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How much can you learn thrashing AIs?

GrinningMan81

GrinningMan81

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Okay, so my internet connection sucks. Until this is changed, I'm mostly stuck practicing in Arcade mode. And the thing I'd like to know before I dive into the madness of the online world is how much experience running through Arcade and Story mode actually translates into facing off against real meat-brained humans. I currently set the difficulty to Nightmare exclusively, and when I'm playing characters/teams I'm familiar with, I rarely lose. But I don't actually know what that means in a real-world context. So, my questions to the more experienced players:
  • How smart are the AIs at Nightmare, compared to the average human player? Can I already claim I'm an above-average player for routinely obliterating them, or does that merely mean I no longer suck?
  • Are there any anti-AI habits I might have developed that I'll need to unlearn when facing real humans?
EDIT: So here's what I've learned so far, through the art of being made the absolute bitch of numerous other players.

  1. The AI sucks. You should be able to reach Marie (don't worry about beating her, not exactly many Marie players online) on Nightmare consistently before considering yourself up to the internet. Even then, you will get torn apart online the first few times around. Everyone here has said it, and I can confirm it. Prepare to suffer brutal humiliations; I recommend vodka to ease the pain.
  2. Playing against the AI leaves the impression there's nothing particularly bad about the corner. A few rounds with capable foes, and you'll start to think of the battlefield's corners with a fear usually reserved for communist gulags.
  3. Ever seen a combo reap half your HP? You will. It's not a bad idea to find a few of your own in the training room. Just remember to set the dummies to properly block, pushblock, and ground tech at the first opportunity so you don't mistake a bunch of moves for a combo.
  4. You can generally just low block against AIs. Don't get used to this -- one blink and your foe will be in the air and delivering their weapon of choice to your head.
  5. The AI is pretty block-happy, in my experience, and won't exploit the player leaving themselves open with a heavy attack. Humans will. Painfully.
 
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So before reading the rest of my post, know that I'm a pretty scrubby player myself. I consider myself a semi-beginner. I can do pretty well against beginner rooms but would often lose in intermediate rooms. To give you something concrete for comparison, I had a 4k BnB combo that I've since dumped for a ~7k BnB. That being said....

= Whenever I play Nightmare AI using my best team, I can usually win against the AI regardless of the opposing team composition, up to nightmare Marie (which I don't consider into the formula)

= The definition of above-average varies widely, depending on the player. I've gotten completely bodied by people who claim to be beginners, and I have completely wrecked people who claim they are intermediates. Personally, I would consider myself below-average. My advice would be to not call yourself above-average unless you are CONFIDENT that you are indeed above average. :)

= The human player will do MANY things that nightmare AI will not do. This is the human factor; you will run into people repeating the same moves over and over again, or people who will surprise you with things that seem to come from left field. And you will eventually run into that one player who will dominate you so completely that you end up going to forums like this to figure out how to get better.

= After playing a few dozen online matches, you will quickly find that there are indeed anti-AI habits you have developed (I know I did). However, it is very difficult to tell what these habits are until you actually fight online people, as they aren't the same for every player.

= I have run into a few beginner rooms in which the players are noticeably easier than Nightmare AI. However, these rooms are rare, and when I find those, I leave immediately.

= When you first start out, you can search for rooms based on your skill level. This may help you find people who are similarly skilled.

= Lastly, I wouldn't worry about the internet connection so much....especially if that is the only thing holding you back from enjoying the game. GGPO is quite good, and I've played decent matches with 150 ping before. I would suggest you give online matches a try and see for yourself. And most importantly, above all else:
DON'T BE AFRAID TO LOSE! <---- Very important! :)
 
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AI can't block properly, so it's got that going against it.
 
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AI is good for getting your hands accustomed to the controls and for practicing combos on a moving target, and very bad for making you think you can play fighting games when you really still can't

Edit - this sounds meaner than I meant it, but what I mean is it can be hard on your morale to go from total control of AI to getting beaten by a guy that does three moves.
 
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Thread should end at AI can't block properly. They don't even move like humans (not gonna use the word proper here) so you may as well hit the training lab and pick up more combos and resets and grind them into memory so you don't drop them when you touch real opponents.
 
I really wouldn't worry about the internet thing. I'm playing across the house on wireless from a 1Mbs loldsl connection and can still find good matches (I've played people at 225ms that were more stable than <100ms pings. Just try playing online and in lobbies, you're probably fine).

As far as things go I'm a "beginner" and can clear nightmare, so I wouldn't really say the AI means much in terms of online play. It does make a nice alternative to the training room for certain things, though. Just check out some lobbies and grind the online matches. The AI just will not show off the diversity (and level) of play that human games will.
 
I'm not shocked to find out the AIs don't hold a candle to even mediocre human players -- that's pretty much the rule for all fighting games. Either they suck overall or are some freakish combination of impossible reflexes and tactical imbecility. So I'm gonna take a share of beatings in the real world? Losing is Fun.
 
Ai is good for practice and filler time inbetween playing against real opponents. But if you only play ai... It will hurt you. Also... If you find any anti ai patterns... Of which there a alot... Don't use them... You are simply depriving yourself of a learning experience. The ai falls for fast resets all day cause it tries to attack the instant it comes out of hitstun...and gets counter hit EVERYTIME... Don't fall for the trap... Don't use those types of patterns.. Try to play the ai like you would a human. It won't be that easy though yes it isn't hard either. The ai in sde sg was the best ai to teach a player to learn that I've ever played... This new ai can be annoying though when it reacts to everything in a 15 frame window (its programmed to react in a 15-20 frame window iirc... So it can't super most normals on reaction)


But it's still super fast and better in situations that humans would not be... And it ALWAYS techs teachable throws. But is super free to command grabs and keepaway zoning etc etc.... So try your best to not use those moves abusively agains the ai... Use them at about the same frequency you would against a human.. Just don't be surprised at your 100% success rate.
 
The AI isn't great, they're more of a beginner learning tool so you can grip the fundamentals of blocking against jump-ins and dealing with Blockbuster spamming Doubles. Beyond that point they're just meatbags to beat up when no one else is online.
 
The good news is my internet is finally capable enough to let me play online. There is no bad news, although there would be if I minded getting the ever-loving shit beaten out of me with humbling frequency. I've seen a few rounds of jaw-dropping stupidity, but the overall online community is a lot sharper than the AI's glorified punching bags. I have been suffering pain. Good thing I've got a masochistic streak.

I'll be recording my notes for others entering the online game for the first time as a community service. A few now, though I still suck too much to be regarded as an authority of any breed.
  1. The AI sucks. If that's all you've been playing, you will get torn apart online. Everyone here has said it, and I can confirm it. Prepare to suffer brutal humiliations; I recommend vodka to ease the pain.
  2. Playing against the AI leaves the impression there's nothing particularly bad about the corner. A few rounds with capable foes, and you'll start to think of the battlefield's corners with a fear usually reserved for communist gulags.
  3. Ever seen a combo reap half your HP? You will. It's not a bad idea to find a few of your own in the training room. Just remember to set the dummies to properly block, pushblock, and ground tech so you don't mistake a bunch of moves for a combo.
  4. You can generally just low block against AIs. Don't get used to this -- one blink and your foe will be in the air and delivering their weapon of choice to your head.
  5. The AI is pretty block-happy, in my experience, and won't exploit the player leaving themselves open with a heavy attack. Humans will. Painfully.
There's probably more -- like I say, still working on the "stop sucking" part. But honestly, it might be a nice tool to explain to newbies what to expect, and hell, I really just like writing lists.
 
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Good post. Please keep adding notes as you see fit; this will help other newbies who come this way.

GrinningMan81 said:
Ever seen a combo reap half your HP? You will. It's not a bad idea to find a few of your own in the training room. Just remember to set the dummies to properly block and pushblock so you don't mistake a bunch of moves for a combo.
You should probably mention that the dummy should be set to ground tech at all times as well. Otherwise, a combo that works on the dummy won't work on a tech-savvy opponent. This is an oft-overlooked option in the menus.
 
I can throw out raw a Gregor Samson super from across the screen to hit confirm the opponent on the maximum difficulty sometimes so their blocking instincts is based on chance.

In any case the AI isn't very adaptive/flexible and are generally one-trick ponies. Double for example will always try to go for the Gun shot xx Swag Wagon if she has meter which to say the least is completely different playing style compared to online players that use Double. The AI is good though as dummies to build player confidence on using your BnB combos against them during live play. That way when you go online at the very least it won't be because of your lack of execution that you lose.
 
AI is only good for practicing hit-confirms into combos, which you can already do in Training mode via enabling random block (Though the Training mode environment is a bit more lax; you might have better results by practicing strings against the AI in matches).
 
I play a variety of fighting games and spending time in arcade mode helps refresh my memory concerning mechanics. I usually have one play through before hitting the lobbies.
 
if all you do is play the ai... you will get destroyed by humans... because they aren't ai.

but the same goes for training mode and if all you do is spend time in training mode id think that you would be even worse against people than if you had done nothing but play against the ai.

moral of the story: if your practice regimen uses lots of ai and training mode, make sure that you get LOTS of human experience as well. so that you can start to shape all that good muscle memory you made into great muscle memory.

its like lifting weights:

if all you do is eat a high carb diet (play arcade mode) then you will get fat (be bad against real players) but if you lift while eating high carb diets you will get much bigger than just lifting alone. if you t-mode/arcade mode while playing real players you will get better than if you just played real players.

how I tend to do it:

go to t-mode and figure out a bunch of theory fighter things such as assist + special move or assist + normal move synergy or anti pushblock strings with assists etc etc etc.

now go to arcade mode and use/develop/polish them to where I have moving muscle memory of how to use these things against a moving opponent, also I will discard any techniques that aren't as good as I thought they might be.

then I go and take it against actual people and keep what works and discard what doesn't. the hitconfirms and antipushblock strings tend to be universal and playing the ai keeps me from getting completely rusty when there are no people to play for long periods such as a week or more.


but you have to have actual human experience and playing partners to get better. ai and t-mode just help out the progression if you know what you are doing. though pc ai is ass, unfortunately.
 
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Not much I only use it to practice combos.
 
I think single player is important, especially initially.

I know when I started I had good execution in training, but I would speed up my presses when my opponent fought back meaning tons o combo drops. I used online play to learn to slow myself down, and it worked really well.

It is also a good metric. If you can't easily get to Marie on nightmare, online is going to be rough,
 
all you learn is bad habits

might be good for the initial hour or two if you have no idea how to play fighting games but it creates bad habits (e.g in SF4 you can focus attack the AI while they're waking up and they'll never jump it)

also the whole mind game aspect of the game is thrown out the window
 
ashxu said:
all you learn is bad habits

might be good for the initial hour or two if you have no idea how to play fighting games but it creates bad habits (e.g in SF4 you can focus attack the AI while they're waking up and they'll never jump it)

also the whole mind game aspect of the game is thrown out the window

I think the bad habits get knocked out of you quickly though. The harm is relatively minor.
 
I learned to hit confirm and perform combos consistently.
 
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