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Valentine too safe? A.K.A. Nerf Valentie?

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JayDee2504

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So i'll start by saying that i'll probably get a lot of hate since val is one of the most used characters, but thats also what brought me here.
It is like every good player online play as her or have her in his team and the reason is her tools are too strong compared with other characters and i belive something needs to be done.

  • Her ground throw is just plain broken, other characters have to use a well timed OTG or special to continue the combo(sometimes even character specific), but not her, she just makes you crumple for what feels like an hour before she decides to start a combo in ANY way she wants. and yeah it scales the damage to 50% but thats irrelevant because she still gets more potential damage than the other characters and sooner or later she will go for a reset, it being a crossup, a burst bait or god forbid another throw. I think they animated her throw based on the looks and not on balance.
  • s.Mp x2 gives you plenty of time to hitconfim, has good range and can drag the oponent to throw range, on top of that it is unpunishable (+3 on block!). Compare to filias c.Mk, it is fully punishable on block (even on hit wtf lol) and does NOT leave at throw range.
  • s.HP has that step back that dodges nearly anything the oponent throws at you and then lunges forward with crazy range, thats pretty good on its own, but wait it is nearly unpunishable too! (because hurtboxes and -3 on block)
  • j.Mp being a multihit move is active for quite a long time and seems to have too much hitstun, sometimes a single hit of it on an airborne oponent can lead to a restand with jabs.
  • Aerial checkmate incision once again is nearly unpunishable on whiff unless somehow you are already on the air, since she can just dash out of danger or even continue to pressure. like really? if theres something global in fighting games is that aerial proyectiles should leave you exposed when used improperly.
  • Air to air Aerial savage bypass being a move so fast and with high reward if it hits is hard to react and punish on block because A)it pushes the oponent in a way it looks like it crossed over when thats not the case and B)valentine gets to the ground pretty fast, sometimes even faster than the oponent does.

TL;DR valentine is a character with too many low risk/high reward tools, her block strings are completly safe, has crazy mixups and excellent mobility, even a command grab, really? was that necesary? something needs to be done to stop the val army online.
Her only weakness i would say is that she doesnt have a dp, but half the cast doesnt and with tech rolls it doesnt even matter much.
 
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JayDee2504 said:
It is like every good player online play as her or have her in his team
Who are these good players you're facing?

JayDee2504 said:
Her only weakness i would say is that she doesnt have a dp, but with tech rolls it doesnt even matter much.
Are you sure you're in a position to voice balance concerns
 
IsaVulpes said:
Who are these good players you're facing?


Are you sure you're in a position to voice balance concerns

@1. pick anyone near the top of the leaderboards who still play the game. i only play quick match so its not like ill remember their names.
@2. no, that was my best try at mentioning one weakness she might have. i nearly deleted that line but whatever.

@Mike_Z Thanks for the honesty, it makes a lot of sense, she is a nurse after all, but shes also a freaking ninja! :P
 
You didn't even address the big parts for why Valentine is gud.

No one does yolo EKG Flatliners, if you do get the yolo super then good for you but it doesn't give you much for how risky it is.
JayDee2504 said:
@1. pick anyone near the top of the leaderboards who still play the game. i only play quick match so its not like ill remember their names.
Implying people give a fuck about quick match
 
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ashxu said:
You didn't even address the big parts for why Valentine is gud.

No one does yolo EKG Flatliners, if you do get the yolo super then good for you but it doesn't give you much for how risky it is.

Implying people give a fuck about quick match

please elaborate then? i mean im not valentine player, but i try to pay atention to details.

also not EKG flatliner, but savage bypasses which if hits can be canceled into flatliner or scalpels super.
 
JayDee2504 said:
please elaborate then? i mean im not valentine player, but i try to pay atention to details.

also not EKG flatliner, but savage bypasses which if hits can be canceled into flatliner or scalpels super.
It's punishable as FUCK if you do M or H and it gets blocked. L is safe but you're still at a frame disadvantage.

You don't know what you're talking about, shit you don't even play Valentine.
 
I guess I'll bite the bait, here's my 2 cents:

  • ground throw: yes, her ground throw is good in that it allows you to start your combo easier than other characters, but thats it. It doesnt matter whether you get ground thrown by valentine or filia or double, you will get combo'd, additionally, vals damage output is on the lower end of the spectrum, so 50% of that isnt all that much
  • sMP x2, there's three options here: val totally whiffs it, which in turn allows you to attack with a jump since the animation is really long, but only few vals actually use sMP to initiate a combo, second you block it and just pushblock her easily, or third she hits you and you get combod, as with any other move really.
  • yes, sHP is a great move in my opinion, good damage, great range and the step back as you said. but unless you keep dashing and attacking towards val without blocking like a berserker on roids, then no, you wont get hit if you block. and if you happen to fight a val spamming sHP, armor moves, ranged attacks, even a well times super etc. are helpful
  • jMP is a fast multi hit move, but leaves valentine vulnerable for a long time in the air. you can predict where she will land and just step aside and get her with a mixup if shes spamming. also, pushblocking jMP correctly is vital since you'll most definitely get grabbed immediately after she lands if you dont.
  • but aerial scalpels leave her vulnerable. if you block them you can jump and grab, or get a hit confirm in either if youre fast enough, and also the only time youll be seeing val air scalpel is when shes using savage bypass to hit you and then continue the combo. and now its about blocking the bypass/seeing the bypass coming
  • you dont need to block savage bypass on reaction, thats hard for a beginner, just whenever you see her jumping around on the other side of the screen, you know its coming, can block and either punish the blocked bypass or the scalpels if she does them anyway
thats it, also, her command grab is slow and easily jumpable and punishable once you get used to when vals use it (for example after 2 sHK)

also: what characters are you playing? you might get more out of it by telling us what youre playing
 
Muro said:
Buff my mains. Nerf everything else.

ikr, also shes fine, git gud.

Im surprised noone has brought my mother into the conversation yet. that gotta count for something right? :P

@ashxu i notice you first confused the special move with the super, but you also missed the air to air part, but thats ok since im the one who doesnt know what im talking about, that seems to be a right reserved to val players ;)

@infected melon no man, your 2 cents are apreciated, thats the kind of civilized asnwer i hoped to get but highly doubed would happen.
 
what about your characters then? i might help you a bit better if i know your setup
 
Oh, would you like your mother brought into the conversation?

I'm sure she is a lovely woman.
 
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Mkay, if I remember correctly, Val was SUPPOSED to have ridic comboability because otherwise, she wouldn't have the damage output she has now.
 
JayDee2504 said:
ikr, also shes fine, git gud.

Im surprised noone has brought my mother into the conversation yet. that gotta count for something right? :P

@ashxu i notice you first confused the special move with the super, but you also missed the air to air part, but thats ok since im the one who doesnt know what im talking about, that seems to be a right reserved to val players ;)

@infected melon no man, your 2 cents are apreciated, thats the kind of civilized asnwer i hoped to get but highly doubed would happen.
Post your steam ID/who you play etc.

No one's taking you seriously because you're making a rant thread and don't seem to know what you're crying about.
 
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I don't play Valentine often, but when I do I feel like she's pretty well-balanced. I also like that if I'm trying to get a friend into Skullgirls, and they're inexperienced at fighting games, I can tell them to try Valentine since she's easy to pick up.
 
Maybe it's my terrible skills, but Val doesn't seem that beginner friendly. She's got low damage and lacks 'oh shit' moves. Bella and Filia seem a bit more beginner friendly
 
Also, one thing OP neglected to mention:

A good portion of Val's normals are multi-hit. While stylish, they scale the combo to crap unless used tactically. So, she's more technical than you make her out to be.

alexpi said:
Maybe it's my terrible skills, but Val doesn't seem that beginner friendly. She's got low damage and lacks 'oh shit' moves. Bella and Filia seem a bit more beginner friendly
I'd say Filia over Bella. Despite me hating her with the passion of a thousand burning suns.
 
alexpi said:
Maybe it's my terrible skills, but Val doesn't seem that beginner friendly. She's got low damage and lacks 'oh shit' moves. Bella and Filia seem a bit more beginner friendly
I don't think Valentine is beginner friendly and I agree with you. Filia is straightforward and even if you decide to put her on the backburner, you can just make her an Updo dispenser. Cerebella gets big damage easily and has hella good normals and has relatively easy to understand tools, just don't keep doing tumbling run.

Valentine has good normals too but you have to understand why and I feel you need to understand the game more in order to play her properly.
 
Val is overrated in my opinion, your reasons for her being "op" are really dumb lol. Try playing her yourself and you'll see that.


If you think something is OP, play it yourself, and you should have a much easier time winning, right? I used to think Val+Updo was op before I tried it.
 
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JayDee2504 said:
@Mike_Z Thanks for the honesty, it makes a lot of sense, she is a nurse after all, but shes also a freaking ninja! :P
I am quite sure you didn't think I was serious.
....right?

Should I have said "You are incorrect" instead? Probably.
 
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JayDee2504 said:
ikr, also shes fine, git gud.

Im surprised noone has brought my mother into the conversation yet. that gotta count for something right? :P

@ashxu i notice you first confused the special move with the super, but you also missed the air to air part, but thats ok since im the one who doesnt know what im talking about, that seems to be a right reserved to val players ;)
The air version is EVEN MORE UNSAFE, because it is in recovery until she hits the ground. Unless you cancel it into scalpels, but that is using meter and then its basically a start of round like gamble after that.
 
So this entire thing is full of fluff and no patching will be going on soon. Lemme try and break it down.

1.
JayDee2504 said:
it scales the damage to 50% but thats irrelevant because she still gets more potential damage than the other characters and sooner or later she will go for a reset,
implying that no other characters do resets off grab combos. Besides, Val's low damage output gets halved. It takes a lot out of her just to reach 4k off a throw.

2. S.mp scales the combo to shit and is mostly a combo filler. Plus complaints on how a normal is safe on block and operates with a slight vacuum property like Squigly's s.mp(first hit) and Big Band's c.mk. Btw multi hitting moves are all punishable if you push block guard cancel. Example: PGBC Filia's c.mk --> Diamond Drop.

3. More complaints on a normal being safe on block. Though you normally can't combo off of s.hp solo unless you have a green vial or are in the corner and haven't used up your OTG.

4. Complaint that Val can combo off air normals. j.mp doesn't have a wide hitbox like Parasoul's air normals, and can't cross up like Filia's j.mp. It also can be air grabbed. A lot.

5.Argues that air projectiles should be punishable like in every fighting game. If they completely whiffed, well then they wasted an entire meter. Val BLEEDS meter to continue damage off air throws, and for overall damage. Also Akuma, Ibuki, Taskmaster, Storm, Amaterasu (air super also punishable by air grab), Ciel (Melty Blood)....

6. Good players learn to hold back when they see Val jump in the air, or throw out moves that would stuff out the savage bypass.
JayDee2504 said:
savage bypass pushes the oponent in a way it looks like it crossed over when thats not the case
Savage bypass doesn't go through the opponent on block. If you know that it doesn't cross over, then what's the problem punishing it? Val can't do anything until she hits the ground unless she cancels into scalpels. And if they do, scalpel super doesn't have hitstop and there's plenty of time to block and punish with an air grab.


OP don't complain so much. Try to find ways to beat out what you lose to before crying for nerfs. "her block strings are completely safe?" That's the definition of a block string. Mix ups? It's either a grab, crossup, or a low. Try blocking Filia with instant overheads. And don't be complaining about IZUNA DROPS for a damn NINJA.
 
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My only problem with Val is as a solo PW it is a boring as fuck match up. 90% of the match is chasing each other back and forth... *yawn*
 
Spencer said:
My only problem with Val is as a solo PW it is a boring as fuck match up. 90% of the match is chasing each other back and forth... *yawn*
That's pretty much what footsies is.
 
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RetroStation said:
That's pretty much what footsies is.

Yup.

Doesn't stop it from being *yawn*. I much prefer the Squig/PW or MF/PW footsie.

Val and PW both have disgusting air mobility. Those matches are snoozefests.

Note: generally only solo Val. Assists inspire confidence.
 
juju_for_president said:
No, it isn't. I'm fairly certain that Filia's c.mk is safe on block.

Filia's cr.MK is -7 on block, only Parasoul can't punish it. Everybody else can at least get a raw super.
 
  • Her ground throw is just plain broken, other characters have to use a well timed OTG or special to continue the combo(sometimes even character specific), but not her, she just makes you crumple for what feels like an hour before she decides to start a combo in ANY way she wants. and yeah it scales the damage to 50% but that's irrelevant because she still gets more potential damage than the other characters and sooner or later she will go for a reset, it being a cross-up, a burst bait or god forbid another throw. I think they animated her throw based on the looks and not on balance.
Or maybe because she's, y'know a nurse? Given 240 Undizzy, her combos are a lot shorter, and scaling turns damage to shit in Val's case. Filia, Parasoul, and Squigly have cross-UNDERS which are a lot harder to reaction block imo.
  • s.Mp x2 gives you plenty of time to hitconfim, has good range and can drag the opponent to throw range, on top of that it is unpunishable (+3 on block!). Compare to filias c.Mk, which is fully punishable on block (even on hit wtf lol) and does NOT leave at throw range.
Except that s.MP DOESN'T always net you a hitconfirm because the hitstun on s.MP #2 is equal or less than a jab for each individual hit. Also, PBGC xx Diamond Drop says hello (as far as it being unpunishable).

  • s.HP has that steps back that dodges nearly anything the opponent throws at you and then lunges forward with crazy range, that's pretty good on its own, but wait it is nearly unpunishable too! (because hurtboxes and -3 on block).
Diamond Dynamo and Filia's IAD j.HP say good morrow, sir. Also, you don't really want to end blockstrings with s.HP. That's just my thing, though.
  • j.Mp being a multihit move is active for quite a long time and seems to have too much hitstun, sometimes a single hit of it on an airborne opponent can lead to a restand with jabs.
EVERYONE has multhit air normals that can restand.
  • Aerial checkmate incision once again is nearly unpunishable on whiff unless somehow you are already on the air, since she can just dash out of danger or even continue to pressure. Like really? If there's something global in fighting games is that aerial projectiles should leave you exposed when used improperly.
Fenrir Drive says hi.
  • Air to air Aerial savage bypass being a move so fast and with high reward if it hits is hard to react and punish on block because A)it pushes the opponent in a way it looks like it crossed over when that's not the case and B)valentine gets to the ground pretty fast, sometimes even faster than the opponent does.
For lack of better rebuttal, GIT GUD. Bypass is unsafe, ground or air. I've played Val for less than a week, and I know she has to put in work. She's FAR from broken, and I don't see her getting nerfed any time soon.
 
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