

    Parasoul:
    L Shot works on both point and assist if she got a happy birthday :)

    Double:
    Catheads DHC with half of the time, and damage decrease(?)
    Lvl5 explosion damage increase(?)

    Fukua:
    jHK nerf somehow
    Self damage with clones delay to 50% red HP and 50% yellow HP (instead all yellow HP)

    Robo-Fortune:
    Little damage increase on her normals(?)
    Keep Mine in the screen if she gets hit
    M danger able to use between strings, but only once (like Eliza's L Spiral)
    L Headrone cancellable into Beams, M/H Headrone or Dangers, once (not sure about this one too)
    Magnetic Trap with hitstop, thank you
    Reduce Detonation self damage to 1k instead 2k, except on AC, 2k on AC
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2021
  31. Kima

    Kima New Member

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    kimagreywind
    Robo Fortune
    Painwheel
    Cerebella
    Changes i would like to see:

    Cerebella (open)

    - jHP and j2MP should hit mid
    Cerebella is suppose to be a grappler, but her high/low is strong enough that she doesn't need to use command throws for mixups, removing the fast overhead options she has would force her into a more low/throw oriented gameplan, which makes way more sense for her archetype.

    Peacock (open)
    - Reduce her meter gain while Lenny is on the screen
    Burning resources to gain advantage during neutral is fine, but she shouldn't be able to build another bar while using it.

    - Tone down her item drop mixup
    This is the strongest mixup in the game, and she shouldn't have SO MUCH reward from it. It's a true 50/50 with a very strong starter (combine that with her insanely strong damage potential), and it's impossible to even mash out of it cause she can just block aerial supers, you are in a bad spot even if you block it correctly cause she still has the advantage, and if you pushblock her you are STILL in a bad spot cause getting away is exactly what a zoner wants, it's just a lose/lose situation no matter what.

    - M Bang should be more punishable
    This one is pretty straight forward, while the move itself is already minus, it's hard or sometimes impossible to punish due to it's range, her defense is suppose to be bad since she already controls the neutral and have insane damage, capitalizing on her poor defensive tools would make it more fair.

    Painwheel (open)

    - Slightly increase the range on jLK or jLP for burst baits.
    Right now her air throw / burst bait game is kinda weak and unreliable, her aerial lights whiffs very easily when jumping back, she could see some improvement there.

    - Pinion Dash M/H (not L) should have armor, even if just 1 hit.
    Since the HI rework, people shifted her role into some sort of damage engine DHC/Tag character, which is really cool, but her current assists are very niche and only helps a small amount of characters, giving it armor would make it a good counter call / scramble assist

    - Make sHK hitbox match the animation (This one is very unlikely, but doesn't hurt to try)
    By doing that, the sMP sHK (2) chain would become universal, it gives you a very nice vortex both midscreen and in the corner, but currently only works on Parasoul due to her feet hurtboxes while in hitstun, having access to this on other lights and mediums character would help her immensely.

    Robo Fortune (open)

    - SLIGHTLY increase her normals damage
    Robo deals very high damage when she spends the meter, but without meter it's low, this really hurts her reset game, sometimes the risk/reward from reseting someone with robo is so bad that it's better to just send them fullscreen with sHK to avoid putting yourself in a bad spot.

    - Convert off a throw using heads
    Using Magnetic Trap to continue her combo feels dissatisfying, you are burning one meter that won't even do damage just to pick them off with a already scaled combo. She should be able to spend her heads to combo of a throw, you are still burning a resource for that, but not meter. Also, reducing her recovery time a little would also be useful, allowing her to convert from her throw using assists more easily.

    - Mine shouldn't disappear when you take damage
    Peacock still keeps her Georges when she gets hit, so why robo can't do the same with her mine? You are even burning a resource for that.
     
  32. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

    Location:
    California
    Steam:
    Stuff | Stuff | Stuff | Stuff
    Painwheel
    Robo Fortune
    Ms. Fortune
    So I just want to make a case for Fortune's meter gain:

    • She builds some sure but it's at the expense of damage which I think is fair. (rekka combo is what builds more but it's rarely or never used, she still builds more than the average character but I think if anything everyone should build more maybe)
    • Part of why she's an excellent character is because this is the way she supports her team, her assists aren't very stellar [they are very particular and not everyone can use them] and she's built more for setting up the rest of her team.
    • Fortune builds her opponent a lot more meter than she makes (honestly this is what makes me just not care that much about meter gain changes because if you build less when I hit you, I'm cool with that, I'm not a fan of the meter gain for the losing opponent anyway.)
    • I wouldn't really fight the changes since I guess it's up to the people or the dev idk but I think her meter gain is super exaggerated and you'll stunt her utility in that way.
    • I don't really like the idea of making the battery less of a battery, that's all. (I feel similarly about Peacock, I think she can work as a battery too but I think with Peacock it's possible to nerf elsewhere and preserve some strats here and there maybe give her opponent more meter as well, currently you get at minimum .18 of what she makes when you block a projectile and if it was more like how robo projectiles work (at minimum she gives her opponent .30 of what she builds at minimum from beams) I think it'd be a less polarizing match up since you actually get something out of blocking her and gives you a better chance to outright kill her.)

    IMO I think headless damage should stay the same because it functions like a glass cannon and can (sometimes) be hard to use.
    Regardless she's a great point character and also a great anchor.
    What I think should be done is that head-on should do less damage because she's easier and more instantly rewarding and has defensive options meterlessly without the need of esoteric positioning. Headless can stay the same because she gets good damage at the cost of needing to block a bit better.

    I think doing that will help differentiate the two forms, currently I feel like there aren't distinct advantages to using either form (personally speaking I don't find headless damage or mix ups very distinct when I can just have a more solid defense at the cost of still fairly good damage), you can settle to use either one the whole way through but idk if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I just wanted to toss out my idea 'cause I feel like this would force proficiency of both forms instead of one.

    Like I said, I don't intend to fight any changes but I just want to at least have what I think out there, I think she's fine as is.

    Also, for some reason Robo L beam is the only single hit beam that builds a different amount of meter? I'm not sure I understand why it's like that.
    Speaking of Robo, please if there's any way to make Robo idj stuff easier, I'd really appreciate it, my execution is poop.

    Also also, I kind of like that pw doesn't build that much meter I think what bugs me more is when pw builds a lot less meter than my opponent who I am hitting, it's not a very good feeling.

    EDIT: I still would prefer to wait to know what this team is wanting to do with the game at present because I'd rather not suggest something that's not going to line up with the goals of the team.

    Also if this could be looked into I'd super appreciate it because it'd be nice to be able to use certain assists with certain input combos, I'd really like to see a layout change looked at because I think it'd help teams more.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2021
  33. PME

    PME R.I.P. Airdash Cancels

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Steam:
    PME
    PSN:
    PME_SG
    Ms. Fortune
    Robo Fortune
    I agree with these, but also:
    Cerebella (open)

    Put her point higher when falling so she doesn't hit the floor sooner than the rest of the cast yes, but also what was suggested about making jHP not an overhead. If so, revert the scaling nerf.
    Instant j2MP doesn't need to be plus on block either. I agree with focusing on her grappler archtype and not giving her more tools than she needs

    Peacock (open)

    Item Drop should never vaccuum. On hit, it should always knock the character away instead of dragging them down (enough distance so that if they try to combo from it midscreen after a left/right scenario, they'd need Argus > DHC to combo off it. Ground bounce on Lv3 Drop retained). On block, it should have more pushback and chip to compensate. May not need to scale Item Drop anymore than it is now if so.

    Let the keepaway character be good at keepaway, don't also give her 2-touch combos.

    Painwheel (open)

    Let painwheel players play around with the idea of having 214P inputs for Buers instead of 236K for like a week. Being crossed up/crossing up the opponent, doing fly input, getting Buer instead and dying for it is not something the player can work around in a lot of scenarios.

    My opinion on her meterbuild is skewed seeing as I play 2 batteries with her, so I won't speak on that

    She does need a taller hitbox on L/M ground Buers though. Just enough to make routes consistent, but not enough to matter outside of that

    Fortune (open)

    Reduce meterbuild on rekkas
    Fortune needs a nerf in either damage, or metergain, but not both.

    Feral Edge change: Fortune cannot go past the character's point post-superflash. As of now, it's still easy enough to cross the opponent up and dying for it since it won't fully hit. It took years of experience with the character to have the on-the-spot decision making to see "This is going to crossup, and I have to DHC immediately after 1-2 hits otherwise, the DHC won't hit either."
    This is not a barrier I want inexperienced Fortune players to have, especially since you're spending an extra bar just to not die


    Would like to know others' thoughts on these as well
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2021
  34. Lex

    Lex Skill pending

    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    Steam:
    Lex
    PSN:
    Ilexyellowdog
    Valentine
    Filia
    Double
    I don't think Fortune's meterbuild should be nerfed for many of the same reasons Stuff listed. It's also one of the unique aspects to Fortune's game and I think characters having a diverse range of strengths and weaknesses makes the game more interesting and makes teambuilding more engaging (Fortune is also doing just about all her meterbuild while she hits you I believe, since she doesn't whiff lots of specials in neutral like other batteries).
    I also don't think head-on's damage is really deserving of a nerf tbh. She already deals below average damage both midscreen and in the corner
    Head-on damage breakdown (open)

    - Midscreen max = 7591
    - L Fiber route = 6925 (her most commonly used route)
    - Corner = 8228
    For comparison, the average midscreen damage across the cast is 7950 and in the corner it's 8426 (numbers based off of at least near universal, 1 bar, no resource start routes on the wiki, you can find the chart on the wiki in game data). Head-on Fortune's damage is pretty close to Fukua's right now, and Fukua is generally seen as a low damage character (as she should be). People seem to think head-on does lots of damage but she really doesn't.


    In regards to headless, I think her corner routes could do with a bit of a damage nerf (they do kinda nutty damage right now lol) but I think she should still do high damage there (and by high damage, I mean change her current 9.6k corner damage routes to maybe 9k-9.2k). Her midscreen damage is fine right now though so any change to her corner damage should be done in a way that has minimal impact on her midscreen damage in my opinion (nerfing ground Gato damage might be one simple way of doing this since it's not used much at all in midscreen routes but is used a lot in the corner, nerfing decap damage is the same).
    Breakdown of headless midscreen damage for those curious: (open)

    - Usually if you get a sandwich combo you'll go into Gato/Rekka loops which deal ~7.3k damage, have ok reset points (not stellar) and are finnicky with their timing across the cast.
    - You can get up to 8.8k midscreen from a sandwich combo but, without the right assists, it's hard to consistently confirm into it due to being pretty dependent on just how far away your head is. + This route is the one that's dependent on which way you are facing since the head flies away in different directions after nom. This route also offers the worst reset points since it uses Nom so you don't have access to your head during your resets.
    - If the head's behind you then you can pretty consistently get 8k with better early reset points than Gato/Rekka loops.

    So right now there's a pretty good balance between reset points + ease of confirm vs damage between gato/rekka loops and the more difficult and finnicky max damage route.


    Semi-related QoL idea for headless: a buffer after rekka would be nice for making corner routes easier. Right now Rekka (hits head), sLP isn't a very common route in the corner (only needed right now vs Double and Band in current optimal corner routes iirc) but if Gato's damage does get nerfed then it'd become a common sequence in her corner routes. e.g. right now you might do sMP, sMK, crHK(1), Gato, sLP... (ender) but if Gato's damage gets nerfed then you'd be doing Rekka in its place and M Rekka, sLP is a 2f link (L Rekka is 3f).

    Unrelated side note: Squigly is really good right now (she's widely underrated imo), please don't give her any crazy buffs. Eliza does needs some love but please don't go overboard with her either, a lot of the discussion of her lately kinda overemphasises her weaknesses imo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2021
    SeaJay likes this.
  35. Cattfish

    Cattfish Active Member

    Location:
    Charlotte, VT
    Steam:
    IBelieveIn720
    Robo Fortune
    Double
    I agree that Fortune's meter gain should be left as is for the reasons discussed above.

    In regards to "bella boxes" I want to clarify that I'm not saying j.MP should have hurtboxes tacked on and we're killing it as a great air to air. My main focus was the region above her + where her weak hand is underneath. Honestly, I don't know how to properly articulate what I want changed with 5LK.

    Not mentioned yet I don't think, but Peacock's oversight about still being able to H teleport behind long startup assists (hi LnL) could finally be addressed.
     
    Lex likes this.
  36. Sunset Radiance

    Sunset Radiance The Ultimate Pun-isher

    Steam:
    Sunset Radiance
    Ms. Fortune
    Robo Fortune
    Eliza
    For the most part, I agree with what Lex and Stuff said. I don't think Fortune needs a meter gain nerf, especially considering, iirc, Bella has a meter positive combo by herself, and nobody has ever mentioned nerfing her meter gain. Fortune's meter gain is nice, but very overestimated, especially when you consider the limited utility she can provide to her team in terms of DHCS and assist synergy compared to the rest of the cast. I don't necessarily agree with nerfing headless damage, when you consider there's considerable risk (not having an invuln. fiber can make a big difference wrt neutral/defense, and taking extra damage when the head is hit, especially in the corner and against certain supers that have more grounded hitboxes), and that it's not obscene as people make it out to be, considering how situational it is. She's in a place where she's a good character, but doesn't need any buffs or nerfs.

    Reducing meter build for Peacock while Lenny is out, as mentioned a few times above, would be a reasonable nerf, I think, as well as items not vacuuming. Her damage also needs to get looked into, but I worry I might be crazy...

    Maybe Eliza's taunt can alter the utility of LoS, like giving startup armor like Sinclair mentioned? I don't play her much anymore, but I think LoS should be reworked a bit so that she can reliably DHC after the last hit (which is a lot of damage) without the player having to DHC early, hindering their damage.

    If Eliza's tag is made so that it CANNOT crossup, maybe the same could be done to Bella, especially considering that Eliza's visually looks like it should crossup? Or maybe it should crossup like Bella's? Not a huge deal, but it's an observation. I'm not sure how to change her frame data wrt the timing in which her large hurtboxes appear/ numberwise to not ridiculously break her, but she could use a buff or two.

    Everyone's said this a million times, but reworking Robo's lvl 3 to either NOT detonate while still retaining zoning buffs, or control detonation (by doing the lvl 3 input again), would be great considering she gets severely punished for trying to take advantage of her zoning buffs. If she is still going to detonate as the super currently works now, I think giving her airdash back would be more fair considering she has to go in before the timer runs out, or risk dying for it.

    It's weird how Pea can have items counterhit, but Robo's beams do not, maybe they can be changed so that they do?

    I'm not sure how Beo can be changed up to not blatantly ignore undizzy and the damage he does while not nuking him too much. :C Maybe further damage scaling specific to him when at higher/max undizzy? It might be overkill, but just putting ideas out there.

    Maybe there can be less pushback on lights? It's unfortunate getting Robo clp confirms/ other light confirms with characters, only to have the opponent pushed back enough to drop the combo.

    I also agree that PW could use QoL buffs. Maybe the weird autocorrect failure that also happens to Robo at times can be looked into? I know it's really bad for PW in particular, since whiffing sHP/buer results in a hefty punish. Improving beur hitboxes would also be nice.

    There's probably more I can think of, but that's what I got atm.
     
    Varianth, FuLLBLeeD and Lex like this.
  37. softie

    softie I suk

    Painwheel
    Fukua
    Fukua post! I think my opinion differs a lot from other fukua players and aligns more with fukua haters so I've been putting a lot of thought into this

    the most justified hate for fukua is centered around jhk on block, and how she interacts with pushblock in these situations

    9jhk point blank is +4, which is just enough that nothing will block string after it. i think this is fine on its own
    9jhk jhp is about the same frame advantage, which i think is maybe a bit too good. She puts you in the same situation but with two significantly different timings if you're trying to reversal. A lot of ADC characters can do similar things, but those characters mostly have to give up safety vs PBGC off pushblocking first blocked button, which fukua does not:
    If you pushblock 9jhk, fukua is once again in the exact same situation: plus but not plus enough for it to be a block string, still in range to low/command grab, still in range to 9jhk you again. If you pushblock 9jhk and fukua does 9jhk jhp, its the exact same situation as every other situation above.
    If fukua does 9jhk jhp, and you pushblock jhp, you actually get her out of your face. Fukua still can get back in and enforce low/throws right away, but the important part is that it requires a conscious decision that fukua makes to do pressure to prep for that situation. Every other situation above does not. This is one of the two main problems with fukua's jhk on block: unless the defender makes the conscious effort to delay PB for the JHP hit, she gets to enforce the same mixup situation with very little effort put into to pilot it. The other part of why its tedious is that if you are waiting to pushblock later and do not pushblock jhk, if fukua does jhk>Lfireball she will cross you up guaranteed. If fireball hits you're in the exact same situation as above, fireball is blocked you have a window to PB her out (that she can still get back in on, but thats fine and healthy decision making!!), if you pushblock jhk and she L fireballs its the same situation as above (if you double pushblock its the "healthy" situation where she has to dash back in or kara cancel into command grab which is fine)


    I dont think changing block stun values will change much or alleviate these problems. making it more plus to make it easier to delay pushblocking the JHK later is one counter-intuitive option that might work, but i dont think it would be a good idea. Making 9jhk minus or 0 on block would work but also just be what the previous fix was (make it so people could mash out, the classic mike-z "player interaction") and kinda lame. I also dont think that making JHK>JHP not working block would fix, because as above per number on PB just jhk by itself stays in very well and forces the situations on pushblock.

    My proposed change would be to reduce (maybe remove) the pull forward of JHK on block, enough that jhk>fireball does not have so much air momentum to cross up, and so that pushblocking jhk would keep fukua outside of a range where she still enforces low/throw without having to many any adjustments. It would still be a fantastic scramble tool and frame trap tool, with this kind of change 9jhk would probably still make contact after the first 9jhk on block but not over and over again, while on hit pulling forward to convert if someone pressed a button or missed double PB and got backdash or the like.

    tldr shoot jhk on block in a way that isn't just making it useless or making it so you *have* to mash or she stays in




    L clone block stun


    L clone blockstun is minuscule. 12 frames of block stun, 8 frames of hitstop, minus frame skip. This is normally a good thing (for the defender) except off resets like this, you have no visual que to pushblock, and its 16ish frame window to pushblock, and unless you're bella who can just upforward, you cannot prevent fukua from just going right into the above jhk layer as she comes down without reversaling



    If you could see the L clone while fukua is jumping over you I would not think this is a problem at all but as is the reset is ultra degen because of how small the pushblock window is and idk if it should be in the game. If you miss the PB window you either get backdash and get hit or get a crouching button and get HCH.






    Okay on to fukua QoL/wishlist. put less thought into these, its not very big and none of it is really needed:


    it would be nice taunt regen of drained HP didn't scale to where you're at in the combo. Very small thing but currently the only way to taunt mid combo solo spends a bar and drains far more HP than it regens by taunting (20% of the drained HP pool, then scaled by another 30-40ish from where you're at in the combo)

    remove the added start up frames on bff if it dodges a throw start up. I really dont know why this is in the game, as is it is just telling fukua players to 9jhk on reversal layers even more which everyone loves.

    If its possible, if it could be made that negative edge clone release wont give you supers if you release the clone at the same time you do Hdrill. It doesn't happen to me anymore, and the situation where it can happen only happens if you're doing something wrong, but it is annoying and i've had people complain to me about it as they picked the character up

    after xxx5hp jmp jhk, 5lp 5lk whiffs on val/fortune without a super frame tight microdash, when its otherwise fully universal. would be nice if this could be addressed in a way that isn't game breaking or anything. jab a few pixels longer idk




    long post

    tl;dr dont have fukua drag forward when you block her jhk, it will fix most peoples complaints without killing L fireball combo/reset routes
     
    Lex and Varianth like this.
  38. Varianth

    Varianth I'm mashing Buer on incoming

    Steam:
    https://steamcommunity.com/id/StarVarianth
    Ms. Fortune
    Painwheel
    Parasoul
    I'm just gonna throw in my 2 cents for my characters (+1), just cause I'd probably regret it later if I didn't show support for ideas I like and those I don't (Even though I suck relatively)

    Fortune: I don't like the idea of a meter nerf since having more meter allows me to play my team more creatively, especially since PW has like, none at all. If she must be nerfed, I'd prefer her damage. Having lots of meter makes this game fun.

    Peacock: For the same reasons, I only want her meter nerfed when lenny's out and if her bombs don't disappear on hit like other characters then tweak the damage they do. I think her zoning is perfectly fair for the most part (except that H L&L is one of the only assists that can cross up with teleport, what the heck), what I don't like is how rewarded she gets for playing dumb since her item drop is so plus. I wouldn't say cut the cooldown though cause that probably hurts her zoning more than her rushdown, perhaps some frame data tweaks? Or the levels take longer to accumulate? I feel like peacock as a rushdown character is wayy more effective than one that wants to zone. I love fighting zoning peacocks. I don't like that peacocks playing like bella is meta, and pretty much only loses to peacocks zoning.

    Painwheel: I think she's mostly fine, aside from some unnecessarily tedious things about her. Please make l.buer *Slightly* bigger. Here's my logic. Confirming with l.buer in the first place is bad since it neuters your damage by 50%, so if you're using it because you got a weird hit (the situation where it usually drops) I think that it should at least not drop. It always feels like it just barely missed. I never feel like I have this issue with other characters and it's just like a "Well, that's what you get for not using the max range confirm even though you were only 5 pixels off from that hitting, get better at your own character stoopid". Finally, here's just something I would like personally, maybe counterhit buers don't scale? Buers are slow and only hit on very hard callouts, you can only convert off of two of them and one of them is corner only. It would be neat if I could explode people for predicting them in neutral. I say "I" since not every painwheel plays with Buers (I love them though)

    Parasoul: She's perfect! Only issue I have is stuff that she gets hit by system wise (PP being mad inconsistent), or A1 not usable with Pillar. Oh, her being minus on hit actually does affect me more than it should since I'm bad. When my opponent gets hit by a setup where I meant for them to block (usually cause I crossed up their mash) I reflexively stop pressing buttons since I realize they mashing and I get pushed for not confirming lol. Not a big deal but it wouldn't happen if I did that playing another character.

    In the end I'm happy with the game mostly save for a few inequality issues where the monkey side of my brain gets mad because If I did the same thing on another character (sometimes, every other character) it would have worked. It's like when the monkey gets a cucumber and the other gets a grape for the same task lol.
     
  39. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

    Location:
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Steam:
    fullbleed
    PSN:
    nFuLLBLeeD
    Ms. Fortune
    Big Band
    Here are my suggested changes. All these changes are made with the following ideas in mind: risk vs reward, and frustrating counterplay. I believe skewed risk vs reward and frustrating counterplay that isn't really at all skill based as it is tedious are Skullgirls two biggest problems, so my changes are to try and alleviate that.

    Peacock:

    While the general consensus is that Peacock should be nerfed, it is also felt that the nerfs shouldn't be too severe. While I agree, I do think she needs more than one or two nerfs to be a fairer character in line with the rest of the cast

    1. Lenny: If nothing else changes, Lenny needs to be a 2 bar super. It controls screen space, allows for safe(ish) dhcs in many situations, adds a massive amount of damage, and forces the opponent to respect you after blocking a reversal. In addition, Peacocks meter gain means the 1 bar doesn't even matter as she'll easily get it back after spending it on Lenny. Lenny should be a 2 bar super, have it's damage reduced, and the meter gain after using it should be greatly reduced. She doesn't need all three of these nerfs, but she definitely needs more than 1.

    2. Teleport: Needs to be adjusted in some capacity, probably more startup frames. Many players are upset with how item drops functions, but the real issue is the completely safe 50/50s Peacock can instantly generate by using teleport. I'm fine with item drop adding damage and being a good zoning tool. I'm not fine with what should be an escape tool leading to the most risk free, plus on block left/right mixups in the game. Looking at this you definitely start to get into "why play anyone else" territory

    3. All versions of MPbang are minimum -10. All versions of bang should not have a hitbox behind them. You should not be hit for making a read on OKI/neutral with a crossup only to get hit behind you, the Peacock cancels into Lenny, and you explode.

    Ms Fortune:

    The way the head currently functions is not fun or intuitive for people playing against her. Fortune is supposed to lose defensive options, midscreen damage, and be at risk of taking extra damage when the head is off, but currently the head ends up saving you more often than not. If this was just one isolated incident like Double car whiffing depending on head placement; sure, whatever. But the pixel difference the head makes in causing something like bikes -> Pillar ON HIT whiff is unacceptable.

    My suggestion is the head no longer takes any hitstop after 3 hits. Any move that hits the head inflicts bonus damage without the head actually dropping the combo. I chose 3 hits because I don't want to remove players ability to launch or lockout the head. I believe Liam did this in a test build of Skullgirls once, and someone with more technical knowledge probably has a better solution. Fortune just shouldn't get the extra jank benefit of "combo breaking" because she took off her head. This is not a SNK game circa 1994 and there is probably a way to fix this and make sure Fortune still takes the additional damage when the head is being hit.

    Meter gain and damage should probably be adjusted in some capacity.

    Big Band:

    Timpani is once again throw invincible. Autopilot mash Timpani Drive fly to the bottom of the screen either being safe or putting the opponent in so little blockstun L Beat Extend is a frame trap is incredibly autopilotly, low risk high rewards and doesn't make for interesting incoming decisions. He should still be able to use this super this way, but if it's going to function like this, it's perfectly fine that the opponent can read it and just air throw it on incoming.

    A Train assist either scales more damage or adds more undizzy

    Painwheel:

    When used in a combo, L Breuer has a hitbox that reaches much further forward to prevent combo drops
    Buff idea: Nails gain a new level of charge, level 4, where they gain slight homing capabilities, giving Painwheel players that like to play keepaway an extra tool. The counterplay would be it takes forever to charge, so you would have to earn the charge in some capacity, with assists or good spacing.

    Beowulf:

    More startup on raw tag. This is the only tag in the entire game where you have to react to the character portrait change rather than the animation itself
    Do something to make his neutral better once A Train assist is normalized, should be able to be viable without being surgically duct taped to another character allowing him to ignore undizzy.

    Eliza:

    Sehkmet is generally considered underpowered and is kind of skewed in that it leads to to: high risk, low to mid reward scenarios. We're never getting blood Eliza, so I'm thinking Sehkmet could use some love. I propose the following changes:

    Taunt boosting with Eliza grants life steal until Sehkmet is hit (so thrown or snap) again.

    Justification: The amount of time Sehkmet gets life steal for is pretty negligible. The ability to get life back would make Sehkmet much more rewarding to use. You shouldn't get this all the time, but I think tauntboosted Sehkmet until Sehkmet gets hit again (or Eliza is snapped out) is fair. This would also apply to being able to do Lady of Slaughter straight out of Sehkmet. This would make "life steal sehkmet" viable and encourage use of good midrange play, baits and conditioning where Eliza excels.

    New move: feint Sehkmet whiffs the sword above her, but stops before it comes down. Like all her other moves, this would be massively unsafe and punishable if you see it coming, but it would give the opponent something else to look out for, and if they're scared of the feint you might have to time to hit them low if they're not paying attention or return to body.

    Lady of Slaughter now wallsplats. Self explanatory, Eliza's DHC potential is kneecapped with the way this works currently

    After lady of Slaughter, a player can enter Eliza's body instantly when the super finishes by holding PP

    Sehkmet recall is slightly faster

    Universal Changes:

    Assists have SLIGHTLY more cooldown before you can call them again (1 or 2 seconds)
    Hitting assists locks them out for longer periods of time (maybe based on damage?)

    Justification: Skullgirls risk/reward on assists is a bit skewed how often you get to call them, and how hard it is to punish them or lock them out. MvC2 had assists you could call very frequently. Punishing assists is difficult, and often doing so (unless you can knock them down or launch them), really doesn't bide you that much more time to deal with them. Players should have to think a bit more strategically about when and where they make their assist calls.

    Alpha counter burst removed: if Skullgirls is going to have weird hitboxes for the rest of its existence, the opponent getting a full combo because a burst bait was a pixel off or some weird IPS exception happened is never going to sit right with me. The biggest issue I feel is that a burst bait is the absolute biggest read you can make it an anime/VS style game: it's the hardest you can mess up, ever, and being able to instantly throw a situation in your favor for essentially guessing wrong is kind of nuts. You can argue it makes your opponent respect a new defensive option, but with how silly a lot of defensive options are in SG in terms of what you have to pay attention to and bait, we really don't need actually correctly making your opponent guess wrong in setplay something else you need to worry about.

    Edit: Sehkmet's feint is caed "Sehkmet's Trick"
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
    PME and Golbat like this.
  40. SeaJay

    SeaJay Armor Enthusiast

    Steam:
    https://steamcommunity.com/id/sea_jay
    Painwheel
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    It isn't currently plus on block. Instant elbow is -2 at best.

    Sorry if what you meant was "don't change it to be plus on block" and I misread you.
     

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