Why do some people consider Valentine a bad character?

Discussion in 'Valentine' started by ClarenceMage, Oct 23, 2014.

  1. Tomo009

    Tomo009 Well-Known Member

    Eliza
    Robo Fortune
    Beowulf
    hint: She is not a bad character
     
    FenrirHades and Mr Peck like this.
  2. Prototype

    Prototype Member

    Valentine
    Filia
    Big Band
    Then please whatever you do don't break mine. I have alot of tech with this interaction in particular.

     
  3. Arcana

    Arcana BTSW | Gayonetta

    Location:
    Tampa, Florida
    Steam:
    Arcana
    PSN:
    Gayonetta-2
    XBL:
    OnionKnight14
    Fukua
    Squigly
    Wouldnt that have been taken away because of how s.mp works now?
     
  4. Prototype

    Prototype Member

    Valentine
    Filia
    Big Band
    Haven't seen my computer in like 2 or 3 days so I have no idea. If anyone wants to test then please do. You can set it up with just the first hit of mpx2 and get cross up shuriken+assist but I don't know right now.
     
  5. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    Uh yeah, that should have been fixed by s.MPx2 dragging them downward. Although the behind c.HP would not have changed if I improved the hitbox. :^)
     
  6. akindhobo

    akindhobo derp

    Location:
    Belize
    Steam:
    a_kind_hobo
    Squigly
    Eliza
    But why would you not bomber?
     
  7. guitalex2007

    guitalex2007 Well-Known Member

    Steam:
    guitalex2007
    PSN:
    guitalex2007
    XBL:
    guitalex2010
    Uh... Maybe you need to see it as...
    • Back dash that shuts down low throw setups, cancels into neutral jump and another air dash to avoid resets on landing
    • Any normal is an instant overhead from backdash xx air dash, allowing for dumb shit
     
  8. Cynical

    Cynical Sulphur and Mercury

    Steam:
    Changes constantly; search for "Cynical" and look for my avatar.
    Eliza
    Parasoul
    Cerebella
    "Instant overhead" with an additional 2 dashes worth of startup, on normals that are 18F in the first place... yeah, sounds great.
     
  9. guitalex2007

    guitalex2007 Well-Known Member

    Steam:
    guitalex2007
    PSN:
    guitalex2007
    XBL:
    guitalex2010
    IT'S AMAZING.

    And not all normals are 18f startup.

    Also WHY ARE THERE PEOPLE HERE WHO DON'T PLAY VALENTINE SPOUTING OPINIONS?
     
  10. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    this is why i generally shut up when talking about characters i don't play
     
    Midiman and Broseidon Rex like this.
  11. Cynical

    Cynical Sulphur and Mercury

    Steam:
    Changes constantly; search for "Cynical" and look for my avatar.
    Eliza
    Parasoul
    Cerebella
    Because I used to play her, and have spent about three weeks playing Eliza instead?

    I've spent more time with Val than any other character, even though I don't play her now.
     
  12. dekillsage

    dekillsage Gloomy EVO Champ 2014

    Double
    Fukua
    Cerebella
    *cracks whip*

    I play valentine
     
  13. guitalex2007

    guitalex2007 Well-Known Member

    Steam:
    guitalex2007
    PSN:
    guitalex2007
    XBL:
    guitalex2010
    That's nice.
     
  14. cloudKing211

    cloudKing211 King of White Puffs

    Location:
    New Jersey, United States
    Steam:
    akiraxion
    PSN:
    cloudKing211
    Valentine
    Unknown
    Double
    Can we talk about val is incredible...........oh wait, I knew that already
     
  15. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    but the SGC doesn't know that @cloudKing211 pls teach em the ways to soar with val with your j hp know how?
     
  16. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    You have proven yourself to not know what you're on about already and I didn't say anything, but this is egregious.
    "2 dashes worth of startup" Since when have dashes in SG had significant startup?
    "Overhead" doesn't require it to be j.HP.

    Val's j.LP is 7f. Her backdash requires 7f to go by before you can airdash. ALL airdashes allow you to act after 1f. Adding that up that's...what? Sorry, I can't quite hear you. Fifteen, is that what you said? A 15f overhead? I do believe that's faster than Filia!
    And if you want to do one that doesn't whiff up close on crouchers you can use j.LK, which makes the total 17f. That's still faster than Filia.
     
    Midiman likes this.
  17. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    Jump start = 4f
    Min IAD height = 5f
    j.LK = 7f

    Wouldn't that be a 16f overhead on Filia?
     
  18. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Steam:
    may_contain_peanuts
    Double
    Big Band
    Peacock
    "I can't put Double on my team because if I used Cilia Slide, I wouldn't be using Hornet Bomber, so I have to put Valentine on my team instead of Double." Is that pretty much your thought process here?
     
  19. cloudKing211

    cloudKing211 King of White Puffs

    Location:
    New Jersey, United States
    Steam:
    akiraxion
    PSN:
    cloudKing211
    Valentine
    Unknown
    Double
    Uh I actually like team Para/Val/Dubs now in beta. The s.mk val fix actually let's it function as lock down and the short hit stun on the final hit allows for a low throw if you aim for it
     
  20. Tomo009

    Tomo009 Well-Known Member

    Eliza
    Robo Fortune
    Beowulf
    So everyone plays Valentine now.

    Who were these people who thought she was bad again?
     
  21. guitalex2007

    guitalex2007 Well-Known Member

    Steam:
    guitalex2007
    PSN:
    guitalex2007
    XBL:
    guitalex2010
    You'll find them not using Valentine.
     
    DRF_15 likes this.
  22. cloudKing211

    cloudKing211 King of White Puffs

    Location:
    New Jersey, United States
    Steam:
    akiraxion
    PSN:
    cloudKing211
    Valentine
    Unknown
    Double
    But whether or not these player will do anything with her is the question. And are you actually thinking her beta damage is making it in to retail, because I main Val and even I know thats (probably?) not happening
     
  23. Tomo009

    Tomo009 Well-Known Member

    Eliza
    Robo Fortune
    Beowulf
    I have no idea if the damage will make it, the ability to improvise is what is really cool, though. I don't think she needs the damage, I'm playing her in beta at the moment because I just really really like how the new combos work, not really anything deeper than that.

    I didn't ever think she was bad, you can find evidence of me saying completely the opposite all over the place haha. I'm kinda surprised there is anyone who thinks/thought she is bad.
     
  24. Adeveis

    Adeveis PS3 Skullbats Host

    Location:
    Norcross, GA
    Steam:
    Adeveis
    PSN:
    Sabaku45dahaka
    Parasoul
    Squigly
    Big Band
    I main Val and I think she's pretty awesome. I don't mind her not doing 8k damage as long as I get to keep my corner to corner carry which it seems a couple people forget she can do.
     
  25. VIVIT_rv00

    VIVIT_rv00 Pillar assist dependant man

    Steam:
    VIVr / vivitrv00
    Valentine
    Parasoul
    New Bypass isn't just amazing because you get more damage in the beginning of the combo (and do note you're sacrificing corner carry for this). It's getting confirms off certain assist calls while you're not even near the assist, and getting an easy reliable confirm from any air-to-air hit, no matter how high.

    Honorable mentions to silly burst baits and stylish combos.
     
  26. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    someone tell me who was the mofo that said val is bad
     
  27. Adeveis

    Adeveis PS3 Skullbats Host

    Location:
    Norcross, GA
    Steam:
    Adeveis
    PSN:
    Sabaku45dahaka
    Parasoul
    Squigly
    Big Band
    Well a couple jap players believe she is and Duck said he agreed with them.
     
  28. sauce_fonda

    sauce_fonda Hi there.

    Location:
    Sacramento, California
    Steam:
    howdyimtravis
    PSN:
    sauce_fonda
    Eliza
    Parasoul
    I wouldn't necessarily call Valentine a bad character, I think she's quite amazing; key reason why she's leads my team. With that being said, I don't think Val has solid assists compared to the rest of the cast. Other than that, she's a solid character, especially with what I've seen with her recent changes in the beta.
     
  29. FinestFantasy13

    FinestFantasy13 Moderately Skilled Player

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio, United States
    Steam:
    SmokeMemesEveryday
    PSN:
    FinestFantasy13
    Ms. Fortune
    Fukua
    Big Band
    I don't necessarily think she's a bad character, you just have to find the right setups to bring out her real strengths. For example, I've developed a single combo using Valentine and Big Band that can, if performed to a T, can nearly remove half of an opponent's health (it requires 3 levels of Tension).
    s.LP (all three hits if possible) > c.LK or s.LK > s.MP > s.MK > c.HP > j.LP > j.MK > EKG Flatliner > Strike Up The Band
    If you can precisely nail each hit of this combo, it results in a fairly devastating amount of damage and sometimes 100+ hits.
     
    IsaVulpes likes this.
  30. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    CaioLugon
    PSN:
    O3366-2020O
    Ms. Fortune
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    She can actually do a lot more damage than that, the combo you posted is very basic and only has two chains with one on the ground and one in the air, it uses very little or your available undizzy and scales pretty badly early on.

    You see that little green bar that sometimes fills up below your health bar? That's called 'undizzy' or 'drama', and it exists in order to limit the length of your combo. It fills up as your attacks connect and form a combo under a specific parameter and with a certain limit, if you surpass that limit and start a chain after the bar is full the opponent will flash green and is allowed to burst and end your combo. An optimized combo will fill up that entire bar and can sometimes take 50% of the opponent's health even without using any supers. The game also has an Infinite Protection System (IPS) that prevents repetition in combos and has to be taken into consideration when making longer combos.

    Your combo also doesn't take into account a thing called 'damage scaling'. That means that, as your combo gets longer, the attacks will do less and less damage until it reaches a minimum of 20%. To optimize with that in mind you have to use attacks that do high damage and have as few hits as possible early in the combo, and after the 20% cap is reached you can go for attacks that have lots of hits before finishing the combo or try to reset the combo and start over with no damage scaling (but the undizzy stays there even after a reset!).

    For more information on combos or really anything about Skullgirls gameplay make sure to check the Beginner Resources Thread, it has a ton of stuff that can help you level up your game. :)
     
    mcpeanuts likes this.
  31. gllt

    gllt Dedicated

    Steam:
    gllt
    Valentine
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Off the top of my head, here's Duck's air bypass route that is p optimal and universal, IIRC, with that DHC tacked on.

    - cLK cMK1 cHP jHP HBypass jHK1 MBypass adc jMK2 jHP rejump jLP jHK2 HBypass adc jMPn sLP3 (sLK here would be finnicky IMO) sMPn cMK2 sHP HBypass EKG > Strike
    - 12111 dmg @ 1.0 ratio (2v2 test)

    and, on Filia...

    sLP1 (rest whiffs on her crouching, also, this hits mid, so she blocks it for free) sLK sMPa (scaling is awful now) sMKa (even worse) cHP jLP jMK2 EKG, then quite a delay to DHC to Strike Up The Band to even get it to hit Filia falling to the other side of the screen, and damage varies by as much as 500, easily.

    - sLP1 sLK sMPa sMKa cHP jLP jMK2 EKG delay Strike (fullscreen hit)
    - 6200~6500 dmg @ 1.0 ratio (2v2 test)

    Here's a video comparison for you @FinestFantasy13 of your combo vs a combo that is maximized for damage and has a proper starter.



    And..

    Short combos are ok! Until you can maximize on stuff later. You need to learn combos and strings that grow along with your skill level, execution wise. You're not expected to do MAX DAMAGE OPTIMAL COMBOS every time or right off the bat!
    But your combo isn't even beginner friendly, IMO, due to the weird DHC you can easily drop. Strike up the band is best when DHC'd into from the ground, if you can help it.
    By simplifying your combo..

    cLK cMK1 sHP HBypass EKG SSJ does 6681 damage @ 1.0 ratio (2v2 test)
    cLK cMK1 sHP HBypass EKG Strike does 9007 damage @ 1.0 ratio (2v2 test)

    See, by doing single, hard hitting moves, and not pumping up damage scaling, I can do a simpler combo than yours that does more damage, actually.
    The SSJ combo beats your strike combo, and is cheaper, and the strike combo here also beats your strike combo, by over 2k~ more damage.

    Good luck! Don't let the game's systems scare you off, they may look slightly intimidating at first, but they're very easy to understand, actually.
     
    Midiman likes this.

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