Why do some people consider Valentine a bad character?

Discussion in 'Valentine' started by ClarenceMage, Oct 23, 2014.

  1. ClarenceMage

    ClarenceMage git gud

    Steam:
    ClarenceMage
    PSN:
    ClarenceMage
    Valentine
    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Before I make some content outlining exactly why I believe Valentine is an amazing character, I'd like to get some concentrated feedback from disappointed Val players about why they don't consider Valentine a strong character. I'm making this a thread so that I don't have to scour the forums and pick out where people say things.

    Please include things like character matchup issues, offensive options, defensive options, your opinions on Valentine's playstyle, and anything else you can think of.
     
  2. Hilary

    Hilary Well-Known Member

    [opinions from guy who didn't make it out of Evo pools with said character]
     
    Kankato, BrandX+, gllt and 2 others like this.
  3. ClarenceMage

    ClarenceMage git gud

    Steam:
    ClarenceMage
    PSN:
    ClarenceMage
    Valentine
    Painwheel
    Big Band
    cmon hilary give me your opinions
     
  4. Hilary

    Hilary Well-Known Member

    She's great.
     
    KhaosMuffins, Kongk4, gllt and 4 others like this.
  5. ClarenceMage

    ClarenceMage git gud

    Steam:
    ClarenceMage
    PSN:
    ClarenceMage
    Valentine
    Painwheel
    Big Band
    I'm a bit lost - are you being sarcastic?

    I'm not ignoring you, I just don't want to respond to people's complaints about Valentine here until I get broad and detailed enough picture to make a mass response.
     
  6. Triblue

    Triblue Active Member

    Steam:
    jujubemaster
    Painwheel
    Ms. Fortune
    Double
    Most of the Valentines I have seen have gone for direct damage. Maybe people should try focusing more on setups and try to use different vials. She really excels in the corner but getting their seems to be the job of the assist in most cases.Again, I don't use Valentine though so I could be wrong.
     
  7. Mwisk

    Mwisk Wholehearted supporter! (Aka Mhardle)

    Location:
    Brazil
    Valentine
    Big Band
    Fukua
    I summon the most frustrated Val player in recent memory (close to Nekro maybe):

    @Colossi

    #Kappa
     
  8. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    Frankly i don't believe she's "bad" but i believe that there are some areas that other characters do much better.
    That said i can only speak about the areas that other characters can do much better than valentine. i do not play val
     
  9. Lem

    Lem Boing Boing :3

    QM Valentine is bad.
    Outlaw_Spike turtle Valentine and others I can't recall are good though.

    She floats in the air and flips around while flying better than Painwheel :^), reminds me of Peach hovering just above the ground in Smash.
    When you try and do anything she falls on you with one of her really dope multihitting normals that can be fast fall canceled into good mix up with her assists covering her too.

    Right but, bad character, I'm not sure...
    Probably lack of meterless reversal along with less than stellar damage output.
    Also she doesn't have any obvious high low mix ups without using fast fall canceling and really ambigious cancels and falls.
    Cross overs, though.
    That throw, though.
    Pick Filia or something, though.
     
  10. Colossi

    Colossi THE ONE THAT DODGES

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    Colossi
    Fukua
    Cerebella
    Unknown
    • No back dash/back airdash cancellable into normal
    • No high damage without loading a charge
    • No instant overhead
    • No reversal besides a slow-ass hitgrab that you can't even combo after it even tho you wasted 3 bars
    • A shitty tag in that even got nerfed
    • No safe DHC
    • No way to burst bait efficiently on the ground without wasting a meter
    • A lvl 2 that most of the times is not worth wasting because if you countered an air attack you won't be able to combo right because of height
    • The constant need of an DP assist to be not-that-lame with her
    • Slow/highly predictable resets without lag vial
    • No reliable anti-air
    • Not recovering from air bypass until you reach the ground or waste a meter to be kinda safe, and still suffer a 50% chance of being hit or grabbed after it
    • She is a ninja but needs to play defensively instead of being able to kill people fast and I think this is fucked up
    But hey, this is my opinion
     
    Kongk4 and SmashBlade like this.
  11. Duckator

    Duckator Well-Known Member Evo Champ '12 & '13

    Steam:
    steamcommunity.com/id/byab/
    PSN:
    Duckator
    IS VALENTINE A BAD CHARACTER?
     
    Icky, Furemu, Killabyte and 17 others like this.
  12. Cynical

    Cynical Sulphur and Mercury

    Steam:
    Changes constantly; search for "Cynical" and look for my avatar.
    Eliza
    Parasoul
    Cerebella
    Former Val player (yes, I've finally dropped her permanently, for Eliza) reporting.

    Let's start with the one thing that's good about Val:
    Val's reset game is utterly fucking terrifying -- on par with Filia's, possibly scarier. Best ground throw in the game, and j.mp ADC vs. Fastfall means endless high/low/crossup bullshit.

    Why she sucks:
    1. Awful assists.
    2. Supbar defensive options. Flatliner has very bad vertical range; Scalpels magically whiffs in a lot of cases. Reset her on the ground, and she's toast.
    3. Second worst damage in the game.
    4. Despite being a point character, she doesn't have the power in neutral that Eliza, Parasoul, Peacock, or Fukua do. Or, hell, even Bella, Squigly, Fortune, or Painwheel (the latter of those two, amusingly, outright obsolete Val, being better in literally every single regard other than having a slightly weaker reset game). Her normals are consistently very slow for the amount of space that they cover. The end result is that her entire neutral game is "move around and call assists", which means that she takes over twice the risk of her opponents on every "poke". Oh, and if that assist gets clobbered, then she's really fucked, since she's useless without.
    5. No block pressure. Her only + on block moves are on the lp button, and her s.mpx2, which is a free pushblock every single time (or, against some teams, a free alpha counter xx super).

    At the end of the day, the question with Val is "what, exactly, is this character supposed to fucking do"? Her utterly ass space control game and great resets would lead one to think she rushes down, but she has absolutely no fucking block pressure (oh, and her jab is slow, lol). As it stands, she's Filia without Updo (either as the gdlk assist or as defense), Gregor, any kind of block pressure, and with inferior damage.
     
    sauce_fonda likes this.
  13. Shin ATproof

    Shin ATproof I BRZ I Shin ATproof

    Location:
    Metallicana, Judas
    Steam:
    Shin_ATproof
    PSN:
    Shin_ATproof
    XBL:
    Shin ATproof
    Valentine
    Really? Curious...if she can deal half health for 1 bar, no poison in both midscreen and corner, it's still one of the worst in the game?

    In the air you have dash cancel j.MP, j.LK or j.MK and to screw with opponent's pushblock allowing Val to stay in the opponent's face.
     
  14. Cynical

    Cynical Sulphur and Mercury

    Steam:
    Changes constantly; search for "Cynical" and look for my avatar.
    Eliza
    Parasoul
    Cerebella
    Every single character in the game other than Parasoul can do that (and more...), so yes (maybe Para can too, with good tear toss combos?).

    If you always just rejump, there's so much dumb shit you can be killed by it's ridiculous. Every time you don't rejump, if your opponent blocks (and they really should, since once Val lands, her IAD j.hp is easily reactable), your pressure ends. Compare that to a character with actual pressure, like Filia, Fortune, or Parasoul, and... yeah.
     
  15. Cynical

    Cynical Sulphur and Mercury

    Steam:
    Changes constantly; search for "Cynical" and look for my avatar.
    Eliza
    Parasoul
    Cerebella
    I don't know what that image has to do with anything, but the alt-text under your avatar is an amazing song. Celtic Frost really did still have it after they came back.
     
  16. Witchfinder

    Witchfinder dead but dreaming

    Filia
    Cerebella
    Fukua
    Misunderstood the thread's concept (thought it meant "Why do some people consider Valentine evil?" rather than actually bad gameplay-wise). Apologies.

    But thank you. Glad someone recognizes that. Truthfully, Monotheist is the only album I care for by the band. Don't like their 80s stuff. That said, I adore the album and Triptykon, even had a lyric from The Prolonging (As you perish, I shall live) as my alt-text before I settled with this one.
     
  17. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Steam:
    may_contain_peanuts
    Double
    Big Band
    Peacock
    I feel like I say this in every thread about Valentine but I really do feel like it's a problem that her assist and DHC options are weak. And like I know someone would say something like dude c.MK multi hitting low that's a very usable assist, and ok sure, but it's not Filia c.MK or Squigly c.HP. Like, it's not an assist that's so good that you put Val on your team explicitly to have it. Val doesn't have any assists that are like "I want Val 2nd or 3rd on my team because she gives me such-and-such assist". All she really has going for her is her merits as a point character, and if she's viewed as a weak point character (and whether or not she is is another discussion, but there are totally people in this thread saying she is) then there's like no reason to play her.
     
    Colossi likes this.
  18. Vladislav_Paizis

    Vladislav_Paizis On hiatus from SG

    Location:
    Tallinn, Estonia
    Steam:
    Vladislav_Paizis
    PSN:
    Vlad7779311
    Ms. Fortune
    Eliza
    Unknown
    I tried learning Valentine but I got frustrated trying to adjust mine BnB to accommodate different hitboxes (Or is it hurtboxes? Am I getting the terms mixed up?) of the cast. With Fortune and Bella I just had universal BnBs instead of learning multiple variations.
     
    Dime likes this.
  19. Colossi

    Colossi THE ONE THAT DODGES

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    Colossi
    Fukua
    Cerebella
    Unknown
    Val has no decent universal bnb that manages to hit above 6k.
    I like having combos for different weights, but even some weight specific combos whiff occasionaly on Bella or Squigly and this is frustrating.
     
  20. chickenwithtie

    chickenwithtie Deez Beech

    Location:
    Italy
    Steam:
    Refluxia
    Robo Fortune
    Fukua
    Double
    So is it true that most Val players use her just for the boobs jiggling? Real question.
     
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  21. agent13

    agent13 h. osiris spiral is dumb

    Location:
    Toronto/Ottawa
    PSN:
    Rawalpindiblues
    Parasoul
    Eliza
    Valentine
    I do like playing val but there are some issues

    • you need to learn combos specifically for characters due to the basic bnb not working(fuck filia).
    • needs vial to do a decent amount of damage/lag gimmicks
    • metered reversals
    • No decent assists besides 2mk or bypass which are beyond mediocre
    • Assist reliant
    • one of the harder characters to use without as much payoff (this is big)
    • Throw range on air grab is laughable(plz buff this)
    well these are my issues with her anyways
     
  22. Shin ATproof

    Shin ATproof I BRZ I Shin ATproof

    Location:
    Metallicana, Judas
    Steam:
    Shin_ATproof
    PSN:
    Shin_ATproof
    XBL:
    Shin ATproof
    Valentine
    When I said "Half health" earlier, that was a very conservative estimate.

    Universal midscreen 3v3:
    If it's a c.LK=8.2K+
    If it's a j.HP=8.8K+
    No poison, 1 bar. Corner to corner push. By herself.

    Universal in the corner 3v3:
    If it's a c.LK=9.5K+
    If it's j.HP=10K+
    No poison, 1 bar. By herself.

    If any of ya'll are expecting her to hit like Bella, BigBand or Eliza, it ain't gonna happen because if she did, she'd receive a damage nerf because Mike would believe that's too much damage for the type of character that she is.

    It doesn't always have to be a rejump but should you be going for say j.HP (since crossups for days) or j.LK j.MP you can mess with opponent's pushblock with moves like an airdash cancel j.MP or j.MK and you hand right in front of them for a s.LP, c.LK, throw...whatever. The point is she can pressure opponents by staying right in their face. She has the highest mobility in the game. Use it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
    gllt and Mr Peck like this.
  23. Colossi

    Colossi THE ONE THAT DODGES

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    Colossi
    Fukua
    Cerebella
    Unknown
    I would like to have the notation for this, and also the damage in a 1.0 ratio.
     
  24. alexpi

    alexpi Your waifu sucks

    3v3 is 1.3x damage. If we're doing that, i can hit over 10k universal with Eliza. With Parasoul I can hit 8.5 with a corner carry against lights. Meterless with Squigly I can do 9k mid screen as a universal. 8.2k is damned unimpressive in 3v3
     
    Datagram and Colossi like this.
  25. Colossi

    Colossi THE ONE THAT DODGES

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    Colossi
    Fukua
    Cerebella
    Unknown
  26. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

    Location:
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Steam:
    fullbleed
    PSN:
    nFuLLBLeeD
    Ms. Fortune
    Big Band
    She's considered a weak character in a game where everybody is good. So hey there's that. Its easier to be a low tier hero/unique snowflake character player in a game where that's the case.

    She pretty much does have to be played on point though so there is that.
     
  27. Lem

    Lem Boing Boing :3

    What's the point of listing no vial, 1 bar, 2LK etc just to ruin it with a 1.30 damage ratio.

    Whenever you talk about damage comparison please make sure the damage ratio is set to 1.00.

    Also all this talk about shitty assists, meter reversals only, etc reminds me of Painwheel.
    I guess her one up is a safe DHC though.

    Let people DHC into Counter for 1 bar to make things safe :^)
     
  28. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    EXCEPT PW has near invisible resets? AND the best way to deal with mashed supers AND a good option to deal with rediuclous mixups via armor?
     
  29. Maddie

    Maddie mad madi madison Off-Topic Mod

    Location:
    Oregon
    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/MaddieCrusha/
    PSN:
    ToukoFukawa
    Eliza
    Robo Fortune
    Valentine is bad?


    edit: good :PUN:
     
  30. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Steam:
    may_contain_peanuts
    Double
    Big Band
    Peacock
    Painwheel is the other character with really subpar assists, but Hatred Install at least gives you a reason to run Painwheel second or third. The buffs to changed c.HP and c.HK I think really help her mixups after a DHC to install, still not as scary as cat heads but you have to make a real good guess after the DHC or you are in some super big trouble. Also as far as I know, Painwheel still has the only assist that lets Big Band convert off midscreen Super Sonic Jazz, so that's one reason you'd use her for the assist.
     
  31. Shin ATproof

    Shin ATproof I BRZ I Shin ATproof

    Location:
    Metallicana, Judas
    Steam:
    Shin_ATproof
    PSN:
    Shin_ATproof
    XBL:
    Shin ATproof
    Valentine
    Modified this as I was thinking about it...for those 3v3 combos I mentioned earlier...add like another 200 or so onto those combos when I did either of these.

    Gedan Juuji > Skyward Strike > Craniotomy > (ADC ) Forequarter Amputation* > Craniotomy > Stethoscope > Forequarter Amputation > Craniotomy > (ADC) Patellar Reflex > Cadaver Clone > (Dash) Checkupx3 > Transfemoral Amputation > Kakushi Caliper> Thoracotomy/IVNagitana > HK Savage Bypass xx EKG Flatliner

    6.3~6.5K+ on 1v1

    Craniotomy > Shin Splint Skyward Strike > Craniotomy > (ADC ) Forequarter Amputation* > Craniotomy > Stethoscope > Forequarter Amputation > Craniotomy > (ADC) Patellar Reflex > Cadaver Clone > (Dash) Checkupx3 > Transfemoral Amputation > Kakushi Caliper >Thoracotomy/IVNaginata > HK Savage Bypass xx EKG Flatliner

    6.8~7K+ on 1v1

    *The only difference between heavies and everyone else is 1 or 2 hits.

    There you go. Universal midcreen that yields high damage with no poison for 1 bar with only Valentine.
     
    Prototype likes this.
  32. Cynical

    Cynical Sulphur and Mercury

    Steam:
    Changes constantly; search for "Cynical" and look for my avatar.
    Eliza
    Parasoul
    Cerebella
    "High damage", doesn't even break 7K.

    That's second worst damage in the game. The only other character that can't easily break 7K for one bar is Parasoul.
     
  33. alexpi

    alexpi Your waifu sucks

    Parasoul can break 7k with 1 bar? Damn, I need to level up my combos
     
    Colossi likes this.
  34. Cynical

    Cynical Sulphur and Mercury

    Steam:
    Changes constantly; search for "Cynical" and look for my avatar.
    Eliza
    Parasoul
    Cerebella
    Uh... reading much?
     
  35. Shin ATproof

    Shin ATproof I BRZ I Shin ATproof

    Location:
    Metallicana, Judas
    Steam:
    Shin_ATproof
    PSN:
    Shin_ATproof
    XBL:
    Shin ATproof
    Valentine
    You people want the character with the highest mobility in the game to deal higher damage when I just listed a fucking midscreen combo that works on every character in the game that does nearly half health for the lowest amount of resources.

    The fuck!?

    Aight. Val sucks. Drop this character people. She's no good!
     
  36. Luweewu

    Luweewu Resident Meanie Gameplay Mod

    y
     
    gllt and Mr Peck like this.
  37. Shin ATproof

    Shin ATproof I BRZ I Shin ATproof

    Location:
    Metallicana, Judas
    Steam:
    Shin_ATproof
    PSN:
    Shin_ATproof
    XBL:
    Shin ATproof
    Valentine
    Because I can! :^)
     
  38. Cynical

    Cynical Sulphur and Mercury

    Steam:
    Changes constantly; search for "Cynical" and look for my avatar.
    Eliza
    Parasoul
    Cerebella
    For those who want it in real notation, it's:

    (whatever hitconfirm) -> c.hp -> jump cancel -> j.hp ADC j.mp -> j.hp
    Land and rejump
    j.lp -> j.mp -> j.hp adc j.mk -> j.hk
    Land and dash
    s.lpx3 -> s.mpx2 -> c.mk -> s.hkx3xxBypassxxFlatliner
     
  39. Shin ATproof

    Shin ATproof I BRZ I Shin ATproof

    Location:
    Metallicana, Judas
    Steam:
    Shin_ATproof
    PSN:
    Shin_ATproof
    XBL:
    Shin ATproof
    Valentine
    For real though. She's the closest thing to a pixy character in this game. You people want her to have high damage like the rest of cast. Do you want a pixy character or a character with high damage? PICK ONE!
     
  40. Cynical

    Cynical Sulphur and Mercury

    Steam:
    Changes constantly; search for "Cynical" and look for my avatar.
    Eliza
    Parasoul
    Cerebella
    As an actual pixie she's pretty damn bad given that her actual movement speed isn't terribly fast and her "alpha blade"-like move needs meter to do anything good, and the ground version is always awful, and her projectile is horribly minus on block.

    (Also, I didn't pick her because I wanted a pixie; I picked her because I wanted a character that threw fireballs on QCF but was more focused around using her normals in neutral rather than a pure projectile runaway. SG needs a shoto... Eliza kinda fits the bill, though).
     

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