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The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

On the off chance a dev might reply to this, I want to ask what we should expect regarding Umbrella's assists. Are there gonna be changes to improve them next beta cycle? Atm almost all of them have large issues that make them not super desirable, which is still particularly disappointing since she had great assist variety during her beta.

And if you happen to respond will we ever see a bit of old Wishmaker's glory again?
 
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I'd like to suggest that there could be a hitbox rework on Robo 2MK. Robo is in a great place balance-wise (beam assist discussion elsewhere, not this post), however this move is perhaps too good.

Proposition: Adjust the hitbox to be lower to the ground ala L Buer.
SG_rfo_cmk_hb.png
pw.png

The main reason for this is how many times it wins as an anti-air, like Guile sweep AA before it. This is impactful on balance for two reasons:

1. There are situations where a Robo player loses their battery point (Fortune, Peacock,etc) and the opponent is looking out for dash 5HP+ delay assist call. To beat this, they will try to call assist and jump forward with a button. However, Robo will AA with 2MK, which will also hit the assist character. Because of level 3 Cannon's volatility, Robo will usually delete at least 1.5 characters. This goes from disadvantage state to a huge winning position for Robo. (Personal opinion) It's a minute factor that makes the Robo shell, and certain elite shells, that much stronger.

2. Robo has 2LP, 5HP(+assist), and L Danger as functional and strong anti-airs. This scenario does not have to exist because she is lacking in coverage.



Drawbacks:
Yes, this may hurt Happy Birthday combos on a Small/Band situation. [5MP] vacuum into 5MK for some reason isn't always consistent. Personally, I think because cannon is such a strong super in this case, corner carry combos with 2MK can afford to get hit. I'm sure it may make air throw combos slightly more difficult if you don't properly dash.


Compensation for nerf:
Bast (EU Solo Robo) has suggested making sure 5HP mine on low crouching+Band gets fixed so Band doesn't eat the first hit and leaves the point free. Personally, I think 5HP gives enough time to confirm for solo Robo to L Danger/ H Danger cannon. However, it seems fair to patch up one Happy Birthday scenario while nerfing another.


Additional note: I worry about adding hurtboxes higher on 2MK because Robo wins on most trades (sweep kd), but that could also be a viable option. Again, Robo Fortune is in a strong place right now. Not looking to harm her, just tweak a volatile situation.
 
Why is an option robo has to choose volatile exactly? As far as I'm concerned that's the same as anyone opting to jab instead of DPing on wake up. Secondly, for upforward specifically robo would have to press 2MK and know 9 frames ahead of time (or how ever long it takes to hit someone out of their jump arc with a 13f normal) to do press 2MK and beat your up forward. Upforward in this game is strong enough imo.

Thirdly, I can't help but feel this is more of an issue of how jumping hurtboxes vary character to character more than 2MK's fault.

Source

Some of those hurtboxes look like they'd get away just fine unless we're talking jump squats, but again that means you're getting clipped at exactly those 4f of pre jump and I don't see why that's Robo's fault, seems like a pretty precise thing to land.

Like how's this any different than any other character picking a different option into hbd situation etc. 'cause I fail to see the issue.

and just another thing, if that makes robo's defense and ability to clap back too good why not just air reset the character with no real defense up there to avoid that in the first place? Maybe I'm reading the situation wrong and it's an offensive play? But even then I don't feel like that's an incredibly strong option either.

Also another other thing, I feel like a compensation like that is kind of weak considering that's a game wide problem with big band in this game period, seems like a flaccid proposal for something that should just be overall fixed.

Idk, maybe I just don't really grasp the situation so more explanation would be neat
 
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The problem is that in neutral RF has a button that does way too much without a lot of thinking.

I know that sounds very SG like but that's the kinda nonsense I hate in this game. Due to the active window it functionally requires no timing, it moves for you so the spacing requirement isn't that big either, it beats armour, it beats dashing and if you have assist it will even "beat" blocking. It does not need to beat jumping as often as it does.

The natural response to seeing someone sweep on the ground is to jump over it and hit them. That sort of move doesn't need to hit people with any degree of reliability if they are in the air, especially since it's the only true sweep in the game that gives a full combo.

It makes RF play look scrubby instead of making thoughtful decisions at mid range.

Oh also if it can stop hitting Big Band crossup just on his jumping hurtbox that'd be great.
Maybe a bit of an extreme example but the amount of times I've gotten "mixed up" while jumping and the RF hitting 2MK is nuts https://streamable.com/nzupna
 
So I'm seeing a lot of why it's good on paper but I can say that about literally any normal SG has. Some more footage of these "volitile" situations would help me understand. Also if that hitbox was lowered Filia still might get hit by the sweep, that's more of an issue with Filia's hurtboxes if anything.

'cause all I'm seeing is pressing a button and it working, I don't see anything wrong with that.

Like why is that "Scrubby" etc I just don't really understand your perspective other than "this button is dumb and here is exclusively the times it works and that's why it's dumb".

Jabs are really stupid in neutral 'cause they beat iads and are plus on hit and block and that means no one ever has to block overhead should those get nerfed too?

I really need help understanding your perspective.

edit: ultimately though I don't think I can agree, personally I think it's fine as is.
 
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Curious when will talk about the global patch happen more specifically & how it'll be formatted. There's been a lot of feedback over the past 2 years on various things people want for the cast & I can't imagine all of it has been noted along with shifting opinions. Not even including discord. There've been some great ideas & threads. I know ultimately devs have last say but definitely would like more liberal playstyles using core character mechanics along with making some supers more interesting or utilitarian like recent DLC.

Personally hoping there's just a survey and everyone can anonymously list what theyd like as public upvoting/downvoting had a scorched earth vibe. Additionally can't say enough how many people who've been part of the community for a long time either refuse to join in or very rarely because of it. Seems like it's helped a ton w/strive & giving players what they want collectively would be nice for a change. Plus lets people be truthful rather than trying to tone down or not speak an idea for fear of judgement. im sure someone will say 'it's a lot of work' but scouring forums 24/7 or looking through post after post seems way more intensive. Noticed quite a few other fgs been using surveys a lot more too.

personal comment; if that is a thing, hope questioning's more focused on what players want rather than what they dont like. Convos about nerfing are pretty cyclical at this point and id wager a pretty penny almost no one would care as much about certain things as long as their mains/other characters got fun/engaging tools to deal with the usual stuff.

Anyway that's mainly it I guess. There's been so many positive changes for games & a new generation is coming. dlc is great tho definitely needs some tweaking as well, but what keeps/brings players back are engaging patches. No getting around it. to an extent there will always be someone playing because it's familiar, mixmasters & not very graphically intensive, but i can only imagine how the playerbase will be after more than a handful of new FGs drop soon. Past month's already seen a more steep drop than usual. sf6 is almost here, mk12 reveal in a day or so, gran blue FV at some point, Tekken 8, Strive s3, new tenkaichi, not to mention project L later...that's just a few. Would be nice to have something big to play with again.
 
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Since Balance Patch is coming around the corner, figure I put in my "takes" for changes I would want for Beowulf:

Beo 5HP (Chair on): Suggesting active frames to go from 1f to possibly 2-3f for consistency or to matchup more with some of the other cast members in the game. Example such as Para 5HP being active for 3f.

Beo Chair Recall (Ex Take a Seat): Suggesting to possibly keep hitbox while Beo gets hit as it does cost all 3 Hype during chair recall as some of the other cast members do keep their projectile even while they get it. If not, then possible for chair recall to go from 3 hype to possibly 2 hype cost while keeping same properties as is. Understandably it is +1 on block but it does vary on spacing between the Chair, Beo, and the opponent so take with a grain of salt.

Beo Snapback (Chairless): Wanting to possibly have Beo be able to combo the opponent's assist while chairless for as it stands, when Beo's performs a snapback off grab while opponent's assist is still on-screen, Beo is unable to follow-up after the snap on the assist. Currently, Beo can only perform a "Happy Birthday" if he has chair on and if he has hype while performing the snapback from Grab Stance.
Chairless Snapback Example

Beo Chair Toss Assist: Possible to adjust the chair cooldown times from Beo's Chair Toss assist.

Beo 2HP Assist: Not sure how possible it would be to have Beo be able to perform 2HP assist as Chairless only without having to setup Beo for it. Would be interesting to see if Beo can do chairless 2HP assist without having to setup for it as point.



This is all I can suggest at the time being. I think it's just more QoL changes for Beo rather than buffing him. I think at this moment, he only gets better if the rest of the cast gets worst in the upcoming patch. Just some food for thought and again wanting to put some suggestions before the balance changes start coming to Beta. I'm ready for the downvotes on this cause it is Beo and nobody likes him :^)

Edit: forgot to also mention other possible suggestion of removing Beo’s Chip from normals when chairless. Think removing the chip damage from normals would be beneficial for him. If not, maybe replace with taking additional damage when chairless and not taking the additional chip damage from blocking normals from the cast members. (Example: Street Fighter Vega (Claw) taking more damage when mask is removed).
 
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The only balance I want other than dahlia reload and bullet changes is:

1. Peacock projectiles disappear on hit
2. Lenny -> 2 meter

That's it.
 
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Might be unreasonable to ask but I personally would like to see some Annie changes, mainly to how her install works. Never really been a fan of how it drains meter and iirc people weren't really a fan of Sekmet draining meter every time Eliza entered that mode so surprised its even still a thing to begin with. Maybe it could funtion similar to how it does in mobile but tbh I'm just spit balling so maybe someone could come up with better suggestions
 
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ruby_chan said:
Beo Chair Toss Assist: Possible to adjust the chair cooldown times from Beo's Chair Toss assist.
Would like to see Beo having to come back and pick the chair back just like MF has to be called again to pick up her head.

Edit: Just a little reminder that buffs are buffs and QoL most of the time seem to be straight up buffs lol
 
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I think something neat for Beowulf to have would be a c.LKLK. It would be him using his other leg to kick as well just like he does for his chair dance but only twice. If he's meant to have a hard time getting in in the first place, then this would help him stay in once he gets the chance. It would allow him more options for staggering, which would increase his potential in opening people up on block as well as allowing us to make his block strings a bit trickier to "successfully" pushblock.
 
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i block ice shot. i tell myself its okay, big band is a good character. this is still winnable. i block ice shot. maybe its a bad scenario, but there's still a chance that i can outplay my opponent. i block ice shot. i begin sweating. things are not looking good for me. perhaps big band isn't as good as i thought he was. i block ice shot. i try to parry, but nothing changes. the next bullet is already in my vision. i am beginning to lose hope. i block ice shot. i am starting to see red. i am running out of options. there has to be something i can do. i block ice shot. if i take any more chip damage it'll be over. i feel cold. black dahlia reloads. i feel the chill spread throughout my bones. i already know its over. i mash ssj. finally, i feel free. i am hit by ice shot. as i watch my final character perish, the consequences of my decision weigh heavily on me. probably just a skill issue though!

(smart idea making ice a multihit chip meter printer there!)
 
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Why can you Alpha Counter on Blue Burst and why can you DHC on whiff? Why am I being punished for avoiding these?
 
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Wuz good?

My take for Beo changes are mainly just QoL stuff for now;

1. Chair s.HP having more than one active frame,
2. Chair dance being invul.
3. Headless not tanking Blitzer hits or OTG c.MK for grab stance.
4. Beo and Eliza not having a 1F link into c.MP after headbutt...please.
5. Lenient EX finisher inputs and adding buffers to grab stance to make 4 not so hard to do.

4 and 5 are actually really annoying to deal with.

I'll maybe post more stuff in the future but these are the one's that are on the top of my head.
 
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I'd really like some qol for Valentine.
Make her sLK a low, 2MP could have a lower hurtbox, remove the bypass downside of not having its hitbox not spawn and make Counter venom DHC use the currently loaded Vial level instead of forcing Lvl 1... after all, I had to load those before hand.
 
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Since a balance cycle is coming up soon I’d like to give my two cents on some ways fukua could get buffed. As of right now she has three major problems. Her pre hit is pretty bad, her damage is below average, and health drain is a thing. Imo the best way to address all three things is to buff clones. It’s a big part of what defines the character so why not make it good? Removing health drain, slightly buffing clone damage, and buffing the range of clone would fix all three imo. I think all the clones should have standardized 75% damage scaling which would be a 5% buff for L and H clones. I also think they should all get somewhere between 50 - 100 more damage. In terms of clone range buffs they should all go two units further. It would put L clone just short of fullscreen, M clone at 80% of the screen, and H just under that. This is what it currently is.

This sounds like it would be od, but clones give you awful scaling, are very visible, and easily contestable even after release. They also vanish the second you make fukua block or hit her which means it can’t be effectively used on defense the way item drop can. The most important thing it would do is make her pre hit better because she could now hold a clone after pushblock and push up with an assist and actually mix with high/low or left/right. It would also allow her to get airthrow pick ups for a decent range away from the clone. The buffs I mentioned above would be really nice, but what she absolutely desperately needs is for health drain to go. Clones aren’t a strong enough tool to warrant losing one of the most important resources in the game especially in such an optimized meta.

Some quality of life stuff that would be nice to have is Fukua level three having more than one active frame, moving the hitbox of 2lp down slightly or adding an extra lower hitbox to make it a better otg button, and make air dart hitstun consistent.

Some wack fukua stuff I think would be cool to have. Keeping health drain and adding something like clone meter steal to warrant the health drain. What if H drill assist had its point ivul??? There aren’t any frames where the active and invul frames overlap so wouldn’t it be a little hype for fukua to finally have an above average assist? This isn’t that wack but can clones not advance the stage on airthrow pickups? Fukua already has piss poor damage in general and even worse without otg so it doesn’t really make sense for her to get shot with a stage 5 pickup. She also set the clone up previously so surely she should get some sort of reward? Fortune already does this ontop of doing all the other stuff she does.

Also three random general balance changes. Can double get 2lpx2 to help bait out and deal with dp assists so she doesn’t get smoked by them on her pressure. Can item drop disappear on trade? Like when its already falling and I hit her, it should just disappear. There is no reason why her one reactionary tool is so insanely uncontestable. Bombs should absolutely stay on hit though. Ice shot should have less hitstun depending on which hit I get hit by. The first should give the full hitsun and it should go down from there.

Tldr: buff fukua clones range and damage and remove health drain
 
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i block ice shot. i tell myself its okay, big band is a good character. this is still winnable. i block ice shot. maybe its a bad scenario, but there's still a chance that i can outplay my opponent. i block ice shot. i begin sweating. things are not looking good for me. perhaps big band isn't as good as i thought he was. i block ice shot. i try to parry, but nothing changes. the next bullet is already in my vision. i am beginning to lose hope. i block ice shot. i am starting to see red. i am running out of options. there has to be something i can do. i block ice shot. if i take any more chip damage it'll be over. i feel cold. black dahlia reloads. i feel the chill spread throughout my bones. i already know its over. i mash ssj. finally, i feel free. i am hit by ice shot. as i watch my final character perish, the consequences of my decision weigh heavily on me. probably just a skill issue though!
 
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Vending said:
i block ice shot. i tell myself its okay, big band is a good character. this is still winnable. i block ice shot. maybe its a bad scenario, but there's still a chance that i can outplay my opponent. i block ice shot. i begin sweating. things are not looking good for me. perhaps big band isn't as good as i thought he was. i block ice shot. i try to parry, but nothing changes. the next bullet is already in my vision. i am beginning to lose hope. i block ice shot. i am starting to see red. i am running out of options. there has to be something i can do. i block ice shot. if i take any more chip damage it'll be over. i feel cold. black dahlia reloads. i feel the chill spread throughout my bones. i already know its over. i mash ssj. finally, i feel free. i am hit by ice shot. as i watch my final character perish, the consequences of my decision weigh heavily on me. probably just a skill issue though!
Doctor says: "Treatment is simple. Big Band player Vending is in town tonight. Go and see him. He will give you tips."
 
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nope.avi said:
i block ice shot. i tell myself its okay, big band is a good character. this is still winnable. i block ice shot. maybe its a bad scenario, but there's still a chance that i can outplay my opponent. i block ice shot. i begin sweating. things are not looking good for me. perhaps big band isn't as good as i thought he was. i block ice shot. i try to parry, but nothing changes. the next bullet is already in my vision. i am beginning to lose hope. i block ice shot. i am starting to see red. i am running out of options. there has to be something i can do. i block ice shot. if i take any more chip damage it'll be over. i feel cold. black dahlia reloads. i feel the chill spread throughout my bones. i already know its over. i mash ssj. finally, i feel free. i am hit by ice shot. as i watch my final character perish, the consequences of my decision weigh heavily on me. probably just a skill issue though!

(smart idea making ice a multihit chip meter printer there!)

The last part of this message more or less sums up how I feel about ice shot rn, however I want to preface this by saying I'm not calling for a nerf or buff for any character in this post, I want to discuss ice shot from a perspective of who/what it affects - I play beo/big band to disclaim so there's some bias, however I try to avoid it as much as possible!

I'll get to the point - why does ice shot have the sweep property? It's already a three hit move with high reward on block/hit, and it's been shown that Dahlia can build a lot of meter during ice shot zoning with an assist like H beam to get her close to another reload super to restart the zoning, but the fact that it's also a sweep feels... egregious? This is why Band is in a very bad spot in the corner against ice shot, no other reason, if ice shot didn't have the sweep property, you'd be able to use any of his armoured options to respond, such as H brass / H train / SSJ. I do feel like level 3 and level 5 super are potentially answers to ice shot zoning, especially since dahlia's projectiles disappear on hit.

Should ice shot get nerfed? From what I'm seeing with the memes I'm guessing it's already going to happen. However I feel like I'm not to say, and generally I avoid giving my opinion on balance changes - this was just a special case where I do feel like the sweep property on ice shot is being overlooked - at the very least, I would ask for some discussion on this in particular.
 
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05mario said:
Since a balance cycle is coming up soon I’d like to give my two cents on some ways fukua could get buffed. As of right now she has three major problems. Her pre hit is pretty bad, her damage is below average, and health drain is a thing. Imo the best way to address all three things is to buff clones. It’s a big part of what defines the character so why not make it good? Removing health drain, slightly buffing clone damage, and buffing the range of clone would fix all three imo. I think all the clones should have standardized 75% damage scaling which would be a 5% buff for L and H clones. I also think they should all get somewhere between 50 - 100 more damage. In terms of clone range buffs they should all go two units further. It would put L clone just short of fullscreen, M clone at 80% of the screen, and H just under that. This is what it currently is.

This sounds like it would be od, but clones give you awful scaling, are very visible, and easily contestable even after release. They also vanish the second you make fukua block or hit her which means it can’t be effectively used on defense the way item drop can. The most important thing it would do is make her pre hit better because she could now hold a clone after pushblock and push up with an assist and actually mix with high/low or left/right. It would also allow her to get airthrow pick ups for a decent range away from the clone. The buffs I mentioned above would be really nice, but what she absolutely desperately needs is for health drain to go. Clones aren’t a strong enough tool to warrant losing one of the most important resources in the game especially in such an optimized meta.

Some quality of life stuff that would be nice to have is Fukua level three having more than one active frame, moving the hitbox of 2lp down slightly or adding an extra lower hitbox to make it a better otg button, and make air dart hitstun consistent.

Some wack fukua stuff I think would be cool to have. Keeping health drain and adding something like clone meter steal to warrant the health drain. What if H drill assist had its point ivul??? There aren’t any frames where the active and invul frames overlap so wouldn’t it be a little hype for fukua to finally have an above average assist? This isn’t that wack but can clones not advance the stage on airthrow pickups? Fukua already has piss poor damage in general and even worse without otg so it doesn’t really make sense for her to get shot with a stage 5 pickup. She also set the clone up previously so surely she should get some sort of reward? Fortune already does this ontop of doing all the other stuff she does.

Also three random general balance changes. Can double get 2lpx2 to help bait out and deal with dp assists so she doesn’t get smoked by them on her pressure. Can item drop disappear on trade? Like when its already falling and I hit her, it should just disappear. There is no reason why her one reactionary tool is so insanely uncontestable. Bombs should absolutely stay on hit though. Ice shot should have less hitstun depending on which hit I get hit by. The first should give the full hitsun and it should go down from there.

Tldr: buff fukua clones range and damage and remove health drain
I'd personally like to add to this if you don't mind. One change that I'd personally like to see for Fukua would be her clone assists. I think being able to hold them similar to how you would when shes on point for set-ups / mix-ups would be a neat idea since currently they just function as normal projectiles with special properties. While not exactly the same, Peacocks fully charged item drop assist does something similar so I don't think it would be too much to ask for Fukua imo. Just more of a silly idea I had though so feel free to disagree
 
I'd like to make some change suggestions for the following characters regarding their mechanics and buffs:

Hype gain: Beowulf becomes fully invul. for as long as the EX flash garnered from hype gained (and spent) lasts (goes for all moves that gain hype).
Hype usage: Beowulf can EX his remaining specials and grab stance actions.

EX hurting hurl series:
L hurl: chair is tossed full screen on the ground, destroying any grounded projectiles (doesn't lose hitbox during these collisions but will have non-EX H hurl's cooldown. If it doesn't collide with anything (even characters), it will have its normal counterpart's cooldown instead) while Beowulf gets projectile invul. until the recovery. Allows one more OTG and grab stance state per combo once per use (only if OTG and grab stance have been used already, it won't work if they have not been used already). Costs 1 hype.

M hurl: chair tracks the opponent after a more delayed phase in the air (will have non-EX L hurl's cooldown) while Beowulf gets throw invul. until the recovery. Will cause soft knockdown against grounded opponents, ground bounce against aerial opponents, and increase blockstun by +4. Costs 2 hype.

H hurl: beowulf gets full invul. until the recovery while the chair will land next to Beowulf, having zero cooldown. It will knock opponents upwards long enough for a combo for its rising portion but will be +18 on hit for its descent portion (both are +9 on block). Costs 3 hype.

Grab stance:
Ex headbutt: This uses wulfamania's headbutts. Multiplies it's meter gain by 3 and and keeps Beowulf in grab stance without automatic throw techs. If used as the final enhanced ender, it will apply hitstop used against assists before putting the opponent in a knockdown.

Ex knee: it's mostly the same as EX headbutt.
It's damage also multiplies by 3 and removes 50% recoverable health by half the damage. It will also apply hitstop to the opponent before being wall bounced if it used as the last the final enhanced ender.
(Both can't be EX'ed again (unless in wulfamania) but still act as extenders)

EX geatish trepak: This can be used near the chair if beowulf is unequipped, reeuipping it. Holding down during it will give back it's previous crumple state while not inputting anything else will wall splat instead.

EX wulfshoot:
This trades throw invul. for super armor, but travels less distance. costs 2 hype

EX wulf blitzer:
The final EX blitzer will not put beowulf in a free-fall state but will not let him input his special again until he touches the ground.

EX take a seat:
This causes sliding knockdown on grounded opponents and normal knockdown on aerial opponents towards Beowulf. When held, Beowulf regains 1 hype per 25F, but will increase endlag.

Chair usage:
As an assist: it removes cooldown on all versions of hurting hurl. If the EX versions are used, they have cooldown, but if there isn't a sufficient # of hype, it will resort to using their normal counterparts unless the requirement is met (this also goes for all EX versions if used as assists). Chairless versions can be selected regardless if it's equipped or not.

For blocking: extra chip damage without chair is removed. Takes less chip damage from all sources when the chair is equipped.

Chairless buffs:
chairless S.hp: gains 3 actions instead of 2. Decrease recovery from 28 to 24 and increase active frames by 2F.

"Aroo Ready?" (LvL 2 super version):
Besides gaining brief full invul. from hype gain, this amplifies the rate of passive hype gain from usual sources and removes the 0-hype bonus for 20 seconds (1800F). Each hype used and gained subtracts 45F from the timer. This super can only be accessed if Beowulf taunts first.


Blood drops: while as sekhmet, she can reposition them any where on screen only if she crouches while inputting left/right directions. The drops are set at a distance between each other and cannot stack on top of each other when repositioning. They can harm opponents when they reposition in any way . With dedicated specials, sekhmet (and eliza) can make at least 5 droplets remain stationary, use them to slow opponents down, and splash droplets on them for damage. Eliza can't absorb the stationary drops unless she uses c.hk or another special to to attract towards her. Eliza will also shed 2 blood drops for each 15% of health lost.

Normals involving blood drops:
C.hk: if she is hit by projectiles during this move, she spawns 1 drop per projectile hit.

specials involving blood drops:
L osiris: uses 2 nearby drops to add more hitstun and 50 more damage per drop.
M osiris: vaccums in all bloods drops towards Eliza, damaging any foes caught by them.
H osiris: uses 8 drops or less to add more hits and unscaled damage per drop. This also gives her armor.

Throne of Isis: moves the blood drops backwards normally and speeds up the projectile on contact.
Horace: splashes nearby blood drops in front of him forward, damaging foes caught by the droplets.
Albus: sends blood drops towards Eliza with the opponent in between, putting them in a longer sliding knockdown.

Upper Khat: spawns identical servants from the farthest blood drop.

Supers involving blood drops:
Nekhbet Breaker: uses 7 droplets that become spears to knock the opponent back up for a conversion. Can move Eliza to any part of the screen.

new (LvL 2) super: Blood circulation: collects all blood drops and circulates it around Eliza and sekhmet as a barrier. This doesn't heal her and the duration goes away if all the blood drops come in contact with anything.

Taunt: increases healing from blood drops from 200 HP to about 500 HP each (only affects blood drops that existed on screen before the taunt) and if the taunt is held, the existing blood drops transform into pyramid spikes acting as stage hazards for the opponent while eliza cannot pick them up to heal. Sekhmet can pick them up to heal from the pyramid spikes.

Hunger modes: Each one buffs and nerfs certain aspects of umbrella's kit and mobility.

Overstuffed:
Gives umbrella her default slow movement.
All 3 bubble specials can be out at the same time.
Cutie ptooie's arc can be influenced in different trajectories.
Bobblin bubble can trap up to 5 projectiles before it pops to pressure and can act as an accumalative reflector. It can be pushed around by umbrella once before it pops the 2nd time. Umbrella gains projectile invul. if she jumps from the bubble.
Wish maker can give hit grab properties to the other 2 bubble specials and trap 1 projectile when in contact.
Allows stacked puddles to remain if one is used.
SnS and Rush (for its rising portion) gain 1-hit armor (SnS) and 2-hit armor (Rush)
Rush can interact with puddles for it's descent portion, which puts opponents in a knockdown.

Satiated:
Gives umbrella decent speed faster than her default one.
Hungern rush gains full invul. for the whole duration.
SnS and tongue twister can eat projectiles to gain 1 pip per item and are projectile invul.
salt grinder can reflect projectiles.

Ravenous:
Like satiated, but better.
Gives umbrella faster mobility than satiated.
Hungern rush loses Full invul. during the descent portion but it can be super canceled.
Utilises eyeballs that stay on screen by hitting them to stick on opponents, which later pop and put them in a knockdown.

Starving:
Gives umbrella slightly slower mobility than Overstuffed.
Can't utilise specials that eat projectiles.
Tongue twister gains ravenous's range, but is slower.

normals buffs shared by the modes:
S.hp is projectile invul.
j.mk's falling portion is a command normal (J.2mk).

Supers:
Feeding time: button combination determines which mode gets a pip increase.
Lp+Mp: increases ravenous section by 2 pips
Lp+Hp: increases satiated section by 1 pip. direction input determines which section (overstuffed and ravenous) gives up 1 pip to satiated section.
Mp+Hp: increases overstuffed section by 2 pips.

Contact lens:
input shortcut (323) can be used to avoid misinputs with Retina reflector.
input changed to 623 + KK as an alternative.

Retina reflector:
it has full invul. against beams.
depending on the punch button used to hit retina reflector, it can launch varying # of eyeballs at different angles (S.hp is the only normal to launch all of them straight at the opponent).

taunt: input is changed to quarter circle motions and throw input. there are 2 versions.
QCB Lp+Lk: uses umbrella's default taunt to drain hunger meter. turns feeding time and tongue twister into hitgrabs (goes away if used until the taunt is used again).
QCF Lp+Lk: uses umbrella's intro pose that feeds hungern, increasing the hunger meter by 1 pip per ice cream consumed. increases armor hits for overstuffed SnS and Rush by 2 hits (goes away on contact until the taunt is used again)
Both versions can be held indefinetely like umbrella's current taunt.

That is all I have for now at least.
 
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HellCofer180 said:
I'd like to make some change suggestions for the following characters regarding their mechanics and buffs:

Hype gain: Beowulf becomes fully invul. for as long as the EX flash garnered from hype gain lasts (goes for all moves that gain hype).
Hype spend: Beowulf can EX his remaining specials and grab stance actions.

EX hurting hurl series:
L hurl: chair is tossed full screen on the ground, destroying any grounded projectiles (doesn't lose hitbox during these collisions but will have non-EX H hurl's cooldown. If it doesn't collide with projectiles, it will have its normal counterpart's cooldown instead) while Beowulf gets projectile invul. until the recovery. Allows one more OTG and grab stance state per combo once per use (only if OTG and grab stance have been used already, it won't work if they have not been used already). Costs 1 hype.

M hurl: chair tracks the opponent after a more delayed phase in the air (will have non-EX L hurl's cooldown) while Beowulf gets throw invul. until the recovery. Will knock down against grounded opponents, ground bounce against aerial opponents, and increase blockstun by +4. Costs 2 hype.

H hurl:beowulf gets full invul. until the recovery while the chair will land next to Beowulf, having zero cooldown. It will knock opponents upwards long enough for a combo for its rising portion but will be +18 on hit and for its descent portion (both are +9 on block). Costs 3 hype.

Grab stance:
Ex headbutt: This uses wulfamania's headbutts. Multiplies it's meter gain by 3 and and keeps Beowulf in grab stance without automatic throw techs. If used as the final enhanced ender, it will apply hitstop used against assists before putting the opponent in a knockdown.

Ex knee: it's mostly the same as EX headbutt.
It's damage also multiplies by 3 and removes 50% recoverable health by half the damage. It will also apply hitstop to the opponent before being wall bounced if it used as the last the final enhanced ender.
(Both can't be EX'ed again (unless in wulfamania) but still act as extenders)

EX geatish trepak: This can be used near the chair if beowulf is unequipped, reeuipping it. Holding down during it will give back it's previous crumple state while not inputting anything else will wall splat instead.

EX wulfshoot:
This trades throw invul. for super armor, but travels less distance. costs 2 hype

EX wulf blitzer:
It will have brief projectile invul. on startup.

EX take a seat:
This causes sliding knockdown on grounded opponents and normal knockdown on aerial opponents towards Beowulf. When held, Beowulf regains 1 hype per 25F, but will increase endlag.

Chair usage:
As an assist: it removes cooldown on all versions of hurting hurl. If the EX versions are used, they have cooldown, but if there isn't a sufficient # of hype, it will resort to using their normal counterparts unless the requirement is met (this also goes for all EX versions if used as assists). Chairless versions can be selected regardless if it's equipped or not.

For blocking: extra chip damage without chair is removed. Takes less chip damage from all sources when the chair is equipped.

Chairless buffs:
chairless S.hp: gains 3 actions instead of 2. Decrease recovery from 28 to 24 and increase active frames by 2F.

"Aroo Ready?" (LvL 2 super version):
Besides gaining brief full invul. from hype gain, this amplifies the rate of passive hype gain from usual sources and removes the 0-hype bonus for 20 seconds (1800F). Each hype used and gained subtracts 45F from the timer. This super can only be accessed if Beowulf taunts first.


Blood drops: while as sekhmet, she can reposition them any where on screen only if she crouches. the drops are set at a distance between each other and cannot stack on top of each other when repositioning. They can harm opponents when they reposition in any way .With dedicated specials, sekhmet (and eliza) can make at least 5 droplets remain stationary, use them to slow opponents down, and splash droplets on them for damage. Eliza can't absorb the stationary drops unless she uses c.hk or another special to to attract towards her. Eliza will also shed 2 blood drops for each 15% of health lost.

Normals involving blood drops:
C.hk: if she is hit by projectiles during this move, she spawns 1 drop per projectile hit.

specials involving blood drops:
L osiris: uses 2 nearby drops to add more hitstun and 50 more damage per drop.
M osiris: vaccums in all bloods drops towards Eliza, damaging any foes caught by them.
H osiris: uses 8 drops or less to add more hits and unscaled damage per drop. This also gives her armor.

Throne of Isis: moves the blood drops backwards normally and speeds up the projectile on contact.
Horace: splashes nearby blood drops in front of him forward, damaging foes caught by the droplets.
Albus: sends blood drops towards Eliza with the opponent in between, putting them in a longer sliding knockdown.

Upper Khat: spawns identical servants from the farthest blood drop.

Supers involving blood drops:
Nekhbet Breaker: uses 7 droplets that become spears to knock the opponent back up for a conversion. can move Eliza to any part of the screen.

new (LvL 2) super: Blood circulation: collects all blood drops and circulates it around Eliza and sekhmet as a barrier. This doesn't heal her and the duration goes away if all the blood drops come in contact with opponents or projectiles per hit.

Taunt: increases healing from blood drops from 200 HP to about 500 HP each (only affects blood drops that existed on screen before the taunt) and if the taunt is held, the existing blood drops transform into pyramid spikes acting as stage hazards for the opponent while eliza cannot pick them up to heal. Sekhmet can pick them up to heal from the pyramid spikes.

Hunger modes: Each one buffs and nerfs certain aspects of umbrella's kit and mobility.

Overstuffed:
Gives umbrella her default slow movement.
All 3 bubble specials can be out at the same time.
Cutie ptooie's arc can be influenced in different trajectories.
Bobblin bubble can trap up to 5 projectiles before it pops to pressure and can act as an accumalative reflector. It can be pushed around by umbrella once before it pops the 2nd time. Umbrella gains projectile invul. if she jumps from the bubble.
Wish maker can give hit grab properties to the other 2 bubble specials and trap 1 projectile when in contact.
Allows stacked puddles to remain if one is used.
SnS and Rush (for its rising portion) gain 1-hit armor (SnS) and 2-hit armor (Rush)
Rush can interact with puddles for it's descent portion, which puts opponents in a knockdown.

Satiated:
Gives umbrella decent speed faster than her default one.
Hungern rush gains full invul. for the whole duration.
SnS and tongue twister can eat projectiles to gain 1 pip per item and are projectile invul.
salt grinder can reflect projectiles.

Ravenous:
Like satiated, but better.
Gives umbrella faster mobility than satiated.
Hungern rush loses Full invul. during the descent portion but it can be super canceled.
Utilises eyeballs that stay on screen by hitting them to stick on opponents, which later pop and put them in a knockdown.

Starving:
Gives umbrella slightly slower mobility than Overstuffed.
Can't utilise specials that eat projectiles.
Tongue twister gains ravenous's range, but is slower.

normals buffs shared by the modes:
S.hp is projectile invul.
j.mk's falling portion is a command normal (J.2mk).

Supers:
Feeding time: button combination determines which mode gets a pip increase.
Lp+Mp: increases ravenous section by 2 pips
Lp+Hp: increases satiated section by 1 pip. direction input determines which section (overstuffed and ravenous) gives up 1 pip to satiated section.
Mp+Hp: increases overstuffed section by 2 pips.

Contact lens:
input shortcut (323) can be used to avoid misinputs with Retina reflector.

Retina reflector:
it has full invul. against beams.
depending on the punch button used to hit retina reflector, it can launch varying # of eyeballs at different angles (S.hp is the only normal to launch all of them straight at the opponent).

taunt: input is changed to quarter circle motions and throw input. there are 2 versions.
QCB Lp+Lk: uses umbrella's default taunt to drain hunger meter. turns feeding time and tongue twister into hitgrabs (goes away if used until the taunt is used again).
QCF Lp+Lk: uses umbrella's intro pose that feeds hungern, increasing the hunger meter by 1 pip per ice cream consumed. increases armor hits for overstuffed SnS and Rush by 2 hits (goes away on contact until the taunt is used again)
Both versions can be held indefinetely like umbrella's current taunt.

That is all I have for now at least.
This is a fighting game not an MMO RPG.
 
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Another reason i think this whole thing should be private...i dont necessarily agree or understand some of what @HellCofer180 said either but i do think some ideas examined more or even transplanted into something else would be cool. Can always focus on that rather than the things disagreed with. Seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Regardless, I'd rather leave 'taste' to the devs & let people play with things otherwise it's gonna be like discord. Again. People who just dont want to say anything after seeing certain reactions & curbing their enthusiasm. The forums arent indicative of even a quarter the sg playerbase or their ideas as terse as that sounds. Qols are dope, but a vast majority want more changes than that, just check old threads & old discords messages. But no one says anything cuz why bother. Conservatism (as a whole) isnt gonna help here.

Last time ill echo so im not repetitive, it's just sad to see rather than letting people speak their peace. Agreed or not.
 
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HellCofer180 said:
I'd like to make some change suggestions for the following characters regarding their mechanics and buffs:

Hype gain: Beowulf becomes fully invul. for as long as the EX flash garnered from hype gain lasts (goes for all moves that gain hype).
Hype spend: Beowulf can EX his remaining specials and grab stance actions.

EX hurting hurl series:
L hurl: chair is tossed full screen on the ground, destroying any grounded projectiles (doesn't lose hitbox during these collisions but will have non-EX H hurl's cooldown. If it doesn't collide with projectiles, it will have its normal counterpart's cooldown instead) while Beowulf gets projectile invul. until the recovery. Allows one more OTG and grab stance state per combo once per use (only if OTG and grab stance have been used already, it won't work if they have not been used already). Costs 1 hype.

M hurl: chair tracks the opponent after a more delayed phase in the air (will have non-EX L hurl's cooldown) while Beowulf gets throw invul. until the recovery. Will knock down against grounded opponents, ground bounce against aerial opponents, and increase blockstun by +4. Costs 2 hype.

H hurl:beowulf gets full invul. until the recovery while the chair will land next to Beowulf, having zero cooldown. It will knock opponents upwards long enough for a combo for its rising portion but will be +18 on hit and for its descent portion (both are +9 on block). Costs 3 hype.

Grab stance:
Ex headbutt: This uses wulfamania's headbutts. Multiplies it's meter gain by 3 and and keeps Beowulf in grab stance without automatic throw techs. If used as the final enhanced ender, it will apply hitstop used against assists before putting the opponent in a knockdown.

Ex knee: it's mostly the same as EX headbutt.
It's damage also multiplies by 3 and removes 50% recoverable health by half the damage. It will also apply hitstop to the opponent before being wall bounced if it used as the last the final enhanced ender.
(Both can't be EX'ed again (unless in wulfamania) but still act as extenders)

EX geatish trepak: This can be used near the chair if beowulf is unequipped, reeuipping it. Holding down during it will give back it's previous crumple state while not inputting anything else will wall splat instead.

EX wulfshoot:
This trades throw invul. for super armor, but travels less distance. costs 2 hype

EX wulf blitzer:
It will have brief projectile invul. on startup.

EX take a seat:
This causes sliding knockdown on grounded opponents and normal knockdown on aerial opponents towards Beowulf. When held, Beowulf regains 1 hype per 25F, but will increase endlag.

Chair usage:
As an assist: it removes cooldown on all versions of hurting hurl. If the EX versions are used, they have cooldown, but if there isn't a sufficient # of hype, it will resort to using their normal counterparts unless the requirement is met (this also goes for all EX versions if used as assists). Chairless versions can be selected regardless if it's equipped or not.

For blocking: extra chip damage without chair is removed. Takes less chip damage from all sources when the chair is equipped.

Chairless buffs:
chairless S.hp: gains 3 actions instead of 2. Decrease recovery from 28 to 24 and increase active frames by 2F.

"Aroo Ready?" (LvL 2 super version):
Besides gaining brief full invul. from hype gain, this amplifies the rate of passive hype gain from usual sources and removes the 0-hype bonus for 20 seconds (1800F). Each hype used and gained subtracts 45F from the timer. This super can only be accessed if Beowulf taunts first.


Blood drops: while as sekhmet, she can reposition them any where on screen only if she crouches. the drops are set at a distance between each other and cannot stack on top of each other when repositioning. They can harm opponents when they reposition in any way .With dedicated specials, sekhmet (and eliza) can make at least 5 droplets remain stationary, use them to slow opponents down, and splash droplets on them for damage. Eliza can't absorb the stationary drops unless she uses c.hk or another special to to attract towards her. Eliza will also shed 2 blood drops for each 15% of health lost.

Normals involving blood drops:
C.hk: if she is hit by projectiles during this move, she spawns 1 drop per projectile hit.

specials involving blood drops:
L osiris: uses 2 nearby drops to add more hitstun and 50 more damage per drop.
M osiris: vaccums in all bloods drops towards Eliza, damaging any foes caught by them.
H osiris: uses 8 drops or less to add more hits and unscaled damage per drop. This also gives her armor.

Throne of Isis: moves the blood drops backwards normally and speeds up the projectile on contact.
Horace: splashes nearby blood drops in front of him forward, damaging foes caught by the droplets.
Albus: sends blood drops towards Eliza with the opponent in between, putting them in a longer sliding knockdown.

Upper Khat: spawns identical servants from the farthest blood drop.

Supers involving blood drops:
Nekhbet Breaker: uses 7 droplets that become spears to knock the opponent back up for a conversion. can move Eliza to any part of the screen.

new (LvL 2) super: Blood circulation: collects all blood drops and circulates it around Eliza and sekhmet as a barrier. This doesn't heal her and the duration goes away if all the blood drops come in contact with opponents or projectiles per hit.

Taunt: increases healing from blood drops from 200 HP to about 500 HP each (only affects blood drops that existed on screen before the taunt) and if the taunt is held, the existing blood drops transform into pyramid spikes acting as stage hazards for the opponent while eliza cannot pick them up to heal. Sekhmet can pick them up to heal from the pyramid spikes.

Hunger modes: Each one buffs and nerfs certain aspects of umbrella's kit and mobility.

Overstuffed:
Gives umbrella her default slow movement.
All 3 bubble specials can be out at the same time.
Cutie ptooie's arc can be influenced in different trajectories.
Bobblin bubble can trap up to 5 projectiles before it pops to pressure and can act as an accumalative reflector. It can be pushed around by umbrella once before it pops the 2nd time. Umbrella gains projectile invul. if she jumps from the bubble.
Wish maker can give hit grab properties to the other 2 bubble specials and trap 1 projectile when in contact.
Allows stacked puddles to remain if one is used.
SnS and Rush (for its rising portion) gain 1-hit armor (SnS) and 2-hit armor (Rush)
Rush can interact with puddles for it's descent portion, which puts opponents in a knockdown.

Satiated:
Gives umbrella decent speed faster than her default one.
Hungern rush gains full invul. for the whole duration.
SnS and tongue twister can eat projectiles to gain 1 pip per item and are projectile invul.
salt grinder can reflect projectiles.

Ravenous:
Like satiated, but better.
Gives umbrella faster mobility than satiated.
Hungern rush loses Full invul. during the descent portion but it can be super canceled.
Utilises eyeballs that stay on screen by hitting them to stick on opponents, which later pop and put them in a knockdown.

Starving:
Gives umbrella slightly slower mobility than Overstuffed.
Can't utilise specials that eat projectiles.
Tongue twister gains ravenous's range, but is slower.

normals buffs shared by the modes:
S.hp is projectile invul.
j.mk's falling portion is a command normal (J.2mk).

Supers:
Feeding time: button combination determines which mode gets a pip increase.
Lp+Mp: increases ravenous section by 2 pips
Lp+Hp: increases satiated section by 1 pip. direction input determines which section (overstuffed and ravenous) gives up 1 pip to satiated section.
Mp+Hp: increases overstuffed section by 2 pips.

Contact lens:
input shortcut (323) can be used to avoid misinputs with Retina reflector.

Retina reflector:
it has full invul. against beams.
depending on the punch button used to hit retina reflector, it can launch varying # of eyeballs at different angles (S.hp is the only normal to launch all of them straight at the opponent).

taunt: input is changed to quarter circle motions and throw input. there are 2 versions.
QCB Lp+Lk: uses umbrella's default taunt to drain hunger meter. turns feeding time and tongue twister into hitgrabs (goes away if used until the taunt is used again).
QCF Lp+Lk: uses umbrella's intro pose that feeds hungern, increasing the hunger meter by 1 pip per ice cream consumed. increases armor hits for overstuffed SnS and Rush by 2 hits (goes away on contact until the taunt is used again)
Both versions can be held indefinetely like umbrella's current taunt.

That is all I have for now at least.
This is a fighting game not an MMO RPG.
 
HellCofer180 said:
What do you mean by that? Is it my suggestions that made you say that?
You proposed 3 total character overhauls with zero regard for how they would interact with the rest of the cast. Almost all of the changes you proposed are completely fanciful and over complicated to a degree that would force paragraphs of explanation per character. You are essentially catapulting each of the mentioned characters into the stratosphere in terms of outlandish amount of move properties or character specific system mechanics, with seeming half of them being projectile invulnerability of some sort. We are trying to propose changes and spit ball for a balanced competitive game environment not make cool characters for a PVE game where we are trying to defeat a boss spamming bullet hell projectiles at us.

In many games small changes can make a large difference, focused player vs player interactions even more so, and the amount of invuln or armor proposed gives the impression that you don't understand why something being -7 vs -2 can be a drastic difference in decision making, match ups or risk.

Eliza blood mechanic would be cool.
 
Taterade said:
You proposed 3 total character overhauls with zero regard for how they would interact with the rest of the cast. Almost all of the changes you proposed are completely fanciful and over complicated to a degree that would force paragraphs of explanation per character. You are essentially catapulting each of the mentioned characters into the stratosphere in terms of outlandish amount of move properties or character specific system mechanics, with seeming half of them being projectile invulnerability of some sort. We are trying to propose changes and spit ball for a balanced competitive game environment not make cool characters for a PVE game where we are trying to defeat a boss spamming bullet hell projectiles at us.

In many games small changes can make a large difference, focused player vs player interactions even more so, and the amount of invuln or armor proposed gives the impression that you don't understand why something being -7 vs -2 can be a drastic difference in decision making, match ups or risk.

Eliza blood mechanic would be cool.
You know, after reading through previous pages of this thread, I realized I should have stated reasons for the suggestions, my bad.

Now as for the reasons:
1) beowulf's hype usage should be more widespread in his move list right now because I feel like this could give him a leg-up in some match-ups (especially against zoners). As most people have said, beowulf really struggles to pressure opponents in neutral because of his mobility and limited options w/out hype, which is why he always needs assists to cover for his glaring weaknesses. With my suggestions, beowulf can consistently stand on his own in neutral and in gaining hype without assists (I'll readjust his buffs to support this claim) while still capitalizing on damage and new combo routes without needing situational assists (I'll let someone else handle beowulf's necessary nerfs if his buffs prove him too strong).

2)Eliza has a new, unpolished mechanic that will need readjusting to buff her. She is really limited in her intended ranged pressure, combo conversions from super, and in viability, and sekhmet is only used as a combo converter (sometimes as a counter). With this new change, Eliza and sekhmet can stand out more (having her original mechanic be brought back in a somewhat different fashion) and have consistent pressure and combo conversions. It would also improve the viability of her specials even more since few of them are only ever useful to throw out in neutral.

3) Umbrella can be made better. From what I've heard, she is hindered by having bad defense against projectiles and is so inconsistent in her defensive moves, she may not be able to retaliate. With her gameplay goal being to maintain ravenous, people wonder why she would have other hunger modes like overstuffed not viable outside of combos. I propose to make her others modes viable while still having ravenous as the intended goal in mind. Overstuffed focuses on bubbles and defensive play, satiated focuses on balanced play, and ravenous focuses on eyeballs and advantage(for the record, I think her mobility speed should be slightly adjusted depending on the mode she's in). Starving can remain as it is, it's supposed to be punishment for failing to maintain ravenous. Umbrella can be made better if her tools are fixed.

Overall, this is just me giving my 2 cents to this discussion, I'm just joining in despite being a relatively new player and forum user. I gotten some ideas for their buffs from others users who gave their ideas to improve on the characters listed. Maybe if I was more involved in this discussion and the meta, I would be able to give more thoughtful suggestions for future balance patches.
 
HellCofer180 said:
You know, after reading through previous pages of this thread, I realized I should have stated reasons for the suggestions, my bad.

Now as for the reasons:
1) beowulf's hype usage should be more widespread in his move list right now because I feel like this could give him a leg-up in some match-ups (especially against zoners). As most people have said, beowulf really struggles to pressure opponents in neutral because of his mobility and limited options w/out hype, which is why he always needs assists to cover for his glaring weaknesses. With my suggestions, beowulf can consistently stand on his own in neutral and in gaining hype without assists (I'll readjust his buffs to support this claim) while still capitalizing on damage and new combo routes without needing situational assists (I'll let someone else handle beowulf's necessary nerfs if his buffs prove him too strong).

2)Eliza has a new, unpolished mechanic that will need readjusting to buff her. She is really limited in her intended ranged pressure, combo conversions from super, and in viability, and sekhmet is only used as a combo converter (sometimes as a counter). With this new change, Eliza and sekhmet can stand out more (having her original mechanic be brought back in a somewhat different fashion) and have consistent pressure and combo conversions. It would also improve the viability of her specials even more since few of them are only ever useful to throw out in neutral.

3) Umbrella can be made better. From what I've heard, she is hindered by having bad defense against projectiles and is so inconsistent in her defensive moves, she may not be able to retaliate. With her gameplay goal being to maintain ravenous, people wonder why she would have other hunger modes like overstuffed not viable outside of combos. I propose to make her others modes viable while still having ravenous as the intended goal in mind. Overstuffed focuses on bubbles and defensive play, satiated focuses on balanced play, and ravenous focuses on eyeballs and advantage(for the record, I think her mobility speed should be slightly adjusted depending on the mode she's in). Starving can remain as it is, it's supposed to be punishment for failing to maintain ravenous. Umbrella can be made better if her tools are fixed.

Overall, this is just me giving my 2 cents to this discussion, I'm just joining in despite being a relatively new player and forum user. I gotten some ideas for their buffs from others users who gave their ideas to improve on the characters listed. Maybe if I was more involved in this discussion and the meta, I would be able to give more thoughtful suggestions for future balance patches.
Eliza doesnt need anything of what you have been suggesting, and she certainly does not need new supers, sekhmet is more than a combo tool, and what she needs to be "more viable" as a pick is not the changes you suggested.
 
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Halibel said:
Eliza doesnt need anything of what you have been suggesting, and she certainly does not need new supers, sekhmet is more than a combo tool, and what she needs to be "more viable" as a pick is not the changes you suggested.
She still needs readjustments and buffs anyway. My suggestions aren't perfect in a sense that they don't account for everything that makes them balanced but hey, at least it was something.
 
*moderator hat on*

I don't want to overmoderate the forum but do keep in mind to try to keep replies helpful and constructive, especially for this thread since it's a supposed to be place for gameplay suggestions which the devs actually check for ideas.

Vending said:
This is a fighting game not an MMO RPG.

C'mon now. It was funny the first time but if you keep copy-pasting other posts it it's spamming. Consider this your first warning.
 
You're basically pitching entirely new characters at this point.
 
Hey everyone,

Thank you everyone for sharing their thoughts here. I have read through all of it and I am all caught up. As you are probably aware, we mentioned previously that we would like to kick off the balance patch before Marie's alpha/beta. While I'm still hopeful we'll be able to start the balance patch before Marie's alpha releases, I expect we will still be iterating on the those balance changes after Marie's alpha has begun due to her accelerated development for SGM and 2E. We can however carve out the balance changes unrelated to Marie and ship those early once they stabilize if desired, without waiting for Marie to have her finalized clean frames.

For a bit of a development update, here's some of the things keeping us busy:

  • XBOX PORT (ALMOST DONE!)​

    • Porting to a brand new platform is always a huge undertaking, and this is no exception. The development work for this port is more or less fully complete, and we're just navigating the final steps of submission and the like.

  • JAPANESE PS4 RELEASE (THIS MONTH!)​

    • Now that publishing responsibilities have transferred over to us from Arc System Works, we've been working on getting this version of the game updated to be in line with the rest of the PS4 versions. This should hopefully be released before the end of the month!

  • MARIE (IN PROGRESS)​

    • Marie is far along in terms of the raw number of rough frames that we have for her, and the amount that we have integrated. Right now we've been focusing on getting all of her animations and attacks implemented only to the point where we can confirm the art is safe to move on to the tiedown phase and then cleanup. That obviously leaves a lot of polish, tuning, and bug fixing that will need to be resolved before we can launch her in her alpha state, so despite how feature rich she may seem from teasers and gameplay videos, she still has quite a ways to go.

  • BALANCE PATCH (IN PROGRESS)​

    • We've been discussing this internally and have a few more hands to help share the load for this one as well. While I don't have an ETA on when the balance patch will start officially, you shouldn't expect the first balance changes/beta experiments to start until July at the earliest. That said, we'll be posting more often here in the coming weeks to kick off some conversation topics, and we'll be trying to funnel the conversation towards some key discussion points that have hit a cyclical deadlock to see if we can move past them. This can be for high level balancing decisions about the meta, or character focused for picks like Annie, Ms. Fortune, etc. There should hopefully be room to establish a few goals for the theme of the changes (open to discussion as well) so that we can discuss things with that in mind and move towards them as a group.
That's all for today!
 
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Once the Xbox port and the update for the Japanese PS4 release are out, is this gonna benefit doubling your efforts on developing Marie a bit faster? I rather for her to be released on Mobile first so that I can make an Orie palette out of her and put it on my projects, like Annie and Black Dahlia did.
 
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Wanted to throw out this suggestion/idea fro Dahlia, maybe something that'll be fun or interesting in the beta, what if her c.MP was able to either deflect projectiles or eliminate them? Could be an interesting dynamic in certain matchups like Parasoul or Double since you'd have to time them well, and even deflecting/stopping Peacock's H. Bomb?
 
I'm reposting this with feedback (reasons) included.

Hype gain: Beowulf becomes fully invul. for as long as the EX flash garnered from hype gained (and spent) lasts (goes for all moves that gain hype).
Hype usage: Beowulf can EX his remaining specials and grab stance actions.
Hype indicator: A gauge shows how many levels of hype beowulf currently has.

Reason: This can help beowulf avoid taking hits and/or counter with well-timed EX flashes either from gaining or spending hype (though the EX flashes are very brief, meaning full invul. from them is brief too), which makes EX flashes interesting from any other visual indicators in the game. Beowulf should utilize the rest of his kit with hype for more costly options.

EX hurting hurl series:
L hurl: chair is tossed full screen on the ground, destroying any grounded projectiles (doesn't lose hitbox during these collisions but will have non-EX H hurl's cooldown. If it doesn't collide with anything (even characters), it will have its normal counterpart's cooldown instead) while Beowulf gets projectile invul. until the recovery. Allows one more OTG and grab stance state per combo once per use (only if OTG and grab stance have been used already, it won't work if they have not been used already)and travels slightly faster than its normal counter-part. Also loses sweep property. Costs 1 hype.

Reason: Mainly helps deal with zoning but it can also be used to catch opponents off-guard from far away due to its speed. Also gives the incentive to use L Hurl in neutral at a low cost.

M hurl: chair tracks the opponent after a more delayed phase in the air (will have non-EX L hurl's cooldown) while Beowulf gets throw invul. until the recovery. Will cause soft knockdown against grounded opponents, ground bounce against aerial opponents, and increase blockstun by +4 (rising portion). Costs 2 hype.

Reason: Gives beowulf something to pressure opponents with at a distance for a moderate cost at the risk of losing OTG after it hits.

H hurl: beowulf gets full invul. until the recovery while the chair will land next to Beowulf, having zero cooldown. It will knock opponents upwards long enough for a combo for its rising portion but will be +18 on hit for its descent portion (both are +7 on block). Costs 3 hype.

Reason: Gives beowulf a useful, meterless reversal to combo off on at the cost of all his hype.
(To activate these EX versions, press the appropriate button strengths twice after the motion input, like MK's meter burn)

Grab stance:
Ex headbutt: This uses wulfamania's headbutts. Multiplies it's meter gain by 3, deals 87% recoverable health during the bite portion, and keeps Beowulf in grab stance without automatic throw techs. If used as the final enhanced ender, it will apply hitstop used against assists before putting the opponent in a knockdown.

Ex knee: it's mostly the same as EX headbutt (but will feature a bright hitspark for visual differentiation).
It's damage also multiplies by 3 and removes 50% recoverable health by half the damage in total. It will also apply hitstop to the opponent before being wall bounced if it used as the last the final enhanced ender.
(Both can't be EX'ed again (unless in wulfamania) but still act as extenders)

Reason: Utilizes EX headbutt + knee both as extenders to keep opponents in beowulf's grasp and as enders for extra benefits.
(Activate them by pressing PP or KK for EX versions)

EX geatish trepak: This can be used near the chair if beowulf is unequipped, reequipping it afterwards. Holding down during it will give back it's previous crumple state (with hitstop) while not inputting anything else will wall splat instead.

Reason: beowulf can get his chair back this way and utilize the crumple state to combo off of or use wall splat instead for conversions.

EX wulfshoot:
This trades throw invul. for super armor, but travels less distance. It also becomes a hit grab. costs 2 hype

Reason: Gives beowulf another option to 'bulldog' his way through without interruption and combo into at the cost of hype and distance.
(Activates by pressing throw input twice after quarter-circle, think MK's meter burn)

EX wulf blitzer:
Any EX blitzer will not put beowulf in a free-fall state but will not let him input his special again until he touches the ground.

Reason: improves on its usage by allowing beowulf to get the jump on his opponents using his long-ranged aerial normals after any EX blitzer at the cost of being unable to use blitzer again.

EX take a seat:
This causes sliding knockdown on grounded opponents and normal knockdown on aerial opponents towards Beowulf. When held, Beowulf regains 1 hype per 30F, but will increase endlag.

Reason: Makes it easy for beowulf to regain hype at the cost of lengthy recovery.

Chair usage:
As an assist: it removes cooldown on all versions of hurting hurl. If the EX versions are used, they have cooldown, but if there isn't a sufficient # of hype, it will resort to using their normal counterparts unless the requirement is met (this also goes for all EX versions if used as assists). Chairless versions can be selected regardless if it's equipped or not.
For blocking: extra chip damage without chair is removed. Takes less chip damage (-35 chip damage) from all sources when the chair is equipped.

Reason: Gives beowulf (more) better assist options and defense from chip damage pressure.

buffs:
1) Chairless S.hp: gains 3 actions instead of 2. Decrease recovery from 28 to 25 and increase active frames by 2F.
2) C.mk can also grab opponents in crumple state.
3) C.Lk can now hit twice with each button press
4) Enhanced (not EX) knees in wulfamania and airwulf deal 75% recoverable health.
5) Enhanced (not EX) headbutts in wulfamania and airwulf will randomly deal 83% recoverable only once.

Reason: Makes it more easier to utilise grab stance more often and pressure and damage opponents.

"Aroo Ready?" (LvL 2 super version):
Besides gaining brief full invul. from hype gain, this amplifies the rate of passive hype gain from usual sources and removes the 0-hype bonus for 20 seconds (1800F). Each hype used and gained subtracts 45F from the timer. This super can only be accessed if Beowulf taunts first.

Reason: Gives better passive hype gain without the need of assists during combos for only 2 bars of meter.

Airwulf:
Can now be used in the air, still retaining it's hight.

Reason: Gives Beowulf a get-out-of-jail free card when pressured in the air.


Blood drops: while as sekhmet, she can reposition them any where on screen only if she crouches while inputting left/right directions. The drops are set at a distance between each other and cannot stack on top of each other when repositioning. They can harm opponents when they reposition in any way . With dedicated specials, sekhmet (and eliza) can use them to slow opponents down and splash droplets on them for damage. Eliza can't absorb the stationary drops unless she uses c.hk or another special to to attract towards her. Eliza will also shed 2 blood drops for each 15% of health lost.

Reason: Utilizes blood drops positioning without possibly obstructing eliza's gameplan involving them by just using sekhmet (or her specials) to reposition them and use her taunt to make them stationary.

Normals involving blood drops:
C.hk: if she is hit by projectiles during this move, she spawns 1 drop per projectile hit.

Reason: Easy to get blood drops during zoning.

specials involving blood drops:
L osiris: uses 2 nearby drops to add more hitstun and 50 more damage per drop.
M osiris: vaccums in all bloods drops towards Eliza, damaging any foes caught by them.
H osiris: uses 8 drops or less to add more hits and unscaled damage per drop. This also gives her armor.

Reason: Gain benefits from using different button strengths involving blood drops either during combos or neutral.

Throne of Isis: moves the blood drops backwards normally and speeds up the projectile on contact.
Horace: splashes nearby blood drops in front of him forward, damaging foes caught by the droplets.
Albus: sends blood drops towards Eliza with the opponent in between, putting them in a longer sliding knockdown.

Reason: Utilizes her servants to reposition blood drops and pressure opponents with blood drops.

Upper Khat: spawns identical servants from the farthest blood drop.

Reason: Gives eliza good pressure against opponents far away if the farthest blood drop was set.

Supers involving blood drops:
Nekhbet Breaker: uses 7 droplets that become spears to knock the opponent back up for a conversion. Can move Eliza to any part of the screen.

new (LvL 2) super: Blood circulation: collects all blood drops and circulates it around Eliza and sekhmet as a barrier. This doesn't heal her and the duration goes away if all the blood drops come in contact with anything. She can't spawn new blood drops until the duration ends.

Reason: Nekhbet with blood drops give eliza a super to convert off of and blood circulation gives her good defense as long as the existing blood drops last.

Taunt: increases healing from blood drops from 200 HP to about 500 HP each (only affects blood drops that existed on screen before the taunt) and if the taunt is held, the existing blood drops transform into pyramid spikes acting as stage hazards for the opponent while eliza cannot pick them up to heal. Sekhmet can pick them up to heal from the pyramid spikes.

Reason: Gives eliza good healing and stage control with pyramid spikes as stage hazards.

Hunger modes: Each one buffs and nerfs certain aspects of umbrella's kit and mobility.

Overstuffed:
Gives umbrella her default slow movement.
All 3 bubble specials can be out at the same time.
Cutie ptooie's arc can be influenced in different trajectories.
Bobblin bubble can trap up to 5 projectiles before it pops to pressure and can act as an accumalative reflector. It can be pushed around by umbrella once or twice before it pops. Umbrella gains projectile invul. if she jumps from the bubble.
Wish maker can give hit grab properties to the other 2 bubble specials and trap 1 projectile when in contact.
Allows stacked puddles to remain if one is used.
SnS and Rush (for its rising portion) gain 1-hit armor (SnS) and 2-hit armor (Rush)
Rush can interact with puddles for it's descent portion, which puts opponents in a knockdown.

Reason: This mode is her dedicated defense, giving her good defensive options agianst zoning and other things with bubbles and armor moves. it revolves around the use of bubbles, which can be a pain to deal with if you're the opponent.

Satiated:
Gives umbrella decent speed faster than her default one.
Hungern rush gains full invul. for the whole duration.
SnS and tongue twister can eat projectiles to gain 1 pip per item and are projectile invul.
salt grinder can reflect projectiles.

Reason: This is the main mode to be in, moving at a decent fast speed and having consistent and safe reversals while having moderate ways to deal with zoning.

Ravenous:
Like satiated, but better.
Gives umbrella faster mobility than satiated.
Hungern rush loses Full invul. during the descent portion but it can be super canceled.
Utilises eyeballs that stay on screen by hitting them to stick on opponents, which later pop and put them in a knockdown.

Reason: This mode is the most rewarding to be in, giving you far better advantage in offense and speed and in utilising the eyes to pressure opponents.

Starving:
Gives umbrella slightly slower mobility than Overstuffed.
Can't utilise specials that eat projectiles.
Tongue twister gains ravenous's range, but is slower.

Reason: This mode is the punishment for mismanaging the hunger bar and will be treated as such while giving chances to return to normal hunger levels for high damage.

normals buffs shared by the modes:
S.hp is projectile invul.
j.mk's falling portion is a command normal (J.2mk).

Reason: Gives umbrella good tools to beat zoning and utilize j.mk in dropping on the opponents.

Supers:
Feeding time: button combination determines which mode gets a pip increase.
Lp+Mp: increases ravenous section by 2 pips
Lp+Hp: increases satiated section by 1 pip. direction input determines which section (overstuffed and ravenous) gives up 1 pip to satiated section.
Mp+Hp: increases overstuffed section by 2 pips.

Reason: Gives player choice to decide which mode they want to remain in the most.

Contact lens:
input shortcut (323) can be used to avoid misinputs with Retina reflector.
input changed to 623 + KK as an alternative.

Retina reflector:
it has full invul. against beams.
depending on the punch button used to hit retina reflector, it can launch varying # of eyeballs at different angles (S.hp is the only normal to launch all of them straight at the opponent).

Reason: better utilization of the eyes for pressure while making it consistent agianst beams. Counterplay will have to deal with eyeballs sticking to them.

taunt: input is changed to quarter circle motions and throw input. there are 2 versions.
QCB Lp+Lk: uses umbrella's default taunt to drain hunger meter. turns feeding time and tongue twister into hitgrabs (goes away if used until the taunt is used again).
QCF Lp+Lk: uses umbrella's intro pose that feeds hungern, increasing the hunger meter by 1 pip per ice cream consumed. increases armor hits for overstuffed SnS and Rush by 2 hits (goes away on contact until the taunt is used again)
Both versions can be held indefinetely like umbrella's current taunt.

Reason: Revolves around managing hunger manually by increasing/decreasing it.

PS: Not all of these changes should be implemented, as I have failed to see the core issues of these characters listed. It's still interesting to look over for any inspiring thoughts, however.
 
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Reactions: Triviality and 05mario
HellCofer180 you are still posting full character reworks with vague reasons that aren't even uncommonly listed as issues with the characters. Stop suggesting things that sound cool on paper for game balance. Beowulf taunt has never needed invulnerability on hype gain or expenditure, Elizas blood mechanic was already reworked into something much better than Sehkmet mode was before and no amount of trying to make Umbrella's moves eat projectiles is going to make item drop falling on her head less of an issue.

Less is more.
 
Taterade said:
HellCofer180 you are still posting full character reworks with vague reasons that aren't even uncommonly listed as issues with the characters. Stop suggesting things that sound cool on paper for game balance. Beowulf taunt has never needed invulnerability on hype gain or expenditure, Elizas blood mechanic was already reworked into something much better than Sehkmet mode was before and no amount of trying to make Umbrella's moves eat projectiles is going to make item drop falling on her head less of an issue.

Less is more.
Yeah, I did fail to see their issues and just suggested things that did "sound cool on paper." I have tried to alleviate it by editing the suggestions to make them reasonable but my posts are still in the zone of sounding cool on paper. I'll post suggestions that could actually balance them and not just buff them to possibly absurd degrees and cause ramifications on game balance as a whole from now on, I hope.
 
Taterade said:
HellCofer180 you are still posting full character reworks with vague reasons that aren't even uncommonly listed as issues with the characters. Stop suggesting things that sound cool on paper for game balance. Beowulf taunt has never needed invulnerability on hype gain or expenditure, Elizas blood mechanic was already reworked into something much better than Sehkmet mode was before and no amount of trying to make Umbrella's moves eat projectiles is going to make item drop falling on her head less of an issue.

Less is more.
Agree w/some but the rest idk. Eliza i'm hoping to see more. And I think there's been great surprises in new things, like strive/any other fg. Maybe when things get down the line I'll add my perspective. I think just thinking about some of cofers ideas in general work. blood on c.hk hitting a projectile is actually kinda cool & rewards you for skill rather than just safely blocking. risk/reward that feels natural. Eliza getting sekh to fill in some holes I like, but the blood & stiff assist specials don't let her express herself imo.

silly jacko inspired idea. If you talked about blood itself doing something, maybe Eliza normals influence the blood & you can toss it at the opponent. Different normals arc & bounce the blood in different directions/speed. No blood autopickup, taunt to heal. Assist specials effect blood too. Throne could actually be good even though it needs more help. Personally id rather have a blood meter i can cashout with more enhanced specials/supers but we'll see.
 
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Dahlia ice is the most obvious thing that needs to be reworked. But I think it is important not to just remove armor break and call it good. Imo armor break should transfer to a different projectile (maybe railgun as that would be the most balanced and make it more desirable to use).

As for her other ammo choices:

As it stands now:
Normal shot: it's the normal shot. Drops on 2 character hits. Good all round tool
Shotgun: opponent move, damage, good mix tool
Railgun: long range poke, knockdown
Fire: double touch (on hit), ok mix tool but there are much better choices with the other shots.
Ice: opponent hold, armor break, multi hit, space control (obviously the best to load at the moment)
Lightning: space control, short opponent hold, multi hit, good mix tool

The only other change I think is necessary is the 2nd hit of fire -> don't disappear on hit. That way it would be more useful for trades and setups. (it is pretty useless now except for a few unique situations).

Nitpicks:
lightning and ice are still very similar, only differentiated by the longer hold time of ice and the air hold and non arch ability of lightning. This is ok but it would be nice if they were a bit more unique. They are both multi-hitting and used as space control and opponent hold. Ice being better for hold and lightning being better for space control because of its slow moving nature and non-arch. So maybe remove the multi hit from ice and give it something else like when it hits the ground it makes a small barrier, maybe 2 ice shots makes the barrier bigger-- something like that that makes it truly stand on its own. Lightning could wall bounce off the ground and celling traveling in a straight line. it would be interesting to play around witch such ideas in alpha/beta. It also would be nice if normal shot didn't drop on two characters.

With the changes I mentioned:
Normal shot: it's the normal shot.-- (added doesn't drop with 2 characters)
Shotgun: opponent move, damage
Railgun: long range poke, knockdown, armor break -- (added armor break)
Fire: double touch (on hit), after first hit projectile doesn't disappear on player hit. -- (added after first hit projectile doesn't disappear on player hit)
Ice: opponent hold, ice wall -- (removed multi-hit, removed armor break, added "ice wall")
Lightning: space control, wall, ground celling bounce, short opponent hold, multi hit-- (added ground, celling bounce)

This seems a bit more balanced keeping every shot unique and useful with no shot being outstanding compared to the others. Lightning may be a bit more favorable but that could be balanced with damage reduction, and to be fair I don't know if ice-wall is a good idea or not but I think ice would need something else if armor break and multi-hit are removed.

(I still think there should be a way to choose shots with normal reload as discussed in the dahlia beta thread) -- I honestly never use mp/hp reload as it only leads to problems with combos-- instead I just use last call mid combo and mix.
 
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