Blocking Post Flash w/ undizzy

[GrunkleBarlowe]

Wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this since the change seems to have gotten little discussion.

My thoughts:

• Baiting supers seems to be a lot more deliberate. Every time I intend to bait a super, it ensures that I will actually be able to block it.
• SSJ is slightly less irritating to bait out
• Undizzy draining slower now (other beta change) also makes it more noticeable than it was before
• In my opinion it shouldn't only affect Level 1's.
  Spoiler

  but I also think that every super should be like this regardless of undizzy

Overall I like the change, it's a nice step in what I would personally envision for the game. It makes reversal supers a lot less irritating to bait out, but still makes supers a strong reversal option.

 

[IsaVulpes]

I don't really see how this change does anything desirable?

- On offence, baiting was never an issue.
Like, I don't see how it changes ANYTHING. You do a reset and have some 2 seconds prior to the reset to recognize baiting would be a good idea and just holding back the entire time. Even Launch into Jumpforward-Block (to bait out air supers) has something like a 30 frame window.
I can't remember a single time where I attempted to bait a reversal and still got hit (other than stuff like baiting Gregor and then getting crossed under by it, which is still going to happen)?!
The one instance where I could see this changing stuff at all would be Command Grab Supers, as ordinarily holding back/db to bait super still gets you grabbed; But I think all of them are X+0 anyway so hitstop doesn't matter (= again, no change) .. and if I'm wrong here, I DON'T think it is a good idea to have 360s postflash jumpable like that.

- You can now safely "attack while blocking" by virtue of assist calls.
Something like assistcall+jump/delayjump for a 50/50 was always strong, but on retail it is quite difficult to block properly against supers which will hit you no matter where you are (eg Dynamo); you have to press 9-hold4 and then right on the frame where you start crossing the opponent up, switch direction to 6 so you're able to block no matter the reversal timing (or time your assist meaty and be sure whether it's a crossup or not, which is not that simple a feat).
On Beta, instead you just do whatever and then during super flash have some 90f or however long it is to think about which side you are on, to hold the appropriate direction. It's a bit.. silly?

What does this do that is useful for anybody, and why?
For what it's worth, why should supers be a worse reversal than common special moves (can't "postflash block" my Updo)?
Supers already have the issue of "Can't mash during Blockstun due to giving PBGC" (and obviously that they cost a bar) which outbalances that they're faster (startup wise) and easier to mash than say a DP (KK Supers too now!).

~~~~~

The ONE granting thing I can see about Supers is that they are exceptionally dumb in neutral, since often times THERE you can't block, even if you explicitly want to.

Eg when I want to bait my opponent's DP via dashjump-block, I have something like 15f to bring the stick from upforward to back, which is certainly doable.
If I want to do the same thing against my opponent AAing me with Dynamo, I have SIX frames. It is quite easily possible for me to think "Okay, he's gonna mash the moment I jump, let me jump-block", do it, and still get hit because I didn't manage to move the stick back within the 6f window (which would never happen against a regular DP, as they just have much longer startup).
- Similarly when I just walk forward; I'm at midrange against a mashy Band, think he's gonna Brass soon, take a step forward and instantly return my stick to block. Against 20f+ startup Brass, this is a guaranteed punish. Against 2f startup SSJ, it is physically impossible to move the stick to block fast enough.

But if you think that this is an issue (random Supers at midrange are still shit - they are just annoying to play against; so I'm not exactly sure whether they need any touching), then this fix is entirely backwards (instead, Supers would have to be postflash-blockable-if-you-didn't-do-a-thing as long as the opponent DOESN'T have Undizzy).

~~~~~

TL;DR: I pretty much see 0 difference to retail with this change, except "You can now call assist while moving forwards, without being scared of Supers" - which I don't really think is something the game needed?

 

[GrunkleBarlowe]

The ONE granting thing I can see about Supers is that they are exceptionally dumb in neutral, since often times THERE you can't block, even if you explicitly want to.

Eg when I want to bait my opponent's DP via dashjump-block, I have something like 15f to bring the stick from upforward to back, which is certainly doable.
If I want to do the same thing against my opponent AAing me with Dynamo, I have SIX frames. It is quite easily possible for me to think "Okay, he's gonna mash the moment I jump, let me jump-block", do it, and still get hit because I didn't manage to move the stick back within the 6f window (which would never happen against a regular DP, as they just have much longer startup).
- Similarly when I just walk forward; I'm at midrange against a mashy Band, think he's gonna Brass soon, take a step forward and instantly return my stick to block. Against 20f+ startup Brass, this is a guaranteed punish. Against 2f startup SSJ, it is physically impossible to move the stick to block fast enough.

You just described the only thing that really frustrates me with supers in neutral.

- On offence, baiting was never an issue.
Like, I don't see how it changes ANYTHING. You do a reset and have some 2 seconds prior to the reset to recognize baiting would be a good idea and just holding back the entire time. Even Launch into Jumpforward-Block (to bait out air supers) has something like a 30 frame window.

I still run into it from time to time. Remember also that undizzy doesn't go down to zero after teching now, so baiting a wakeup super without this change would be as frustrating as baiting them in neutral for the most part. Even with the tech animation.

What does this do that is useful for anybody, and why?
For what it's worth, why should supers be a worse reversal than common special moves (can't "postflash block" my Updo)?
Supers already have the issue of "Can't mash during Blockstun due to giving PBGC" (and obviously that they cost a bar) which outbalances that they're faster (startup wise) and easier to mash than say a DP (KK Supers too now!).

Because supers with post flash blocking are still strong reversals worth a meter. They generally have better hitboxes, more damage, faster startup, and can be made safe with DHC's (some DP's you can make safe also). I also don't feel that meter is a scarce resource at all as you are able to adequately build it regardless of where in the game you are at.

 

[IsaVulpes]

Basically what this comes down to (in my eyes) is

Do you want to buff offence centered around kd into assistcall + left/right
For the gain of having an easier time baiting supers in cases where you had the necessary frames to ready yourself and switch stick direction to guard

I don't see this as a worthwhile change..

It doesn't touch supers where they are actually annoying (when trying to bait them in neutral) and nerfs them where they already are barely a problem (while buffing the dumbest offence in the game).

In general this mostly seems like a concession by Mike; trying to satisfy people who complain about mashed supers.. in a way that doesn't actually do anything.

E: Like, you say that this makes reversal supers less irritating to bait out
But does it really??
I can't even remember the last time I was trying to bait a reversal and didn't manage to; aside from doing one of the aforementioned assist+crossups - which barely count as baits in the first place..

 

[Jason]

Yeah I'm not really a fan of this change overall.

I mean its not game ruining but I don't see why its necessary. Hitstop has been nerfed like.. 3 or 4 times already since it was put in? Are people really STILL complaining about it? Really?

 

[GrunkleBarlowe]

I'm finding now that I honestly like this more for baiting a wakeup super after a tech more than anything. Mainly because without it I would be running into the issue Isavulpes pointed out in neutral where I'm trying to bait a super but can't seem to move my stick fast enough.

Straight up Mashing mid combo isn't really as much of a problem to me now since I have createda lot of resets where I have a moment to assess whether or not they'll be throwing out a super and can hold back during this timeframe. In short I've come up with more mash-proof tech which (as dekillsage wrote out earlier) is what everyone needs to do. As a community we have failed to make mashing a bad strategy.

In other words, I got gud with more PewPew and less QQ

But anyway back to the point, I still like this change because baiting out wakeup reversal supers from a knockdown is easier for me.