Why do some people consider Valentine a bad character?

Discussion in 'Valentine' started by ClarenceMage, Oct 23, 2014.

  1. gllt

    gllt Dedicated

    Steam:
    gllt
    Valentine
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Ok I'll try and not drift topic too hard but what are Parasoul, Squigly, and Double in this context it's important to me
     
  2. Shin ATproof

    Shin ATproof I BRZ I Shin ATproof

    Location:
    Metallicana, Judas
    Steam:
    Shin_ATproof
    PSN:
    Shin_ATproof
    XBL:
    Shin ATproof
    Valentine
    The reason is people in this community tend to not try to be innovative or think outside the box with characters. They tend to follow who people assume is the best with that character and just try to emulate. In Valentine's case, people try to be Duckator 2.0 and when he has seemingly dropped the character so did many emulators or those remaining now search for reasons why they think she's terrible without trying anything new for themselves.

    Falsities like her damage being "too low" or "no universals" or "slow/predictable resets" is coming from people that haven't optimized combos and are over-reliant on poison/hitstun vials and assists to make the character work.

    This is what people should be looking for with this character, ESPECIALLY the sliding knockdown (with oki potential) from s.HK. You can corner push and load a vial and run up on their wakeup or go nuts and load two vials and your next vial combo is that more effective. Why more people don't use lag vial, I'll never truly understand. I guess they are more focued on guaranteed damage rather than potential damage. But then you get the people that think her resets are bad so they never try.....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!



    The animation would be a roadblock to that and don't expect any further changes to the flew shot. It took a lot of convincing Mike (and technical work on his end) to get with the current Dead Cross/Flew Shot change working with the animation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
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  3. Shin ATproof

    Shin ATproof I BRZ I Shin ATproof

    Location:
    Metallicana, Judas
    Steam:
    Shin_ATproof
    PSN:
    Shin_ATproof
    XBL:
    Shin ATproof
    Valentine
    Tried it just now. It works on Brass Knuckles and SSJ now but Painwheel's spindash move still shits on countervenom orz

    But MAN...I'm doing like 11K midscreen on BB with that super in 1v1 and like 12K with EKG added on lol....that's death on any other team size for sure long before that though lol
     
    gllt likes this.
  4. ashxu

    ashxu its time to ape

    Location:
    down under
    Steam:
    ashzu
    Valentine
    Big Band
    Fukua
    This is why I picked her initially, no joke.

    After a few months I realized I probably would like to play Ms.Fortune but by then it was too late as I was already becoming decent with Valentine.
     
  5. Triblue

    Triblue Active Member

    Steam:
    jujubemaster
    Painwheel
    Ms. Fortune
    Double
    I'm on board with orange vial and setups. I really want to see that orange vial used.
     
  6. worldjem

    worldjem Metal Gear Administrator

    Location:
    Canada (East)
    Steam:
    Sydoh
    PSN:
    worldjem7
    Robo Fortune
    Orange vial creates input delay. Who WOULDN'T want to hit their opponent with that?
     
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  7. ashxu

    ashxu its time to ape

    Location:
    down under
    Steam:
    ashzu
    Valentine
    Big Band
    Fukua
    I don't know why people are saying she doesn't have universal combos though, if you bothered to spend 5 minutes looking up her combos you'd realize she does.

    Also don't include Flatliner in your damage comparisons for combos, if you're doing Flatliner it's only on a kill/DHC. It's pointless to compare her combo damage, I'd much rather compare how much of a risk/reward she gets from doing resets.
     
  8. ashxu

    ashxu its time to ape

    Location:
    down under
    Steam:
    ashzu
    Valentine
    Big Band
    Fukua
    Because you need to weigh the benefit of doing Orange when you have Purple that adds damage.
     
  9. Hilary

    Hilary Well-Known Member

    tbh i have nothing for the analogy lol

    squigly and parasoul's combos are boring as fuck but I absolutely love when squiglies are really stancel/tk-divekick reset crazy like fuzzy or when paras dash in with low/high stuff behind shots like kenin.

    fuzzy, kenin, and sage's doubles are the ones i've tried to copy the most in terms of pacing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
    gllt likes this.
  10. Cynical

    Cynical Sulphur and Mercury

    Steam:
    Changes constantly; search for "Cynical" and look for my avatar.
    Eliza
    Parasoul
    Cerebella
    Sliding knockdown Oki was the cornerstone of my Val offense for quite a while. There's a reason I stopped using it; undizzy means you get one more mixup -> combo, and then your momentum is forced to stall.
     
  11. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Hilary

    Hilary Well-Known Member

    pretty much the only time I get hype for parasoul combos are when there's something I recognize as a funky link or cool use of assist like sev's 6HP > shot/pillar/quake stuff, air toss hold instant detonates, or some really wacky gllt 4HK loop stuff
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
  13. agent13

    agent13 h. osiris spiral is dumb

    Location:
    Toronto/Ottawa
    PSN:
    Rawalpindiblues
    Parasoul
    Eliza
    Valentine
    If anything i find painwheel combos more boring then valentine combos
     
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  14. Hilary

    Hilary Well-Known Member

    she used to have the most fun Urien-est combos ever. RIP. ;_;7
     
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  15. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    You're even capable of having won sets against people who never played a set with you

    Hugely talented, you must be
     
    Flotilla likes this.
  16. Spencer

    Spencer Painwheel

    Location:
    Wyoming
    Steam:
    qspec
    Painwheel
    Squigly
    I did.

    I'm talking in relative terms. Is the new one worse than the old one? Absolutely. Did the new one impact Peacock's game? Almost negligibly.

    It turned it from a one button wonder to a two button wonder.
     
    Dime likes this.
  17. cloudKing211

    cloudKing211 King of White Puffs

    Location:
    New Jersey, United States
    Steam:
    akiraxion
    PSN:
    cloudKing211
    Valentine
    Unknown
    Double
    I would like to put my two cents in because I think its a good cause and SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY
    ahem*

    Anyways, Val is a great character. She's well designed for what she does, just like the rest of the cast. You may think of her as great, terrible, ok, the worst, the best, whatever, but that is not what discussing a character should be (one line epithets like "shes op", or "Shes the worst". The fact that Mike says that Val is great, despite never playing her (idk about this though) and only seeing three players do much of anything with her (Duck, Omni, TOOD), should mean something (you know coming from a long time competitive player, who is actually good from what I have seen, and last time I checked he pretty much made them gameplay wise). He would probably know something about his cast. But never mind that now.

    What I keep hearing about Val is two extremes: Either Val sucks (group 1- coming from vocal players who seem to find less than optimal play from her), or say she is good/great/op (group 2- who generally only say this when the first group says something). Yet she has yet to see high competitive play (sans those 3 prior mentioned players). Are they the only ones that group 2 has played (most likely no), do they sometimes get random-ed out ONLINE (probably). But even then an opinion based on a bias is going to be exactly that: an opinion that is biased (Don't shoot me). Pretty much neither of these groups can share info and have a good discussion without ceding a few points:

    1. These are opinions based on preconceived notions from ones own experience, and should move on to talk about what are her strengths and weaknesses are and the overall ability of the rest of the cast to handle said strength/weaknesses.
    2. This game is so variable (due to the obvious: Team size, team order, assist choice) that many past concepts of forming tier lists/meta-gaming/jumping the bandwagon fail to apply to this game, at least it has in the grand scheme of what we call a competitive scene (Come on guys this can always be better if you join it).
    3. Thinking about asking for buffs in areas not needed, and asking for nerfs where it is not needed, should hopefully never leave your head at least when conversing in a discussion of a fighting game character (I mean Mike has been better to us then most game developers have ever been, and they actually made money on their games for most of their lifespans, so cut the buff/nerf requests

    So now that the "Stop Bitching" disclaimer is set, I will proceed to tell you why I believe that Val is great!

    1.Val is a fast character. Now before you hit me with the, "thats obvious", let me explain. Valentine to me seems to have been designed with a fast punish game: having a vast array of tools in order to bait her opponent into doing things they they normally wouldn't. Tools such as dead cross, body bag, IV pole as well as her cr.mk (max range), and her j.hp (pivotal move:safe on block, lots of blockstun, and crossup utility), are made for spacing, as well as meant to be carefully spaced, you know as if you spaced a move where your opponent will be rather than where they are, yet maintaining a safe distance. Her run is very well designed for this purpose, it is just a straight run that has low startup and ending time, so she has the speed to advance upon her enemies space when she has conditioned her opponent or going in for a read. These all seem to point to a less then braindead, "Oh, let me just run up and spam j.hk/j.hp/s.hk because they are op lol", and more of the "what can I do to olutplay my opponent/Go where I want them to go". Her airdash seems to be angled in such a way so that instead of just a crossover tool or a fast movement (not that fast if you try using it alot), it can be used DEFENSIVELY as well, such as avoiding setups (backdash-airdash cancel) or even reversals (there is a way to avoid pillar with it, sadly have yet to find the perfect timing for it). Of course, the variety of angles it gives her moves is great as well, as she is one of, if not the only character to have such trajectories for attacks. She also has one of the best tools to bait reversals, pushblocks, and even mashing: j.mp. This move is feared by many, and for good reason. It is one of 2 air normals that allow for easy air to air conversion (j.mp and j.hk), as well as being multi-hit (eats armor, harder to pushblock, etc). Her pressure in the corner with almost any hitstun inducing assist, with just j.mp is probably the best in the game, because just a super jump can give her the time she needs to setup her opponent or capitalize on their reaction. Overall: Greatest ground mobility, above average air mobility, and great spacing capabilities

    2. Val has a strategic mechanic that has great synergy with her spacing: Dead Cross and Vials. Many seem to think when a Val throws a cross in midair, drops down and jumps and does it again is playing lame. In fact, dead cross is a very good conditioning tool. It can be used as a harry tactic to incur a jump in or dash under in which Val can respond to. Or it can be used to study your opponents gameplan and jump-ins, thus finding out preferred setups and avoiding them, or punishing them. Vials themselves act as a pseudo-resource for val allowing even more strategy to her style. There are 3 vial types: poison (DPS), hitstun (increases hitstun on vial and all other follow ups), and input delay (delays opponents inputs). A vial can be loaded to a max charge of 3, and any type change will add a level and change the current vial. This tool alone makes me love to play val, because it makes her dangerous whenever she loads a single vial. The second a vial is loaded, an opponent becomes aware that Val's damage, neutral, or reset capabilities multiply. She can inflict a daunting feeling into her opponents, because val can do so much with 1 vial, which in turn eases her weaknesses in neutral (will get to that).

    3. Val functions with a variety of assists, not just reversals. Val has been shown to function so well with dp assists, that many dont even consider that you can run her without them. Val can be scary with any assist hit, due to j.mp and fastfalls (forgot to mention that earlier). So val with any lockdown, high hitstun, safe armored (lnl most likely), is a force to be reckoned with. She is absurd with dps because her run allows for the easiest conversions and the easiest corner carry from such an assist hit. Val is very good at converting, which can be done with almost any assist.

    Now for why I think she is not so great.

    1. Lack of reversal. Now don't me for this, but I have thought "what if val had a dp". I honestly used to think that val would be great, why doesnt she have one, gimme". I never thought how good it would be, even if it allowed absolutely no follow ups. An invincible return to neutral would be as some say "OP", because that is where she shines, converting hits and maintaining pressure, whilst baiting her opponents to make mistakes. If a reset button was ever given to val, I feel that she would BE the meta, not just a part of it. However, this is technically still a weakness, since her easiest reversal is limited to either EKG, Dead on Arrival (only if you feel you have the read, and by this I mean YOU HAVE THE READ), or level 5 (This should only be done if you know it will kill, or it will revive. So has meter dependency for reversals which is not the best, when under pressure (Baiting is great, so meter on a reversal that misses is the worst)

    2. Lack of Anti Air. Vals grounded anti airs, cr.mp (decent), s.mp(less reliable), and s.hk (why do this). Her aerial AAs are jump into j.mp and j.hk. These do not do well against the variety of large hitboxes that some chars can swing around because of their less than stellar range and utility.Just just has problems challenging normals when you normally would want to (IAD shenanigans, opponent's jump in fierce or roundhouse, etc). She just has less options. For AA anyways

    3. As I mentioned earlier, is that val can be very rewarding for smart gameplay, using her tools in a strategy for a good punish game or conversion game by enforcing her rule into neutral. However, if this is not setup, many characters can approach her unchecked, Para tear into float can mess with her big time (AA problems) bella j.mp. Painwheel in midair is very good against val (that matchup is the scariest chess match OMG), and others. If you get taken into their gameplan, val has trouble getting out due to her meter dependent reversals and pressure options.

    Overall, I believe that Valentine's neutral is above average, her pressure is beyond average, her damage is below average (base), and her defense is playable, yet strained. Overall the scariness of her offense screams top tier, whilst her defensive options and neutral woes scream otherwise. Therefore. I believe in what I said earlier, Val is a contender for solid mid tier if not high mid.

    So there you go, a book for only two cents, what a bargain :p
     
  18. ashxu

    ashxu its time to ape

    Location:
    down under
    Steam:
    ashzu
    Valentine
    Big Band
    Fukua
    I thought everyone thought that Valentine was the best character in the game
     
  19. gllt

    gllt Dedicated

    Steam:
    gllt
    Valentine
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    thought is the key word
    suddenly she's garbage lol

    (she's not)

    @Hilary is this hype



    NSFW for music

    edit:

    She does have SOME anti airs as menitoned above. And LVL 2 is sooo good.
     
    Kongk4, Hilary, Colossi and 1 other person like this.
  20. cloudKing211

    cloudKing211 King of White Puffs

    Location:
    New Jersey, United States
    Steam:
    akiraxion
    PSN:
    cloudKing211
    Valentine
    Unknown
    Double
    Gllt, I know you can probably do this (probably), but can you design a combo with para + HP LNL with an early f hp loop in order maximize paras damage?
     
    gllt likes this.
  21. Dagwood

    Dagwood Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Canada
    Steam:
    Dagwood
    PSN:
    crond1zzle
    Parasoul
    Cerebella
    Double
    how about her Command throw though, no one ever uses it. I'd like to see it buffed, the animation is cool.
     
  22. worldjem

    worldjem Metal Gear Administrator

    Location:
    Canada (East)
    Steam:
    Sydoh
    PSN:
    worldjem7
    Robo Fortune
    That's the difference between going for resets and going for max damage combos.
     
  23. gllt

    gllt Dedicated

    Steam:
    gllt
    Valentine
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    It already got a speed buff and a damage nerf at the same time and I thought that was good enough. All I wish is that it were easier to convert off midscreen, it already costs meter and in the corner. Midscreen you have to time a -very tight- scalpels and use assist or do a weird conversion..

    edit

    working on it now, its tight/tough if I use fHP in the first string, I might post both versions for that reasoning if you actually want this to be half ass practical
     
  24. Spencer

    Spencer Painwheel

    Location:
    Wyoming
    Steam:
    qspec
    Painwheel
    Squigly
    It has definitely been used vs me... pushblock bait punishes I think.

    It is just another tool in her reset arsenal.
     
  25. ashxu

    ashxu its time to ape

    Location:
    down under
    Steam:
    ashzu
    Valentine
    Big Band
    Fukua
    I personally don't really care for the move. If the move was deleted I wouldn't care. I don't think it will be very good at all unless it gets some dramatic changes.

    Or someone finds some really amazing tech that uses it.
     
  26. WingZero

    WingZero S-class Jerk

    Steam:
    WingZero
    PSN:
    WingZero626
    Filia
    Valentine is a lot better than people give her credit for imo. I don't play her as much simply because I'm not feeling her anymore. NOt because she's a bad character. Just cause you can't get good with her doesn't make her bad. I still think Val can dunk on Filia and Parasoul, but that's just me.
     
  27. agent13

    agent13 h. osiris spiral is dumb

    Location:
    Toronto/Ottawa
    PSN:
    Rawalpindiblues
    Parasoul
    Eliza
    Valentine
    Someone found some really good tech with it but it got nerfed lmfao
    fucking band with his air command grab and that stupid ass thing, i was dping harder then a scrubby ryu
     
  28. ashxu

    ashxu its time to ape

    Location:
    down under
    Steam:
    ashzu
    Valentine
    Big Band
    Fukua
    I see the opposite, people saying she's overpowered or too strong and needs nerfs but I suppose we are both looking at different subsets of players.

    Someone even suggested that she should have to choose between double jumping or super jumping.
     
  29. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    They're already different angles with different buttons, sir or madam. Both shurikens and syringes. Try it.

    Flat's not a bad idea, but it definitely won't fit the animation.

    There is a difference between "this character has no useful assists" and "another assist is better at some things". The latter doesn't mean this character's assists are useless. Yes, you wouldn't pick them solely for their assist, but the assists are attached to a character that you may want or not want to use with other strengths or weaknesses.

    You speak in absolutes, and incorrect absolutes at that. Consider your own skill level and understanding of the game when applying generalities.
    For example, after sliding, even at max undizzy - which is not a thing you are required to reach - you can do a safe-jump mixup into another sliding knockdown, which gives you another mixup as well as a poison load and corner push and keeps momentum. (Yes, you do get a poison load as well as possibly crossup okizeme off s.HKx3, even midstage.) True, you did not go for a max-damage combo in between, but assuming that not doing that makes a thing useless is kinda unbelievably wrong.

    "I have an opinion. The game developer does not share that opinion. My opinion is not wrong, the game developer is, even though I have provided no facts and other people have."
    Do you realize how you sound?
     
    Midiman, Kongk4, SmashBlade and 5 others like this.
  30. WingZero

    WingZero S-class Jerk

    Steam:
    WingZero
    PSN:
    WingZero626
    Filia
    >Needs nerfing
    I'm not saying she needs nerfs. IMO she has nothing that's busted. Coming up with nerfs are peoples solutions to things they can't handle.
     
    destruction_adv likes this.
  31. gllt

    gllt Dedicated

    Steam:
    gllt
    Valentine
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Thanks for the reply and the info, helped with some lab I'm doing but I noticed something..

    LVL 2 green vial is -50 undizzy.. +20?

    and 3 is -100.. +20? meaning -30 and -80 respectively. Is this on purpose or a bug? It counts the special into the subtraction??
     
  32. ashxu

    ashxu its time to ape

    Location:
    down under
    Steam:
    ashzu
    Valentine
    Big Band
    Fukua
    I misread your post, thought you said that people thought she was weaker than she actually is.

    I wasn't implying you meant that she was OP.


    I don't think she's too strong or too weak. She's on the strong side but I don't believe she needs nerfs at all.
     
    gllt and WingZero like this.
  33. gllt

    gllt Dedicated

    Steam:
    gllt
    Valentine
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    About the vial thing, it doesn't happen if it's in the first chain.

    cLK cMK1 sHP GVial (Level 2) is -50

    but if I throw it later in the combo, it's -30

    if it's on purpose that's cool just wondering wtf lol, I'm doing it after a jMK

    here's the combo I'm testing it with

    cLK cMK1 cHP jLK jHP adc jMP1 jHP rejump jLP jMP1 jHK adc jMK2 GVial (Level 2) is -30 undizzy

     
  34. Spencer

    Spencer Painwheel

    Location:
    Wyoming
    Steam:
    qspec
    Painwheel
    Squigly
    Not always. Sometimes things are just busted.

    That said, Val most definitely does not need nerfs.

    She's annoying as shit, and boring as hell, but in no way is she broke.
     
    WingZero likes this.
  35. agent13

    agent13 h. osiris spiral is dumb

    Location:
    Toronto/Ottawa
    PSN:
    Rawalpindiblues
    Parasoul
    Eliza
    Valentine
    The only thing broke about her is her back from carrying those fake titties all day, i mean pardon?
     
  36. gllt

    gllt Dedicated

    Steam:
    gllt
    Valentine
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Remember kids sHK is disjointed and I'm inconsistent, sorry for the goofs

     
    Shin ATproof likes this.
  37. Shin ATproof

    Shin ATproof I BRZ I Shin ATproof

    Location:
    Metallicana, Judas
    Steam:
    Shin_ATproof
    PSN:
    Shin_ATproof
    XBL:
    Shin ATproof
    Valentine
    DuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuUUUUUUUDE! I know the pain of the last couple of moves whiffing. Sometimes s.MP~MP makes a character fall out of timed wrong or s.HP just missing and I'm like "fuck...that'd be a reversal super on me"

    Those BB it's pretty neat. It's almost like you're taunting someone to burst when getting hit with the s.HKx3....a vial load is in order there methinks.
     
  38. Colossi

    Colossi THE ONE THAT DODGES

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    Colossi
    Fukua
    Cerebella
    Unknown
    @gllt
    change the last air chain to j.lp j.mp(1) j.hk IAD j.mk j.hk
    6.6k
     
    gllt likes this.
  39. cloudKing211

    cloudKing211 King of White Puffs

    Location:
    New Jersey, United States
    Steam:
    akiraxion
    PSN:
    cloudKing211
    Valentine
    Unknown
    Double
    Gllt!!!! have you learned how to use paras float in a combo yet? IT s CrAzy fun with lnl or bomber
     
    gllt likes this.
  40. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Steam:
    KhaosMuffins
    PSN:
    KhaosMuffins
    Ms. Fortune
    Unknown
    Unknown
    Thank you @IsaVulpes
    Show Spoiler

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014

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