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Hitstop Poll

Hitstop?

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bsobotka

bsobotka

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Painwheel Peacock Parasoul
I know there was already a fuck hitstop thread, but I'm curious to see how many of you guys actually like this. If I could change the game in one way this would be it right now.
 
IMO, air supers should not have hitstop (or not enough hitstop to catch you if you're not blocking before the flash). That's just my opinion.

Other then that I think they're good for the game. Characters like Bella and Valentine now have valid reversal options because their reversal super can no longer be blocked on reaction and can't be counter-supered.

I'd like to see anybody block an updo on reaction, you can't, its impossible. So if you can't block a reversal updo on reaction, why should you be able to block a reversal Dynamo on reaction just because it has a super-pause? By the same measure, you can't react to an Updo anti-air by canceling your jump-in into Gregor, why should you be able to save yourself from an anti-air Dynamo by mashing gregor or air-scalples?

"But supers do so much more damage then a normal DP!" - Bullcrap, have you seen the amount of damage that Filia or Fortune can get from a successful DP? Its a lot more then what most characters get out of a reversal super, I can tell you that.
 
Jason said:
I'd like to see anybody block an updo on reaction, you can't, its impossible. So if you can't block a reversal updo on reaction, why should you be able to block a reversal Dynamo on reaction just because it has a super-pause? By the same measure, you can't react to an Updo anti-air by canceling your jump-in into Gregor, why should you be able to save yourself from an anti-air Dynamo by mashing gregor or air-scalples?
There's a reason DPs have a 623 input.

Too lazy for more atm
 
Jason said:
IMO, air supers should not have hitstop (or not enough hitstop to catch you if you're not blocking before the flash). That's just my opinion.

Other then that I think they're good for the game. Characters like Bella and Valentine now have valid reversal options because their reversal super can no longer be blocked on reaction and can't be counter-supered.

I'd like to see anybody block an updo on reaction, you can't, its impossible. So if you can't block a reversal updo on reaction, why should you be able to block a reversal Dynamo on reaction just because it has a super-pause? By the same measure, you can't react to an Updo anti-air by canceling your jump-in into Gregor, why should you be able to save yourself from an anti-air Dynamo by mashing gregor or air-scalples?

"But supers do so much more damage then a normal DP!" - Bullcrap, have you seen the amount of damage that Filia or Fortune can get from a successful DP? Its a lot more then what most characters get out of a reversal super, I can tell you that.


It's like, almost completely different:

Updo not blockable on reaction? Yes. But I can have an updo come out and then block at the last second and still block it... I can't dp that to many of the supers in the game.

Dashing:

Dashing used to be very safe because there was an autoguard nature to dashes (not runs), but now dashing is much less safe to things such as random supers... Also it really sucks to know that a random super is coming out and to dash forward to block it, only to have the super be unblockable.. So can't really offensively bait via dashing anymore either.

Supers seem to have more of a buffer window as well...I can get out reversal fenrir rather easily, but reversal updo is much harder for me. And I don't think I'm the only one when so many people will reversal fenrir over trying to reversal updo.

I totally wouldn't mind supers having hitstop if most of them weren't easily mashable... Like some kof style super inputs or something. As it is, supers make more sense to just lock out button inputs during them.


Also hitstop means that I get super punished during jump frames and backdashes, walking forward, dashing forward, double jumping forward etc etc.

I don't think the mechanic has been thoroughly fleshed out.

It was put in so that counter supers wouldn't work as well... But it's also made mash super sooooo good now. Beating all kinds of shit that mash super shouldnt.
 
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I can have an updo come out and then block at the last second and still block it... I can't dp that to many of the supers in the game

Supers do have pre-flash startup frames, they're usually a bit faster then the 8-13 frames for a DP but they are there, usually 4-8 frames. Its a bit shorter but they are spending meter, after all. So the whole "block at the last second" thing for a DP vs. a Super its a bit less likely for the super but it still happens.

I totally wouldn't mind supers having hitstop if most of them weren't easily mashable

Mashing QCF also works as a DP input, so there really isn't much difference between mashing a DP or mashing a Super in terms of people mashing during blockstrings or mashing during a combo expecting a reset.

At neutral, yeah a QCF is easier because you don't have to start from forward. Like Vulps said there's a reason DP's have the input that they do but if you're just mashing it like what most people are complaining about? It makes almost no difference.

And yes, its easier to QCF+PP as an anti-air then it is to do a DP motion, but again, supers cost meter. They SHOULD be better then a DP (if the super is meant to be used that way).
 
Also, one thing somebody brought up in IRC

Allow players to block during hitstop, but nothing else. You can't super or call assist or DP or whatever but if your character was in a state where they were able to block, you can block after the super flash.

I think this could be a good middle ground between the people who hate hitstop and the people who like it. Of course you'll still get caught by mashed Fenrir because its 0 frames after the flash.
 
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Jason said:
Also, one thing somebody brought up in IRC

Make allow players to block during hitstop, but nothing else. You can't super or call assist or DP or whatever but if your character was in a state where they were able to block, you can block after the super flash.

I think this could be a good middle ground between the people who hate hitstop and the people who like it. Of course you'll still get caught by mashed Fenrir because its 0 frames after the flash.

I suggested this waaaay back when the beta was first released.

Basically my suggestion was to only include the superflash hitstop if the opponent is in a state of histun of some kind, but have super flashes lock your opponent from doing a super, raw tag, or special for the period that it currently induces hitstop.

That way, they are still a viable reversal if the opponent actually hit a button, but don't lead into what is basically a dead character with the correct DHC or follow-up if you weren't blocking prior to the super flash.

Granted that people should probably be using more burst baits, the idea is just really dumb for how rewarding/safe a random super > dhc can be.
 
Why not just lock buttons instead of everything during the super flash? That way, you can still block but you can't reversal out in anyway way?

If no, I'll take hit stop over counter super all day; tired of successfully anti-airing with Bella only to see Filia/Valentine/Fortune/PW get away with air super and DHC into another super if they can't punish.
 
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I wish there was a "Feels Weird" option to vote for. Coming from pre-beta where supers were pretty dangerous to throw out, the current situations feels very different. It changed what your priorities need to be in order to play well, but I can't say whether it's any more or less fraudulent than it was.

On the one hand you have mashing supers that have ridiculous priority and can be made quite safe with dhcs. By itself that sounds pretty annoying, but it also encourages the use of meter for stuff other than optimal combo damage, and makes burst baits a far more relevant mixup type. On the other hand you could make the case that split second decisions during super flashes (when you could actually do things on reaction) were a legitimate test of skill, and also a reason to keep meters just in case you needed to counter-counter-counter-....etc. dhc.
 
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I've posted this before, but basically my view on it is that it was implemented to stop counter supers which is fucking stupid because think about what counter supers were. A counter super was a super to punish an unsafe super. Could you punish a safe super? No. I couldn't thresher an argus if they hitconfirmed into it. I could thresher an argus that was mashed out because I was close and they didn't confirm into and wasn't a safe move at all. I could punish a mashed gregor in the air with a very quick reaction and thresher them. Someone random unsafe gregored near me and I had cerebella? I could US them.
Basically counter supers were punishes. Someone messed up and did a bad super, so I had the reaction time to be able to counter that. I really don't understand why this is bad.
An example of just how bullshit hitstop is: I'm on peacock and they're dashing forward at me. Can I random super them? Yes. I know they will get frozen mid frame and get hit by a very unsafe super. I think that's the stupidest thing ever.
 
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Argus isn't postflash unblockable, so no you can't super them

And saying AA Dynamo is an 'unsafe super' is flat stupid
Should you be able to block DPs on reaction, because they were 'unsafe'? You're not making sense.
 
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Hitstop + Rollback is the absolute worst thing.
 
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bsobotka said:
I've posted this before, but basically my view on it is that it was implemented to stop counter supers which is fucking stupid because think about what counter supers were. A counter super was a super to punish an unsafe super. Could you punish a safe super?

If I scout Filia's jump-in and Dynamo on reaction, did I do an unsafe super? In SDE this would get me counter-supered.

If Double whiffs a s.HK and I try to whiff punish with Gregor, did I do an unsafe super? In SDE this would get me counter-supered.

Most of the time what counter-supers did was stop you from using your supers for ANYTHING that wasn't a combo. In SDE you can't anti-air with your supers, you can't whiff punish with them, you can't use them as a reversal.

Hitstop gives your Super Moves more utility then just combo damage.
 
In SDE when Val would do Air Dash J.HP on me I would try to punish with a super but just get super'd myself and combo'd to death. I'm happy you can't punish super with super(with the exception of a few) because now I can use one of my resources(my meter) to get someone off me and punish blind aggression without having to worry about being countered for free.
That being said I don't like the fact that if my opponent isn't blocking before the flash they get hit. If my opponent was doing a move, they should commit to that move. But being punished for not blocking while in front of someone? Not the best.
If possible make it so that if your opponent did a move or airdash before the flash they'll get punished, but if they didn't just let them block.
 
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I just hate how good random supers are. I'm okay with not being able to counter super, as long as I'm not getting hit by every super that I wasn't blocking way before it came out.
 
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Dash up random super is hella good now if you have a safe dhc.
 
bsobotka said:
I just hate how good random supers are. I'm okay with not being able to counter super, as long as I'm not getting hit by every super that I wasn't blocking way before it came out.

they are only unblockable from close range.

any one that is unblockable from close range is a tendency you can read and either bait or directly punish with burst bait tactics.

this sounds like a lot like a you have problems with one tactic that has direct counters. maybe practice on using the in game mechanics that make what incites a mashable super/close range super a bad idea.
 
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GirlyStyle said:
this sounds like a lot like a you have problems with one tactic that has direct counters. maybe practice on using the in game mechanics that make what incites a mashable super/close range super a bad idea.
No need to criticize me for saying that randoms supers have a much higher probability of hitting now. I don't think I'm playing the game wrong to the point where I need to go and practice "using the in game mechanics that make what incites a mashable super/close range super a bad idea." I'm just saying supers hit a lot of the times that they really feel like they shouldn't have now with the hitstop change. Thats it. I don't like the current way it works.
 
bsobotka said:
No need to criticize me for saying that randoms supers have a much higher probability of hitting now. I don't think I'm playing the game wrong to the point where I need to go and practice "using the in game mechanics that make what incites a mashable super/close range super a bad idea." I'm just saying supers hit a lot of the times that they really feel like they shouldn't have now with the hitstop change. Thats it. I don't like the current way it works.

hey man it just sounds like you are having problems with it if you are getting hit with by it enough to frustrate you, so i was offering incite on how you can use it against your opponent. but if you want to ignore that and would rather have the system changed then okay.


supers only hit when they should. if you got by a super you did something wrong. simple as that.

i just think people are ignoring how to use their opponents meter, resources, and options against them.
 
Hitstop super for moves that can be unblockable is literally not just anti normal or even anti special like they should be, they are ANTI EVERYTHING. Anti movement, anti normal, anti special. So yes they hit way more often than even in games where supers are only anti normal\special.
And sorry, no I don't like the anti everything aspect of post freeze unblockable supers.

And lo... Fucking L at bait them... Obvious much...the only bait that works against these 100% is don't be in range... Which is a weak ass bait. And the other is crouch or stand block ahead of time... A super defensive bait. Offensive baits like jump toward the opponent and block in midair have a tendency not to work because of the TAP UPFORWARD nature of anything offensive.

So yeah, fuck super freeze hitstop. It does more than what it should. Live withable? Sure. But then again I lived with sf4 for years... And that isn't the best of company to keep.
 
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what's wrong with a defensive bait? aren't all the ranges where they are unblockable a range where the person doing a super is making a prediction, not a reaction? if they are reacting to something, then its at such a range where (in most cases) the super would hit anyway.

all instances that i can think of where someone would do a "random" super at the range wher eits unblockable is where you are hitting them and they mash it out, where burst baits are a hard counter that leads to a punish.

im just honestly not getting by supers because of something stupid in the hitstop, me getting hit by supers outside of a combo has always been me not paying attention to my opponents resources/tendencies.

i still don't see how this isn't about reading a player.
 
I'm not talking about people mashing super in my combos, I'm specifically talking about things that happen all the time that give me a small advantage such as hit with a non confirmable air to air like painwheel jhk, then land first and make opponent block stuff/get mixed up. If I'm moving toward the airborn opponent as they recover and do a super... I get hit. If I'm sticking something out, I get hit, if I dash forward, I get hit, if I jump forward and don't have the joystick back in the block position before the super freeze, I get hit, if I jump away and the super freeze huts my prejump frames, I get hit. The only thing I can do at that point is block.

Weak shit.

And it also happens when I have someone in blockstun from a lockdown assist... did I dash up and they recovered and supered as my dash was coming out? I get hit. I would have blocked updo though.

But what if I anticipate the super and try to jump away and bait it? Hit on my way up.

Yeah this is fucking awesome... I have to cower in the face of my opponents mashing cause I have so go few options to actually beat it.

Sorry, since all of these things have happened to me in game against real players, there is nothing that you can say to me to make me think that the way this mechanic is currently implemented is good.

I don't mind getting random supered for doing a normal or special and having them get blown through. But I don't fucking like it when I'm trying to empty jump them or dash block them and still get hit. I don't think an inoptimal, scrubby strategy such as mash super at neutral when you suspect your opponent of doing "something" is good.
 
The fact I can "punish" people for daring to try and dash forward is stupid. It can be especially bad with double. What's that Parasoul, you wanna dash, too bad, here's a car for your troubles...from full screen.
 
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If there wasn't a method for dealing with super mashing besides baiting and blocking, then maybe I would agree with the calls to change it. BUT, SG has burst baiting, and opponent mashing super during a reset is exactly why it exists. Here's a question to everybody calling for it to be changed, are you applying burst baits to punish mashing in your game? Even if it's just blocking the burst?
 
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People tend to not like things that stop "going in" like zoning, runaway, command grabs, cat heads.

Not saying there aren't problems but "I can't rush in haphazardly" is a good thing.
 
View619 said:
If there wasn't a method for dealing with super mashing besides baiting and blocking, then maybe I would agree with the calls to change it. BUT, SG has burst baiting, and opponent mashing super during a reset is exactly why it exists. Here's a question to everybody calling for it to be changed, are you applying burst baits to punish mashing in your game? Even if it's just blocking the burst?
I use burst baits a lot. If I don't recognize the name of the person I'm against and its PC, a burst bait pretty much has a 95% chance of working. My issue with the freeze is the absurd number of frames I can't react for.
 
Mr. X said:
People tend to not like things that stop "going in" like zoning, runaway, command grabs, cat heads.

Not saying there aren't problems but "I can't rush in haphazardly" is a good thing.

Bad example. Cat heads is the definition of rush in haphazardly.
 
bsobotka said:
I just hate how good random supers are. I'm okay with not being able to counter super, as long as I'm not getting hit by every super that I wasn't blocking way before it came out.

I think in a game like this random supers have to be good, otherwise the game would be nothing but steamrolling folks- esp with all the long combos.

And yes, there is an option to beat it, blocking and punishing with a full unscaled combo.

In general, SG has a problem with folks being able to get in way too easily. The only char who has any sort of issues getting in to me is Bella, and she's got it easier than Hakumen.
 
Somebody please explain this "Hitstop" "rollback"/new mechanics. Im still on SDE lol
 
SonicFox5000 said:
Somebody please explain this "Hitstop" "rollback"/new mechanics. Im still on SDE lol
Basically it's harder to react to supers now, and some supers like Cerebella's Diamond Dynamo cannot be blocked unless you're holding back before the super flash even starts.

I think you'd like it.
 
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Alstein said:
I think in a game like this random supers have to be good, otherwise the game would be nothing but steamrolling folks- esp with all the long combos.

And yes, there is an option to beat it, blocking and punishing with a full unscaled combo.

In general, SG has a problem with folks being able to get in way too easily. The only char who has any sort of issues getting in to me is Bella, and she's got it easier than Hakumen.
1. Random supers, provided you have a safe DHC, can semi let you bypass the neutral game. Dash up diamond dynamo with bella is far better than it should be, or even worse, any invincible super DHC to someone like painwheel or double, who will get a full combo if you got hit, and a mixup if you blocked. Random supers, hell random anything doesn't add to a game.

2. Hakumen doesn't exactly have trouble with zoning since his own normals are long ranged, and he can destroy projectiles and form a barrier. She's got it easier than Tager.
 
rayplay said:
1. Random supers, provided you have a safe DHC, can semi let you bypass the neutral game. Dash up diamond dynamo with bella is far better than it should be, or even worse, any invincible super DHC to someone like painwheel or double, who will get a full combo if you got hit, and a mixup if you blocked. Random supers, hell random anything doesn't add to a game.

2. Hakumen doesn't exactly have trouble with zoning since his own normals are long ranged, and he can destroy projectiles and form a barrier. She's got it easier than Tager.

N-No....
 
rayplay said:
1. Random supers, provided you have a safe DHC, can semi let you bypass the neutral game. Dash up diamond dynamo with bella is far better than it should be, or even worse, any invincible super DHC to someone like painwheel or double, who will get a full combo if you got hit, and a mixup if you blocked. Random supers, hell random anything doesn't add to a game.

2. Hakumen doesn't exactly have trouble with zoning since his own normals are long ranged, and he can destroy projectiles and form a barrier. She's got it easier than Tager.


you don't start with two meters so you ain't bypassin nothin.
i can't really say i have ever seen dash up dynamo prominently used either

win neutral and snap in their safe DHC if you are really worried about it.
completely messes with their synergy.


Also people are hella misusing the word random yo.


If this many people are having problems with hitstop, then maybe instead of a "is hitstop wrong or right" thread we should make it more constructive like a "how to deal with hitstop tactics". One way or the other it is currently in the game and as a few players here have shown, their are ways of dealing with it

Again I think its more about reading a player then it is dealing with a mechanic
 
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If you could block supers during the super freeze from point blank, it makes supers exactly as good as dedicated counter moves with long recovery time, and we all know how great they are in fighting games.

As far as I can tell, if your opponent's not blocking and you throw out an attack, then they get hit by it because you made a correct decision at neutral game. But suddenly, if it costs meter, and has super freeze, it's suddenly bad that doing an attack at close range while your opponent isn't blocking gets hit?

If you're getting randomed out by mashed super from resets, burst bait. If you're losing to super in the neutral game, take note of the situations your opponent likes to super in and block + assist in those situations. If they don't super then your assist locks them down letting you go in, if they super then your assist eats some red health and you get to punish them with a full combo.
 
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mcpeanuts said:
Basically it's harder to react to supers now, and some supers like Cerebella's Diamond Dynamo cannot be blocked unless you're holding back before the super flash even starts.

I think you'd like it.

It's like everything's 720s (360 in this game) now!
 
DHC'ing safely still costs an extra bar- 2 bars is cheap but it isn't free, and not every char can do it.

It's not hard to bait a super- and not all "random" supers are randoms- sometimes it's a read.
 
Lol at terrible arguments being passed off as counters. Because yo, since it has a counter, it's auto a valid tactic and not something that stupid makes better.
THIS JUST IN!

Everything has a counter and therefor everything that has ever been in a fighting game should be included. Also infintes, being counterable by not getting hit, are totally fair since everyone has access to them.

Like, seriously, the fact that something has a counter doesn't make it auto a good choice to be in a game.

So because it can be read makes it valid? Say what.... Ok. No. Everything can be read. Being able to read something doesn't make that tactic valid.
 
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Okay, real talk?

Hitstop is there because the super flash animation makes supers more reactable than they should be.

Let's take Gregor. In SDE, it had 4+4 startup-- 4 frames pre-flash and 4 frames post-flash. Realistically, you shouldn't be able to stuff a move 4 frames in on reaction. If Updo had a super flash, people would make a lot of the same incredibly silly relative to our perspective statements that they do about supers.

The super flash is a historic feature as is the hitstop that accompanies the flash. The addition of super flash hitstop in MDE was an attempt to more accurately replicate the mechanics of previous games. In context, SFH is there to simulate the inability to react to a move that pauses the game for dramatic effect. The super flash effect in prior games (ST excluded, which had random reversal windows and no hitstop) was there to emulate one's inability to react to the same move if the flash didn't exist. In other words, if EKG had no super flash (and no hitstop), it would be just as unblockable as it is with the hitstop change (if not moreso, given the average person's 20f reaction speed). I'm not saying that EKG's inability to be blocked within 4 character widths isn't INCREDIBLY DUMB and worth changing; I'm saying there's a logical precedent for it.

As far as reversals go, if the opponent is mashing super, this has already been addressed. Skullgirls has the most insanely powerful anti-mashing mechanism I've ever seen in a game in its burst baits. I'm not even embellishing. If you know your opponent is hitting buttons, you can absolutely 100% guarantee that you can get a 100% safe, 100% unblockable reset that also floors drama. It's not even an option select. It's mandatory. If your opponent is mashing on wakeup, then you would have been hit by a wakeup DP in the same situation, and you should have respected the option. Blocking is a cool thing to do.

The unintended side-effects of SFH (namely, unblockable supers at certain ranges) can be fixed or dealt with*, and the intended side-effects are worthwhile. Either a build of the game needs to go live where there is neither super flash nor hitstop to get people to appreciate my points (try reversaling against Gregor when you only have 8 actual frames to react instead of 30), or we should treat limited-ammo moves with invincible startup with the predictable respect they deserve.

*I'd be fine with EKG being unblockable only within the range of Val's other moves of similar speed, as she's effectively jabbing from 4 character widths away. The same goes for all "unblockable" supers-- you couldn't block a jab on reaction, so Gregor being unblockable within jab range is totally cool.
 
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