Big band buff

[Yummy Bubbles]

So I dunno if I'm the only one here who thinks so, but honestly I think big band deserves some buffs. A lot of people I've seen running big band either run him solo so that his lack of combo potential without resets doesn't mean a total loss in damage, or run him anchor because of his supers raw damage. Eliza coming out as she is, even if her damage gets buffed is going to made big band as a big body character just look horrible. I love big band, but I'd like to see him be able to do so much more. So I came up with a few random ideas without breaking him as a character, and I'd like to hear some feedback.

1) L giant step wouldn't use sound stun, rather on hit it'd leave BB +9 so it can link to his lights, and +0 on block so it's not an unsafe mixup.

2) more armor on brass knuckles and A-train, lights get 1 hit, medium 2 hits, heavys 3 hit. this'll help prevent a-train and brass knuckles being easily blown up by most all multi-hit attacks, and it'd at least buff up his ground grab and poke so that they're usable for more than mind games.

3) emergency escape gets 1 hit of SA, as it is now, unless the other person is most of the screen away, with the almost 20 recovery frames, every time I use it at close-mid range it gets blown up.

4) L beat extends invincibility could stay as it is, M beat extend would get grab invuln until the first hitbox on the side and hit invuln until the complete hitbox, and L gets complete invuln until the completed hitbox. OR, just let add the shake at the end regardless of hit/block/whiff, it'd extend the attack enough that if someone went to punish you could cancel in SSJ (this idea came from napalm pillar into egrets roll out, into egret cancel), the idea is to make hit DP somewhat safe at the cost of a meter.

5) increase the hitbox on M and H A-train on the back end by adding 15-20(ish) pixels back and up.

and lastly probably the most possibly OP

6) make his H A-train unblockable, basically at that range you're guessing they're gonna stay in the air, if they just fall it'll whiff and they can punish.

I understand this is partially me wishing he was just better as a character and having more to work with, and that it's most likely that none of this will happen, but I'd like to hear your guys opinion nonetheless ^_^

 

[Cynical]

Wow, that's ridiculous.

 

[Yummy Bubbles]

why is any of that ridiculous?

 

[Rynozilla]

Big Band? Buffed? Brb, gonna go cry over in that corner

 

[Cynical]

why is any of that ridiculous?

Well, one step at a time...

1: Yeah, the character with the best damage in the game should have the ability to end blockstrings with a mixup that leaves him at +0 for another low-throw that, if guessed correctly, leads to another high-low. Compared to Bella, who if she guesses wrong on a command grab at the end of a block string (excellabella vs. Drop/MGR is her only mixup at the end of a blockstring), eats a full combo. And gets much less reward if she's right. And the bit about it not using his soundstun so you can get EVEN MORE damage on it is priceless.

2: His moves already have a ton of armor, and saying "I want him to not have to play mind games!" in a fighting game is absurd.

4: Why the HELL should someone not be able to punish a DP if they guessed correctly on it?!?! Hell, Band's is better than most, since it's still basically "safe" if it catches an assist but not the point!

5. A-Train is already amazing; it's not supposed to be a "you can never jump, ever" move. Yes, you can get into a "dead spot" for it if he just throws it out there; this isn't unintentional.

6. This is probably the best one. Yeah, Band should always get a free combo on every incoming character!

 

[Zidiane]

Don't know the much about big band, but these suggestions are just too much.

His armor used to be lights got one hit of armor, mediums got 2, and heavies got 3. It was stupid. You couldn't knock him out if it without tripping or grabbing him unless you had multi hit moves. It was too good an assist, too.

Emergency escape should not have armor. It just shouldnt. Use it to fake people out, or for combos and resets. I don't know what you are using it for, but I think you're doing it wrong.

Skipped 4 and 5, but... If his anti air grab was unblockable, he could get you in the corner and just like s.lk, s.mk, grab, and just like repeat the setup and unless they had a mash able air super they would have no way of escaping.

 

[Yummy Bubbles]

Well, one step at a time...

1: Yeah, the character with the best damage in the game should have the ability to end blockstrings with a mixup that leaves him at +0 for another low-throw that, if guessed correctly, leads to another high-low. Compared to Bella, who if she guesses wrong on a command grab at the end of a block string (excellabella vs. Drop/MGR is her only mixup at the end of a blockstring), eats a full combo. And gets much less reward if she's right. And the bit about it not using his soundstun so you can get EVEN MORE damage on it is priceless.

2: His moves already have a ton of armor, and saying "I want him to not have to play mind games!" in a fighting game is absurd.

4: Why the HELL should someone not be able to punish a DP if they guessed correctly on it?!?! Hell, Band's is better than most, since it's still basically "safe" if it catches an assist but not the point!

5. A-Train is already amazing; it's not supposed to be a "you can never jump, ever" move. Yes, you can get into a "dead spot" for it if he just throws it out there; this isn't unintentional.

6. This is probably the best one. Yeah, Band should always get a free combo on every incoming character!

1) bella, parasoul, and fukua all have overheads that end +0 or better, and their mixup isn't considered OP. Also, it's LITERALLY his only overhead option without a slow, hefty and obvious jump first.

2) maybe 3 hits of SA is a bit excessive, but lets consider his lack of mobility, and the fact that with 25 frames of recovery on block you can stun him off his arm and get an easy combo on whiff. it's not exactly a hard move to see coming, and the startup is long enough to smack him out've at close range. lastly, I've seen BELLA out-armor BB on her run cycle with invincibility on the crossup to kanchou.

4) his DP is the only DP in the game the doesn't have invincibility for the duration of the attack, if you look at it in training mode there's a hitbox on the side, from that one on to the complete hitbox he has nothing, so it's anti-air capabilities are ruined just because why not.

5) valentine and filia can easily dash over even at perfect M a-train range because of how far BB himself travels during this time, meaning that as anything but a ranged poke or a guess (some people call them reads), it's useless because of recovery. a block A-train should always be punishable, but air dashing over from have a screen away just because BB will move farther while using it means that you have to guess they're going for the dash instead of being able to react to it.

6) you've got a point, but like I said, probably most op. didn't think of the incoming character thing. if not for this seeming weird I'd go back and take that one out.

All in all, if someone is above and slightly near big band, he can do little more than try to parry or block, and part of that is because all of his aerial attacks are aimed downward, so they'll often miss double-jumps or air dashes just because of their angle.

All the Suggestions I've put forth are nothing more than mechanics other characters already have, big band in my opinion is the easiest to block and retaliate against solo because his blockstrings are obvious and his options are severely limited, and the only standing mixup he has that's decently fast, immediately cuts his combo, and therefore hurt damage and meter gain potential by quite a bit.

 

[skull person]

All in all, if someone is above and slightly near big band, he can do little more than try to parry or block, and part of that is because all of his aerial attacks are aimed downward, so they'll often miss double-jumps or air dashes just because of their angle.

Just so you know L Beat extend is one of the best Anti-Airs ever.
It's fast, invincible, and leads to a full combo and all the mix up potential that comes along with it.

valentine and filia can easily dash over even at perfect M a-train range because of how far BB himself travels during this time

Spoiler

Just look at this hitbox, even if one pixel of their legs touch it, they're getting grabbed.
Also it is unblockable if they are traveling upwards.
If you're missing this thing because they dash over your head it's not 'perfect M a-train range'
Also if they're in that area then just bait their air attack and do L Beat Extend.
If they're dashing over you and you notice that /after/ you've done M A Train you can cancel into SSJ while they're in air dash animation too.

Of all areas Big Band could use a helping hand in I don't think any of the things listed would really help him where it would count, and they're pretty unreasonable?

 

[Yummy Bubbles]

L beat extend has 8 frames of startup, startup is only counted until the first hitbox comes out, it's 8 frames to his SIDE hitbox not the overhead. once the side hitbox has come out, it's still has to continue up until the overhead hitbox comes out. It takes 13 frames for the overhead hitbox to come out. 13-8=5 frames of pure vulnverability. so lets say someone's coming in with painwheels j.mp, beat extend loses on reaction EASILY. even if you predict it, it's still likely to lose due to painwheels hitbox being far outside her hurtbox, also because good painwheels knowing the hitbox are going to space properly and she'll be outside BB's beat extend hitbox until the attack is almost out. or we could compare it to her j.lp, it just straight loses to that.

Honestly, I'd think BB's current setup was great, if his mobility options weren't limited to slow and obvious, or risky as HELL and fast because you're using mechanics of his attacks to float/tech over there, and even then it's still pretty slow comparatively.

 

[Icky]

So I dunno if I'm the only one here who thinks so, but honestly I think big band deserves some buffs. A lot of people I've seen running big band either run him solo so that his lack of combo potential without resets doesn't mean a total loss in damage

Didn't read anything else since I'm on my way to bed. His combos do some of the most damage in the game, his resets are so good and simple that if you aren't using them then you simply haven't spent more than 10 minutes of research/time in training mode with him.

He doesn't need a buff in either of these areas even slightly.

 

[Flotilla]

1) L giant step wouldn't use sound stun, rather on hit it'd leave BB +9 so it can link to his lights, and +0 on block so it's not an unsafe mixup.

It can be made safe with assists, FYI. And while it might be cool if L Giant Step were made semi-safe on block like L Brass (for poor solo bastards like yours truly), +0 is excessive. If it were +0, I could just L, M, H, L Giant Step and try again... or even worse, just alternate between c.LK and L Giant Step at my braindead leisure. L Brass is sorta safe but forces you to be on the defensive since it's -6, your "punishment" for a predictable offense. If L Giant Step's recovery were to ever be lessened, I think it should use L Brass' recovery as a base.

2) more armor on brass knuckles and A-train, lights get 1 hit, medium 2 hits, heavys 3 hit. this'll help prevent a-train and brass knuckles being easily blown up by most all multi-hit attacks, and it'd at least buff up his ground grab and poke so that they're usable for more than mind games.

Were you not around for beta Big Band? L Brass used to have a hit of armor, and that alone made it incredibly braindead since it had a fast startup and a SAFE recovery. I could just L brass all day since its startup beat sweeps and most multihit moves and I could cancel into super if they tried anything fancy.

Here, watch this video from 5 months ago of me playing Big Band very badly and winning anyways because L Brass had one hit of armor.

3) emergency escape gets 1 hit of SA, as it is now, unless the other person is most of the screen away, with the almost 20 recovery frames, every time I use it at close-mid range it gets blown up.

Read above to see why this is a dumb idea. Same basic principle, only applied to movement instead of offense. Giving Big Band what is essentially an armored dash so he can glide around the stage like a goofball ignoring hazards is just silly.

4) L beat extends invincibility could stay as it is, M beat extend would get grab invuln until the first hitbox on the side and hit invuln until the complete hitbox, and L gets complete invuln until the completed hitbox. OR, just let add the shake at the end regardless of hit/block/whiff, it'd extend the attack enough that if someone went to punish you could cancel in SSJ (this idea came from napalm pillar into egrets roll out, into egret cancel), the idea is to make hit DP somewhat safe at the cost of a meter.

Big Band's Beat Extend is one of the most powerful reversals in the game already. It has an ENORMOUS hitbox, functions as an effective antiair, can be comboed off of without meter, and is hit-invincible to various lengths. And now you want to make it safe?! Are you nuts?

6) make his H A-train unblockable, basically at that range you're guessing they're gonna stay in the air, if they just fall it'll whiff and they can punish.

Yes, it looks like you *are* nuts. A-Train is a tool to be used for reads against your opponent's jumping habits, not to make the sky lava and have "unblockable-on-incoming"s. This is probably one of the worst sincere buff suggestions I've read, and alongside your former buff asking for 3 hits of armor on H A-Train, you pretty much want the game to be tailored so that only Big Band can jump. Heck no.

 

[skull person]

L beat extend has 8 frames of startup, startup is only counted until the first hitbox comes out, it's 8 frames to his SIDE hitbox not the overhead. once the side hitbox has come out, it's still has to continue up until the overhead hitbox comes out. It takes 13 frames for the overhead hitbox to come out.

Nine frames, he's invincible even during the first active frames, what are you going on about.
This is not a bad move.
Meterless reversal and anti air into full combo. No it's not allowed to be safe.

It does not lose 'easy'
Blue = Hit Invincible

 

[Fedora_Ninja]

Hey look, MikeZ was viewing this thread. Assuming that lack of reply = NO :D

 

[sketchspace]

I support any and all Big Band buffs

I also play Big Band

 

[Mike_Z]

Hey look, MikeZ was viewing this thread. Assuming that lack of reply = NO :D

Or maybe that I was typing a reply that took more thought than a snarky one. :^)

6) Nothing in the game that hits vs air is straight-up unblockable, because it would lead to loops that most (if not all) characters could not escape. Even Grab Bag is techable for that reason. Screw incoming mixups, just imagine corner cr.LK->cr.HP->Excellabella, cr.LK->cr.HP, wait, unblockable first-frame-of-recovery Excellabella reset, repeat till dead. So, nope. (Only one move for the remaining characters will even have the most REMOTE possibility of being this way, because of probable meter cost and lack of followups.)

5) I dunno about increasing the hitbox, but on my list is either having him stop sliding as soon as he starts the grab part or speeding up the grab part by 2-4f. This is the most reasonable suggestion on the list. [edit] And we can try it in the Beta.

4) Beat Extend (especially L) is ridiculously good as an antiair or a read, and gives you a full combo followup as well as ridiculously easy mixups off it. If it didn't have the startup 2f vulnerability it would qualify as pretty broken. Plenty of other DPs are not invincible at startup, like M Bomber. Beat Extend is plenty good for what it's for, which is not a no-thought antiair.

3) I don't think Emergency Break needs to be any better, in fact it got made longer several times because of HOW good it was when it was shorter, but this is the 3rd-most-reasonable suggestion here. Though giving it armor off an L would be bad in any case.

2) H A-Train already had 3 hits of armor for a long time, like right up until release, so this is not ENTIRELY unreasonable...but giving him back any armor on Ls is. That was beyond dumb. 3 hits of armor on H Train is the 2nd-most-reasonable thing here, but still not all that reasonable.

1) No way in hell. L Step is -10 and reaches far enough that you can make it completely unpunishable on block, hits overhead, combos off c.LK, and is pretty darn fast. It also has no vulnerable box so you can use it to bait DPs, etc. It will not be +0.

 

[Yummy Bubbles]

well 1/6 being even considered by mike z made this worth my time.

As for beat extend, it's still vulnerable before the anti-air portion if they're above the initial hitbox, but with it's speed I can adjust with PBGC/better timing. Note: when I say anti-air, I'm talking about above big band, not just off the ground. If you want I can post a video.

Either way, Thanks mike z ^_^

 

[Mike_Z]

As for beat extend

Yes, I know, I play the character. :^) S'why I think it's fine.

 

[Cynical]

1) bella, parasoul, and fukua all have overheads that end +0 or better, and their mixup isn't considered OP. Also, it's LITERALLY his only overhead option without a slow, hefty and obvious jump first.

Only Fukua does. Para's overheads are very minus on block (one of them can be chained out of, though); Bella's s.HK should never hit anyone who is blocking, since it takes like 5 seconds to start up. Fukua's isn't a tight blockstring, unlike Band; you can jab her out of it.

4) his DP is the only DP in the game the doesn't have invincibility for the duration of the attack, if you look at it in training mode there's a hitbox on the side, from that one on to the complete hitbox he has nothing, so it's anti-air capabilities are ruined just because why not.

Not true; Fiber Upper doesn't have any invulnerability during the active frames even with head on. Also, I'm pretty sure that H Extend is completely invulnerable (I remember looking at this with @Kit Ballard during locals a month or so ago).

 

[Yummy Bubbles]

cynical:
1) parasoul can easily keep you in blockstun during her slow overhead <-s.hk, and cancel that into napalm shot L, which unless you PBGC is completely safe and ends +2. bellas even if you block leaves her -3, but unless you're using an instant super, the fastest lights in the game are about 4-5 frames (haven't checked every single light), meaning if they just hold back, they can still block. as for fukua, well, it's ranged and easily leads into a combo, 'nuff said.

4) fiber upercut, up-do, napalm pillar, devil horns, and hornet bomber, all leave the body completely invulnerable until the first hitbox which covers their ENTIRE body vs, just the sides. big bands beat extend is the only DP which leaves him vulnerable overhead DURING the attack. he's not vulnerable during the entire animation, but unless it's time to perfectly coincide with their attack hitting you and it DOESN"T hit multiple times, then if they're overhead and not in front of you, free combo. That's the point I was trying to make. I would say that fiber uppercut is extremely punishable, but even on whiff it can be used to move ms. fortune around keeping her relatively safe unless you're at the right height or using a counter-DP/whatever.

Note: you can combo out of ALL of the other DP's except hornet bomber and squigglys shoryuken (to me knowledge) without an assist, although up-do does require 1 meter, but as good filia's basically use their entire arsenal in every combo, she can earn that meter back pretty quick.

PS: check the invuln on BB's beat extend again, none of his beat extends are completely invuln through the overhead, and H beat extend is the only one that has ANY true invulnerability, which is unlike any of the other DP's seeing as all versions of all other characters DP's are completely invuln during startup. you can literally walk up to BB and grab him out of beat extend L and M (cerebella's super happy about this).

 

[Stuff]

fortune is vulnerable after the first hit of H fiber (which only gets mostly the ground) just like beat extend. L and M fiber are all vulnerable by the first active frame.

Horns misses so who cares.

I dunno about bomber or pillar or "up-do" (which is just "updo" by the way)


Big Band doesn't need to be invuln throughout all of beat extend becuse his dps are so fast M also has more hit invuln (and is also invuln frame ONE) and H only adds full invuln but less invuln frames.
I honestly don't think Big Band doesn't need buffs even if he has a little more trouble with others, he's still a pretty great character.

I dunno what you mean by just the sides bb is invuln full body.

You should really look at the hitbox compendiums. <--all you gotta do is click that and then you'll see lot's of dps are similar.