Would Headless Fortune Be "Too Good" With Her Old Headless Airdash back

Discussion in 'Ms. Fortune' started by FuLLBLeeD, Oct 16, 2014.

  1. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

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    Just curious what other Fortune players think. Given the other nerfs (Fiber Upper no longer invincible, longer head cooldown, much harder to combo into head off) I'm wondering if old airdash height would be something that would now be acceptable on the character while headless. Or at least a lower minimum airdash height.

    I don't think headless Fortune is bad, but when you look at her weaknesses as a character, she has bad air to air buttons and while headless basically doesn't have a reliable reversal anymore. That's fine. But her specialty as a character is good air to ground pressure and strong ground pressure, so given the other nerfs I don't think the minimum airdash height is necessary when she is giving up other things by taking off the head. Headless Fortune isn't as braindead as she used to be with the old head cooldown, and now gives up her reversal when she takes her head off. She also can't really combo into headless state as easily anymore. However, it feels on top of everything else headless Fortune may have been weakened a bit too much, and in many cases it seems like giving up Fiber isn't worth it when you can generate more effective pressure while head on (especially when you're backed up by assists which Fortune should be as primarily a point character).

    In addition, healdess Fortune carries a lot of inherent risk that I don't feel is currently justified by her current abilities. You're taking extra damage most of the time for being hit, and when you get double snapped you're not really generating back that much read life because they are hitting the head. I'm not at all saying that hitting the head for extra damage/making it inactive is bad for even a second because that's part of the game and her character. What I am saying is when you take off Fortune's head in the current game you're instantly assuming a ton of risk and with the loss of invincible Fiber Upper its hard to justify it a lot of the time. Invincible Fiber isn't coming back, and I'm not saying it should, but I think she should be a bit scarier than she is now in regards to pressure now that she assumes all that risk for less reward.

    I don't think Headless Fortune's current pressure is good enough to justify the risk involved with playing her.

    At the bare minimum it would be cool to see this as a beta experiment. Players that know this character better than I do could probably provide a better argument/counter argument for these claims.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2014
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  2. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

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    I'm all for any buffs to headless, I feel that headless fortune is pretty much only a gimmick at this point, 98% of the time you're better off head-on.
     
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  3. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

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    I just really want to be able to combo into headless without having to TK the command or spend meter.

    I've almost stopped playing headless entirely after the last batch of changes to her.
     
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  4. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    if this ever gets in. i might replay fortune more often.
     
  5. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

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    Maybe this'll help you? I'm terrible at making combos but I came across this months ago I just don't know what to do with it.



    from L fiber it goes delayed j.hp > adc > j.hk restand > cat spike

    timing varies from weights of course.
     
  6. Natezer

    Natezer Get Innocuous!

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    I ended in a reset instead of doing the super that would put them out of the corner.
     
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  7. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

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    That's news to me! thanks for sharing
     
  8. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

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    I support fortune buffs that arent dumb. Specifically to her headless game, she feels like she needs something.
     
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  9. Dolfy

    Dolfy not into old men Events Mod

    I didn't even realize that her headless airdash was different until a few weeks ago.

    And yeah, I would really like for them to be the same at least for a game feel standpoint.
     
  10. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    Am I the only one who feels more comfortable fighting headless?
    Also yes I'm in support of headless buffs, especially if it involves the air dash.
     
  11. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

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    fighting with headless or fighting against headless?
     
  12. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    I feel better fighting without the head on.
    Then again I suck so, whatever.
     
  13. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

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    So you are headless and not using the head? I'm afraid I don't understand.
     
  14. Natezer

    Natezer Get Innocuous!

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    I would love to have invincible fiber and the faster iad back. But what I really want is a way to put the head back on mid combo without using an assist. That would be kind of silly though.
     
  15. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    I like using Ms. Fortune in her headless state (while still using the head) more than using her with her head on.
    Pfft, words are fuckin' weird man.
     
  16. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

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    if you got an otg to spare you can cancel zoom and recall after zoom hits.

    edit: you gotta be really close though but don't forget mike added head cancels
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2014
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  17. Natezer

    Natezer Get Innocuous!

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    Yeah thats good for safely putting the head back on, but what I really want is to be able to continue the combo.
     
  18. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

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    you can if you still got a light you can use

    here's an example with something old I did



    sorry for the music.
     
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  19. Natezer

    Natezer Get Innocuous!

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    Oh okay, don't know why I didn't think of that. I'll have to experiment with it.
     
  20. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    That's pretty slick.
     
  21. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

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    As much as I really want headless buffs I can't help but feel I just haven't found the good part to the current headless form.

    That said:

    • I feel that a lot of headless' pressure isn't around anymore
    • I don't believe I should lose health and get cooldown on the head I have two penalties and that just doesn't feel right
    • I wish I could make the head inactive so that the opponent can't hit it
    • It would be cool if I could follow up from any hit of fiber so long as something hits and isn't blocked (but this might be dumb but these are just long shot things I'm saying anyhow)
    • Zoom > Sneeze on block would be neat for pressure if it was allowed again (I figured nom was the bigger problem but perhaps sneeze would also be too strong)
    • Zoom > Sneeze on hit chaining because when zoom hits and then you do sneeze the sneeze continues going forward rather than backwards where the zoom had sent the opponent. The reason I would like this is because it'd be really neat to save the otg and do tons of damage (although this might be too much)
    • Would be cool if one head attack was a low but again that'd be too much
    • I could honestly care less for invuln fiber I just really liked her practically fullscreen pressure. (not that she has lost that it's just a little harder to do now. That's not to say headless is bad it's more that she no longer feels fun to play. Now, her "broken" form might be a step too far but I think it's possible to find a balance between fun and not cheap like old headless was)

    So yeah I would take these with a grain of salt because I haven't fully learned how to use this headless fortune yet.

    Sorry if this seems really dumb but I figure with enough shots in the dark I'll hit something.
     
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  22. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    Hey keep it up Stuff, I have faith in you. Really though I need you to come up with more cool shit for me to try. Being able to make the head inactive would be cool, but I dunno if it's balanced. Having to hold s.HP to inactivate it might be a fair trade off. Hell if I know, I'm just throwing ideas out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2014
  23. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

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    Remember that you can still combo into head spike off a tiger kneed launcher. It's a really tight link though.

    Mike doesn't want you transitioning into headless for free, which is understandable. Still I can't help but feel that was more justified when headless Fortune was leaps and bounds better than head on. Now that she isn't, you can't transition easily and are transitioning into (arguably) the weaker version of the character.

    I don't want easier transitions into headless, I just want headless to be better to warrant how much harder it is to get there and how much risk you assume when you switch.

    I agree with @Stuff that headless is unexplored, but I don't think getting her old airdash back is asking a lot considering the way headless fortune works now versus how she worked before.

    I'd also like to add, I'd rather head on and headless Fortune play differently and give you different strengths/weaknesses depending on which version you were using, rather than one be "better" than the other (although one ultimately will be, its just how fighting games work). I just don't feel, given the risk headless Fortune carriers, that its justified in playing her in many cases. I don't think she's bad, but I think she's now a lot more trouble than she's worth. Its why you see more and more Fortune players play almost exclusively head on these days.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2014
  24. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

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    You'll be happy to know that gllt has picked up fortune (both headless and head-on) so look forward to his really cool stuff since he's a lot better at pressing buttons than I am. Watching him do things leads to learning cool resets most of the time.
     
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  25. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

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    We're not getting invincible fiber back, Mike made it clear on that when it got removed. Honestly I don't really think she should get it back either, but it does feel like she's overnerfed. Yeah she was pretty stupid, but all the nerfs pretty much hit her at once. Given the Fiber Upper and head cooldown nerfs, I don't think the airdash height requirement was also necessary. Its why I think it should come back at least as a beta experiment.

    Again, its harder to combo into headless, you no longer have an invincible reversal while headless(or a reversal at all really since trying to Fiber usually means you'll get counterhit), the head cooldown is longer now and is less viable against zoning characters, you take more damage and lose more by getting double snapped than any other character in the game...with all that the airdash height requirement on top of that seems like too much. She's sacrificing enough taking off the head already. There's enough checks in place that I feel like she can have something back.

    A lot of Fortune players aren't going to bother playing headless, because IAD j.LK or IAD j.HP are easier to land hits with and lead to better damage most of the time. Headless Fortune players have to work overtime for less reward and more risk now that its harder to generate pressure. I honestly wish it was the other way around.

    Again, I don't think headless Fortune is bad, and I enjoy playing her...but I remember talking with @Elda Taluda about this at EVO, and he was telling me he doesn't really see any reason to take the head off given the risk and lower damage output in general. I advocate players exploring this character more, because no one besides @KhaosMuffins ever really bothered to do so with headless, but I find it hard to disagree with him considering I can play head on and everything is just easier and I'm not assuming more risk.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2014
  26. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

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    Oh yes it's experiment time thanks Mike!
    "- Ms. Fortune's j.HP +1f hitstun. Cat Spike -1f startup. Do the math. <- that means it combos again.

    - Ms. Fortune can now do Headbutt/Zoom -> Sneeze on block. Sneeze now chooses direction of travel on the frame it starts moving upward, rather than at the beginning of the animation, to hopefully hit characters travelling over it more often."
     
  27. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

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    Would getting rid of the additional head lockout from projectiles be fair? She's already taking all that extra damage for messing up anyway.
     
  28. Grunt

    Grunt Burglar

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    This sounds amazing! Can't wait to try it.
     
  29. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

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    I would like her old airdash height to return as well, but I don't think she needs it. With her current headless airdash height she can still do IAD j.LK > j.MK with ease for a triple overhead, or even cancel one of the hits to fast-fall for a low or throw (though of course if she had a lower height requirement she could still do this).

    I honestly still think that headless Fortune is better than head-on Fortune (both are good!), it's just that not many people are really putting in enough effort in trying to learn headless or come up with new tech for it. Nobody really tries delaying headbutt or zoom in sandwich pressure to try to throw off the opponent's pushblock timing or create frametraps, headless slide is extremely underutilized, I hardly ever see other Fortunes going for mode transition combos (much less do them successfully in a match), etc. Though that's just my personal opinion and I haven't really played much in the past 4-5 months so....

    What would be cool is if headless Fortune regained the ability to followup on any number of Fiber hits since she lost hit invul on all versions of it. I can't really think of a way to argue for this, though, and it kind of is crazy to allow a followup on any number of hits from HK Fiber considering how much range it has. I just like to think of head-on Fortune as having the defensive options while headless Fortune is the hyper-aggressive character with poor defensive options.

    The problems that I see with headless Fortune are that she really doesn't have enough ways to position the head, and that projectiles do too good of a job locking down the head due to the cooldown change. After launching the head with st.HK, I feel like I should be able to hit the head again to alter where it falls with j.LK or j.LP to juggle it again or j.HK to spike it down at an angle (while losing its hitbox so it doesn't become a projectile that's hard to deal with). As it is now I just kinda have to watch the head fall and that's... well, boring. As for projectiles, I still think that they should send the head into a cooldown period, but it shouldn't be as long of a period as when a physical hit connects with the head. Peacock can make it nearly impossible for Fortune to move her head, and she's taking damage the whole time. The head does absorb ground bombs as a result, but Fortune's only option to deal with characters from a range is locked out while other characters still have a projectile to use (or a reflector in Cerebella's case).
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2014
  30. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

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    Oh I forgot about head mobility. Yeah she doesn't really move her head like carl or eddie can move their puppet/shadow. (holding the button and moving the shadow or puppet around) I think even litchi can do it better since that's more closer to what fortune kinda is
    Launching the head is cool except when another projectile hits it because then when it lands it's stuck in cooldown.

    Imagine if you could hit the head during a zoom but that'd be like super crazy.
     
  31. Natezer

    Natezer Get Innocuous!

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    What if you could do zoom in the air to move the head? Like 4hp 6hp and maybe even 2hp move it in the air in the respective direction. That might be too ridiculous tho.
     
  32. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

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    Followup on any number of hits for Fiber for headless Fortune would give her better combo and pressure options while still keeping the DP as the intended "not a reversal" in my opinion.

    And because of the j.HP hitstun increase I'm pretty sure my old combo works again! (except it sucks and is unoptimized and was designed to give you a sneeze reset at the end after feral):

     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2014
  33. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

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    don't forget that j.hp's properties also changed. it now puts the opponent below fortune so cat spike'll likely miss

    (and by this I mean our current j.hp is not the same as our old j.hp which pushed the opponent AWAY)

    That I'm I'm testing all the old combos as I write this

    So j.hp adc j.hp cat spike is no longer a thing unless you are at L fiber height.

    edit: almost anything that isn't raw j.hp or j.hp adc j.hp works.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2014
  34. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    j.MK also combos into Spike, btw. I got tired of waiting for someone to notice. :^)
     
  35. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

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    I think other players are afraid of using the beta. You guys should get on the beta, how else will I practice using these neat buffs?
     
  36. Grunt

    Grunt Burglar

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    I just got back gimme some time ;_;
     
  37. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

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    okay I guess

     
  38. Ego

    Ego Walkie Talkie Man

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    Why does nobody end fortune combos with nom anymore?
     
  39. gllt

    gllt Dedicated

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    I'm doing something like FuLLBLeeD's in terms of how it starts, sorta. Not really. Caio's is better!

     
  40. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

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    Mike, you're the best. <3

    The head goes flying away from you when Nom ends and goes on a lengthy cooldown. It's just not a good idea to end a combo with it.
     
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