Why do some people consider Valentine a bad character?

Discussion in 'Valentine' started by ClarenceMage, Oct 23, 2014.

  1. sewy

    sewy Active Member

    PSN:
    sewy
    Parasoul
    Double
    Fukua
    Well i guess people consider her bad for her damage output and cause she doesn't have an invincible DP or any invincible/armor move for that matter, but for me, she is great.

    Jumping back with j.HK is so easy to hit confirm into a full combo or cancelled into a dead cross, air dash, j.MP for more pressure. iad j.HP can cross up which is ridiculous some times (not as good as Filia's iad j.HK, but still) solid pressure, amazing grabs, very scary reset game specially with her lag vial, definitely the most underrated move in the game, her countervenom is so hype and the fact that she can decide when to throw the syringe now makes her so much better. Also, iad j.MP pressure all day against people that use armor assists like those are the second coming of Jesus Christ, Val multi hit moves break armor like its nothing.

    Granted, she's way better with an assist on her back but i think she's awesome anyway and btw, she has a bubblehead nurse palette, she's just perfect, accept it.
     
  2. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Norcal
    Steam:
    remikz_
    PSN:
    RemiKz_
    Peacock
    Filia
    Cerebella

    7600 damage without a vial loaded, 8k with.

    I don't even use this character.
     
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  3. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    @mcpeanuts
    HK Bypass lets Big Band combo two SSJs without using sound stun! Mash assist and then do the 2nd super when they hit the ground.

    Oh right and people skipped the fact that you can't hit the body or limbs on j.HK.
     
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  4. Hilary

    Hilary Well-Known Member

    edit: nvm we should probably take para things elsewhere is-val-good thread is probably very serious
     
    Mr. X and gllt like this.
  5. Mr. X

    Mr. X Groovy Gameplay Mod Lead

    That means he can do 3 with sound stun?

    :oooooooo
     
  6. gllt

    gllt Dedicated

    Steam:
    gllt
    Valentine
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Those changes, I'm hype
     
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  7. Shuffleupagus

    Shuffleupagus Member

    Location:
    Western Australia
    Steam:
    shuffleupagus
    PSN:
    Calm_Index
    Ms. Fortune
    Double
    Big Band
    As someone who regularly plays against Val players, I'm really not looking forward to these changes.
     
  8. Fizzxwizz

    Fizzxwizz lit News Writer

    Location:
    Arizona
    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/Fizzxwizz
    PSN:
    E_Mano
    Ms. Fortune
    Unknown
    Not quite, because they hit the ground before the bypass hits them, letting them tech before you can hit with giant step the next time. You can get 3 without sound stun however if you're supering out of the corner, because it puts them in the corner and allows enough time to ssj again without sound stun or assist, then you can do the bypass thing after that. I think they need to be a little higher than normal for the second ssj to hit without letting them hit the ground, so it kinda requires them to be in the air or you need to launch/beat extend which uses sound stun I think.
    [/mostly relevant bandchat]

    Uhhh these val changes look interesting I don't know a lot about this character but from what I've seen on the changes they make her less boring to watch so that's cool.

    Someone correct me then delete this post I can't be seen talking about gameplay.
     
  9. ashxu

    ashxu its time to ape

    Location:
    down under
    Steam:
    ashzu
    Valentine
    Big Band
    Fukua
    Bypass change is unnecessary. It looks cool but to the people who are going to pick up Valentine now, it's not like she got any ridiculous buffs (Not from what it looks like anyway)

    The QoL changes are welcome although don't affect me much. I don't use that wonky s.MP catch combo.

    One QoL I sorta want to see is expanding c.HP's hitbox inwards towards Valentine because there are some instances where you accidentally cross yourself up and the other character slides down Valentine's arm and c.HP whiffs.

    Also maybe make the damage floor of Scalpels higher? At point blank it barely does any damage so most of the time if you need to kill you'll want to DHC or use Flatliner. Maybe increasing it by 200-400, idk.

    Just thinking out loud.
     
  10. Adeveis

    Adeveis PS3 Skullbats Host

    Location:
    Norcross, GA
    Steam:
    Adeveis
    PSN:
    Sabaku45dahaka
    Parasoul
    Squigly
    Big Band
    Ok I didn't read this whole thread so I don't know what was already said but here is my input. Val's damage output isn't really that bad. The light weight bnb I stole from duckator does about 6500 1v1 but it corner to corner carries. The heavy weight bnb does about 7100. Using assists to load vials inbetween (or just having one at the ready) allow you to break 7600+. Maybe not max damage but i've only gotten 6800 with parasoul midscreen and 7000 with double in the corner. Val's bnbs are character specific but I never felt like that really made her low damage.
    Her neutral is pretty strong. It's kinda like peacocks in the sense she uses projectiles and her mobility to make her hard to catch. The fact that she can be at so many different angles ( as shown by isavulpes and khaosmuffins) gives her the ability to pretty much dominate most matchups. Speaking of matchups, her only real bad one is painwheel. She does pretty good against peacock and fukua(albeit still annoying to deal with). She doesn't have a dp, but I personally believe having a lot of air mobility and an air super make her better than parasoul.
    Val's mixup and block pressure really isn't that great though. I do like being able to end a combo in a sliding knockdown and tagging to someone with better pressure and mixup though.

    That's all I got for now. If I think of anything else I'll post more(or not).
     
  11. Fedora_Ninja

    Fedora_Ninja Never asked for this.

    Steam:
    Fedora Ninja
    Valentine
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    My only complaint for Val is that her L Dead Cross doesn't hit on certain characters after an air grab in the corner. I also can't seen to land a vial after an air grab on certain characters either.
     
    ClarenceMage likes this.
  12. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    Looking cooler is completely necessary, and was the entire point. (^.^)
    A bit more damage is a bit more damage.
    Lag vial and counter buffs are also useful, people seem to miss the idea that buffing moves you don't use makes them moves you should use more...

    Vid or combo notation example?

    Vid or character list? "Certain characters" doesn't help me fix it. The angle of L cross and syringe is changed so whenever that update happens maybe it's fixed...
     
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  13. Colossi

    Colossi THE ONE THAT DODGES

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    Colossi
    Fukua
    Cerebella
    Unknown
    The techs, man
    The techs
     
  14. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    That one is never gonna hit no matter what I do to the hitbox, they're already completely behind you when it goes active.
     
  15. Colossi

    Colossi THE ONE THAT DODGES

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    Colossi
    Fukua
    Cerebella
    Unknown
    I'm not asking to extend the hitbox.
    Also, in the video is badly executed.
    I like that cross a lot and works with pretty much everyone, even big band with the right timing.
     
  16. Fedora_Ninja

    Fedora_Ninja Never asked for this.

    Steam:
    Fedora Ninja
    Valentine
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Here's a list. I may be an idiot with shit execution, but these are the characters I couldn't get consistent with for some reason.

    Eliza - Corner, vial
    Fortune - corner Dead cross + vial, midscreen vial
    Squigly - midscreen vial hits, but needs to change timing
    Filia/Fukua - corner Dead cross + vial, midscreen vial
    Cerebella - Corner Dead cross + Vial, midscreen vial, midscreen dead cross requires early cancel from throw


    Also this seems relevant. If anyone bitched about needing to spend meter to convert off an air grab, lab harder.


    got it to +8 once, dunno the reason why/how. Yes it works midscreen, but I don't have a full list on who it works on and doesn't work on. Easiest on Double and Band. Band doesn't require an air dash. Hitting with a green or orange vial would be great in this situation for obvious reasons.
     
  17. Outlaw_Spike

    Outlaw_Spike ROFLCOPTER

    Location:
    Baltimore, Maryland
    Steam:
    Outlaw_Spike
    PSN:
    OutlawSpike
    Valentine
    While you're looking at Val, could you take a look at her s.LP, too? At point-blank range, at least one of the 3 LPs will whiff on Double, Filia/Fukua, Val herself, and Peacock (depending on where she is in her crouch animation).

    Can't wait to play around with these changes!
     
  18. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    Looking cooler was pretty much the only buff Valentine needed.
    Now we only need to kill all the old combos so the Bypass stuff is mandatory, and the char will be fun to fight against~
     
    gllt likes this.
  19. destruction_adv

    destruction_adv Yare Yare Daze

    Valentine
    Filia
    Double
    Sure, let's make the bypass combos do 30% more damage than the old ones so no one will use them.
     
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  20. Colossi

    Colossi THE ONE THAT DODGES

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    Colossi
    Fukua
    Cerebella
    Unknown
    who needs damage when you have style
    you don't even need 2 bypasses in air midscreen, just be able to combo off of them.
     
    gllt likes this.
  21. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    Don't use s.LP vs crouching, then.

    I meant, that setup will always be a viable whiff even if I were to fix it.
     
    Sydoh, gllt, Colossi and 1 other person like this.
  22. ashxu

    ashxu its time to ape

    Location:
    down under
    Steam:
    ashzu
    Valentine
    Big Band
    Fukua
    Some combos against Filia and stuff can do the weird cross up but now that I've played with it a bit more it seems like it's more the fact that Valentine takes a step forward so it just completely whiffs. I can't remember the combos anymore because I scrapped them for that reason.

    Also yeah I like the lvl2 buff, forgot about that.
     
    gllt likes this.
  23. Tomo009

    Tomo009 Well-Known Member

    Eliza
    Robo Fortune
    Beowulf
    The old ones have corner carry, so there will always be a reason to chose them.

    I do think it is cool that she gets the option to go for damage instead of corner off a confirm if she wants, now, though. Not that she needs any buffs.
     
    gllt likes this.
  24. Hilary

    Hilary Well-Known Member





    Up to you.

    Val can:
    • cMK so that they fall on its active frames (not optimal CH/undizzy and subsequent cHP launches them higher/weirder than where a normal cHP would've put them)
    • backdash > doublejump(9) jHP jHK (optimal damage:undizzy but not universal, and difficult to get between the burst and them landing from burst when midscreen)
    Val + Bomber/Cerecopter/Whatever can:
    • jHK + Assist (scaling considerations, requires assist)

    I remember you kicking around a bursts-don't-cause-preblock idea for a while which could just as easily fix this one, but I'm sure there's combo lab monsters having problems with this too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2014
  25. ClarenceMage

    ClarenceMage git gud

    Steam:
    ClarenceMage
    PSN:
    ClarenceMage
    Valentine
    Painwheel
    Big Band
    I'd personally just do an s.LP conversion off of a midscreen burst bait. It's not optimal but it is something.
     
  26. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

    Location:
    California
    Steam:
    Stuff | Stuff | Stuff | Stuff
    Robo Fortune
    Ms. Fortune
    Double
    Fortune has a similar problem (after a burst) and I'm not sure if this applies to Val but I just backdash then 2hp because there's enough time after a burst.

    EDIT: Perhaps a fairly delayed 2hp could do it?
     
  27. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Steam:
    may_contain_peanuts
    Double
    Big Band
    Peacock
    @Agent J @RickoniX
     
    Agent J likes this.
  28. dekillsage

    dekillsage Gloomy EVO Champ 2014

    Double
    Fukua
    Cerebella
    cool val experiments. They in the beta yet?
     
  29. Colossi

    Colossi THE ONE THAT DODGES

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    Colossi
    Fukua
    Cerebella
    Unknown
    Launching them right away would throw they too damn high
    Also, this is an option
     
  30. cloudKing211

    cloudKing211 King of White Puffs

    Location:
    New Jersey, United States
    Steam:
    akiraxion
    PSN:
    cloudKing211
    Valentine
    Unknown
    Double
    No :(
     
  31. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

    Location:
    California
    Steam:
    Stuff | Stuff | Stuff | Stuff
    Robo Fortune
    Ms. Fortune
    Double
    So when val buffs come in I can finally test if fortune buffs are even helpful or not. ...Right?
     
  32. Shin ATproof

    Shin ATproof I BRZ I Shin ATproof

    Location:
    Metallicana, Judas
    Steam:
    Shin_ATproof
    PSN:
    Shin_ATproof
    XBL:
    Shin ATproof
    Valentine
    The additional hits with the head are annoying. Kid Panda was trying them out last Salty.
     
  33. Shin ATproof

    Shin ATproof I BRZ I Shin ATproof

    Location:
    Metallicana, Judas
    Steam:
    Shin_ATproof
    PSN:
    Shin_ATproof
    XBL:
    Shin ATproof
    Valentine
    Also Valentine Buffs.

    It's really nice being able to combo from any hit in the air now. Countervenom on an enemy too high in the air to combo will be a thing of the past.

    Getting upwards of 6.8~7.7K no poison 1 bar (1v1) using new Bypass routes....pretty funny shit.
     
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  34. cloudKing211

    cloudKing211 King of White Puffs

    Location:
    New Jersey, United States
    Steam:
    akiraxion
    PSN:
    cloudKing211
    Valentine
    Unknown
    Double
    its in now? OMW
     
  35. render

    render Fraud Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Parasoul
    Squigly
    Not quite. Shin was at the UGC thing on Saturday night playing around with the changes. It'll probably be in the next beta update, whenever that is. Hang tight. :D
     
    gllt likes this.
  36. Fedora_Ninja

    Fedora_Ninja Never asked for this.

    Steam:
    Fedora Ninja
    Valentine
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Whoa what happened to page 5 of this thread? Every time I click Chrome freaks out and says it contains malware.
     
  37. Shin ATproof

    Shin ATproof I BRZ I Shin ATproof

    Location:
    Metallicana, Judas
    Steam:
    Shin_ATproof
    PSN:
    Shin_ATproof
    XBL:
    Shin ATproof
    Valentine
    Clearly, this thread has gone viral :PUN:
     
  38. Some Person

    Some Person Pretty Pony Princess

    Steam:
    Apple Jack
    PSN:
    xervort13
    Valentine
    Double
    Cerebella
    Shin no
     
    Kongk4, Fosh, Colossi and 4 others like this.
  39. Agent J

    Agent J Elite Beat Agent Rank BA-2

    Location:
    EBA HQ
    Steam:
    Agents_Are_GO
    PSN:
    Elite_Agent_J
    Valentine
    Big Band
  40. MizterMM

    MizterMM Member Banned

    Valentine
    If I knew Val was a "bad" character from the beggining I never would had spent over 300 hours playing it.

    I picked one character from day one and just kept playing it because I thought they where all balanced.

    I am committed to Val now.

    I don't want all those hours going to waste,

    Oh w3ll...
     

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