Discussion in 'Valentine' started by GHNeko, Sep 3, 2013.
Personally I only really use the poison vial
which is the only "right" thing to do, in my opinion.
getting that damage in for sure is better than going for an obvious reset and getting hit out of it (why wouldn't you mash out Updo/Dynamo/Napalm Pillar/Fiber upper when youre green/orange vial'd).
having said that, I use green vial.
I found Mortuary Drop to be very useful for breaking an opponents defense and finishing combos.
I don't believe so but that's only because I haven't tested this out...I wanna try this later.
Valentine gets resets for free. Adding 4~9 frames of input lag makes those resets easier. There's a likely and greater incentive to use lag vial if you're good at getting resets without it. If you're unable to reset well and your resets get read/mashed out then yes, Poison Vial and doing a full combo would be your best course of action then.
Mortuary Drop was intentionally designed as a once every match -at most- move. Kind of like Alex's DDT in 3rdStrike. It totally sucked, especially on opponents upbacking. It's still not that great but has a greater chance of success now after the speed buff. I find it best nowadays do throw out mortuary drop as a tech trap. Like when the opponent is landing on the ground or if you do some sort of restand combo gimmick and catch them sleeping.
poison vial is actually really nice with resets because it can add 1k+ to any short combo, getting in 3 separate short vial combos can hurt quite a bit or even kill. Honestly either option is, fine it's a matter of playstyle or preference.
Yeah I can agree with that. It's why I often alternate between Poison and Lag. Oh but if I get a level 2+ poison, I'm gonna cash out with a full combo because I can kill or nearly kill lol
but if valentine already get resets for free and youre good at getting resets, wouldnt that kinda destroy the usefullness of orange vial if you'd get resets without it either way?
i mean it IS good with resets, i know, but i kinda try and see it from a "most optimal" viewpoint to get the most out of her vials and find out when to load what vial vs whom.
I state the answer why in second sentence of that quote of mine.
If you need me to reiterate: While Valentine's ability to reset with crossups, crossunders, throw reset and the like is very easy (at least I believe so), Lag vial makes it so those resets easier to pull off and arguably more assured. Even if your opponent has an idea of what you're going for, 4~9F of lag is still going to affect their read. It also makes it harder to react to other resets. People were talking about mortuary drop just now. Imagine how nice it would be to land that move now that the opponent cannot react as fast if you set it up as a tech trap?
So I've just noticed today that Val's LV2 counter doesn't get rid of Parasoul's orbs. T_T And I'm trying really hard to find a use for this super, other than "LV1/DHC won't reach this height".
since parasoul doesnt get hit during the freeze, yeah the tears dont disappear. you can end "unsafe" blockstrings into it, you can bait it with vial loads, you can use it as a panic button for when youre getting pressured, theres lots of use.
Mwisk, teach me how2countervenom pl0x
I've been using the counter more now, I've gotten a lot of clutch plays with it but honestly another thing I don't like about it is that it feels weird when you hit someone out of it, I'm not sure if it's because you get extra hit stop or what.
It's weird when you counter them when they are in the air, specially against lights. Sometimes, they are launched so high after c.hp that you can't do a combo properly. I've tried doing something like s.lp x3 with delayed inputs to kinda restand them, but it's stage 3 and IPS might come in later, depending on your combo.
Yeah even if you get the counter sometimes you can't even get a proper combo. The move has a lot of bad points but Mike thinks the move is fine...
I would personally either want the move to not punish you as hard if you fuck it up (Refunding 1 meter on whiff or not putting you into CH if you get hit during the recovery)
Or give you a better reward by removing special properties or making them fall to the ground.
when theyre too high up in the air for cHP/sMK --> cHP, you can still hit a jHK and go from there
I think that putting them in a fixed position, no matter where they get countered. Something like what happens with some air grabs, that if it gets you only on your feet and you're higher in the air than the one grabbing, you get grabbed like you were in front of them. The screen is kinda replaced (?) and puts the one grabbing in the center.
idk if this video shows it right...
@inflemon gee, thanks
Is this meant to happen?
Scalpels doesn't CH even if you force CH on the options menu. The only way to get the CH is if you dash and then Scalpels so it's at very very point blank.
Other projectile Supers CH properly like Fukua's fireball, Peacock's Argus and Parasoul's Sniper.
Yeah it does work properly, but since there are plenty projectiles hitting at the same time, the CH particle fades before you notice. You can notice on point blank because usually just one or two hit.
Check the damage with and without counterhit.
Also if the damage didn't vary heavily already I probably would of checked but even at the same distance it can vary around 200-400
Just checked, it does properly get the CH bonus damage and the red flash.
Try fullscreen vs like Double's s.HP so she recoils and only gets hit by one, and do it in slow motion, you can see it.
Seeing as I am struggling to find a reason to keep playing this character I'd like to turn my frustrations into something useful. So I ask you, why do any of you play valentine? What are the concrete facts about this character that you enjoy?
Why I play her: her name is Valentine and I'm born on Valentine's day. Simple.
Also her team synergy feels great with the other characters I play and she's a ninja that does sick izuna drops with body bags, but whatever.
Throw, jump over, combo the other way.
0. More than anything else, I like her matchups.
1. Objectively, her movement is good and gives her a lot of ways to get around/under/above things. Subjectively, it's really fast and fun.
2. She scales well with mechanical skill and judgement as a player. Her resets can be very simple and conservative, or very dramatic and difficult to react to. Her combos are generally more challenging for me than most other characters and require a lot of prior knowledge regarding character/situation specific things.
3. She's an honest character. I have no meterless mashes and I will either live or die by my neutral play, defense, and assist calls. They're all things I'm generally bad at, and things I really want her to expose/improve in my play as I grow as a player.
There's also always something new to find with her too.
.....don't mind the Big Band and Bella stuff.
I picked her initially because she had big boobs and I can't drop her now because I would then have to learn a new character. If I were a neet or had a lot of time on my hands and I had to drop Valentine I would try out Ms Fortune though.
I picked her cause I really enjoyed bang in BBCSII and thought, she's a ninja, he's a ninja, it'll probably work out.
Ok yea I expected this, what I mean is not why you picked her up, but why do you continue to play her. What about the character do you like.
I like her mobility and her utility, she has one of the most useful throws in the game. Her mixups are decent, she has two air supers. I could go on but I don't want to ramble. I feel like while valentine might not be the strongest due to her mediocre damage with all the options in her arsenal she can hold her own against any of the cast. Thats why I play her.
No time to pick up another character, character loyalty and sanfordkellypickatoptier.flv
I continue to play Val because she is my most consistent tournament/set character, because she can avoid Peacock and Fukua zoning, and generally avoid everything unless I specifically want to engage with it. There's no reason to drop her as a character when she's so strong.
I like jumping around.
I like grab resets.
I like cross resets.
I like her lore.
She is Skullgirls fun incarnate, but never feels unbalanced.
I originally picked Parasoul because I have a huge thing for redheads, but when I was through the tutorial and I got Valentine, I actually enjoyed her combat style more than Parasouls, and her blockbusters are my favorites in the game
And the facts about this character that I enjoy? Her lines, her boobs, her attitude, she's a ninja and she's really fast and badass
These are opinions not to be interpreted as balance discussion.
Here are the things I like about valentine:
She has two lows, cr.lk and cr.mk, that work quite well together.
Backdash iad j.mp is a stupidly good pressure tool in the corner, and j.mp is just great for pressure all around because it starts up quickly and eqch hit is so drawn out it messes with th combo tempo.
I like that she has an air fireball even though its generally an awful tool.
I think I like s.hk?
I like her double jump and her j.hk, nice mobility and a big red hitbox.
Bypass xx scalpels has been thoroughly nerfed, but I still like to use it, it gives me full screen control I can't get anywhere else with valentine, just gotta be smart about it.
Things I don't like about valentine:
I HATE her airdash, its so floaty and slow I can't stand it. It shuts down the tempo off the game if you let it rock for more than a few frames and just feels like meh.
Her j.lk is also now on my shit list because it has almost no use, it's a giant sign that says 'reset here' and the resets you use it for feel so slow. At best you're gonna do a double cross under but the move itself is so one dimensional and boring.
Her resets, I dunno if I'm just so used to them that I am no longer entertained by the novelty or what (unlikely though because I still love fortune resets). They are either slow, predictable, boring, or repetitive to me. Any j.hp reset is gonna be slow, and fast fall reset is boring, any j.lk is predictable, and on there own they just annoy the hell out of me.
She feels slow. Fortune feels twice as fast in every aspect.
J.mk, don't need a reason because it looks and feels uncomfortable for me, its the quintessential floaty slow valentine move.
Oh yea and not haveing a reversal kinda sucks, it sucks a lot.
What bothers me most on Val is the lack of usable specials in combos.
I mean, she has awesome normals, but she lacks so much damage that some specials could bring. Look at Fukua. She deals shitloads of damage in a single simple combo midscreen, reaching even above 9k on corner, while Val struggles to reach somewhere near 8k with vial and everything.
She also lacks a stagger (to make her cmd grab somewhat useful) and a good reversal.
j.lk has uses has a move that brings her down to the ground faster than free falling or any other moves. If you're low enough you can also just get a combo off of it if it hits. If you're not low enough you can do a mix up (Throw works most of the time for me)
Filia is a lot faster than Valentine however Filia lacks the mobility and options of Valentine. That make's Filia's air game a lot more easier but only because you don't have many options to begin with.
j.lk resets can be used in conjunction with a cross over j.HP although if you want a fast reset do j.MK j.HP fast fall.
Sometimes you can simply fake a cross like c.hp j.hp j.hk IAD j.lk j.mp
The j.mp will whiff, but will only work about people that can block crosses.
I feel that if you're not getting j.LK to work well for you as a reset tool then you're either not being clever enough with your resets or you're playing an opponent the reset doesn't work on (often because they mash).
You also use an airdash j.LK (as well as j.MP) after someone pushblocks a move like your j.HP or j.HK as the move continues momentum toward your opponent and leaves you next to them. Anti pushblock tactics are hella good when you've cornered your opponent.
I have never had someon mash out of a j.lk reset, but seriously I am well aware of every reset mentioned so far and they are all boring to me as well as being far from val's best reset options.
I remain unconvinced that j.lk has the speed to be a strong reset tool on its own because they can react to the move itself and be alerted to when the reset is going to happen. At best you are at a height where you can make the cross under a 50/50, which will lose to any air super or some falling normals. I honestly don't think people should ever be caught off guard by this move, the only time I've ever seen a decent reset is when duck does his weird launcher into j.lk 50/50 cross up thing, which still gets blown up by vertical reversals. Like, if you use this move as a reset tool more than 2 times in a ft5 I think that's too much, by this game's reset standards its just too slow.
The only time I have used that move in a match in recent memory is with corner pressure, I have written it off in every other situation, opting for tighter and more surprising resets.
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